Episode 152-New Training Guidelines
Also Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 152

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

carry permit, new jersey, gun, carry, permit, firearm, state, requirements, training, law, court, issued, core competency, ohio, required, constitutional carry, instructor, police, abiding citizens, guns

SPEAKERS

Speaker 3, Evan Nappen

Evan Nappen 00:00

Hi, I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. I have some really exciting news we have reached a milestone in New Jersey. We have been able, via negotiations with the Attorney General, we being your state association, the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs, my colleague and friend, Dan Schmutter, who is also excellent attorney that is handling the federal litigation, challenging the Carry Killer, anti-Civil Rights bill, and myself. We were able to get the excessive training requirements seriously changed, and I’m going to discuss them in detail. And the use of farce, which is really the Use of Force manual, seriously changed. We now have in New Jersey a carry permit that is obtainable by any law-abiding citizen who has core competency. That’s right, core competency. The progress here is just outstanding.

Evan Nappen 01:45

The negotiations that were very intense and thorough went at the so-called new training requirements that were promulgated by the State Police pursuant to the statute. They essentially required law-abiding citizens applying for a carry permit to demonstrate skills equivalent to veteran police officers. This course, that was mandated by the State Police as the new qualifications, was known as the HQC2-modified, which was essentially the same course utilized for retired law enforcement. It required that the average citizen demonstrate shooting proficiency with timed scoring at a 25-yard distance. I mean, we’re talking 75 feet. What self-defense situation is a civilian, is a citizen, that is simply interested in self-defense shooting somebody at 75 feet? I guess anything’s possible. But that should hardly be a requirement to get a carry permit.

Evan Nappen 03:12

It required various tactical maneuvers, such as magazine change, timed fire, and week-hand shooting and kneeling, and all these tactical skills. You had to have that timed fire. All these things were, and more, were eliminated. A new, new training requirement has now been put forward by the State Police as the official training requirement for carry permit holders. Not only did these incredible modifications get done, but also, they got done without the need for litigating. Folks, we could be spending hundreds of 1000s of dollars trying to litigate this, and it taking 2, 3, 4 years to go through the courts. Instead, we were able to get training requirements that consists of appropriate training that simply deal with safely hitting a target and safe gun handling. We are now at a milestone when it comes to getting a carry permit in New Jersey, something that was unthinkable just a short while ago. Page – 2 – of 11

Evan Nappen 04:40

Now we have the permit. Of course, the next steps are to expand the places where we can actually carry a gun to defend ourselves and that’s where the litigation is taking place, over the other parts of the bill. But it begins with individuals being able to at least get the carry permit. Under that required course, that was the equivalent of law enforcement training, average citizens were failing at a 40% ratio, folks. That’s my understanding – 40%. Because of the rigorous tactical skills that this required which were way beyond core competency. Things that, you know, law enforcement, trained professional law enforcement, may need in taking down suspects and surrounding buildings and doing various law enforcement operations. All the things a law-abiding citizen will not ever be engaging in. Simply needing a permit for self-defense. It was obstructive, that’s the word. The training requirements were obstructive.

Evan Nappen 06:03

Now, they are no longer obstructive. Yes, it is something that we still need to do, and I can understand people saying, why should we have to take any training? I get that, I get that. But what we have now is part of an important path that New Jersey has just started upon. And that is a path to greater gun liberty. Second Amendment, liberty. Second Amendment freedom. We are not going to get all our rights back, and we’re not going to get Constitutional carry, permit less carry, in New Jersey with a snap of fingers. It isn’t going to happen. Every state, with the exception of Vermont which has had Constitutional carry basically forever, has had to go through its evolutionary period. And now New Jersey is embarking on that very thing.

Evan Nappen 07:02

When you look at the history of how the ability to carry for self-defense has progressed, in the states that eventually ended up with Constitutional carry, we are now well along that path. I mean, if you take a look, for example, before we get into the details of New Jersey, and what these requirements are, you can look at other states. A great example is Ohio. Did you know that Ohio prohibited carrying concealed weapons back in 1859? Believe it or not. And in 2004, 19 years ago, Ohio enacted its first permit system for concealed carry, what was essentially their first shall issue, carry license. They were following the trend that had started in the 1980s.

Evan Nappen 08:06

The modern carry movement, the modern movement that started in Florida, which was spearheaded by Marion Hammer of Unified Sportsmen of Florida, and that set the pace for state after state to enact the shall issue permit for carry, which New Jersey did not do. A handful of holdout States still had the requirement of “justifiable need”, which was the court engineered way of stopping law-abiding citizens from being able to carry by essentially requiring a showing of need, that was so extreme that you had to show you needed to use deadly force before you needed to use deadly force. Essentially, if you’ve just been shot and killed, you then qualified for a carry license in New Jersey. That system barred law-abiding citizens from being able to defend themselves and kept law-abiding citizens as victims and not defenders.

Evan Nappen 09:18 Page – 3 – of 11

Well, Ohio had that same prohibition until 2004, when they finally enacted their carry permit system. Then in 2006, they passed preemption, stopping local jurisdictions from passing their own patchwork quilt of gun laws. In 2008, Ohio expanded the right to use deadly force to defend a home or a vehicle. In 2011, Ohio allowed concealed carry permit holders to carry guns into bars and restaurants, shopping malls, museums, and other places. So, they had sensitive places that were later repealed in 2011. In 2012, Ohio established gun owners where they could carry firearms in vehicles and parking facilities.

Evan Nappen 10:17

In 2014, 10 years after the initiation of their shall issue permit system, Ohio reduced the required training hours to get a permit to carry from 12 hours to eight. They reduced the training hours, and they expanded the reciprocity of carry permits. They also eliminated by the way in 2014, as well, their prohibition on semi-automatic firearms that fire 31 or more cartridges without reloading and removed them from the list of regulated dangerous weapons. In 2016, Ohio allowed carry permit holders to carry guns on college campuses, in daycare centers, in parts of airports and other places. It stopped property owners from banning carry permit holders from keeping their firearms in their vehicles.

Evan Nappen 11:32

Then in 2018, Ohio changed the burden of proof in self-defense cases so that the prosecution, instead of the accused, has to prove. This aligned Ohio with 49 other states. Then in 2021, Governor DeWine signed a “Stand Your Ground” bill into law, allowing Ohioans to have stand your ground, which New Jersey does not have yet. And in 2022, folks, DeWine signed a bill, completely eliminating the need for the eight-hour training course and to have a background check for a permit to carry. In fact, in 2022, Ohio got Constitutional carry. So, folks, Ohio evolved, evolved to firearm freedom and evolved to Constitutional carry. Evolved to expanding the rights. How did this happen? It happened because the incremental gains kept taking place. And that’s what we have started upon this path in New Jersey.

Evan Nappen 12:52

We have made tremendous progress, tremendous progress, to a point now, where we have a true shall issue carry permit. The basis, as to whether you get a carry permit or not, the statutory criteria is exactly the same in terms of disqualifiers as the criteria to get a New Jersey Firearms Purchaser ID Card or a New Jersey pistol purchase permit. It is N.J.S. 2C:58-3 disqualifiers. If you qualify to get a New Jersey Firearms Purchaser ID Card or pistol purchase permit, then you are qualified to get a carry permit. And to get a carry permit, the only things more that are required are to have the training course that has now been greatly simplified and focused on core competency. Take the online instruction and be taught the use of force pursuant to the Use of Force manual which has been greatly edited and now focuses on the average citizen wanting to defend themselves. You have your four witnesses. And you are there getting your shall issue permit.

Evan Nappen 14:20

And you see this is all part of our march to liberty, folks. This is the long game and the Second Amendment advocates that fight for your rights through your state association, the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs are accomplishing that for you. Now you can get this carry permit. Something that was unthinkable 10 years ago. You can get a shall issue permit in New Jersey. As we continue on this path, the unthinkable will happen in New Jersey yet again. We, too, will get Page – 4 – of 11

Constitutional carry, as more and more individuals carry with permits, as the state adjusts to individuals carrying that are licensed and law-abiding, as individuals save themselves from violent crime, violent criminals, vicious assaults, rapes, etc., because they were law-abiding citizens that carried. You see, this all goes into the picture of individuals defending themselves successfully. Where good guys with guns become the solution to the crime problem. We are on that path.

Evan Nappen 15:44

This milestone of getting the training requirements reduced to a core competency with appropriate training, focused on safely hitting targets and safe gun handling, without all the other barriers and obstacles and incredible blocks that were put in by way of training requirements that was just an absurdity, have been removed. So, keep in mind, even though we still have to do these things, the incredible progress that we’ve made, and that this is on a march toward greater and greater freedom. We lost our rights incrementally over the years and that’s how we will gain them back. As much as I’d love to snap my fingers like Thanos and make us have no gun laws and Constitutional carry, that’s not reality. The reality that has been demonstrated through the history of all these other states that have finally reached Constitutional carry is the incremental gains and successes. We keep gaining yardage, and the other side is losing yardage. Keep that in mind. This is great news.

Evan Nappen 17:23

Let me talk to you about what these actual requirements are and who needs to do the new requirements even if you already have a carry permit. So, first of all, what has been changed? What important things got changed? Well, let me tell you specifically. New Jersey eliminated any testing requirements that were in the other so-called new training requirements for kneeling, for one handed shooting, for timed fire, for retention drills. Additionally, New Jersey completely eliminated any demonstration of shooting proficiency at 25 yards. They extended the deadline for current permit holders to requalify from October 1. Remember, just coming up now, really quick, was the deadline for you to re qualify under the new extreme training requirements. Well, that has now been changed. Not only do you not have to meet those extreme training requirements with all those absurd requirements I just told you, but the deadline has been extended to December 31 to meet the new new training requirements. So, you’ve gotten a reprieve. You’ve been given a greater ability here to get your new certification with focus on what needs to be focused on – core competency.

Evan Nappen 19:00

Now in the promulgation of these new training requirements, the New Jersey Attorney General put out a memorandum (dated September 15, 2023), and this memorandum had some very interesting things in it that I want to review with you. First of all, the new, new training requirements, which I’m going to call from now by their name, CCARE. I’m not going to call it the new new anymore. They’re called CCARE, which stands for “Civilian Carry Assessment and Range Evaluation”. A nice anacronym there, CCARE. So, CCARE is what we have to do now to get a carry permit. Prior to that, the training requirements were the HQC2-modified, which are no longer required for citizens to get a carry permit. If you did those, then it still is going to count for your qualification. But nonetheless, that’s been changed. So, now citizens do CCARE.

Evan Nappen 20:18 Page – 5 – of 11

CCARE protocol in a nutshell is you shoot a minimum of 50 scored rounds, 50 rounds, and you need a minimum passage score of 80% using an FBI type Q target. Now the FBI Q target is one of those tombstone style targets that have a square on the top that arguably could be considered a person’s head. Then it has the so-called body, but it’s like a tombstone shape of a body that has that top part. I’m sure you’ve seen these targets. They’re essentially person size, but they don’t depict a person. But that’s how large this target is. It is the Q targets that’s used for training purposes. You simply must hit that Q target. It doesn’t have to be centered, doesn’t have to be 10 ring. It doesn’t have to be anything like that. You just have to make sure you are hitting anywhere on that target.

Evan Nappen 21:33

You have to shoot 10 rounds at the three-yard line, 10 rounds at three yards, folks. Then you shoot 10 rounds that five yards, then you shoot 10 rounds at seven yards, then 10 rounds at 10 yards and 10 rounds at 15 yards. You’ve now fired 50 Shots. As long as 40 of those 50 shots hit the target at any combination of those range firings, you will have demonstrated core competency for purposes of the new qualification. Now, in addition to that shooting competency, you also must demonstrate safe holstering and unholster during the shooting course. That has to include safely drawing your handgun from a secured holster before firing each of the required distances and reholstering after completing the round. In other words, you’re going to take the gun out of your holster in a safe manner. There’s no timing to it. There’s no speed required. Take your time. Take the gun out of your holster carefully and safely. Fire 10 rounds and then reholster safely and carefully. That’s it. No kneeling, no weak hand, no timed fire. Just safely holster and reholster while firing each round of the five rounds in which you shoot 10 shots.

Evan Nappen 23:41

During that time, you must demonstrate proficient and safe reloading. So, if you have a revolver, you’re going to safely reload your revolver, probably using speed loaders if you have them. Or you can, of course, still do it by hand. There’s no time here involved. If you have a semi- automatic pistol, you’re going to swap out your mags. You’re going to do it carefully, safely. Again, no timed fire here. Just demonstrate safe reloading, demonstrate safe holstering and get those 40 shots on the paper. That is the extent and does in fact demonstrate core competency.

Evan Nappen 24:36

If you want to go beyond that, if you want tactical training, if you want to do all these various exercises and test yourself by taking more and more courses of advanced skills, by all means do so. But it should not be something required of everybody so that individuals can protect themselves. If you have the core skills, then that is good enough. If you want to practice and expand your knowledge and expand your skills, by all means, pursue that with the great army of instructors that exist in New Jersey. There are excellent courses that can do that very thing. But this testing is no longer a bar or a barrier to getting a carry permit. And that is really, really an amazing advance here that we have made, an amazing advance.

Evan Nappen 25:44

Now, additionally, I want to talk about who needs to requalify, because there’s been a number of things stated. I see things on the internet that are incorrect. Let me be clear, and this is directly from the State Page – 6 – of 11

Police memorandum. They, in fact, got it right, I’m happy to say. I want to thank the Attorney General for working with the Association and with gun owners to accomplish something reasonable like this, in this current political climate, working to achieve the modifications. This is now the second time that we’ve been able to address serious gun law problems that have occurred. Remember the first one with the No Serial Number (NSN) gun debacle, banning millions of guns. We got that straightened out, too, by working with the Attorney General, and we made progress there, saving millions of guns. And here, we’ve done the same with carry.

Evan Nappen 26:55

Here are the individuals that need to requalify. So, let’s say you already got your carry permit, and you’re saying to yourself, hey, do I need to requalify under the new CCARE standards? Here are the folks that need to. Individuals who have a carry permit, and they were issued their carry permit prior to July 1, 2023. So, if you obtained your carry permit prior to July 1, 2023, you’re going to need to requalify. If you got it after July 1, 2023, you don’t need to requalify. But, when you apply for your renewal, you will have to take the new CCARE course to qualify for your renewal.

Evan Nappen 28:06

Now, if you received your carry permit prior to July 1, (2023) but after what would be December of 2021, if you received your carry permit after December 21, 2021, and before July 1, (2023), you are going to have to do the recertification of the new standard, CCARE. Now some people are saying that that is unfair because they already qualified when their permit was issued. So, why do I have to qualify again? I can understand that argument. I absolutely get it. It seems like hey, I qualified. Why do I have to requalify under the new standard when I already qualified prior? It seems wrong. Well, without debating whether it’s right or wrong for people that have already qualified, the fact is that by taking the CCARE now, you are not required to recertify on renewal of your carry permit. This is specifically stated in the Attorney General’s release (dated September 15, 2023). So, if your license expires within two years, you’re not required to redo the training for your renewal once you’ve done the CCARE. What it boils down to is you are simply being required to do the CCARE a little sooner. You would have had to do it anyway when you applied for your renewal. So, look, you’re going to have to do this either later or now. If you get it done now, you don’t have to do it later on for your renewal.

Evan Nappen 30:12

In the long run, these requirements are a tremendous advantage for those who have not gotten a carry permit yet. You know a lot of folks were intimidated, and they felt hesitant to try to pass these extreme training requirements that existed prior to CCARE. As an example, I’ve been talking to a number of instructors and since they adopted the new CCARE requirements, they’ve had a tremendous increase in people signing up to do the CCARE courses. First time folks seeking carry permits now that it’s simply focused on core competency. That means we’re going to get more people carrying, more people out there that have a vested interest in our carry law remaining shall issue. And that is putting us on that path, as I talked about, to eventually achieving Constitutional carry as we get more and more people actually caring and not scared away by excessive requirements.

Evan Nappen 31:37 Page – 7 – of 11

The State Police certification, which you can see on the State Police website, is the “New Jersey Permit to Carry Safe Handling and Proficiency In The Use of Handguns Certification.” It’s this piece of paper that you will get when you do the CCARE, which shows you’ve done the new CCARE protocol, and is signed by the instructor. I want to read you the very bottom. There are two asterisks, two footnotes, on the Certification. One says “*Any requirement for classroom instruction and target training shall not be required for a renewal applicant who completed the instruction and training when obtaining a permit to carry a handgun issued within the previous two years.” So, they have put in writing that you get it done this time, and you have it.

Evan Nappen 32:38

Second is, “*Per N.J.S.A. 2C:58-4 permit to carry handguns, one permit shall be sufficient for all handguns owned by the holder thereof.” So, they even quoted the law, making it clear that once you qualify with whatever gun you qualify with, you can then carry any handgun, as long as it’s a legal handgun in New Jersey, that you wish. There is a separate document on the State Police website where you simply put the make, model, and serial number of the firearms that you may wish to carry. There is no requirement to certify with each and every gun. You do it once with one gun. Then you carry any handgun that you wish to carry which you put on that list.

Evan Nappen 33:36

This is a great achievement. It avoided years of litigation and hundreds of 1000s of dollars. It has now gotten us to a true “shall issue” without barriers of excessive training requirements. It has absolutely gained us in our march forward to eventually having Constitutional carry in New Jersey. It’s going to take time, and we have to be diligent and patient. We didn’t lose our rights quickly, and we’re not going to gain them back quickly. But we will gain them back. The point is that it’s gain after gain after gain. So, it is a happy time for us in New Jersey as advocates and those that believe in the right to self-defense. The right to not be a victim but to be a defender, and we are doing that very, very well.

Evan Nappen 34:53

I want to mention that the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs is also a sponsor of Gun Lawyer. I’m very proud to have the Association as a sponsor. They are there on the front lines, litigating, defending, getting serious, important changes into the laws and into the actual function of how we go about exercising our rights with more freedom and more liberty. As we’ve just discussed, this would not have happened without the efforts of the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs, the number one gun rights defender in New Jersey. You all need to be a member of the Association. It is critical. You can see the great work that Association does. Go to anjrpc.org and be part of the solution.

Speaker 3 35:58

For over 30 years, Attorney Evan Nappen has seen what rotten laws do to good people. That’s why he’s dedicated his life to fighting for the rights of America’s gun owners. A fearsome courtroom litigator fighting for rights, justice, and freedom. An unrelenting gun rights spokesman tearing away at anti-gun propaganda to expose the truth. Author of six bestselling books on gun rights including Nappen on Gun Law, a bright orange gun law Bible that sits atop the desk of virtually every lawyer, police chief, firearms dealer, and savvy gun owner. That’s what made Evan Nappen America’s Gun Lawyer. Gun laws are designed to make you a criminal. Don’t become the innocent victim of a vicious anti-gun legal system. Page – 8 – of 11

This is the guy you want on your side. Keep his name and number in your wallet, and hope you never have to use it. But if you live, work, or travel with a firearm, the deck is already stacked against you. You can find him on the web at EvanNappen.com or follow the link on the Gun Lawyer resource page. Evan Nappen – America’s Gun Lawyer.

Speaker 3 37:12

You’re listening to Gun Lawyer with Attorney Evan Nappen. Available wherever you get your favorite podcasts.

Evan Nappen 37:19

I am really glad that you are with us today. We are the number one podcast for gun rights as rated by Feedspot. They rate podcasts all over the world in different categories. I’m proud to say we’re number one, and the reason we’re number one is because of you, the listener. I’m happy to have that happening so that I can convey this kind of information, get the word out. Let folks know things that you’re not going to hear really anywhere else. And you know, one of the things that makes this possible is our great sponsors.

Evan Nappen 38:03

WeShoot is a target range in Lakewood. They’re centrally located right there in Ocean County, easy to get to from Monmouth County, Middlesex County. A great range with super people. Let me tell you, WeShoot is really dedicated to their training. They do the CCARE training that we’re talking about. You can get qualified there, and I would highly recommend it. They have a great staff, really great folks. But let me tell you something else that WeShoot does that I really, really like. This is something else to keep in mind. They don’t just train you, get you certified, help you carry, and then give you a pat on the back and say good luck. No, they stand by their students.

Evan Nappen 38:54

They stand by their students even if you ever have to use your firearm and go to court and let me tell you why. Because their instructors make sure that they note that they taught you and what they taught you and that you took their classes and took their courses, and this becomes an important technique in court should you ever have to be in court over a self-defense situation. If you use a firearm in self-defense, a lot of attorneys are going to want to get an expert witness in to talk about self-defense to demonstrate to the jury that you are justified under the law, etc. When you get an expert witness, then the State gets their expert witness, who will most likely say the opposite. Then you have a battle of the experts and that’s how it goes.

Evan Nappen 39:48

But that’s not how it works when you train and get your certification at WeShoot. Because WeShoot has trained you. WeShoot has taught you self-defense. WeShoot has gone over the core competency and Use of Force and all that. And do you know what that instructor is? That instructor is a material witness for you. What you understood when you had to use a gun in self-defense, and we can bring them in as a material witness, not an expert, mind you, but an actual witness, who was the one that taught you, what they taught you, why they taught you, what you learned, and how you did what you did. Then that instructor, as a witness for you, has the ability to turn those 12 jurors into that instructor’s new students. Page – 9 – of 11

In the court, as that instructor explains what was taught to you, that instructor is in fact explaining and teaching the jury. With that knowledge getting into your case by that presentation, of the jury understanding why you did what you did, and getting it from the witness that taught you, that is a tremendous edge should you ever be in that situation, having to defend yourself. So, consider that too, when considering your choice of a range for training. WeShoot stands by their students.

Evan Nappen 41:21

WeShoot has something really fun that they’re doing. I wanted to mention this because I’m actually going to be doing this as well. My wife heard about it, and she said, I want to do this and I’m like, absolutely, we’re going to go do this. They have what is called Blast-A-Bear. The Bear is a ballistic gelatin gummy bear that’s really large, and you get to blast this gelatin bear with firearms of your choice at the range. Just think how much fun that is. So, they’re doing that on October 11. Go to their website, weshootusa.com. You can learn all about Blast-A-Bear, sign up and have a great time. Great way to have a date with your loved one. Go have some fun with Blast-A-Bear, as well as get your top notch certification with excellent, friendly staff to get your carry permit at WeShoot.

Evan Nappen 42:32

I also want to take a moment and shamelessly plug my book which is New Jersey Gun Law – 25th Anniversary Edition. The Bible of New Jersey gun law. You can get it at EvanNappen.com. Go to my website, you’ll see the big orange book, click it and you can order your copy. It’s over 500 pages with over 120 topics all explained in question and answer explaining New Jersey gun law. And what’s even better is that I do updates. As soon as there is a law change, as soon as something is out there, within 24 hours of that, I have sent you an update. All you have to do is scan the QR code on the front of the book and subscribe for free to the Subscriber Portal. You will get an email alert and get the new update. You’ll also be able to go to the archives. We have now 11 updates there for you. As soon as you get the book, you can get all the updates. I just sent out an alert within 24 hours of the new training requirement changes, all the links, full explanation, changes to the books to the questions with the answers everything done. You’ve got it right away, for free. So, get the book, have the base book. It’s your best way to stay current and understand New Jersey gun laws.

Evan Nappen 43:57

Let me also mention something because I have some great letters, the Ask Evan letters, that I love to talk to you about. But even before that, there’s something really important you need to know when it comes to carrying. I’ve seen this and I see cases about this. It’s really, really critical. Never use your gun as a magic wand. That’s right. In other words, don’t go pulling your gun out to try to use it to stop whatever problem you think is going on. If you are justified in using deadly force, fine. Then you are going to use your firearm for that purpose. But to take it out and to use it as a demonstration of force without using force, ends up getting the law-abiding citizen in trouble.

Evan Nappen 44:53

Just again, just this week, I had a case where somebody was being seriously harassed by a person who they felt was threatening. And I get that. So, they drew their gun to intimidate and scare the person away, which did happen. But guess what? The person called the police. Police came and now they’re charged with aggravated assault, pointing a firearm, all that. Now the law-abiding citizen pays the price. Page – 10 – of 11

The problem is the magic wand. We see this also when you’re driving, road rage by some jerk in a 2000 pound, guided missile, we call a car, running you off the road, and you flash your gun through the window – back off, I’m armed. Next thing you know, he’s called the police, and you’re getting pulled over and charged with gun charges. I frequently see this happen with law-abiding citizens. Do not flash your gun. Do not use it as what I call a magic wand. It isn’t. And what happens is these other individuals will turn the tables on you, and you’ll be dealing with a charge on the brandishing, on the pointing, on the display of the firearm, etc. And it is not a good thing. So, keep that in mind. It’s just a tip. Don’t draw your firearm until you actually are justified in using it. If you’re not, then keep it tucked away and concealed. Unfortunately, it’s how we have to do things. But it is true. Because I see it over and over again practicing in this area.

Evan Nappen 46:55

I have a letter here from Dave, and Dave says, I don’t know who else to ask. It seems I get a different answer from different law enforcement people. I don’t know how they can enforce the laws when they don’t understand them. Well, get used to that. Last November I qualified with two different guns for my NJ CCW permit. In April, before I even received my carry permit, I went and qualified with 3rd gun I may want to carry. The NRA instructor, who’s also retired law enforcement, told me I need to submit a copy of my qualification form to my local police chief. Keep a copy with me while carrying that gun. I received my permit at the end of May with a court order attached from Burlington County that says I can only carry the two guns I originally qualified with when I submitted my application back in November 2022. The third gun is not listed on the court order even though I gave a copy to my local PD before I received my permit. The Chief seems to think that I cannot carry the third gun because it is not on the court order. He has a copy of the qualification. The NRA / retired law enforcement tells me the State Police Firearm unit told him and the other instructors all we need to do is keep a copy of the qualification certificate with us. The third gun does not have to be listed on the Burlington County court order. The Chief told me the New Jersey State Police told him we can only carry the guns listed on the attached court order. So, which New Jersey State Police officer is correct? Is it possible to get a court order amended to show the third gun? Is that something your firm will do? What is the process?

Evan Nappen 48:32

Okay, so the question is, we’ll distill this down. You have a judge-issued permit, and your judge-issued permit had a court order with it. The court order said there are two guns, these are the only two guns you can carry and that’s the court order. After that, the law was changed to the Carry Killer bill, and in that there were many statutory changes. The procedural changes also took place with the state police. So now there’s this confusion because there is a State Police form that says if you submit it, these are the guns you can carry. The State Police even say in the form that one permit is good for all guns. And so, it sure looks like if I wanted to carry any gun I wanted to as long as I did that form, and I did that I’m good to go. But the answer is no, you’re not. The answer is you cannot carry that third gun.

Evan Nappen 49:31

Why? I’ll tell you why. Because of the problem that was the eternal problem. The number one problem with New Jersey’s carry was judges. That’s right, judges. It was judges that gave us “justifiable need” as a bar to civilian carry. Its judges that did everything in their power to curtail Constitutional carry, and its judges that failed to follow the law of 58-4, that was even cited on the State Police certification that I Page – 11 – of 11

read you that said one permit is supposed to be good for all. The judges ignored it. Instead, they issued a court order mandating your two guns, and that court order is an order of the court. If you do not follow the court order, if you unfortunately have a judge issued permit, then you can be found in contempt of the order, which is a crime. You can be held criminally liable and/or civilly liable for your violation of the court order. It is the court order that screws you, to put it bluntly.

Evan Nappen 50:48

If you don’t want to be bound by a court order, then you need a straight chief issued permit or one issued straight by the superintendent if your chief doesn’t do them, or you don’t have a chief that does permits where you live in your residence. If you don’t get a permit that’s issued by a chief or the superintendent and instead you keep the judge permit, you’re stuck. So, if you want to surrender your judge permit and get a chief permit, then you can do the form and carry any gun you want. If you wait until your renewal, which should be coming up in November of ’24, when you renew, it will be strictly a chief issued permit because judges are no longer the issuing authority. Thank God. If there was anything great in the Carry Killer bill, it was getting rid of judges. Now the chief will issue your permit, and the Chiefs don’t put restrictions. They can’t. They have no power to do it, and chiefs do not issue court orders. They are not courts. In fact, the State Police have laid out very clearly that one permit is good for all guns. You simply submit the form listing the guns you want to carry, and you’ll be able to take advantage of that when you get your new carry permit on your renewal. Or if you abandon the judge permit by surrendering this one and applying for a new one. That becomes your choice.

Evan Nappen 52:13

Now as far as can you go to court and get a change? I mean, let’s face it, the judge didn’t follow the law. The judge did this, and it was wrong. That court order doesn’t follow the law. Can we go back to the court and change it? The answer is no. Why? Because the Administrative Office of the Courts issued a memo saying judges will no longer consider those changes. In other words, your access to the courts as a New Jersey citizen has been barred by the New Jersey Courts. You cannot seek redress in court for this wrong that was done to you by the judge. Sorry, you’re precluded. Where did you think you lived? In America? Sorry, that’s not the case. Not the case at all. You cannot get relief from the judge. They want nothing to do with it. The courts say we can’t. We had four of these cases pending when that came down and that all ended. You can’t fix it. The only options are to give it up and get a new chief issued permit or wait to renewal and get a new one then. As unfair, illogical and stupid as that is. That is the law. So, the state police that advised you that you’re bound by that court order was 100% correct. This is Evan Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 3 53:49

Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S3 E152_Transcript

About The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.

Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

Regularly called on by radio, television and online news media for his commentary and expertise on breaking news Evan has appeared countless shows including Fox News – Judge Jeanine, CNN – Lou Dobbs, Court TV, Real Talk on WOR, It’s Your Call with Lyn Doyle, Tom Gresham’s Gun Talk, and Cam & Company/NRA News.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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