Episode 144-NJ’s Use of Force or is it Use of Farce?
Also Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 144

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

private citizen, force, deadly force, arrest, citizen, manual, carry, imminent danger, retreat, training, law enforcement, gun, new jersey, folks, concealed carry, law, pepper spray, certification, permit, committed

SPEAKERS

Evan Nappen, Speaker 3

Evan Nappen 00:16

Hello, I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. Well, these sure are exciting times, that’s for sure. Especially when it comes to concealed carry in New Jersey, as our world is constantly evolving with new and fun things. So, last show, as you may recall, we delved into the “John Wick Training Requirements” that are there for qualification so that folks would have to recertify if they already have a carry. Even though they’ve been certified as safe and trained previously. But now they have to meet this new standard which is the equivalent of veteran police officers. It is a rigorous standard that is completely and utterly unnecessary for citizens.

Evan Nappen 01:09

This has now become the subject of litigation by the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs, one of the sponsors of this show. They filed a motion and succeeded in reopening the case that was before Judge Bumb in Federal Court. They are now challenging these qualification-type requirements, which is great news. It is something that needs to be addressed so that citizens can exercise their Constitutional rights without being subjected to any type of extreme, rigorous qualification testing which is done for law enforcement. Private citizens are not law enforcement. They need to get that through their head. They being the Government. They keep associating citizen carry and self-defense with citizens that we’re going to be acting like cops. But guess what? We’re not. We’re not going to act like cops. We’re not. Our job isn’t law enforcement. Our job isn’t arresting people. That’s not what it’s about. We just want to be able to defend ourselves and our loved ones. That’s what it’s about. I want the police to do their job, and the police to do their work. That’s why we have police. But I shouldn’t need to qualify with shooting skills equal to law enforcement who are utilizing their shooting skills for a completely different objective because law enforcement has a job to do. And I’m glad they’re doing it. But that’s not what a citizen needs. Yet there’s this blending, this blurring, this position that somehow, we have to be that and that’s being challenged, and rightly so. I’m confident we’re going to see progress on that front. But it doesn’t just stop there with the qualifying requirements of timed fire, of kneeling when you shoot, of shooting at 25 yards, all this insanity, that they’re pushing on civilian carries that just wants to defend themselves and do not ever expect to be engaging in law enforcement activities. Yet it carries over. Page – 2 – of 9

Evan Nappen 03:59

Let’s take a look at one of the other parts of the requirements. Remember, there’s three things now under the Murphy Carry Killer anti-Civil Rights bill. One of them is the, you know, John Wick Qualification Course you have to take and pass. The other two are taking the online safety course, which is one thing, but the other is the Use of Force instructions. For this, the State Police have put out a manual, a manual right online. You can download it from the State Police website. (https://nj.gov/njsp/firearms/forms.shtml – under Permit to Carry). You can see in this manual that instructors need to instruct upon as part of the requirements for having Carry Permit in New Jersey. So, when we go to this, and we click, under forms to download, Permit to Carry, and you will click it, and guess what comes up as the heading in the tab for the link, and then is reiterated at the very top of the PDF? It says, ready folks, “Use of Force Traininf (I guess they meant the f to be a g). So, it would say training. “Use of Force Training for the Retired Law Enforcement Officer”. That’s right. They are using the Retired Law Enforcement manual for the Use of Force.

Evan Nappen 06:01

Then when you read the actual title on the page, right on the page of the manual, oh, well, it’s called “Use of Force Interim Training for Private Citizen Concealed Carry”. But it’s very telling that the actual link and the PDF heading at the top is all derived from retired law enforcement. And guess where the retired law enforcement materials come from? Active law enforcement. And guess what? Citizens are not law enforcement. This is the problem. Instead of creating a program based strictly on what citizens who want a permit to carry need, they keep utilizing law enforcement materials, and it is not right. So, looking at this, let’s take a little stroll through it because I’m sure you’ll find it very interesting. On the first page of the Use of Force Interim Training for Private Citizen Concealed Carry, right on the front there, I want to point out something in the small print, the fine print right on the front. The last sentence of this very fine printed paragraph says, “Certified firearms instructors remain responsible for ensuring that applicants for permits to carry a handgun are properly trained and proficient before attesting to the applicant’s competence on the prescribed certification form.” So, certified instructors, you had better keep this in mind because the State Police are setting you up as a responsible person. When you sign that certification form, you are certifying and you know what, that’s so important. Because in New Jersey, a certification has the same legal weight as doing an affidavit. So, you are essentially swearing under oath as to the certification qualifications of this individual. The State Police are warning you right up front that they’re holding you responsible. Keep that little gem in mind.

Evan Nappen 08:38

Now let’s take a look at the Use of Force manual when you jump right into it. Well, first, it has a pleasant introduction about the Use of Force training for private citizens. It talks about some general principles and what you need to know. Then it lays out what you can’t do with a Permit to Carry, so that first page is pretty much fair. Except right at the bottom of the first page under number one, Roman numeral one, after that nice introduction to dress it up, it says, “Private Citizen’s Authority”. Private citizens authority. Really. Letter A. says, “Authority to Arrest”. What? This is the Use of Force Interim Training for Private Citizens Concealed Carry, and the very first Roman numeral, the number one thing they’re going to discuss right away is “Authority to Arrest”? Arrest? Are they kidding me? I’m sorry, am I getting a permit to arrest people? Am I going to be law enforcement from this permit? Do I suddenly Page – 3 – of 9

take on that because of it? No. It has nothing to do with private citizen concealed carry. Yet, it’s numero uno, folks. Authority to Arrest.

Evan Nappen 10:23

Then it goes on to say that, “The law does not impose a legal obligation upon a citizen to make an arrest.” You betcha it doesn’t. “The private citizen should consider whether there is an immediate need to act or whether the matter should be handled by appropriate law enforcement officer with the private citizen acting as a witness . . .”. Folks, there’s nothing to consider. Do not make arrests. Why do we carry? Let’s get to the basic fundamental here. It’s not because we want to be vigilantes or cop wannabees, or any of that stuff. It’s about defending ourselves, about defending ourselves and our loved ones. When it comes down to that, it boils down to stopping the threat. That’s what we want to do. Stop that threat of serious bodily injury or death, and it came down that we were justified in the use of deadly force and that was the only way to stop it. That’s what we did, and that’s what it’s about. If that’s right, it’s over. It’s over. You don’t go arresting people. It’s not your job. If that person is running away, you say thank God, they’re running away, and you just call the police. If that threat is over and gone, your job is done.

Evan Nappen 11:55

It continues here. Oh, well. “A private citizen may be justified in making an arrest.” You may be justified in making an arrest. Okay. “. . . when: an indictable offense was actually committed, and the private citizen has probable cause to believe that the person the citizen seeks to arrest has committed it.” Oh, nice. You’re going to be making those judgments here. You’re going to be deciding so you can what? Arrest people? What does that have to do with self- defense? What’s that to do with your carrying a handgun? Carrying a handgun is not about arresting people. We’re not law enforcement. It doesn’t matter. We’ll spend more time on it here. “A private citizen must be able to justify their actions. A private citizen may arrest for an offence involving breach of the peace committed in their presence. State law also permits a private citizen to arrest for violations of the disorderly persons laws committed in the citizen’s presence. The law provides: Whenever an offence is committed in their presence, any constable or police officer shall, and any other person may, apprehend without warrant or process any disorderly person, and take him before any magistrate of the county when apprehended.” It goes on and cites N.J.S.A. 2A:169-3, which has nothing to do with carrying a handgun. Then it says, “A private citizen should inform the person under arrest that the private citizen is making a citizen’s arrest. The private citizen should immediately seek the assistance of a law enforcement officer in making the citizen’s arrest.” Well, if you are going to seek law enforcement assistance, why are you making the arrest? Don’t make arrests. With the civil and potential criminal ramifications against you, all that, and this is the first thing the manual talks about? This is the use of farce, not the use of force.

Evan Nappen 13:48

It continues though, under “B. Use of Force.” We’re still on this topic. Oh, my gosh. “A private citizen’s authority to make an arrest includes the right to use objectively reasonable and necessary force to effect the arrest. The force used must not be excessive in type or amount and proportional to the amount of resistance.” Then it talks about “C. Liability for Misuse of Force.” Good, you need to focus on that because you’re really libel. “A private citizen who makes an illegal arrest or uses excessive force in making a citizen’s arrest may be subject to criminal charges, such as assault, or be subject to civil legal Page – 4 – of 9

action, such as false arrest or false imprisonment, depending on the nature of the action by the private citizen.” Oh, really? Hey, I have a suggestion. Here’s a really good suggestion. Maybe this will be considered. Don’t include this in the manual at all. It’s not part of this. This isn’t law enforcement. Can you get that through your head? It’s so hard for them to break out of the law enforcement mode, and they think because we want carries, we want to be. No, I’m not arresting anyone. I made a deal a long time ago with the police. Listen, here’s my deal. I’ll tell you my deal. If they promise not to give legal advice, I promise not to arrest anybody. How’s that for a deal? You should never be arresting anybody. You make sure the professionals handle that. All you need to do is know what to do when it comes to defending yourself, and what those parameters are. That’s where the focus needs to be. When can I use deadly force or not? And how does that work? What are those considerations I need to know?

Evan Nappen 15:41

Now, it does get into it after the entire business of Arrest to some degree, but still not in the way that I think it really needs to be presented. It talks about having a reasonable belief. And it says here, that a reasonable belief is an articulable, objective factors that support their conclusion that there was a basis or need for any use of force. Okay, that’s wonderful. Let me tell you, in reality, what reasonable belief is. Reasonable belief is, it’s going to be arguably, what 12 people who weren’t smart enough to avoid jury duty believe it is. So, you better be really frickin reasonable. You better be able to justify and show just how reasonable you are because that reasonable standard gets determined by them. So, be real reasonable.

Evan Nappen 16:44

Let’s talk about practical considerations here. Let’s talk about, instead of trying to get into an entire philosophical debate about what’s reasonable, and what’s not. But of course, the manual doesn’t do that. It talks about Imminent Danger. You must believe that in addition to that reasonable belief, the individual presents a threat, private citizens must determine if there’s an imminent need for the use of force. Imminent danger or threatened action is outcome immediately likely to occur during an encounter, absent action by the private citizen. The period of time is dependent on the circumstances and facts evidence for each situation and is not the same in all situations. Boy, that tells you a lot, doesn’t it? That really helps you out about what imminent danger is doesn’t it? You will be able to make that split second decision after listening to that wonderful explanation here given in this Use of Force manual. I’m sure that helps citizens tremendously, right? Because I’m sure none of you are confused by it. It’s so crystal clear. Hey, maybe a better job could be done here. Maybe something could be explained in real terms, as to how one can better make that determination of imminent danger and what that message really stands for. And I’ll tell you what. At the end of this, I’m going to tell you the secrets. I’m going to tell you some key things you really need to know so that you can really understand what we’re dealing with here. Then it gets into, oh, this is great. “Force Options”. Wait until I tell you about the force options in the use of force interim training for private citizen concealed carry. Remember, what’s this about? Private citizen concealed carry. Wait, do you see all the options we have, folks? I’m going to tell you all about it when we come back.

Speaker 3 18:45

For over 30 years, Attorney Evan Nappen has seen what rotten laws do to good people. That’s why he’s dedicated his life to fighting for the rights of America’s gun owners. A fearsome courtroom litigator Page – 5 – of 9

fighting for rights, justice and freedom. An unrelenting gun rights spokesman tearing away at anti-gun propaganda to expose the truth. Author of six bestselling books on gun rights, including Nappen on Gun Law, a bright orange gun law Bible that sits atop the desk of virtually every lawyer, police chief, firearms dealer, and savvy gun owner. That’s what made Evan Nappen America’s Gun Lawyer. Gun laws are designed to make you a criminal. Don’t become the innocent victim of a vicious anti-gun legal system. This is the guy you want on your side. Keep his name and number in your wallet and hope you never have to use it. But if you live, work, or travel with a firearm, that deck is already stacked against you. You can find him on the web at EvanNappen.com or follow the link on the Gun Lawyer resource page. Evan Nappen – America’s Gun Lawyer.

Speaker 3 19:59

You’re listening to Gun Lawyer with Attorney Evan Nappen. Available wherever you get your favorite podcast.

Evan Nappen 20:14

Hey, I’m back. This is Evan Nappen, and I’m so glad you’re listening to Gun Lawyer. I’ll tell you what. We’ve been able to help a lot of folks. But we’re only able to do it because we have great sponsors. One of our sponsors is the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol clubs, ANJRPC. That’s the number one gun rights group in the state of New Jersey. They are litigating for us, as we speak. As I mentioned earlier, they just reopened the case so we can get these ridiculous training requirements brought down to size. They’re fighting over sensitive places, are challenging the carry killer bill, challenging the assault weapon ban, and challenging large capacity mags. They are fighting for our Second Amendment rights. They have a full time lobbyist in Trenton. They are doing good work. You need to support the Association. Be a member. Join. They are our group fighting for us. It is something that is so simple you can do and know you’re helping in the fight. And look, if you’re already a member, send them money. Make your donation and show how much you care. This is a fight we’re in it. This is on one hand a glorious time because we’re establishing, finally, the Second Amendment as it needs to be established in New Jersey. Overturning decades upon decades of unfairness, and it’s the state Association that is standing by our side to do it. You’ll get email alerts from them, and you get a fantastic newsletter. You will know that your part of this group. Check out anjrpc.org. Make sure you’re a participant, not a bystander.

Evan Nappen 22:05

Our other sponsor that we are so appreciative of is WeShoot. WeShoot is an indoor pistol range in Lakewood. They are convenient to so many folks right there in Monmouth and Ocean, etc. WeShoot has been training and certifying folks for their carry, and WeShoot has always maintained the highest standards. As I’ve told you before, they’ve never had a single applicant that they trained, be refused a carry permit because of inadequate training. And I’ll tell you what, this was just proven out now. Because the folks who trained at WeShoot, they take such great care and are so thorough that their prior training is deemed substantially similar to what is required under the new certification. If you actually got your original certification from them, you don’t have to retake courses. You can get your new certification directly from WeShoot because you were smart enough to use WeShoot in the first place with their expert trainers. They’re super friendly. It’s a great place and a great range. Check out weshootusa.com Check out their website. Go down there and utilize that range. Because without Page – 6 – of 9

ranges, we don’t have a place to shoot. Jersey is crowded. We need these ranges, and we need them to succeed. We need facilities and resources like WeShoot that offers such spectacular training. Training that has already met the standard that the State Police, this standard that is so high a standard. Yet, they made sure that the people that they trained were able to do it. That just shows their skill level. So, check out WeShoot. You’ll be glad you did.

Evan Nappen 24:12

Now it’s my time to shamelessly promote my book. I will do that. I will tell you right now it is the Bible of New Jersey Gun Law. Ask anybody who has a copy. It’s over 500 pages. It’s question and answer on 120 topics explained in detail, and it’s continuously updated. That’s right. You scan that barcode, and you subscribe for free. You get alerts, and you stay up to date as anything changes. You want to know what’s going to happen now. What the result is of the challenge of reopening the case in front of the great Judge Bumb. You want to know the answer. Well, please subscribe for free. Get my book. You’ll know exactly how it impacts you and your carry. You’ll be able to have a resource that exists nowhere else for knowing Jersey law and being on top of it. If you do get a copy of the book, I do have to warn you. Do not loan it to anybody because you won’t get it back. I get that complaint a lot, you know. So, hang on to it when you get it. But if you want to get a copy, you can go to EvanNappen.com and pick up your copy there.

Evan Nappen 25:27

Now let me tell you about Force Options. What did they say in the use of farce manual? It says, “The private citizen must be familiar with the basic force options that may be available to respond to the unlawful force against the private citizen, . . .” Okay. “In determining which force option is reasonable under the circumstances, the private citizen must remember the general basic concepts in using force: . . .” All right, they talk about a little bit of the difference between non- deadly and deadly force. Okay. Then under Subsection A, they lay out Force Options for us. Now, remember, this is on what? Private citizen concealed carry. What are the force options? Okay, number one, physical presence, voice commands. This is not a use of force. Okay? Force Options, Constructive Authority – physical presence, voice commands. This is not a use of force. Hmm. Force Options. Not a use of force. Maybe it’s not a force option? Okay. Let’s just contradict ourselves right away. Hey, I didn’t write this. I’m just telling you what they wrote. Force Options. The first one is not an option. Then maybe you don’t put it there? Okay.

Evan Nappen 26:48

Second Force Option. Physical Contact – this is a minimal amount of contact such as guiding someone or handcuffing. Wonderful. I mean, I always carry handcuffs. I have them. Well, I don’t want to talk about that. It’s a little private. All right. “Force Options – Physical force – used to overcome resistance. This includes any physical restraining techniques or striking with hands and feet.” Okay, what else are you striking with? I don’t know. But anyway, mechanical force. This is where it gets good now. Any device or substance, other than a firearm, used to overcome a subject’s resistance. Oh, my god. We’re now going to talk about things other than firearms for Private Citizen Concealed Carry. That’s great. Do I get to carry things other than firearms in my holster? Is that what my permit allows? Is this like Florida, where I can carry a knife under my permit, too or anything else? Oh, no, no, of course not. This is strictly your handgun. You’re not allowed to have more than two and can’t have mags over 10. You Page – 7 – of 9

know. Oh, but let’s talk about “other than a firearm” used to overcome a subject. A private citizen is not authorized under the state law to possess a nightstick. Oh, gee, that was my first question when it came to Citizen Concealed Carry a Handgun for a Permit. Can I have a nightstick? What is this even doing in this? It’s completely off topic. How nice to know I can’t have a nightstick. So, I can’t walk a beat and make arrests as in part one with my nightstick? Is that what you’re telling me? How nice.

Evan Nappen 28:36

However, a private citizen may possess a chemical agent such as pepper spray for self-defense. Citizens are permitted to possess a conducted energy device. How nice. You can’t say Taser or stun gun, huh? You got to say conducted energy device. Excuse me, but this isn’t about taser, stun guns, chemical agents or nightsticks. It’s about Citizen Concealed Carry. But we’ll put it in our list of Force Options, other than the first one which isn’t a force option that we list on force options. Oh, and by the way, if you want to carry mace, they mention you can have no more than three quarters of an ounce. Thus, a citizen cannot possess a larger size of pepper spray that an active duty law enforcement can. Okay. You know, this is really interesting. They tell you first of all about, they get into detail now about pepper spray, even though again none of this has to do with Citizen Concealed Carry. They make it clear that you’re limited to not more than three quarters of an ounce of pepper spray. But they have to explain that further by saying you cannot possess a larger size of pepper spray. Isn’t that what the first sentence just said? But okay, maybe we beat pepper spray to death here enough. Then it says if a private citizen uses pepper spray or a C E D? Isn’t that cool? CED sounds pretty cool. Let’s just say stun gun or Taser against a perpetrator, oh, we get to talk cop language here, too, perpetrator, the private citizen should, where feasible, summon the immediate assistance of a law enforcement officer or first aid squad to provide aftercare to the individual against whom the chemical agent or CED was deployed. But what if you’re making a citizen’s arrest as I’m allowed to do? Do I still need to call the police? Come on.

Evan Nappen 30:20

Then finally, in Force Options, they finally do get to deadly force, and they mentioned it’s with a firearm, knife, or any object capable of causing serious bodily harm or death. Okay, I thought I’m just limited to a handgun and not more than two. But hey, there it is. Well, then the manual continues dealing with Self Defense and Core Elements. It talks about deadly force may only be used to protect the private citizen against death or serious bodily injury. Okay, I agree. But then it gets into the Duty to Retreat, the retreat rule. Do you have to retreat in New Jersey? We always get this whole thing about retreating and not retreating, and the duty to retreat, and it’s going to be the wild west with guns and retreating and blah, blah, blah. Okay, let’s cut through all this on retreating because this manual doesn’t make it any easier to understand it. It says a citizen is not justified in using deadly force if a private citizen knows he or she can avoid the necessity of using deadly force with complete safety by retreating. Oh, my God, all right. Yes, I hear that. But guess what? The Duty to Retreat applies in situations involving deadly force, this is what the state is saying. Then it talks about pointing a firearm at another for self-protection. Then it talks about knowing the difference for pointing. And then it talks about engaging in display of a handgun. So, now, after mentioning something about retreating here, it sounds like you have this duty to retreat. Then we get into three paragraphs that aren’t talking about retreating at all. Page – 8 – of 9

Evan Nappen 32:18

They mentioned this thing called the homeowner’s retreat rule. I thought we left retreating where you just weren’t allowed. No, because a homeowner retreat rule says a person is not required to retreat from their dwelling before using deadly force. Oh, wait a minute. How about at the beginning, we say the retreat rule where a person is not justified in using it, if you can avoid it, but maybe right after that, instead of four paragraphs later talking about something else, maybe that would be a good space, a good time to talk about the homeowner retreat rule. And by the way, what is the homeowner retreat rule? What is this even? Let me try to fix this here. Duty to Retreat. What we often hear is called Stand Your Ground. Does New Jersey have Stand Your Ground? No, New Jersey does not have Stand Your Ground. But what New Jersey does have is Castle Doctrine. Ah, what’s the difference? Castle Doctrine is duty to retreat in one’s home. You do not have to retreat in your home. What is Stand Your Ground? Ah, that’s outside your home, in a place where you have a right to be. However, there you have a duty to retreat. But the entire duty to retreat, even if you have a duty to retreat is conditioned upon your being able to do so with complete safety by retreating, complete safety. Now, please tell me situations where you’re actually justified in using deadly force because it’s that serious, and your life is that threatened or that of a loved one, where you are justified in using deadly force, but you can get away with complete safety. Please tell me the situation where that exists. I mean, short of beam me up, Scotty, maybe. I mean, where? Anyway, this is designed very nicely to confuse the hell out of folks instead of explaining it clearly and concisely, and maybe in an organized way that makes sense.

Evan Nappen 34:46

Anyway, the manual continues until you see a section here. “VIII. Use of Force to Prevent the Commission of a Criminal Offense.” Well, what is this about? “A person is justified in using non-deadly force upon or toward a third party if the person reasonably believes force is immediately necessary to prevent the other person from committing suicide; . . .” I’m not kidding. Okay, what does the use of force, not deadly force, in preventing suicide have to do with a Citizen Carry Permit? I mean, if I encounter someone committing suicide and I have a carry gun, what am I going to do? Threaten to shoot them if they commit suicide? What does that even have to do with this? I’m speechless. Why are you saying this at all? What does this have to do with guns? What does it have to do with carrying a gun? Nothing, zero, zip. But you better know it. You better know if you want to carry a gun that you can use non-deadly force to stop somebody from committing suicide. Because that’s something you better know. Ok, then. So, we’re looking at this and just shaking our heads. Obviously, again, written to be in compliance with the carry killer mandate, etc.

Evan Nappen 36:38

Folks, let me just give you three really important rules. Things that could help guide your behavior. Look, should you understand the law of self-defense and justification use? Absolutely. Are you going to learn it really well, from this manual? Hell, no. But get a good instructor, make sure you’re taught in it properly, and that you’re taught what’s practical, what’s important for real. Not this stuff. If your instructor starts talking to you about the law of citizen’s arrest, you’ve picked the wrong course. Believe me there. You should get this, but I want to give you some things that you should always keep in mind when it comes to the use of deadly force. Okay, number one, keep in mind that Life Wins Over Property. This is a principle. Let’s talk about some principles. Life Wins Over Property. So, if it is simply about theft of property, something involving that type of a problem, where there is no threat of serious Page – 9 – of 9

bodily injury or death, then do not use your gun. Life wins over property every time. You do not use deadly force over just property. Now if someone is trying to rob you of property and they are threatening you with a weapon, well, then it’s not robbing property. It’s their actions with the weapon that then may justify it. But not if someone is just committing a property type of offence.

Evan Nappen 38:40

Second principle, and it’s not discussed anywhere in this manual. The second principle, I didn’t see it. To not be the instigator. Do not be the troublemaker. Do not be the one who started it. Okay, that’s simple. It’s like two little kids. Mommy, he started it. Well, that’s actually how it actually works. You don’t want to be the one who starts it. Do not be the trouble hunter. You want to be the one that avoids trouble, that avoids problems, that does not instigate, cause create, or look for trouble, because juries don’t like that. It is not a position you ever want to place yourself in. Now let me give you the third key. The third key to really understanding what makes a self-defense claim successful or not successful. There are many elements of course, but I’ll tell you right now. One thing that has got to be conveyed and again is not in this manual at all, but you better know it. There’s one word, one key to what makes somebody more likely to win in a case involving use of deadly force, versus lose a case. That one word is fear. You had better be in fear. It has to be a fear that the jury can understand. It needs to have that visceral fear that they get it. That if they were in your shoes, they, too, would be in fear. That’s what goes to the heart of Imminent Danger, and it has to be a reasonable fear. It just can’t be, you know, I’m scared. You’ve got to really be in it, and it’s got to be. That is the message which has to be put forward in the legal matter, that message of fear. Folks, if you’re mad, if you’re angry, and you pull that trigger, you weren’t scared. Juries are not going to like that, and it’s going to undercut you on the Imminent Danger. The state knows it, too, folks. They’ll try to paint you as angry, as vengeful, etc. But the key is fear. In fact, just how scared you were, how afraid you were for your life or that of a loved one. These are real concepts. This is how it really works when you have to make these evaluations and that’s just touching on the key points.

Evan Nappen 41:27

All right. So, take a really good course in this type of training that you truly need if you’re going to have the responsibility of carry. But this manual, this use of farce interim training for private citizen concealed carry has a long way to go if folks are going to be relying on it. The one takeaway I would have, if you’re a certified instructor, that little fine print sending you all a message, beware of that. This is Evan Nappen, reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 3 42:11

Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S2 E144_Transcript

About The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.

Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

Regularly called on by radio, television and online news media for his commentary and expertise on breaking news Evan has appeared countless shows including Fox News – Judge Jeanine, CNN – Lou Dobbs, Court TV, Real Talk on WOR, It’s Your Call with Lyn Doyle, Tom Gresham’s Gun Talk, and Cam & Company/NRA News.

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