This week on the Creative Genius Podcast, Gail Doby sits down with Margaret Donaldson, founder of Margaret Donaldson Interiors (MDI), and Courtney Heffron, MDI’s CFO, for an incredibly candid conversation. Margaret shares the story of starting her business 36 years ago and how, after running it “from the gut” for decades, she realized the firm’s growth—especially during COVID—had made the business bigger than her.

Listen in as Margaret opens up about the difficult, but necessary, journey of shifting her mindset from boss to leader. She shares what prompted her to seek coaching—the need for an exit strategy and a desire to ensure MDI’s legacy and protect her employees. Courtney provides expert insight on when a design firm should hire a CFO and the strategic value that high-level financial expertise brings to decision-making.

Margaret and Courtney reveal how embracing a leadership team and committing to a cultural pivot—moving from a control culture to a collaborative culture—required making hard choices, but resulted in massive growth, including a doubling of their net profit. This episode is a must-listen for any firm owner looking to build an A-plus team, invest in intentional growth, and create a “well-oiled machine” that can thrive beyond its founder.

In this episode, you’ll learn:

• Margaret’s “divorce” from her original family business partnership that pushed her to start MDI.
• How a chance meeting (and a retiring bookkeeper) brought Courtney, with her public accounting and auditing background, into the role of MDI’s CFO.
• The surprising, quick results they achieved once Margaret stopped resisting and fully committed to the coaching process.
• The challenges of emotionally separating the business entity from Margaret’s personal identity to enhance business development.
• Margaret’s new skill of pausing and listening more before speaking, including a funny example of changing the “hit by the bus” scenario.
• Margaret’s creative business development secret: chasing every lead and following up with past satisfied clients—even if it means a surprise flight.
• Courtney’s perspective on overcoming imposter syndrome and the necessity of trial-and-error in business growth.
• Their strategy for building an A-plus team using the “ideal team player” framework, focusing on candidates who are humble, hungry, and smart.

If you’re listening on your favorite podcast platform, view the full shownotes here: https://thepearlcollective.com/s14e3-shownotes

Episode Transcript

Note: Transcript is created automatically and may contain errors.

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Welcome to the created genius podcast, Margaret and Courtney. It’s always a pleasure to work with you too. And I’m just excited to have you on the podcast today. You are absolutely one of my favorite clients because you are so coachable and is one of the things that has made it such a delight to work with you all and to see you progress over this last year and a half. And it’s hard to believe it’s just been a year and a half, but let’s start with how you got into business. Margaret, what was your goal when you started?

Sure. Well, thank you for having us. It’s quite an honor. I appreciate that. So the goal when I started my business, it just sort of happened. was in design school in college. And then when I got out of college, I worked for an established designer for a few years. And then I formed a partnership with my aunt and she had a successful furniture store.

And after several years there, I felt the need to break free of the restraints of her business model so that my design work could expand. And unfortunately, we kind of had a divorce, which was very hard since it was family. And it was the right thing to do, though. I was a little bit in a box where I was.

And I officially started my business three weeks before my first child was born. And that’s when I started Margaret Donaldson interiors.

Gosh, and you’ve been in business for how long now?

think it’s 36 years, 36 years as Margaret Donaldson interiors. you know, I had I worked for someone else and then with my aunt for several years before that. I don’t want people to know how old I am.

So wow.

They don’t have to know. No problem. Well, it’s so interesting and it’s so interesting also that, and I’m going to go a little bit off of some of the questions I had for you, but I was thinking about for you to come to me at the point of your business that you did, it was really an interesting time to choose to do that because you’ve been running your business for a very, very long time.

Right. But the business really got it got bigger than me and I realized I needed help. So I found Pearl at just the right time.

It’s been great. Well, let’s start with also with how you two started working together and Courtney, share what you do with MDI.

Yeah, so before joining MDI, I worked in public accounting as an auditor for several years, which gave me a good foundation and exposure to a lot of different businesses. And I actually got connected to Margaret through her son’s friend who I used to work with. this was around COVID and I was wanting a career change. And when I heard about the opportunity, I felt like it would be the perfect fit. It was honestly like a dream job for me.

I’ve always loved interior design. even wanted to be a designer when I was younger, but I quickly realized that I don’t have that creative side and my strengths are definitely better suited on the business and financial side. So this role gave me really the best of both worlds where I get to be part of the creative industry that I genuinely love while focusing on the financial and operational side that I’m passionate about.

I was initially hired as the controller and then that developed into the CFO role that I’m currently in. When I first joined MDI, we had a really smaller bookkeeping setup. And so my goal was to modernize and streamline things. During that time, we transitioned from QuickBooks to Studio Designer, moved everything digital, and that has really completely transformed how we manage the business.

And so now today, my role touches on a little bit of everything from strategic planning, decision making, financial management and forecasting to client relations, new business opportunities. And then I also oversee the accounting, course, payroll, employee benefits, taxes, and et cetera. Essentially just helping ensure the business runs smoothly and continues to grow.

She has a really big job.

This is very big job. You’re a big company in our industry. And so for the level of work that you do, and maybe we should throw in here how many people you have on your team. Maybe you check.

You do.

But Courtney and I’ve been sort of back and forth on this, but we have decided that we have including myself. We are at 19 employees, full time employees. And then we have four 1099 contractors that we use in various capacities. So I guess we’re.

Somewhere around 23.

Sometimes it’s clearer than you think, and especially since it grew so organically for you. It’s interesting how all of a sudden you end up running a big team and you never anticipated that you’re going to do that.

Exactly, it just happened and that’s when I knew I needed help.

It was kind of like the perfect storm when COVID happened, business was booming actually for the interior design industry. And that’s around the time that I came on. And I felt like the growth really did happen very organically. And we just, as business was coming in, we made it work, hired more and improved the business as much as we could.

And so it was actually during COVID that brought me to Courtney because we stayed home for six weeks. And then when I called everyone back to the office at that point, my bookkeeper, who had been with me for 22 years, decided that she didn’t want to come back and it was time for her to retire. So that very Friday, I was sitting on my dock with my son.

and his friend, and I was just lamenting the fact that I don’t have a bookkeeper anymore, she’s leaving. And this is when my son’s friend was like, I might know somebody, and he starts texting, and that’s how it all came to be. So things happen for a reason.

They do happen for a reason. I believe that. In fact, every time I’ve wanted to hire somebody, I just think about it and I start talking about it and I put a job description together and the person shows up. It’s so funny that it works that way. So I’m not surprised that worked for you. So I guess a question I have for you, Courtney, is when does it make sense to add somebody with your level of knowledge? Because not all firms hire a CFO.

Yeah.

And of course you’re a larger firm, so to me that makes sense, but is there a particular time or a particular incident?

I think it really depends on a few factors, mainly the size and complexity of the business, especially as your firm grows, you have more projects, more employees, there’s more moving parts. I like the accounting side naturally becomes more involved at that point. And so that’s usually when it makes more sense to bring someone in with higher level financial experience in house. Then once you also start doing more large scale projects, I think it’s crucial to have

strong and efficient processes and procedures in place. And having someone who really understands both the business side and the numbers really helps you streamline operations and then make smarter decisions in the end. And I think eventually too, as you’re starting to think about the future, whether that’s scaling, succession planning, or even your eventual exit strategy, I think it’s incredibly valuable to have someone who can confidently navigate those conversations and

you know, speak the same language as your CPA attorney, financial advisor. So yeah.

Yeah, well, and I think too, it’s really important as you’re growing your firm and you’re in more of a leadership role where you’re the CEO of the business, you’re not really in the day-to-day of the design as much as you used to be. And you need quick information, so dashboards and KPIs and things that allow you to know exactly where you are are really critical for

the owner of the business to have that kind of a shortcut is that you can say, okay, here’s where our cash is. Here’s where the cash flow is. This is how many leads we have right now. Just basic numbers, crunching those and guiding that way so that you’re helping the CEO make a really good decision.

Yeah.

We’re still working through some of that, we are diligently working through it. Sure.

Well, you don’t kind of get all of these things in place all at once and it takes years. As you know, you’ve built this business for years. and as you’re starting to up level and businesses coming in faster, you have to make other changes that get you to a higher level of thinking too. So we’ve talked about where your business is now. We know that you have 19 and you have some other 1099s on staff.

You also mentioned a leadership team, and that usually happens for firms when they’re about eight people or more. At what point did you add people or did you add that leadership team?

I think the leadership team came together, I think, as a result of Pearl. And so I think that would be in 2024, last year. So I had had some business coaching with a consultant who started with me in 2023. And he was really

trying to help me grow the team and look forward to the future. And I think that it all evolved, the leadership sort of evolved from a combination of that coaching and then Pearl’s coaching.

And how does that change things for you, having a leadership team?

It’s been great because with the business, the size that it is, we had to segment into different departments and we didn’t really have that before. So we had to define departments and each department needed a department head. And I considered these were managers and

I was corrected and told they are leaders, not managers. So just little nuances with these words really do make a difference. So we now have a weekly leadership meeting and each leader is able to bring to the table what’s going on in their department. And there’s so much crossover from one to another, particularly the design department and then the

procurement and operations, it’s very interrelated. HR is a department and sometimes there’s crossover there with things that are going on and of course the financials too. So having a place where we can come and talk about what’s going on and collectively, I wouldn’t say that we make a group decision necessarily on things.

but we listen to the input from each department and how what we’re talking about might affect them and then make a decision and move on.

Well, I think it’s important for people to know that you have different ways that you can make decisions. You can get input from people and make your own decision, or it can be a collaborative effort, or there are going to be times that you need to just make the decision as the leader of the company. And that is your prerogative as the owner is to be able to do that. So you have to make that decision about which way you’re going to make the decision. But having a leadership team

I think it’s a big change for a lot of people. And I can imagine that it was hard for you to let go of some of that control. yeah. Adding the leadership team. I know I felt the same way when I started one.

Right. I’ve run my business from my gut my whole career. And when I realized as I was growing that I needed these departments and leadership, it became more business like and rather than just what I thought and what my gut was telling me. And that was a big change for me. And

Some of that change was the way I saw the business. So I saw the business as me. And and so I just use common sense, make a decision. I usually make a pretty quick decision. Maybe not maybe in the past, it was with not as much analysis or input. It was just really a lot of gut. And

I think with the size that we are now and the volume of business we’re doing, that’s really not a smart way to make good business decisions. So yeah, that was a very big change for me.

And change is not easy, is it?

No.

It’s not.

Yeah, I, gosh, I commend you for that because like we were talking about, you brought on this other consultant in 23. So it’s only been the last couple of years. So what really prompted this for you? What was the big thing that was going on that pushed you that direction?

So in 2023, I realized that I needed to start thinking about my exit strategy. had no idea what that would look like at all. And I was thinking, how do you do that when you are the business? I personally was the business. And so when I brought on this consultant, I knew that

MDI had a stellar reputation in the community after 35 years, and I knew I didn’t want to just wind things down and fizzle out and that I wanted to plan and really make a plan for MDI to continue beyond me. But I had no idea how to do that. You know, what would its succession look like? And I felt a really strong responsibility to the team.

the team is who makes your business run. And I just felt it was important that I make a plan that allowed MDI to grow and prosper into the future, with or without me. I could see no version of me just locking the doors one day and saying, it’s been fun, but I’m done and putting all those great people out of work. That just was just not possible.

So because of all that, I knew I needed help. I didn’t have a clue how to begin this process. And I knew that I needed to create a well-willed machine that ran effectively with less of me. And quite honestly, with the growth of the business during COVID, this business got bigger than me. And I was working about 65 hours a week.

And I think that was starting to crack a little bit. So that’s what prompted me to bring in the business consultant.

It’s heaven.

We

He started telling me things that I didn’t want to hear. like you shouldn’t be doing all the design work. And, know, I fought back and I said, I am a designer that is, you know, no, need to be the leader. And I was like, I’m not a leader. I’m, I’m the boss. No, you’re not the boss. You’re, you’re the leader of this company. I was like, well, I don’t want to be the leader of the company. want to do design work. you know, he put up with a lot.

of me in 2023 as each little morsel that he dropped that was a step towards creating a well-oiled machine that was less dependent on me. I did it sort of kicking and screaming and many of the things he was suggesting I just ignored and said, you don’t understand the design business. This isn’t like

the other businesses you’ve helped run, you just don’t get it. It was when I joined Pearl and you started saying the exact same things, almost verbatim, that my eyes were really opened. I thought, well, now here’s Gail and Pearl that is industry-specific.

And they are telling me the same things. So at that point, we just we went full force in. It was like, OK, I’ve had a year of hearing this and now here’s somebody else telling me the same thing. And I was like, I’m all in. I’m drinking from the fire hose and we’re going going strong. So that’s what we started doing.

Yeah.

And I just remember, it’s not often that somebody just jumps in with both feet and says, okay, I’m going to do all these things that this person is telling me to do. it’s really hard, especially if you’ve had a certain way of doing business to change your mind and then take that and implement and trust that is going to work. So you had two of us saying to you and you went and did it.

I just have to say you guys were on it. You were right there from the beginning doing what we suggested and you got good results very quickly as a result of doing that.

I think it’s also important to note too, this other consultant is a friend of Margaret’s. And so I think he could also be very candid with her at times. And I think that’s what really started to shape her mindset. And we started to work on the culture. And I think we honestly weren’t in a place where we could get as much out of the Pearl Collective and hit the ground running, like you mentioned, until we got through that year of really shaping the mindset and the…

is starting to change the culture at least a little bit at that point in time.

Yeah, the mindset piece is number one, because if you don’t change the mindset, you can’t do anything else. running into some issues around culture, and that was what prompted you to do the on-site, which was two days of us working together, one with the leadership team and one with your whole team. But talk a little bit about that, some of the things that you were having to work on.

So it was really the on-site was really about six months after we started with Pearl. And as Courtney said, I feel like because of the other business consultant, I was primed to be ready to hear what you were telling me. You were fortunate you came second in line because otherwise you would have gotten all the pushback and whatnot.

Courtney and I were just absorbing and soaking it in and trying to do as much as we could as fast as we could. But the rest of the team didn’t have the benefit of the coaching and the things that we were learning. So here we come week after week at our weekly meetings and talking about increasing time billing and sending weekly communications to our clients. And it was just one thing after another that

we needed to change and improve and there was a lot of shaking of heads and like what has gotten into you two. And I think that really, we realized that we needed to explain to the team the why behind why we were making the changes. It was for very specific reasons and

They needed to hear that firsthand from someone other than me. I could sit at the weekly meeting and tell them everything that you said, but they needed to hear it from an outsider. So that was really important.

Yeah, and you had to make some big changes. I know that you let some people go. You made some changes to one person’s position. So you had to make some big pivots along the way through. And how are things today?

We are in such a good place today with our culture and the team that we have. I think we really do have an A team in place now. And I’m telling you, that was not fun or easy. You and our consultant told us repeatedly, and I say repeatedly because sometimes it takes me a while to hear things. I have to hear things more than once to for them to soak in. that

you had to have the right people in the right seats doing the right things. And our culture, we defined and spent a lot of time, I think in the onsite really, defining our culture and recognizing that.

You could be a great designer, but you’ve got to be a good culture fit too. That the culture was equally as important to the design work. So I had gone probably 30 years and never in my whole career had let anybody go. And I began to see that there was more

damage being done by keeping someone that wasn’t the right fit for one reason or another. The trickle down, the way it affected other members of the team, it just became evident that I had to kind of put on my big girl pants and do some of these things that I would I find uncomfortable. So, yeah, it’s been a it’s been a journey, but I feel like

You know, it takes practice to do this and recognizing things. And I’ve learned a lot the past two years.

It is a big job to make this kind of a change and it really was a big pivot for your company. And it has also impacted your bottom line too, because you have had a pretty significant increase in profit over the last few years. And I don’t know you have a percentage, that you could share.

Essentially our net profit has really, it’s doubled since we started making these changes. It’s, yeah, it’s been significant. We’re about to close the, you know, the quarter three books now. And I’m looking forward to it because we’re right in line with where we forecasted years ago, or, over our forecast model. And that’s exciting. You finally get to that point.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, well, it’s great because, and to me, this is one of the things that I look for as a consultant. I want to make sure that somebody is getting a return on investment for the money they put into our programs and the work that we do together, because it’s not a small number on the front end. But if you can get a multiple of that, then it’s not really a cost.

Right. So I remember in our VIP session, the one session with you and you had reviewed all our financials and you told us how things could change and how quickly they could change if we would just do, you know, follow the rules and do these things. And I remember, I hope I wasn’t rude, but I

I remember kind of shaking my head and thinking, I’m a skeptic. can’t imagine that what you are predicting could turn into reality. And as usual, you were right.

Well, I hope I would be. We’ve done this a few hundred times, so yeah, we’ve got some experience with it, but in that that’s why I said if you are willing to do the work and if you’ll dive in and do those changes, you will get massive results. But it’s not easy and not everybody is willing to put in the work, nor are they willing to face those hard decisions sometimes. So I give you guys a lot of credit. That’s not easy to do.

I’m

So what were some of the biggest surprises along the way about running a design business?

Well, like I said before, I’d always run my business from my gut and I’ve never had a business class or a management class and I just always did what I thought was right and I used common sense. And once I got to that size where things change, I had to begin to operate more like a big business and I never saw myself that way. I never…

saw myself as a big business. I I would have friends or colleagues say to me, you know, at a party or something, you know, you’ve really got a big business and you’ve got a place in the community. And I just would brush it off. And I just didn’t see it that way.

I mean, I knew Margaret’s name before I started working here. Not just because we had mutual friends like from your sons. mean, Margaret Donaldson’s name was, it’s known around town.

Well, yeah, so I think probably in order to take that next step, I had to emotionally separate myself from the business and talk about MDI as a separate entity rather than talking about Margaret Donaldson as the business. the business had been me for for so long, and I had to get there in my head.

that it was separate. It actually made business development and marketing easier when I separated myself from it because I’m talking about this incredible company that’s doing great things and I’m not bragging on myself and I just couldn’t do that. So that was a big challenge and I would say the other challenge that was really hard for me and

I think I’m over the hurdle now is I had to shift from being a boss and just saying, this is what I think this is what we’re going to do. Let’s just move on. Didn’t explain why I think that’s what a boss does. The boss just takes charge, doesn’t. And I had to shift into being a leader. That is very, very different.

Mm-hmm.

very, very different. And it really changes your way of communicating with everybody because you are not being more of the dictator of this is what’s going to

All right, yeah, which is really easy. was my business consultant. I don’t think you said this. I think it was Sam. He said you have an authoritative style. But I think I’m a nice person.

You are a very nice person. Yeah, you’ve got

Which is funny when you say that because Margaret’s not an intimidating boss by any means, but we really did have, like once we started working with you, we started talking about culture, we realized we really did have a kind of a control culture that now has become more of a collaborative culture. And I think we’re way better off for it.

For sure.

Well, you’ve also had a lot of confidence in the way you’ve run your business, Margaret. And is that something that came naturally to you?

Well, I’ve always been told to have strong opinions. As a matter of fact, when my husband asked my father if he could marry me, his answer to him was that you do know she’s very stubborn, don’t you? I mean, so that goes way back. but I think I like to take in all the information, really consider it and then make a decision.

Hopefully, I’m able to do that without digging my heels in too much. I’m decisive by nature, which has helped in the business. But now, with help, I’m trying to balance that decisiveness with a little more thoughtfulness. Maybe some of the explanation. mean, you’ve told me repeatedly, I know you’ve made this decision.

Thanks.

Don’t act on it yet. You’ve got to bring people along. They’ve got to get to the same place. And that’s very frustrating for me because if I’ve made the decision and I’m still the boss. But what that is, is you’re telling me to be a better leader and get them. Don’t be the boss that just says, here’s what we’re doing, here’s how we’re going, here’s how we’re going to do it. Be a leader and with a little more thought, explain the reasons why.

All of that.

Yeah, it is a new skill set that you developed and you did that quickly too. So then that brings me to that question of have you ever had imposter syndrome, fear of failure, fear of success, any of those things?

I thought about that a bit and I would say no. Unless I’m not understanding the question correctly, no, I just have gone for it.

That’s amazing.

Well, think, you know, naturally, think Margaret’s very determined and intuitive. And, you know, as we’ve said, often leads with her guts. And honestly, I think it’s served her really well over the years. But I think, you know, in many ways, we also balance each other out very well, because I’m the one that’s like, okay, let’s, you know, pause, think about this decision before we make it, the what, the why, the when and how. And I’m very much a thinker and sometimes overanalyze, which I think

For me then, I think I do sometimes have imposter syndrome, which I think is very normal for early in their careers to have. But I think I constantly remind myself that I was hired for a reason, to bring my unique skills and perspective and experience to the team. And whenever those feelings arise, I just focus on trusting my abilities and making those thoughtful decisions and leaning on mentors.

like you, Gail, sometimes for guidance when needed. And I don’t know it all, but I have that experience that is needed and just need to trust in that and have confidence in that. And my goal though is continue learning and improving every day. And with time, that self-doubt just naturally starts to fade, I think. But I’ve also learned, think one of the biggest things I’ve learned with working at MDI is that,

can’t have a fear of failure and you can’t hold you back because especially when you’re growing a business, that growth requires experimentation. And sometimes that means a lot of trial and error. And we’ve had situations where something we tried didn’t work as planned. And then each time we’ve had to regroup and analyze what went wrong and then adjust our approach. And I think every setback has ultimately led to better systems and

greater confidence in those changes we’re making going forward.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I’ve seen that. I’ve seen the change in your leadership style as well over the last year and a half. And you have become much more confident and more decisive. So I’ve seen a lot of that progression with you as well. And every time you become more of that leader, that helps Margaret step up to the level that she needs to be, which is…

And

brought you to some changes in your role, Margaret. So let’s talk about that a little bit.

Okay.

Gee, my role has changed a lot the past several years. So I’ve already talked about the big, big change was going from being a boss to being a leader and the challenges there. I mentioned earlier on, had to pull away from being involved in the design work. And so that was a little bit of a, well, but that’s who I am. I’m a designer and

I was told I had to do that if I was going to lead this team. I’ve had to temporarily step back in as design director for a period of time, but now I’m not in that role anymore. So now I’m solely focused on business development and scaling the business. And when I realized that’s the path I was taking, I

thought to myself, well, what if I don’t enjoy that? What if I don’t like doing that? And I found that I really do enjoy it. It’s a challenge and it’s it’s, I do enjoy it. So, and I think I’m able to enjoy it because I’m talking about the business. I’m not talking about myself, but I think that as an owner and leader of a large team, you have to be ready and willing to pivot.

on a moment’s notice and do whatever is best for the business. So you can have the best laid plans, but you have to, you have to be able to just say, okay, that’s going on hold for a little bit because this has cropped up and has to be dealt with and got to deal with it. So the other thing that I think is really significant for me,

is the amount of coaching I’ve had on changing my mindset on how I view things, how I react to things. I think I’m a little less reactive than I used to be and especially how I say things. I’ve learned the power of words and that slight differences in words really do matter.

And this has been a really hard one for me because my nature is to just blurt out whatever I am thinking. And I’ve learned that by pausing and listening more before speaking and thinking about using more positive words, that’s really helped. And this is something I’m still working on. is, this is a, you’re trying to change something the way you are, the way God made you.

and

You know, I’m someone that blarts things out. trying to work on that is challenging. And I’ll give you a funny example there. So at your direction, have been, leadership’s been trying really hard to document all of our processes. And we have been saying for a long time, we’ve been saying, if you get hit by the bus,

trying.

How would someone know how to do your job? How would someone know what is in your head? So we’ve got to document these processes. So if you get hit by the bus, know, someone else can step in and do that. And so the more positive way to say that is if you win the lottery and you don’t need to come to work tomorrow, someone might need to step in and do your job and needs to know. So that’s just an example of trying to say the same thing, get the same point across.

in a much different way.

I love that. I didn’t know you had used that one, but I liked that. I liked that pivot. That was very well done. Well, what is the secret to business development or your secret to it? Because you’ve stepped into that role and what I’ve noticed, especially since you’ve had some more time to work on that, that it is coming very easily to you.

Thank

Well, I follow every lead. I chase things down. I hear of something that might have potential, first of all, I’m learning to use Asana. I put things in Asana. Now that I have more time, I’m using the dates and giving myself dates so that I will follow up on things.

I always thank people for referrals. Even if it’s something that doesn’t work out, I stop and think who was involved in this and as business development, it’s an opportunity to be in their inbox again, whether it’s an email or whatever. But so I always thank people for their connection in the referrals. And I try really hard to make connections and

I’m starting to think now about personal ways to stay in touch. As a of fact, my thought this morning, I need to get this in a sauna before I lose it, but my thought this morning was to go through our clients, all of our past clients, and some of them are long gone and whatnot, but just scroll through our past clients and make a list.

of those that I should reach back out to maybe with the designer that was there and just say, hey, let’s catch up and go to lunch. Because I know your past satisfied clients are a terrific source for referrals. But it’s just another thought that I need to get that on my agenda and try to do that, get it started.

Yeah, I we’ve started doing projects in other states and expanding geographically really because it started with former clients. Maybe they had a second home on Kiowa that we worked on and then they want to do their primary residence back home in a different state.

There’s a project that we’re installing in another state next month, and I’m not needed to go on that. We did our house here and now we were doing some work in our home and I wasn’t the lead designer on it any longer. I’m not needed to go and I’ve been toying with the idea.

day flight, whether I should surprise her and show up to show my interest and or maybe I tell I’m not sure. But she’s she’s a really great client and I and it has turned into a great friend and I we enjoy each other and she has been a good referral source and a she’s a terrific reference and I think I just made up my mind. think I’m flying.

Anyway, if she’s a great referral source and a great friend, then my gosh, yes.

But that’s the type of marketing and business development that is sort of creative. mean, that is that’s not what you’re going to find in a book somewhere. It is like it’s being focused on the relationships, keeping those relationships, whether it’s with the client or with an architect or with the builder or the realtor. Those are our primary sources of referral. And so

staying in relationship with those people is critically important. And there are lots of ways to do it.

Yeah, absolutely. But I think you definitely want to be on that plane.

Yeah, okay. All right. don’t marching orders.

What are the lessons you’d like to share with the other designers that are listening and wanting to grow their firms? And I’d like to hear that from both of you.

Okay. I would say one of the things I’ve learned is the importance of interviewing and hiring well. I really did a poor job of that in the past. would, I was the only person interviewing, it was usually less than an hour. And if I liked them, I’d say, okay, you’re, you’re hired. We have used the book.

the ideal team player as a guide and it focuses on whether you are humble, hungry and smart. And if you’re not all three of those things, then you might not be the right fit for us. And this framework has served us really, really well. And and again, this is what I said earlier. It’s not just about them being proficient at their job and their skill. I mean, you assume that

They have the skill set. But what is so hard to tell in an interview is whether or not they’re going to be a good culture fit, what their character is like. And so that has that has really been pivotal in getting the right people on the team.

Yeah, I mean, I completely agree. think building that A plus team is everything. And you really want to have people who share your core values, believe in your vision and are actually genuinely excited to grow with the business. Because not everyone may be on board and that’s okay, but they just might not be the right fit for this business, you know, maybe. And so I think growth really takes a lot of trust.

and you have to communicate well, delegate, and empower your team to take ownership, especially when you’re making a lot of changes. And again, yeah, and growing the business. But I also think it’s important to grow with intention and have a plan, create efficient processes, and keep refining them until the business runs like a well-oiled machine. I think that structure gives you lot of freedom to focus on.

Mm.

know, strategy and creativity instead of just putting out fires all the time, which is what we had been doing for many years. And it’s exhausting.

And you know what, that is a really good point because if you’re putting out fires, you have not, you’ve got some serious core problems that you need to fix. And that is one of the, probably the biggest tips that you could be paying attention to if you’re listening to this. If that’s what you’re doing all the time, then you’ve got some things that you need to fix.

That’s right. That’s right. Another thing I would say that’s important is to anticipate your hiring needs before you need them to think ahead like that. I never thought like that. It was like, OK, if I have a void, then I’ve got to find someone. And so I’ve been advised to always be thinking about the future and be prepared, you whether you you.

bring in a lot new work, are you prepared to handle it or you never know when somebody’s going to have a life change and need to suddenly leave your team. so keeping your eyes and ears open for all the different jobs is good to be doing. And then I would also say if you’re wanting to grow your firm,

you’ve got to invest the time in the business development. And that was something I never did before. I’ve been very fortunate over my career that I always had enough work. It just came in naturally, probably because I was doing all that follow-up and thanking people and staying connected. But I didn’t really see that as business development. I thought that was just being polite.

Little did I know, it’s all about the easy stuff, which is relationship.

Right, right. But now I see it to see that that is why I didn’t have a problem. And now that I’m trying to scale the business, I have to be more intentional about it and take it further and not just be responding to what comes in. I need to be a little more proactive about it.

for sure. I always like to end these with a question that is, somebody some ideas that they can go put into place. So what are a couple of takeaways that you’d each like to share?

Go ahead, Margaret.

Okay, well, I, I would say listen to your gut just because that has served me well. I think your, your gut instinct on things is worth paying attention to. It’s usually right. And whether it’s about a client, maybe not being the right client or a hire or a business decision. I think another thing.

And this is something my husband helped me with is if you have the right business, a good client knocking on your door and you’re thinking, I can’t take this on because I just don’t have the capacity. He’s always told me just hire someone and don’t if it’s the right type of business. Do it. Just figure out.

say yes and figure out how you’re going to do it and do it as well as you always have so that you keep your reputation. That’s been good advice because I can remember many times thinking we’re so busy I don’t want it. You he’d say just hire somebody and I know I know. So and then I think as a designer and I think

him.

Many of your listeners are designers like me that just ended up as the CEO running their business. That’s pretty natural here. Invest in good business people and coaching. Always try to surround yourself with people that do things better than you do. like financial, I’m not that great at that.

I feel like I have a good business sense, but the weeds of the accounting is definitely over my head. you know, it’s important that I have someone that is way smarter than I am in that area. consider what you are good at and surround yourself with people to do things that you’re not good at or.

I’ve also decided I don’t want to do that anymore. Maybe I don’t run an installation anymore, haven’t for a number of years. It’s exhausting. And I have got someone who does that exceptionally well. it happens. So figuring all that sort of stuff out, I would say.

Terrific. And Courtney, about you?

would say build the right team and trust them. Surround yourself with people that you share your values, like I said, believe in your vision and are willing to grow the business. And once you have that A plus team, communication and trust are key and giving people the ownership and space to do what they do best. Like Margaret was saying, I also think grow with intention.

And as your firm expands, put strong systems, processes, and financial structures in place so that the business runs smoothly behind the scenes. And that foundation then, you know, because of course it allows you to focus on that, the strategy, creativity, and delivering exceptional service to your clients and all the other players involved in the project. And then I would say value relationships and service above all.

I think there’s a lot to be said for genuine relationships. And I think that’s what’s gotten Margaret so far in this business, in this industry. whether it’s its clients, vendors, builders, or even your own team, they’re really the core of a successful design business, those relationships. And I think when you operate with integrity, transparency, and that genuine desire to provide the highest level of service, then

that success in referrals just naturally follow.

So well said. You all thank you so much for being on the podcast today. And I know there were so many great nuggets in this. can’t wait for people to hear this.

Well, thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.