When something just feels off. Do I think, “My husband is lying to me.” How do you know what to do next?

When he gives you that strange, blank look before answering a simple question, it’s likely that he was taking time to formulate a story he thought you’d believe.

Stacey is on the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast sharing her own story of seeking safety after learning that her husband was living a double life, rife with lies and manipulation.

To discover if you’re experiencing this type of emotional abuse (lying), take our free emotional abuse quiz.

The Abuser Puts On A Facade

Many victims struggle to accept that the abuser is manipulating them because of the incredibly believable facade they put on. The abuser may wear a mask that makes him seem:

• 
  
• Devoutly religious
  
• Like an honorable leader (many abusers hold public leadership roles)
  
• Incredibly smart (doctors, attorneys, professors, etc)
  
• Gentle (others may say things like, “He wouldn’t hurt a fly!”
  
• Altruistic and woke (some abusers may be very involved in human rights activism, civil rights, or other causes to seem like a good person)
  
• Grounded and at peace (they may wear this mask by getting involved in new-age practices like yoga, meditation, secular Buddhism, becoming a life coach, etc).
  

The Abuser Gaslights You To Avoid Getting Caught

Abusers will keep victims spiraling in every direction, so that catching your husband lying is a nearly impossible feat. They keep victims especially fixated on their own “flaws” so that victims feel they’re not allowed or worthy to address the abuser’s dishonesty. 

If Something Feels Off, Trust Yourself

Ultimately, you can’t outsmart an abuser – they’ll deny, gaslight, and project until they’re blue in the face. Even if they admit they’re lying, they will never give you the closure and validation that you deserve. Instead, trust yourself that something is off, and instead of seeking definitive proof and a confession, seek safety. Our Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions are a safe space for you to process your trauma and work toward safety. Attend a session today. 

Transcript: I Think My Husband Is Lying To Me

Anne: I have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’ll call her Stacey. She’ll share her story. Welcome, Stacy.

Stacey: Thank you. It’s great to be here.

Anne: Can you start at the beginning? Did you recognize your husband’s behaviors as abuse when you began your relationship with him?

Stacey: No, not at all. You were the first one that made me ever consider it abusive, just from listening to your podcasts. Before that, it had never even crossed my mind

Anne: Let’s start with that. What types of behaviors were you experiencing that led you to want some help? What made you think,”My husband is lying to me?”

Stacey: Well, he had an affair. About five years after the affair, things weren’t moving forward. I couldn’t figure out why. And that is the first time I heard the term gaslighting. And that’s when I started to search more for answers. I realized the extent of what had happened, and how I had been emotionally, psychologically, and spiritually abused. Just the extreme gaslighting that had gone on and was still going on.

Anne: Had that gaslighting and manipulation happened throughout your whole marriage? Once you knew what you were looking at and looked back, did you recognize it had been happening the whole time?

Stacey: For sure. I discovered he was looking at online explicit material just about a month after we married. And I think that’s when I realized I didn’t marry who I thought I had. But I felt stuck, because the next day after I found out he was looking at it, I found out I was pregnant. And that’s when I just thought, there’s nothing I can do, I’m stuck.

Manipulation & Lies

Anne: So what persona had he crafted to manipulate you?

Stacey: Well, he’s super spiritual, and we did all the religious things. I just thought I married a spiritual, religious, truthful person. I didn’t think he was capable of the lies and betrayal that ensued.

Anne: So how long between discovering it and when you discovered the affair? That you figured he was lying. Was that, I’m guessing, like 10 years or something?

Stacey: Yeah, 10 years.

Anne: Oh, see, I’ve become a psychic now that I’ve been doing this for so long. So 10 years, and how did you discover the affair?

Stacey: Our marriage was just falling apart. I could not explain why. And I couldn’t figure out what was wrong. I thought it was me. He called me mean throughout our marriage. And also unattractive. Stuff like that. So I thought, you know, it’s just me. We ended up moving. I thought maybe it was our neighborhood and we moved across the state.

And after we moved, nothing changed, and it still kept falling apart. Then I heard him one time on the phone, and he was talking to someone. I heard him saying things that just really sounded wrong. Like he said, you know, we just met the wrong way. We can’t continue our relationship, we just started wrong, and I’m like, oh my gosh, he’s talking to a girl, and he is having an affair. My husband is lying to me.

Because it had crossed my mind, and I had brought it up to him before, asking him if he had an affair. I said, my brother and his friend actually said it sounds like you’re having an affair.

Uncovering The Affair

Stacey: He was so defensive about it and was like, I can’t believe your brother would ever accuse me of that. That’s so ridiculous. I can’t believe you’d ever think that. And now looking back, he was having an affair at that exact moment. My husband was lying to me. But he was so good at making me think I was crazy to even consider that.

So anyway, I overheard him on the phone and I thought, Oh my gosh, he is having an affair. And he turned the corner and saw me listening to him, and his face just said it all. It just said it all, but he talked his way out of it. I said, who are you talking to? And he just stared at me. And then finally, like a half an hour later, he finally answered and said, it was the guy from work. I just feel bad.

Because I was talking about me and you, and how we started wrong, and how we were just friends and shouldn’t have gotten married, but that was my first clue. And then later on, I found him texting her about a month later.

Anne: It took him a minute to figure out a story to tell you that he thought you would believe. One that made you look bad.

Stacey: Absolutely.

Anne: Let’s talk about that stare for a minute. He just stares at you in space, right, for a little bit. Kind of a lack of blinking, would you say? Sort of a flat affect on his face?

Stacey: Yeah, absolutely.

Anne: Had you seen that ever in your marriage before?

Stacey: I guess from time to time. I can recognize it now for what it was.

My Husband Is Lying To Me: The Narcissistic Stare

Stacey: To me, it’s so obvious now, looking back on it. Like, of course, he’s trying to come up with a story. My husband is lying to me. Why wouldn’t he just answer me if he didn’t have anything to hide? But I wanted his story to be true. So I would accept it, because it was so much easier to think, okay, ah, he’s not having an affair. It’s okay. It’s just me. I’m the one that needs to change.

Anne: I saw this stare recently with a neighbor kid. Which I thought was interesting. So he had been singing a very off-color song, and my son picked up on it and he was singing it. I’m not sure he knew what he was saying, my son. So when this neighbor kid came over, I said, “Hey, that song is not okay.”

You cannot sing it around my kids. You shouldn’t be singing it at all. This is a nine year old kid. He stares at me with this blank stare for a minute, for a while, doesn’t say anything, nothing. And then after, I don’t know how long, he says, “Oh, that song, that song’s about social distancing.”

And I was like, no, that’s a lie. That’s not true. You just took a minute to come up with what you thought was a plausible story. But that’s not the truth. You need to go home. And I sent him home. Because I was done. This is ridiculous. I think it’s interesting that an adult man, 40 years old, 50 years old, is still doing that.

Stacey: Right.

Anne: And thinking, okay, if I don’t make any moves, like no sudden movements, right?

Seeking Help & Finding BTR.ORG

Anne: I need to get my story straight. They’re not thinking about you in that moment. How they hurt you or anything about you. All they’re thinking is what is she going to believe? It takes some energy when your husband lies to you.

That’s why they’re sort of frozen there for a second, because there’s a lot happening inside their head. And they’re trying to keep their face pretty still, so they don’t give anything away while they’re working out how they’re gonna lie to you. Or they’re working out how to manipulate you.

Stacey: Absolutely.

Anne: Yeah. I’ve heard that called like a narcissistic stare before. I’m going to call it the stare of a liar.

Stacey: Yeah, yeah, cause it’s a definite look.

Anne: Many women have seen this over the years, but they don’t know what to make of it. And they don’t know what they’re looking at, right? When they see it. So five years go by after this affair. And things are just not getting better. And then you go looking for help. How did you find Betrayal Trauma Recovery?

Stacey: I went to just Apple podcasts and searched for betrayal trauma. And that was the same time too. It took about five years to ever even hear the word betrayal trauma. I had been to plenty of counselors, religious counselors and leaders. I’d been to groups that my church put on. I hadn’t heard of betrayal trauma before either.

The Role Of Pornography

Anne: After that initial incident, where you found out about it a month after you were married. Did you see any other use, or that was it? And then he hid it well after that.

Stacey: What he would do is let me in on enough truth that it would pass, because my husband is lying. So I always knew he had a online explicit material problem or would view it, but he would say. I look at it once, every three to six months, and that’s all. I don’t have a problem. Or every once in a while he’d talk to our religious leader and he would tell me that, and so I thought, oh okay, he’s honest with me, I didn’t know he was lying to me.

And I used to say, “You know, if you look at it, tell me or if you’re struggling, let’s talk about it.” But it was interesting, because in our relationship he rarely initiated intimacy, he just wasn’t affectionate. And I’d always think, what is wrong with me? Everyone else I hear about their husband can’t keep their hands off of them. What’s wrong with me and come to find out he was looking at it more than he was saying. My husband is lying to me. He was masturbating once a week.

And he had never brought that up, so it’s like taking care of himself. And not interested in an emotional relationship with someone else.

My Husband Is Lying To Me: It’s Either Too Much Or Not Enough With A User

Anne: Your experience is actually more common when it comes to a user. So many women think , he just wants it all the time because he’s into this gross stuff. I would say generally speaking, you get one or the other. Someone who wants to have it, like, more than is healthy. And then the other situation where they just don’t seem interested, they don’t initiate, they’re not planning dates. They’re not interested in you as a person.

Like, they don’t get you gifts for Christmas. Where it’s like, who am I to you? I remember asking my ex once, while we were married, how do you show me that you care? And he had that blank look on his face for a minute, and then guess what he said? I mow the lawn.

Stacey: Oh.

Anne: And I was like, you mow the lawn anyway. You, you would mow it for yourself. So that’s not a thing. Did you go down the addiction recovery route for a while? When you found out, “My husband is lying to me.”

Stacey: Not at first. I thought everyone looks at it, and he just does it sometimes. During that time, after I found out about use before I found out about the affair. My sister-in-law left my brother over it. And I talked to her and said, “This is so ridiculous that you’re leaving him over this.” I got really mad, and it ruined our relationship. And now looking back. Wow, I have a different view now. We went to addiction recovery after I found out about the affair.

Programs As A Grooming Tool

Anne: Is this with the church, like a church program? Okay, did you find his behaviors got any better, that he used to groom you?

Stacey: A little bit, yeah. He did go to addiction recovery group a little bit, like throughout the course of our marriage, but he would just kind of go to a meeting here and there, and then he would say he didn’t need it. And it wasn’t helpful to him. But when we started going after the affair, it made a little difference, not a lot.

Anne: And I would say that was grooming. Where you think it helped a little bit would be that he could use the language he learned there to groom you a little bit. He was able to weaponize those things to make you feel like he was getting better when he actually wasn’t. It is another case of, “My husband is lying to me.”

Stacey: Yes, totally.

Anne: We find that therapy, addiction recovery, even clergy meetings, if they want to hide their behaviors. They’re going to use that to groom, and they’re going to learn the language. Some guys even use the language of mindfulness. Or yoga, or I’m so emotionally healthy. Like, I think a real red flag on any dating platform is that someone says they’re interested in emotional health. They had a woman partner who was like, hey, we need to be healthy.

And they’ve been to therapy, learned the language and weaponized it. Because if you meet a man who’s like, “Oh, my previous spouse was emotionally unhealthy. She wasn’t caring. She wasn’t this, she wasn’t that.” Then that new partner will be like, well, I’m caring. I’m understanding. And that is just grooming right out of the gate.

Weaponizing Therapy Language

Anne: They like weaponizing this therapy language, the recovery language, like, I’m not the enemy, online explicit material is the enemy.

Stacey: Right.

Anne: I’m not the enemy, Satan is the enemy. And I agree, Satan is the enemy, and online explicit material is the enemy, but you are on that side. You’re behind enemy lines. You’re dangerous to me. Because, “My husband is lying to me.”

Stacey: Yeah, it’s interesting what you’d say about him using therapy language, because he would use these terms. And it would drive me crazy. Because I’m like, you sound like a record, like you just learned these terms, and now you’re going to use them on me. I just felt like, not a human. I’m, no, I’m a human with emotions. You can’t just use these pre-recorded terms with me.

Anne: So we come from the same faith tradition, where we believe Satan tried to overthrow God in the pre-existence before we came to earth. In our faith tradition, we believe Satan understands God’s plan. Like he understands the commandments. He understands all of it. He just doesn’t apply any of it. And I think that’s what these guys are like. They understand the therapy language, and all the clergy stuff.

They read the Bible, and know all the scriptures. But it doesn’t actually lead them to repentance. Similar to Satan. He knows all these things. He just doesn’t ever repent. It never changes, and I think without the application, without actually having a change of heart. And actually being converted. Of course Satan’s gonna stay the same no matter what he knows.

My Husband Is Lying To Me: Spiritual Abuse & Counseling

Anne: So the scary thing about addiction recovery, therapy, reading your scriptures more or anything like that is that if you’re not going to apply them. You just become more and more dangerous.

Stacey: Absolutely.

Anne: So when did you realize that common marriage advice, Christian marriage advice, like love, serve, forgive, be understanding. When did you realize that that was not working? When you knew “My husband is lying to me.”

Stacey: Right after I found out about the affair, we started going to a counselor. He actually said, “Okay, what happened is not good, but we’re gonna move forward now.” And he said to me, “You can never talk about the past. I don’t want you to bring it up. When you do, you’re just damaging your future, if you bring up the past to your husband.” He actually told my husband, if I wouldn’t stop talking about it, that he could just get up and leave and like …

Anne: What?

Stacey: … leave me. This is a counselor.

Anne: He doesn’t know that stonewalling is apparently emotional and psychological abuse, I guess, this guy.

Stacey: It is horrible, horrible. And my husband, of course, loved this counselor. And so when I would talk about the past, he’s like, “No, you’re burning down the cornfield.” This is what he said. He said, “You have a cornfield, and every time you talk about the past, you burn it down, and then you guys have to start over.” So it was really on me. And it wasn’t on my husband at all. It was like, okay, you made a mistake. Let’s move forward. You’re forgiven.

Family & Spiritual Pressure

Stacey: He was from the same faith background we were from, and also our religious leader at church had referred this counselor. So my husband was stuck on the religious aspect of this religious leader referred him. So he must be who we need to go to. And I kept saying like, this is not helpful. This is damaging.

Anne: Let’s talk about the spiritual abuse. So here you are being lied to by your husband and abused psychologically and emotionally. With your counselor, who is a religious counselor, with your bishop, who is your religious leader.

So you’re being abused by these men who are trying to tell you what your experience is and trying to coerce you into thinking that you’re not being abused. Did you get it from family? Like, were you facing spiritual abuse on all sides?

Stacey: Not necessarily from family, but I have to say that not one family member has ever told me that maybe I should leave my husband. Everyone has brought into the situation, forgive, what would Jesus do. It’s all, repent, read your scriptures, pray, God will get you through this.

Anne: What would Jesus do? I’m always thinking. He says, depart from the wicked, is what he says. He says, separate yourselves from wickedness. So, what would Jesus do? He would say, get thee hence.

Stacey: Yeah.

Anne: So, I need to get myself hence from this.

Finding Validation In BTR.ORG

Anne: When you found Betrayal Trauma Recovery, is this like a revelation?

Stacey: I can’t even tell you, just listening to your podcast and feeling like I’m not crazy. Second of all, I’m not alone. There are other people who have been through this, because it’s such a lonely place to be. There aren’t many people you can talk to. I feel like it’s so hard, even though it is my story. It’s not only my story. So I can’t talk about the truth about him to everyone, because then I tarnish my husband or make him look bad. Like, nobody knows what’s going on.

Because you can’t talk about it. So it’s such a lonely place. When my husband is lying to me. And then for me, all these therapists will make me feel even worse. So just to have someone I could connect with just to listen to podcasts and feel like I’m not alone. And wow, I’m not crazy. That was so, so big.

Anne: I’m so happy you found us. We always want women to find us, because when you’re in that fog of abuse and being abused from all sides. It is so hard to figure out what’s going on. And even if you want to tell people. I’m not saying you should. But let’s just say you got it in your mind. That you were going to get up in your meeting and from the pulpit, say, everyone, I’m being psychologically abused. They wouldn’t believe you.

So you can start telling people, but then people just look at you like you’re crazy. So it’s so nice to be part of a community where you’re immediately believed. And not just believed, you don’t even have to explain it. We just get it, it’s so freeing.

My Husband Is Lying To Me: The Power Of Community

Anne: And then I think the more we validate each other and empower each other, the stronger we get over time. And then it makes it so much easier to see it. And helps us make decisions about what to do to get to safety. When “my husband is lying to me.”

Stacey: Absolutely.

Anne: The purpose of this podcast is not to proselyte. We’re all here sharing from our own experience. So the point of me talking to her is sharing my own experience and views. And we respect that everyone has different views around here. As you’ve heard on the podcast, women come from all religions, different paradigms, or no religion. Everyone is welcome here.

So where are you now in your situation? Do you feel like you’ve established some peace? Or do you feel like you’re still being cycled through the abuse?

Stacey: It’s still a cycle. I have established more peace. And definitely recognized my relationship for what it is. I can recognize patterns and behaviors. That before I wouldn’t have recognized what they were. But it’s really hard. It’s so hard. I’ve never been able to make a concrete decision to stay or go. Sometimes I almost wish I could find him in another affair, so that I could have that reason of, okay, I can leave.

But right now it’s like this in between, where I feel like exactly what you’re saying earlier. He’s aware of what he needs to do, but he hasn’t fully made that commitment. He still blames me. It’s so hard. I have kids, and now it’s been seven years.

Anne: Seven years since the affair?

Stacey: Yeah.

Anne: Okay.

Impact On Children

Stacey: And sometimes I think back, wow, what if I would have been strong enough to just leave then? Well, how different would my kids’ lives be? I’ve been so intent on giving them married parents and a family. And then I think back and I’m like, “Wow, maybe I’ve made a big mistake staying together.” Especially since my husband is lying to me.

And modeling this kind of behavior to my kids of what’s okay in a relationship, that’s really hard. So I’m in this limbo where I just never am fully committed to stay or go.

Anne: It’s really hard. Many women have prayed to know, do I stay or go? And then many women avoid praying about it because they don’t want an answer. Because either answer is terrible. Number one, if it’s stay, then you have to stay in an abusive place. Number two, is that God telling you to stay? Because I’ve had so many women say, I prayed about it, and God wants me to stay. And I’m thinking, I’m not here to doubt your spiritual impressions.

But simultaneously, the abuse messes with women’s minds so much that sometimes they can’t even ferret out what they’re feeling. And what they’re feeling is it feels bad to divorce. So they’re feeling like, I know when I think about divorce, it feels wrong. That must not be right. So I guess God’s telling me to stay married? And with that, I want to say, no, no, no.

If the answer you’re getting is this terrible, awful feeling when you think about divorce. That does not mean God is telling you not to divorce. And the reason why is because divorce will feel bad no matter what.

The Impact Of Abuse On Decision Making

Anne: I would encourage women to consider that if you get a terrible, awful feeling when you think about divorce. Consider that it is not God telling you not to do it. After you say, okay, no matter what, it’s going to feel awful. Then how do you sort out what God wants you to do? And I have no idea.

Stacey: I don’t either.

Anne: I just don’t want the abuse to make the decision. Because the abuse is, you’re not good enough, you can’t do it, all these things in your head. That have been in your head forever, that you don’t even realize aren’t even you. They’re just shadows of the abuse from over time. So it’s very, very hard to sort out what to do. When your husband is lying to you. But I do think God will lead, direct and guide us as we make our way toward safety.

And if we say, hey, this is what I want. I want a peaceful, happy life. Please guide me and direct me toward that. What do you want me to do? What’s my next step? I think he’ll guide us wherever he wants us to go. But just as a wholesale overview of that bad feeling. You’ll feel that regardless, even if divorce is the best thing for you.

So all of you listeners now that are like, well, I was thinking about divorce, now that you said that. As a woman of faith, I believe God has a path and way to safety for you. I just don’t know what that looks like.

My Husband Is Lying To Me: Using The Living Free Workshop

Anne: And that’s why I developed the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. And this is where we get to take a sigh of relief, that there are safety strategies that work well. And if you know what they are before making these decisions, they can help you get to safety one safe step at a time. The Living Free Workshop helps women realize what type of character their husband has. And thought, boundary, and communication strategies to keep you safe. When “my husband is lying to me.”

These strategies work, whether you’re married or divorced, to give you enough space to observe what’s going on. I’ve seen so many miracles in so many women’s lives and in my own life. He’s there for us, but it’s hard and scary.

Stacey: Yeah, I like the idea of just kind of praying for the next step, just one step at a time.

Anne: Have you reconciled with your sister-in-law, your brother’s ex-wife?

Stacey: No, they ended up getting divorced, and I haven’t talked to her in years. I think about it and I’m kind of scared. Just how the relationship was left, but I think I should just go and tell her I’m sorry for the things I assumed and now have such a different view.

Anne: That might be an interesting first step.

Stacey: I like that.

Anne: To tell her that you’re sorry and didn’t know what you didn’t know, and now you’re in the same boat and don’t know what to do.

Stacey: Yeah. That’s a good idea.

Anne: Was she ostracized? Did your brother lie about her?

Stacey: Oh, yeah. So much, and he never took responsibility for his actions.

The Blame Game In Relationships

Stacey: The whole reason he used online explicit material was her fault. And I’ve never heard him say otherwise. It was because she didn’t want to have it with him, or she wasn’t interested in it as much as he was. And so he had no other option. It was just what he had to do.

Anne: Yeah, I’m so entitled to it that I have to have it. This is my wife’s job.

Stacey: Right, and if she won’t do it, it’s entirely her fault. They’ve been divorced ten years now , and nothing’s changed.

Anne: Did he get remarried?

Stacey: No, neither of them did.

Anne: Your brother’s an abuser.

Stacey: Yeah, I’ve got them all around me. Now that I can see it for what it is. A lot of the men in my life are, absolutely.

Anne: Now that you see that, have you noticed any men that are healthy?

Stacey: Sometimes I think, do they even exist? Like, are there mentally stable men out there? I’m trying to think.

Anne: That question is also scary. And the reason why that’s scary is that you’re going to need help. And if you don’t have healthy people in your life and can see it for what it is, it’s scary to start doing that on your own.

Stacey: Absolutely.

Anne: Many women, once they figure out what abuse is, they’re think, “I don’t know a man who’s not abusive”. I’m happy to say that I have several men in my life that are not abusive but supportive. And the more I learn about abuse, the more I’ve been able to recognize healthy men.

The Reality of Abuse Statistics

Anne: Of course, I’m not married to them. So I don’t know for sure. But in terms of my interaction, and then also what their wives say about them. I think there are healthy men out there, is what I’m trying to say. I also think they’re not common. In the state where you and I live, one out of every three women has experienced physical abuse. So then emotional and psychological abuse, even more. The statistics are that eight out of every ten men in our state use it.

Stacey: Wow.

Anne: So then you’re looking at 8 out of every 10 men as an abuser essentially. Is willing to manipulate, willing to lie, willing to throw somebody under the bus to save their own reputation.

Stacey: Scary statistics.

Anne: If you could go back and talk to your younger self now that you know what you know from listening to the podcast and being a member of our community, what would you tell her?

Stacey: I wish she could see her worth and know that she’s a worthy person, without someone else needing to tell her that she is. I wish I could tell her to recognize red flags, like my husband is lying to me, and see them for what they are. There are so many red flags looking back. Even if I saw them, I think deep down it’s like I’ve never felt like I deserved better. That’s sad.

My Husband Is Lying To Me: The Value Of Women In Faith

Anne: In our faith tradition, we have this theme, we stand up in the young women’s organization and recite. It says, “I am a beloved daughter of heavenly parents with a divine nature and eternal destiny. As a disciple of Jesus Christ, I strive to become like him. I seek to act upon personal revelation and minister to others in his holy name. I will stand as a witness of God at all times.

I will stand as a witness of God at all times, in all things, and in all places.” This is more focused now on service than when we were growing up. Ours was like, I am valuable, yeah. This one actually doesn’t sound like that anymore. So we grew up with this, like I am a valuable daughter of God. Why do you think that didn’t sink in for us? Especially when you realize my husband is lying to me.

Stacey: Why? I think sometimes if you just recite something over and over, you don’t really spend the time to think about what you’re saying.

Anne: I also think it’s how we were treated.

Stacey: Oh yeah, absolutely.

Anne: So if they say you’re so valuable, but then you’re not actually treated as you’re valuable, like they’re not listening to your opinion. They’re not believing you. They’ll pay for your brother to go to college, but they won’t pay for you to go to college. Your brother can choose a career of any of these 5,000 careers, and you need to pick a teacher. Because then you would have the summers off for your kids, and you need to cook, sew, clean and do laundry.

Dealing With Stereotypical Gender Roles & Self Worth

Anne: And your duties are relegated to childcare, cleaning, cooking, and he, what does he want to do? He gets to be an engineer, an astronaut, like what are his dreams and hopes? And yours should be laundry, so I don’t know what, you know, like nobody ever says like, what do you want to do with your life?

Stacey: No.

Anne: Like what are you interested in? Who are you as a person? What talents has God given you apart from he’s given you the ability to be a mother, right? So it’s like were you actually treated like you were valuable, and so in our hearts and minds we’re thinking okay, we’re valued. But we’re only valued if we look like this, or if we do this thing, and if we do it well. And you know what, I’m not super great at cooking brownies.

So maybe I’m not as valuable as the congregation brownie baker. I just wonder if that’s part of it. The way that we internalize the culture around us. Oh, this is how you get valued as a woman. If you want it, you’ve got to be cute, you’ve got to be in shape, and you have to play the harp.

Stacey: It’s so true, that’s interesting you bring that up, because a week ago at church we had a lesson about things of value, and how we treat things differently on how much we value them. And we came home from church, and I said to my husband, I don’t feel valued. As a wife, as a human. For me, it was such a big epiphany. To just think, I’ve spent these last 20 years with someone who doesn’t value me. My husband is lying to me.

The Struggle With Misogyny

Anne: They don’t cherish us.

Stacey: Right, yeah, how differently would my life turn out if I was with someone that valued me, truly?

Anne: That’s why we have to learn to value ourselves, because nobody’s doing it for us.

Stacey: Right, exactly.

Anne: When we do, and we’re like, no, I’m gonna do this thing. Everybody around us is like, “What? No, no, no. You’re not valuing your husband.” I think the heart of this is also just, flat out misogyny. I think that’s the problem with a lot of the addiction recovery situation, is that they’re not acknowledging this super solid bedrock foundation of misogyny.

Stacey: Absolutely.

Anne: That is so firm, so strong, and so deep that it’s going through the clergy, the therapists, and the community, and it’s making it very difficult for women to value themselves. And then when you start doing it, then you’re the crazy apostate lady. I enjoy that role though. Now in my congregation, I am like the witch lady almost, you know what I mean? Like, don’t let your kids get too close to her. All the while, my husband is lying to me before and after the divorce.

Stacey: How have you been able to keep your faith in your spirituality? That is something I’ve struggled with so much through this. Because I feel like my religion has spiritually manipulated me into feeling like I’m not as much value. I need to forgive, move on. And it’s real. I’ve struggled with my spirituality through this. Is there things that have helped you?

My Husband Is Lying To Me: Personal Scriptures & Divine Deliverance

Anne: In our particular faith, we study from the Bible and also from the Book of Mormon. And I love studying from both of these books about my Savior. And having a tangible book that I can study from and consider what God is telling me has helped me. Sometimes I think like, what am I doing this for? All these men don’t get it. But as I study, I feel God’s love for me.

And the other thing that’s interesting is that both of those books are I think misogynistic at their core due to the historical situation, right? Women aren’t writing them. They’re not interpreting them from the perspective of women. And so that’s another thing that I do. Actually, in my own journal, I pray and ask Heavenly Father what He wants to tell me, and then I write down the impressions I receive. And I consider that my own personal scriptures.

So even though it’s still on that solid seemingly immovable bedrock of misogyny. I do think the Lord’s words come through. The other thing I love about the scriptures is that God does not like wickedness. Over and over, both the Old Testament, the New Testament, the Book of Mormon stories over and over of deliverance.

So the gospel is a gospel of deliverance. The ultimate deliverance would be salvation, returning to live with God. But I also believe He has a deliverance for us here in this life, that he wants us to be delivered from evil. From “my husband is lying to me.”

The Call For Women To Seek Deliverance

Anne: You know, the Israelites were enslaved by evil, by Pharaoh. And they prayed, and they watched, and they hoped for the time they could be delivered. And then when Moses made that possible, they started moving, they started making their way. At that point, they could have just sat there and been like, oh, it’s too hard to get all of our stuff together.

It’s too hard to walk out. Pharaoh’s going to follow us anyway. But they didn’t. They got up, they packed up all their stuff. They started making their way, and Pharaoh followed them. And then the Red Sea parted and they walked through. I mean, can you imagine the faith it took to walk through these two pillars of water? Thinking it could fall on you at any second. I don’t know if I would have been like this, this seems like a bad idea.

You know walking through here, but they did it, and I think God is calling women to do that now. I feel like God is calling women to separate themselves from evil. To have faith, pray for deliverance, hope for deliverance, and start making our way out. And when we see that moment, whenever that is, to pack up our stuff metaphorically speaking. Make our way, and then when he parts that Red Sea, we have to walk through that.

And for me, that was when my ex got arrested. For some women, they have some kind of epiphany. I’m not saying all this leads to divorce. I’m not pro divorce, but I am pro deliverance from evil and I am pro deliverance from abuse. Deliverance from “my husband is lying to me.”

God Delivers Us From Evil

Anne: God seems to call us all to consider deliverance. To separate ourselves from evil. We also know in the last days that there’ll be a big separation. A separation of good and evil, the wheat and the tares. I think that’s happening now. And the easiest place to do that is in our own homes to ensure that our home is a place of peace. And that’s confusing, because at church, when they talk about, separate yourself from evil.

They never talk about it in terms of your own home. They’re always talking about it as like the evil in the world. So like these evil people out there. And I’m thinking, I’m not worried about the “evil” people out in the world. I’m already separated from them. So I don’t know what you’re talking about. You know, I’m not like hanging out with them.

The people in my circle are healthy, happy, honest people. So we’re trying to separate ourselves from evil. We need to look in our own six foot radius.

Stacey: Yeah, that’s big.

Anne: The Lord has a plan for us. I don’t know what it is exactly. I’m just going to do my part. So I just think, I don’t know the answer to so many of these things. Of course, I don’t. Why would I? But I think that’s what’s helped me. I. keep my faith, because I just can’t imagine God doesn’t have a plan for our deliverance. If He’s had a plan for oppressed people’s delivery since the beginning of time.

Stacey: Yeah, that’s something to think about. I like that a lot. It’s good, good stuff. That’s helpful when my husband is lying to me.

My Husband Is Lying To Me: Reconciling Faith & Abuse

Anne: I have many friends who have left their faith, and I don’t blame them. There’s no judgment for me, because I think I don’t know why I still believe and you don’t. But like we’re still sisters. Did your sister-in-law leave the church?

Stacey: Yes, she did, yeah.

Anne: So I think that would be another thing as you attempt to reconcile with her is to have a soft place in your heart for that. And be like, it makes sense that you would do that after all the abuse you suffered from my brother, from my family, from other church members, like, I totally get it. I can see why you would do that. Because that’s going to be a further bridge to reconciliation.

Rather than, like, well, I’m staying in the church because I’m more righteous and have more faith than you. After all the misogyny I’ve experienced and all the terrible things, but somehow I’m a better person than you because I can put up with it or something. Like the women who have said, hey, I am done. I’m not going to listen, you shouldn’t get divorced, you’re a bad person, and stuff like that.

Like, good for you for standing up for yourself. Good for you for saying, I don’t have to take this anymore. I don’t have to take this abuse. I’m not doing this anymore. My husband is lying to me. So in terms of like how I feel about it, I think every woman can make her own way to safety in whatever way that looks like for her. And sometimes, frankly, I’m confused about why I still believe, like I do.

Exposure Of Abuse & Lies

Anne: I’ve suffered tons of oppression from men for my views, especially now that the podcast is so big and that I seem very threatening to many therapists or other people. And my views seem threatening. Some people see me as some sort of like ultra crazy podcaster that their wife started listening to. And after she started listening to this whack-a-doodle podcaster, our family was ruined.

Stacey: Well, what’s interesting about that is yes, of course, the husbands don’t like us finding you. Because we find the truth. We understand the abuse for what it is. And when we confront them and say, ah, I listened to this podcast and she said this. So yeah, my husband is not a fan of the podcast because it totally exposes him for what he is, and he doesn’t like that one bit. And my husband is lying to me.

Anne: I become this crazy like an extremist who’s podcasting from my basement, who, you know, believes in aliens. I’m not, I don’t believe in aliens, but I mean people have that view of it, right?

No, actually like this is pretty mainstream, like basic abuse stuff. If you talk to any abuse expert, they’ll be like, yeah, of course. This is not extreme. It’s not out there. There’s nothing about it that is counterculture. I mean, our faith tradition says we do not tolerate abuse. It’s just so, so threatening to an abuser, for a victim to find out the truth about what’s going on.

The Power Of Truth & Self-Worth

Stacey: Yeah, it blows his cover. They can’t get away with what they used to get away with. It’s confusing to them, because behavior that’s worked in the past doesn’t work anymore. Finding out that “my husband is lying to me.” When we can recognize it and see what’s being done and how we’re being manipulated, it has changed my relationship. It has since I’ve started listening to the podcast, and being able to recognize it, and feeling more self worth.

Because of all the gaslighting I have felt like I’m the crazy one, that there’s no validity to my thoughts and emotions. Being able to recognize that my thoughts, emotions, and feelings are valid. It gives me a lot more strength to stand up and recognize that, yeah, I have worth and my thoughts, they’re not crazy. They’re actually less crazy. They’re the truth. That’s what they are. They’re true. My husband is lying to me.

Anne: Well, and from a spiritual perspective, that is God telling you that you are of worth, and listen to that part, listen to how much he loves you and cares about you. And you don’t have to put up with literal chaos and pain coming from someone who enjoys wickedness. We were talking about submission before, like on a previous episode. And essentially, if you listen to your abuser and submit yourself to him.

Okay, I’ll be more available or, okay, I’ll lose weight or, okay, I won’t ask you questions. And I’ll, I don’t know, whatever they want, that’s unrighteous. You’re submitting yourself to evil, which God never asked us to do, ever.

Strength In Numbers

Stacey: Yeah, right.

Anne: The cool thing is the more of us there are, the stronger we become, and the less weird it is. And so we just need to keep walking forward. And when one of us gets to safety, it helps all of us. Thank you so much for spending this time with me today. I appreciate your time.

Stacey: It’s been really healing just to be able to talk about it and express myself. I really appreciate it.