Dr. Joel Rosen:

All right. Hello, everyone. And welcome back to another edition of your adrenal fix where we teach exhausted and burnt-out adults the truth about adrenal fatigue so that we can get your health back quickly. And Part Four really with a mentor, a friend, a colleague, and someone that I re proud to say, I know Morley Robbins. He’s the Creator if you don’t know by now, of the root cause protocol and magnesium advocacy group. And Morley is just always digging down deeper into the rabbit holes.

And I got a text from him the other day telling me that we’re not only overdue for a chat, but he wants to tell me all about her side and how it’s causing utter chaos in the recycling system of the cells. And it’s too good to turn down. So here we are today, Morley. Thanks for joining us today. I appreciate your time.

Morley Robbins: Absolutely. Yeah. No pleasure to be here. And I think, the triad of what creates metabolic confusion would be iron. uric acid, and, and upside, I can’t think of three factors that have more impact on messing up our Mother Nature-driven physiology, which just seems to be disappearing by the minute. But again, we’ve talked at length about the copper-iron dynamic.

And just before we went live here, we were chatting a little bit about uric acid, which we can come back to. I think that uric acid is a stealth metabolite that’s playing in the background of all chronic diseases 100% of it. And there are all sorts of confusion about it being an antioxidant, or prooxidant. Is it? Is it in? Is it a result of our diet as a result of our lifestyle? We can have some really interesting discussions about that. But the thing about the upside is, again, it’s billed as the iron hormone. I’m not, I’m not convinced that. Well, I think what’s important to realize is that it’s a negative regulator, as opposed to a positive regulator.

A negative regulator would well let’s flip it around, the positive regulator would be like your mother in the home, regulating the functions of activity, making sure that kids are getting their homework done. You know, all the daily chores are getting done, people are getting fed, what have you. That’s positive regulation. Negative regulation would be relying on the police to control the chaos in the home.

That’s a negative regulator. And that’s pretty much the way it works in our tissue is that copper is the positive regulator of iron. That’s very well established. Good going back to 1928 with heart steenbok, Waddell, and LVM, you know, all the way to 2021, with Kim and Gonzales saying, Yeah, if copper is missing iron is going to get out of control, especially in the liver. And what appears to be the case is that when copper is deficient, the body has a backup plan. That’s called this negative regulator upside.

And what causes so many of problems for people is when they get a blood test, it can be misinterpreted, the blood that the iron levels in the blood can look low. And the practitioner interprets that as being well which means you have low iron, and in the tissue, below iron in the blood and ine tissue are completely different media.

And, and that’s the reoneering work of Bruce Ames back in 2004, who was able to prove that there’s 10 times more iron in the tissue that is in the blood. But if it looks low in the blood, a lot of practitioners will make a knee-jerk decision to encourage supplementation or even encouraged infusions, which are, I think, I think they’re baison to the body. We can talk more about that. But the very presence of iron supplementation triggers the upside. And what hip site does is it shuts down the iron recycling program. And its target is the thorough report and pathway.

The job wasn’t being an iron doorway, Ferro important. And what it does is it causes an internalization of that pathway and its degradation. So the cell, especially the macrophage, loses the natural ability to allow for iron egress, so that recycling of the iron can continue. Because what’s playing in the background of everyone’s body is the need to turn over two and a half million red blood cells every second. That’s a big deal. Two and a half million, we’ve been talking now for about 15 minutes and time 60, right, times two and a half million. So we’ve been working pretty hard to replace our blood ovover4 hours. It’s a ridiculous number, several billion red blood cells.

But what’s fascinating about that, is it only takes 25 milligrams of iron to support the replacement of 24 hours of red blood cells. So absolutely amazed, 25 milligrams is nothing. And even more amazing is that 24 of those 25 milligrams of iron come from the recycling system. That’s dependent upon the iron circulation, the iron recycling, that’s dependent upon the Federal Court doorway is open. And to keep it open, you need to have a Ferro oxidase enzyme function that’s provided by Cirilo plasmons.

But in this case, it would be a fest named after Festus in the mythology of the forge, the iron Forge, but the point is, when that ferroxidase is not present, it upside and comes in, and bauts down the pathway. And the way I’ve characterized your works with guys, that doesn’t necessarily work with women, but guys who, who know football, know what the linebackers job is, shut down the play.

No, no one did it better than Dick buck in the Chicago Bears. Well, that’s a negative regular, he’s shutting down the play. As opposed to the positive Edgar would be a quarterback. And no better quarterback than Tom Brady. Whether you like him or not, he’s considered the best quarterback of all time. But here’s the positive regulator. See, so basically, you’ve got the body as a positive regulator, and a negative regulator. According to the research, of Rao, or EO and ready from, I think it was 1996. ItThey assertedhat copper deficiency created the creation of upside. It’s a, it’s a response to copper status in the body.

And so a lot of confusion about it. But what makes it even worse, is that there are stimulants and suppressors in our diet that will influence hep Seitens activity. A great suppressor is vitamin D. So again, as if there wasn’t enough confusion about vitamin D, now we find out that it suppresses the level of hip sight. Well, does that sound like a good idea? If the body thinks it needs hip Sidon, and you’re suppressing it? Wow, that’s quite a development. And so, depending upon the food component, you know, sugar and fructose have a completely different effect on the hip side.

And so it’s just we are in this tennis match between what’s stimulating it, what’s suppressing it. And, what I decided in my webinar, took the stance that women that were falling, are falling into the trap of good cholesterol, the bad cholesterol. And what stops the rise of cholesterol is copper. Are we stimulating capsid and suppressing it? Why don’t we just avoid its need, and just focus on copper? And I think it just becomes another example of the genius of the body to use this. under appreciated mineral, it’s the Achilles heel of our physiology and allows it to regulate the result. cleaned up by him.

And then we don’t have to worry about the website. And it’s re’s being billed now, by the hematologist as an iron hormone, regulating iron. And I’m just like, that’s a, hat’s a real stretch. It just doesn’t buy it as a classification, because of the primal role that bioavailable copper plays in regulating iron in our bodies.

Dr. Joel Rosen: So lots of notes here, lots of notes here, because I’m glad and excited to unpack everything that you said there. And I mean, I’m thinking about it, even from my standpoint, okay, there are some confusions that I have. But then if I’m thinking about it from the standpoint of a person that doesn’t know all the x, y’s, and Z’s if we can break that down to them a little bit more succinctly.

So obviously, we’ve talked about the challenge that at the end of the day, if you’re exhausted and you’re tired, and you’re burnt out, you have some assumed guilty until proven otherwise, which would be guilty, problems with the way your body hot potatoes, the regulation of iron, and how it binds to oxygen, and how it makes energy. And I always say, if you’re not using oxygen for you, you’re using it against you. And instead of getting an income, you’re getting an expense, right?

We’ve talked about that in the past. And you’ve also expressed that 95% or more of your, of your hemoglobin or your irons is recycled. Whereas one milligram ideally, or up to 5% of your iron stores are from your food intake, and the body is demanded to recycle that iron. And there are positive and negative regulators to that, morally, just as an aside, one of the ways that I initially found you was by doing a lot of genomic test interpretations.

And I’ll agree that what we’re talking about today takes precedence over genetics. However, I do find that if there are weakened abilities in certain areas, these people are more susceptible to these challenges. I do see a lot of polymorphisms in the TMP RSS 5656, which it plays a critical role in the upside. And so maybe back us up a bit one more time, if you will, just more so for me, and the listeners get a benefit because I’m not clear on it.

Where hep, Sidon is the linebacker, and it is the negative regulator. So if there’s not enough iron, or sorry, not enough copper, to help drive that recycling ability of all these enzymes that help export and move iron out of tissues, then it will shut down the play. But if it can’t shut down the play what happens or maybe kind of go from there?

Morley Robbins: Right? So who’s the battery pack on TMP? So six or whatever, you know.

Dr. Joel Rosen: right? What is it, Marta? It says here, Marta paste, two, is that a Matri? Paste or two?

Morley Robbins: Yeah, Metro pays too right?

Dr. Joel Rosen: It’s getting a little more sophisticated than I know. Sorry.

Morley Robbins: It was copper-dependent. Right. Okay. So again, all of these polymorphisms, I would argue, are reflections of copper deficiency. And if we go back to our first discussion, before we started this dialogue, I was sharing with you that there’s iron building up in the nucleus in the nucleolus. That’s supposed to be regulated by another copper-dependent enzyme called ferrets and heavy chain requires Darrell oxidase. Again, we’re operating with a complete understanding of how copper regulates iron.

And so I hear you loud and clear about the polymorphism. But I would argue that the real origin of the problem I wondering if, if that mechanism isn’t being triggered, because there isn’t adequate copper to open up the federal port doorway. That would be to me there’s like a hierarchy and as you’re talking about income and expense, if the expense starts going up inside the cell, well, then you’re going to trip that. Now, trip up We’re both struggling with the word, the PMP, our SS mechanism. I think that gets triggered by oxidative stress. Right? And so I’m a bit.

Dr. Joel Rosen: I am sorry to interrupt I am a big believer of when I do look at this genomics I’m more concerned about their subjective life, their stress, their exposures, all of the demands of life. However, I find it fascinating that there are certain, let’s call it checkpoints, or checks and balances, where you see more of these polymorphisms to compensate for that problem over here.

What I’m, what I’m extrapolating is the fact that this person is going to be harder hit in this area along the recycling chain, if you will, or they’re gonna need more. So, I mean, it’s still RCEP driven. But I get a little more specific as to Hey, this is where the weak links in the chain are breaking sort of speak. But yeah.

Morley Robbins: And again, if in fact, relevant radio is right about the upside and being triggered by copper deficiency? Well, that means it’s being triggered by oxidative stress. Right. And so then, I would be wondering, what’s happening with uric acid in these bodies, is it building and at some level, it may not be classified as Hyperuricemia? But maybe it’s going up just enough to trigger another threshold of reaction that’s causing hip Sidon to fire off.

And, again, hip Sidon is, to me, it’s a failsafe mechanism. It’s not a, let’s keep the body in a natural regulation. It’s, we have a, we have a problem. We’ve got building expenses, there’s exhaust, and we got to shut this thing down. And it’s a very powerful mechanism.

And so you’ve I think that confusion is from the forces in our diet that can flip upside down in one way or the other. And that, and then that webinar I did a couple of weeks ago, there’s a very specific slide, right, where it’s very clearly indicating who’s increasing upside, whose decreasing or silencing upside. And I think, I think it’s important for people to know that there are components of our diet that can be very powerfully influential in the activity level of upside, that may be involved in these polymorphisms as well.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Gotcha. Okay. So just the end just to so that I’m completely clear on it. If capsid is working effectively, then it’s needed because wcan’tto recycle the iron our recycle and make him and, and make the metabolic energy production that we need what happens as a consequence, is iron gets stuck in tissues, continued ox hydroxyl radicals, like, what’s going on there, when it’s not being when it’s not shutting down, effectively, you’re

Morley Robbins: Going to you’re going to lose energy. As iron builds in the tissue, especially in the mitochondria, you’re going to have a massive loss of energy. When that takes place, then you’ve now you’ve affected the whole process of recycling calcium and recycling the iron and recycling a nseveraltabolites, it’s gonna affect protein metabolism, because nitrogen is not going to be recycled properly, because of the change in urea recycling, but then we’ve got the added impact of iron interacting with the oxygen, oxidative stress is going to go up, well, then you’ve got a greater chance for lipid peroxidation.

And then a greater chance for DNA defects and other breakdowns in the cell. And then you stand the chance of either apoptosis or ferroptosis. Which is this arc, clean, desperate this still it’s the death of the cell because it was taking place inside the tissue or the cellular structure. So the thing is, as soon as you’ve got this dysregulation, of iron, it begins to have a compound effect with its interaction with not just the oxygen, but the effect of the oxidant on the DNA, the lipids, and the proteins. Right, right. Right.

Dr. Joel Rosen: So so as far as an I’m just thinking of how to put this all together. So you mentionet the metabolic confusion and talking about the hip side and the iron and the uric acid. And now we sort of brought in vitamin D in that component too. I guess where do you want to go from here? Morally? What’s the natural next thing to talk about?

Morley Robbins: Well, we just add, I’m looking into, you know, can we easily measure hip, Sidon, and uric acid? As components? I know we can. Is it? Is it cost prohibitive? I don’t know, I’m gonna be having some discussions with the lab about that. But I think it’s what is important is to raise people’s awareness about this dynamic, that it’s contributing to the confusion about iron. That may be, again, when Iron starts to get locked up in the tissue. That’s anemia of chronic inflammation.

That is not an AMI of iron deficiency. Yeah, it’s low in the blood, I get that. But there’s no easy way to measure iron in the tissue, other than a needle biopsy, or Tesla two MRIs. Both of these are doable, but they’re not convenient. They’re not. And they’re not exactly cheap, either. But the thing is, I think there needs to be greater awareness about the recycling program, the fact that it can be affected by hip Sidon, the fact that hip side is influenced by copper status, and that this dynamic of slowing down the recycling system causes what’s called chronic inflammation.

What’s the biggest stimulant for chronic inflammation, uric acid, if you want to, if you want to introduce inflammation into the tissue, expose it to uric acid, and it’s an absolute lock. And what’s uric acid tied to you know, all forms of metabolic syndrome, all heart disease, diabetes, neurodegeneration, cancer is now being classified as an extension of uric acid.

So I think it’s important for people to realize that inflammation is not our friend. And it’s leading to dysregulation of iron that is showing up as low iron in the blood, and is leading to incorrect direct recommendations to either supplement or infuse iron, which I’m just vehemently opposed to. It doesn’t make sense. So I think in light of that, it’s good to raise awareness. Maybe we just make a pivot and go down that bunny trail of vitamin D having that impact on the upside. Maybe we should revisit this vitamin D thiin.

And now we’ve got added impetus to at least question the narrative about vitamin D. I was reading an interesting article. Earlier this week, there was talking about the recognized antagonism between vitamin A and vitamin D. And it was relating to I’m gonna get it was related to CD 36, I believe, and another CD, and I’m blanking on the number, I apologize for that. But the point it was raising is that there’s a natural antagonism between those two metabolites. So that’s been my position all along, is that I’m not opposed to vitamin D. I know it’s important. It’s relative to everything else.

And what I’m vehemently opposed to, is this idea that everyone’s vitamin D deficient, because people don’t know how vitamin D is made. And people don’t seem to understand the difference between storage D and activity. So I came up with an analogy recently. Storage D is a parked car. It’s a storage metabolite. It’s not supposed to be in our blood. It was supposed to be in the liver for heaven’s sake. And so what is active D? Well, that’s a car on the autobahn. And what do you do when you’re on the autobahn? Did you get to have a driver? That’s VDR. And you got to have a navigator. And that’s our XR. And what’s important for people to know is it. There are all sorts of accolades being assigned to vitamin D. But it’s not being assigned to the parking park cars. It’s being assigned to the car horses that are on the autobahn. They’re active.

They’ve got VDR. They’ve got arcs are, well, how do you get VDR? You better have extra magnesium. And how do you get arcs are you better have retinol. And people don’t realize that it’s a triad that stimulates our immune system. It is not storage D, the parked car, it’s the act of D on the autobahn. And what people are failing to recognize is that active D is static and does very little variation of levels of activity in our body. Storage D fluctuates with the season.

We’re entering the winter season where there’s not as much light except for you smart people down in Florida. But when there’s less light, what happens storage D goes down. Why? Because the body says we don’t want to block that light. During the summer. There’s more sunlight, lots more sunlight. And what happens is storage D goes up. Why?

Because it’s blocking the sunlight. Storage D, the parked car is sunglasses. And people can’t seem to understand the role that storage D has, which is very different than the role of active D. And what’s happened? My theory is that they’ve transposed the accolades that should be assigned to active D which has never been measured by practitioners. They’ve transposed it to storage D and the storage D is blocking the uptake of vitamin A. And, and we can have a very rousing conversation about why Retinol is important.

And what I do, as you will knowbyof our conversations, I, I put everything into an energy time, energy, a paradigm is this metabolite increasing energy in our body. Guess what the role of Vitamin D is relative to energy production. There isn’t one, there is no function, the Vitamin D plays to increase energy by vitamin A completely different vitamin A. According to Hambling 2016.

There is something there’s a mechanism there’s a four-part mechanism that resides between complex three and complex for the mitochondria. And it’s called the signal. And the signal ism is where electrons move from complex very to complex and the electrons ride the carbon tail of retinol to get from three to four. And if Retinol is not present, what happens? It’s called the Warburg effect.

And what is the Warburg effect? It’s where the body stops using oxygen to metabolize fuel, and goes anaerobic and ferments fuel. Fermentation, as you well know, is producing two units of energy. When in fact, when you oxidize sugars, you’re going to get 34 ATP, and the oxidized fats, you’re going to get 140 were designed to burn fat. That’y the preferred fuel. And if Retinol is not in our diet, and it’s not in our mitochondria, we’re not going to move the electrons as efficiently.

When did they first identify retinol deficiency as the cause of cancer? Montrose T burrows 1925 And he had four articles in 1926. And other scientists have made that assertion what’s the cutting-edge treatment for cancer today? Iron chelation therapy coupled with retinol therapy. Interesting. Let’s get rid of that Warburg effect. What else does vitamin A do? It’y critical for the microbiome. For the proper balance of good guys and bad guys.

People don’t realize that retinol has a completely suppressive effect on E. coli And so So my point is, we could go on for an hour talking about all the things that retinol does. But I think it’s important for people to realize that increased focus and intake of vitamin D suppresses the uptake of vitamin A. And we live in a

kind of this mono-focus world in that I can only think about one thing at a time. So people worry about their health, and they think they need more vitamin D. They’re not thinking about the dynamic interplay between the metabolites, they’re not thinking about the reason why the vitamin D may be low, which is debatable, because the range, the reference range of 30 to 100, is the creation of one person, Michael Holick, up at Boston University.

But the point is, in toke them, storage D, the parked car, you got to have magnesium, working with an enzyme found in the liver. And if magnesium isn’t present at optimal levels, enzymes aren’t going to function properly. Well, what would cause magnesium to not be present enough in the liver, is the buildup of iron, it’s a known fact that iron will cause magnesium Ross and the liver. Well, what causes iron to build up in the liver? Well, it’s back to heart steam back with LLVM 1920.

Deny an animal copper, and iron will rise in its liver, and it will also rise in its spleen. They just zeroed in on the liver, it turns out that the spleen is probably a bigger storage depot for iron than even the liver is. But it’s all of this is a far cry from what people think, Oh, I’ve got to get vitamin D to build up my immune system. And what does the literature say? It suppresses the immune system, it doesn’t stimulate it.

And what does vitamin A do? It Downregulates the immune system, and suppressing the immune system is not a good thing. And I’m afraid what we’re going to find downstream, we’re beginning to see evidence of it now. But I think it’s gonna get worse. Over the next couple of years. I think we’re going to witness as a result of the overriding focus on vitamin D. We are going to the impact that has on retinol in the body, I think we’re gonna witness an alarming rise in cancer around the planet, and we’re beginning to see evidence of it. I think it’s gonna get a lot worse over the next two to three years.

And again, the part that everyone should question is, when conventional doctors and alternative doctors are both recommending the same thing. People should stop and say, Wait a minute, that doesn’t make sense to me. And they didn’t do that. And so there’s a lot, of research out there. That clerelates vitamin D status to some health outcomes. Well, you know, as well, as I knew that, that correlation is not causation.

Do flies cause garbage? No, do firemen cause fires? No. But they certainly seem to be there, when there’s garbage and fire. And it’s just the confusion about how these variables show up at the same time, but they’re not causal. And I just, think that my whole stance on vitamin D goes back to 2010 when I met a very important figure, Dr. Kumerow Fedco, a famous lipid biologist at the University of Illinois, downstate Illinois, Champaign Urbana.

He was 98 years old when I met him. Just a luminary and we’re having lunch in his home. He’s telling me about this famous speech that he gave at a conference international conference in the 80s. Just as vitamin D was becoming popular, and he told people based on a decade of research with pigs, he told people, Ladies Gentlemen, you do not supplement with vitamin D says it’s not advised.

And you can imagine the pushback that took place. And I asked him, I said, Dr. Kimbrough, what happened as a result of that Speech. Again, you got a picture of this guy as he was bigger than I am. He’s like six, two, very, very vital. the twinkle in his eye. He leans forward, he says, well, Morley, I’m the only one left standing. All the others are dead. So he was a geek and he lived to be 102 and died near his second birthday, right after his second birthday. But the thing is, this is a very disruptive message in an era where people are freaked out about this condition that everyone’s worrying about.

And I haven’t backed down one iota. I think that vitamin D is D stands for deception. The D stands for disinformation, the D stands for dysfunction inside the body, and the D stands for For dysregulation of retinol metabolism. And it’s just it’s not a popular stance, people find it almost offensive. But I’ve read a few articles. And there’s compelling evidence that there’s way more to the story than what Dr. Holick is trying to convince the world. And I wasn’t at all convinced by what emerged with COVID.

And I think the dynamic with COVID. And vitamin D, is what it did, to hip sight. And somehow that mechanism of shutting down hip Sidon, I think prevented the iron release that was meant to take place. And again, it starts to get into some pretty esoteric physiology, that I think it’s beyond both our pay grades. But I think that’s the mechanism that makes the most sense to me that the other side of it that I should point out. I think I did share this webinar, people need to know that there’s a day identical structure between COVID SPIKE protein and hip side.

That’s a real nerve, a lot of people. And if that’s the case, well, then it would make sense that vitamin D would shut that down. But what you need to understand is that the hip side is a byproduct of copper deficiency, well, there’s a whole nother way to solve that problem. And to drown yourself in vitamin D, which is going to affect retinol, which is going to affect the bioavailability of your copper.

So it’s just a completely different paradigm of, of logic, the different philosophy of how the body is run. And I think people need they just need to decide, do they believe that or not? And if they do, then adopt that philosophy, if they don’t move on? And do what both the conventional, and the alternatives are telling you to do, which should make you very nervous.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, there’s a lot there. Morally, I think I, you know, when you get information overload, if you go to like, I don’t do this, but if you went to the Cheesecake Factory, there’s, you know, 25 different pages, and there are 20 items on each page. I’m the type of person who as soon as I see one thing that I know that I want, I’ll get it, and I don’t read through all the other stuff.

And I think I did that with vitamin A and vitamin D, as soon as I understood the idea and concept that storage D blocks absorption of a or too much D blocks absorption of a that doesn’t allow the act of D to get into the cell. I didn’t need any more information. I was ready to order what I wanted to order and I didn’t need to go through all the different pages if you will. Does that make

Morley Robbins: Sense? Well, it doesn’t make sense. And I think the problem that people have is they don’t know how important and powerful Retinol is in our immune system. They’ve been conditioned that vitamin D runs the immune system, and it doesn’t. And it’s it is an interplay between the two. And there’s a reason why our ancestors use cod liver oil relied on cod liver oil to stay healthy.

And there’s a significant variation in the amount of retinol in cod liver oil to vitamin D, in some cases is 10 to one, the jigsaw brand, the Alaskan brand of Carnival is 20 to one it’s 20 times more retinol than in vitamin D and that product is like and there’s a reason why those Alaskan cod need that extra retinol. And it’s just people are not. They they have an incomplete understanding of the dynamic and they’re following one line of thought, and they’re not using their critical thinking skills to say, is there more to the story?

And it takes time. And it is it takes energy to work through this. And as you say, decide, is this? Does this make sense to me? If it does then move on. And I think people are overly swayed by the groundswell of opinion. Well, when was the last time the majority made sense?

I mean, really. And so I think it’s George Bernard Shaw, who said, All products, all progress in society is a function of people being unreasonable. And I’m unreasonable about this topic. And I think you are as well. And I appreciate your efforts to try to enlighten your clients and your followers because our lives are at stake, and our health and well-being are at stake. And I think it’s a tragedy, that we’re still arguing something doctor Kumerow tried to put to rest back in the 1980s. And here we are 40 years later, just as confused. And how long did it take us to solve the cholesterol? Did confusion take 65 years? So maybe we have another 25 years of this insanity?

Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, you know, I, I still think about the in your carrier fatigue book about, maybe you can expand upon that where you had the, and again, I’ll tell my patients, just like you said earlier, I don’t have vitamin D is essential for the body, when we’re not talking about it in a storage form and making sure that your storage levels are super high.

That’s we’re not talking about that. Act, if you want to get the active form of vitamin D into your cells, you need to decrease your storage form so that you increase your vitamin A to be able to get your act of D. So we both want your d to be working more effectively. You’re just yelling at the deaf person louder, and I’m just putting, you know, a hearing aid on him kind of thing.

That’s the that’s the difference. Right? What is the four-year follow-up study? Maybe you could tell us about that. Because that doesn’t seem to get the recognition that the initial because it all sounds like it’s a flaw in the studies. design that is pointing to the fact Okay, vitamin D is good. Therefore, the causation of having storage D high must necessarily follow where it’s a corollary in terms.

But what was the study that you were mentioning about how they never reported the four-year follow-up and found that I believe that it’s not so much that it low vitamin D storage for unhealthy and healthy people? It’s just that the unhealthy people have high video use active D versus the unhealthy cohorts. And it wasn’y reported. So everything hung on the initial study without the follow-up, something like that. Does that ring a bell for you?

Morley Robbins: It’s not as sharp as I want it to be. But absolutely. EMIC. And the thing is, there is a narrative. We know there’s a narrative in society now. And we’re all subject and prey to that narrative. And, I think what we’re trying to do is, is help people gather more information about what else is in play, what are other factors? What are other data points that they need to be aware of, like the study that you’re referring to?

Because there are I’ve come across countless examples where information that should have been earth-shattering, like the work of Warburg and Krebs in 1927, when they discovered that copper enzymes respond to anemia. Well, that tells you that copper regulates iron.

And that’s a major study that maybe three people know about. And so it’s to me there, there’s been a narrative throughout the decades, to bias people to a certain way of thinking about focusing on pathogens, focus on the particle, don’t focus on the field, don’t focus on the physiology or the energetics of the body. Everything’s about, well, we’ve got this bug and we got to kill the bug, that telling you that when you kill that bug, you’re going to kill the mitochondrial bugs that look just like the bugs are trying to kill.

And so people are I think people are more sensitive to it today, three years after, you know 2020, and so It’s a different world now. But I think there’s still a subset of society that has been lost in the narrative. And I don’t, I don’t know what it’s going to take to get people to do the gut check and say, I gotta rethink this, I’ve got to go down a different path. I’ve got a challenge. I mean, as Mark Twain said, if you find yourself on the side of the majority, it’s time to switch sides. And so it’s like, people, people like to be in numbers.

I like to be in the crowd. It’s more comfortable. But that doesn’t mean it’s right. And I think I think this is this cataclysmic clinical issue around vitamin D. I think we’re gonna look back on it in 10 years, and what? Oh, my gosh, I mean, I think you and I will be relieved. But I think the masses are going to be stunned by what they didn’t understand. Again, I think there’s there’s enough evidence to satisfy us that, thamistakes are beingng made. But it’s just tragic that people can’t seem to process the information in a timely enough fashion to make make a different decision. Right?

Dr. Joel Rosen: Well, and shifting gears a little bit here where someone’s listening to this and they might be getting some good pieces of information and other pieces might be a little bit above their heads. What you’ve done is you’ve created y usable handbook that I saw you have a new update for thay gives people okay, well, what do I do the same people that find strength in numbers and want shortcuts and just do this and the magic wand and you know, everything’s, you know, waived and you come home from the ball and you don’t turn into a pumpkin, you know, all that type of thing.

But let’s maybe talk about that, because I think it’s an important point in terms of maybe what’s new on there, what you have things that you should be stopping, and things that you should be starting all in the guise of getting your bioavailable copper working effectively for you so that you are moving your, your iron, you’re recycling your iron, you’re making ATP, you’re not oxidative Lee, creating inflammation and breaking down DNA and proteins and so forth. So maybe what’s new on that Morley or for the person that’s never heard of that? That’s what’s old, that’s effective? And what do you what is? What’s it trying to do? I guess that’s the question.

Morley Robbins: Yeah, the protocol, the root cause protocol is just trying to simplify the process of getting well and is based on stops and starts. And getting people to realize that these very popular nutritional recommendations, ascorbic acid, vitamin D, zinc, iron, calcium, and synthetic B vitamins, are not your friends. And so we’ve taken a stance, get those out of your routine, get rid of the processed food, you got to move beyond that, and get to real seasonal, locally grown wherever possible organic food.

It’s not easy. It was not cheap. It isn’t. It takes a real commitment to go down that path. But the focus on the starts is to begin to build the nutrients in the body to develop bioavailable copper.

And I think the biggest change in the, in this latest edition of the handbook is to identify copper supplements, what you know what happens to be the one that I’ve put together called recuperate, but others are mentioned, but we wanted to make sure people knew that there are viable sources, because we were silent about that in earlier editions.

And in large part, the whole stance around COPPA changed. Post 2020 I think that copper has been under assault ever since that mechanism started. And I thinpeople must realizeze that if they’re still struggling with symptoms, here in 2022, you’re copper deficient and you need ty bulk up.

You need to be doing the protocol. You need the other nutrients that are critically important for making sure the copper gets loaded into its key metabolic protein called through low plasmon, but there are scores of comprehends items that need to be loaded.

And the loading process requires retinoic acid from retinototo activate the enzymes to come Move the copper, into those enzymes. And if you don’t have retinol in your diet, and you don’t have retinol in your physiology, it will not those key regulatory enzymes are not going to work. And those enzymes are critical for creating energy-clearing exhausts catalyzing other enzymes and combating enemies.

All this focus on pathogens over the decades for the last century has been having pushed copper aside because that’s Mother Nature’s anti-pathogenic. It’s been used throughout history. You can go back to the Smith Papyrus 2500 BC. And then we’re talking about using copper to heal people. Well, they do. It’s medicinal purposes. But this is all been lost in the modern era since the First World War, so it’s just a different world.

And we live in an iron-centric world where the emphasis is on getting more iron. And in a world where people have been trained to think of copper as being toxic. I can’t tell you the number of practitioners I’ve talked to over the last five to seven years, who are terrified of using copper, because they think it’s going to create all sorts of oxidative stress the same thing

Dr. Joel Rosen: with vitamin A as well, right? I mean, vitamin A is toxic, copper is toxic, Vitamin D is not iron is

Morley Robbins: Not. Right. Right. And that, that, that axis of insanity is why people are so sick. Right? One of the last

Dr. Joel Rosen: Things, I mean, I’d love to talk to you again. But as far as just getting to that point here, one of the things that I think that the RCP in the training taught very well, and put a lot of emphasis on is okay, well, I’m doing the stops, I’m doing the starts, why am I not necessarily feeling any better? And it’s not a magic wand? What’s your life like? Like? What are your stressors? Like?

What’s your demand for energy? And how are you respiring at the cellular level? Are you stuck in first gear, are you able to get up a first gear, maybe just talk a little bit about how you’ve incorporated that into your teachings as well because I think that’s a point that’s lost on a lot of people as well.

Morley Robbins: When I’m when I’m chatting with a client, who’s been very faithful to the protocol, trying to do all the stops and starts, as you say, and they feel like they’ve plateaued or they’ry moving sideways, or if something doesn’t feel right. There are four roadblocks that we talk about. The first is, you know, what we know about the protocol is that it works, especially to mobilize iron.

Soon as you start to introduce either copper or the nutrients that make copper bioavailable, you are going to activate that iron recycling program. And, what’s important for people to realize is that when they start to do that, that means they’ve got to discharge than iron, through blood donations, very important to get that excess iron that has been held in storage, because of hep Sidon and get it out of the body because there’s nothing beneficial from excess stored iron.

So iron donations are very, very important. The second factor is to look at their diet and say, there are yoy sensitive to your foods or your environment, it’s a histamine issue. And begin to identify where that sensitivity is. Any encourage people to work with practitioners who are adept at clearing those sensitivities, through N A E T. Very, very powerful mechanism. Third, we all have emotional baggage. One of the biggest roadblocks we come up against is if you haven’t released that emotional baggage, it will become fear. And the fears drive disarray and dysregulation in our body because it triggers hormones.

And those hormones are designed to accumulate iron. It’s a fact. And so it’y key to make sure that people realize that they’ve got to take the time and the steps to release that baggage, release those fears. So they can unbridle, the energy in the body that’s needed for healing. And then the fourth hurdle is parasites. But what I’m finding over the last couple of years is the pervasive impact of the parasites, there are very few doctors that take courses in parasitology not mainstream, clinical education.

And so because they don’t know about parasites, they don’t understand The role the parasites played to disrupt copper metabolism to build an accumulation of iron. And, what happens is, these parasites are particularly disruptive to our macrophages, the pet thief, the PacMan that are trying to keep things in balance. And a lot of people are worried about autoimmune diseases.

Well, what’s autoimmune? Autoimmune is, without exception, you’ve got iron-laden macrophages. Some way it goes so far as to say hemosiderin-laden, which means there’s so much iron in there, it’s frightening, but hemosiderin-laden, macrophages, parasites, and they haven’t dealt with the emotions. There’s a negative emotion behind every autoimmune condition.

And so people need to realize that these parasites, these intracellular pathogens, are very powerful. They’ve been on the planet, since the beginning of time. And what’s especially important is to recognize the work of a pet could overwhelm animal farms down in Australia. And she’s written multiple books on animal husbandry, but she makes a very striking point, any animal that’s copper deficient, will have parasites, and the animal with parasites will have a copper deficiency. Now, the mistake that’s routinely made by practitioners is thinking that parasites only hang out in the gut. Not true.

They’re there all over our body, but especially in our liver and our spleen, because of just the prevalence of iron in those organs. And so people need to rethink that they do have parasites, it isn’t just a simple gut cleanse, they probably need bio-resonance, or biomagnetism, ty introduced the frequency to break down the parasites and allow the natural healing energy to flow. And so those are the four, four areas of focus that wy concentrate on. And when we have success around those four areas, invariably, people make that shift. And they get back into the momentum phase, of getting well.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no awesome stuff. I already know when we’ve taxed it’s, it’s the answers are, is born out of just common sense Mother Nature things, versus having to crack the atom and come up with, you know, as you like to say, six standard deviation solutions. It’s a common-sense solution.

Morley Robbins: Exactly. Yeah. And I think there’s, there’s a simplicity and elegance to the body. And I think people need to appreciate that Mother Nature is pretty sophisticated at designing how our immune system is supposed to work. And it runs on energy and intelligence. And I would argue that copper is what brings both to the party.

There’s nothing intelligent about iron. It’s, it is it’s a very important element. We can’t live without it. But it is. It’s a dumbwaiter basically, it’s just carrying oxygen for thmost ofof the body. And in this, it’s been assigned to all these critical functions. But in every one of them, copper hiding in the background, every one of the functions, there’s a there’s a critical need for bioavailable copper, to make that iron responsible and do its job. And again, it’s in the literature, but it’s not in the headlines. And so don’t get past the headlines, you’re not going to understand what’s going on.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Well, I mean, I think if someone’s listening to this, and they’ve gotten this far, they’re open to the idea that what they’re being told is not necessarily so are RCEP 123 dot com, that’s the place where they go to find is that correct?

Morley Robbins: Oh, RCP, 123 dot o RG or? It’s the root cause of protocol.com Just just to make it again.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Who owns the RCP 123 dot com?

Morley Robbins: Don’t know I don’t know if it even exists as a domain. We might own it. But by now I don’t think anyone does. But are we to look it up? No.

Dr. Joel Rosen: All right. Well, awesome. Morley. I appreciate your time. I’d love to be able to keep an open invitation if you have the time and inclination to meet again. I wish you future success. I know, that you’ve announced to your community that you’re not necessarily getting out of the mix but you’re stepping back to do more of the research. So I wish you continued success and I guess fulfillment in the new role or the old new role that you’re going back into.

Morley Robbins: Yeah, no, I’m looking forward to it. To me, it’s calling a stroke, radical, strategic sabbatical. And focusing on some critical issues that I think are going to help secure the growth and development of the movement. And I’m looking forward to that time in 2023, to do that.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Well, excellent. I mean, I’m looking forward as always, to being sort of on the sideline and seeing all the amazing things that you’re doing, and just wanted to thank you for your continued vigilance and everything that you do. Morley, thank you so much for taking the time today.

Morley Robbins: Well, our next conversation will probably be face-to-face in your office so I can’t wait for that. Perfect. Start to make those. Perfect, thank you so much.

Dr. Joel Rosen: You take care.

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