JAC: Welcome to #WeGotGoals, a podcast by aSweatLife.com on which we talk to high achievers about their goals. I'm Jeana Anderson Cohen; with me, I have Maggie Umberger and Kristen Geil.

MU: Good morning Jeana.

JAC: Good morning

KG: Hi, Jeana.

JAC: Hello Kristen.

JAC: Maggie. You talk to Yael Shy.

MU: I did. I got to speak with Yael Shy, who is the author of What Now: Meditation for your 20s and beyond. And she's also the founder of Mindful NYU, which just happens to be the largest campus wide mindfulness initiative in the country. And we got to talking about what is mindfulness and how do we define that in this day and age where it really is important, but we talked about like the should of feeling like you should meditate and what are those expectations and really what you can get out of making a commitment to do it.

KG: I know I'm not alone when I say this but in theory I would love to have a meditation practice, it sounds very relaxing. But in reality I always find that I want to do something else. I want to be more active. And it just seems a little boring to be honest. And I know that’s something that Yael has dealt with when trying to bring this to campuses because sometimes it just seems like I don't want to do it task. Can you talk a little bit about how Yael views meditation and how she's sort of reconciled that to make it more accessible to everybody?

MU: She came up with this really cool analogy for me to hear where you go to the gym all the time because you know you're doing something good for you but you don't always have a good time when you're at the gym. Sometimes you really hate that five minute plank that the instructor asks you to hold. And it can get really uncomfortable and really agitating and frustrating. And she equated meditation, like the actual time that you're sitting down to do it, as that potentially agitating and frustrating. But you have to have this belief and this understanding within you that you're doing something good for you that will benefit you down the line. And so that put it in perspective for me is because I think I have this really not so realistic perspective of what meditation is, that it's a Zen environment and everyone who does it is incredibly happy and just calm.

But that was a cool point for us to talk and sort of jump off talking about goals with, because she did mention saying like just because you meditate doesn't mean you are Zen and calm and have no direction and goals. It's just a mindset and frame of how you approach those goals which which she then continue to talk about in the podcast.

JAC: And she had one key piece of advice for people who want to start a meditation practice. Can you talk a little bit about that.

MU: She gave some really sound advice about lots of steps within our interview to take to make sure that you can hold yourself accountable. But the one piece that really stuck out to me was something I've never thought to do before, which is to write down for yourself why you're doing this. So in the moments when you aren't sure that it's worth your time or that you know there's something more fun to do. You can look at that piece of paper and you can read what you wrote about what that meditation practice, and why you're setting that as a goal for yourself to stick with it.

JAC: And here is Maggie with Yael.

MU: Great, so Yael, thank you so much for joining me on the #WeGotGoals podcast. It is so wonderful to get to talk to you.

YS: I’m so happy to be here. Thanks for having me Maggie.

MU: Absolutely. So Yael,  you are about to launch a book called What Now: Meditation for your 20s and beyond. And you're also the founder and director of mindful NYU which is the largest campus wide mindfulness initiative in the country. That’s huge. I'm very interested how you came upon mindfulness and how it started at NYU which is in the middle of the biggest craziest busiest city in the world.

YS: Yes, so I came to mindfulness meditation from I was actually a student at NYU many years ago and I was feeling the stress and the crazy of the city. I was in a very difficult place in my life. I was in college and it felt like the first major time in my life I was asking a lot of questions like, what is important in this life? If everybody dies then why am I alive? And it was this  really formative moment. And at the same time I was just broken up with my parents were getting a divorce. It was around September 11th and I had some you know PTSD from 9/11 that was happening like, in my neighborhood. And it was just like a very difficult time, a lot of suffering a lot of anxiety. And I just felt like I didn't have any tools to work with any of it.

And so I ended up going on a meditation retreat that really transformed my life and helped me to see a lot of the roots of what my anxiety was built on. And a lot of the roots of my suffering. And it certainly didn't solve everything in one retreat but it led me down a path where meditation and mindfulness have really completely transformed my life. And so now at the Center at NYU, which we created in 2009—a student named Elizabeth and myself basically got it going as just a little sitting group that grew and grew, and now has meditation every single day of the week and it has advanced practice, it has sub groups for our LGBTQ community and our people of color community. It has retreats and workshops and yoga twice a day every day and just a lot going on. So it’s really blossomed into a really thriving place.

MU: Incredible. That's amazing to have done in not a lot of time because meditation is a buzzword and I think people have certain reservations about it. And I think that it's pretty incredible that you sort of cut through that clutter and just made a statement like this is important and people are getting on board.

MU: Yes well, and I kind of get it. I've had a lot of the same reservations. I did have when I first started meditating I had no connection to it at all. When I went on my first meditation retreat I had no idea what I was getting into and I thought meditation was boring and I thought yoga even was like pretty boring. It was not in my frame of reference.

And over the years it's just really to me it's a buzz word for meaning, learning to open up to life to be with what is and to be with oneself and in a way that helps me to really experience life in a richer way and to have more compassion for myself and for others and that connects me to this larger vitality that is life. Whereas like the everyday can sometimes feel dry or meaningless or just disconnected. Meditation to me feels like a way to connect in. So that's really how we teach it and what it means to me.

MU: And I I want to say that I get that but I am also like in that camp of I know I say I should meditate more but I don't do it. It's like I want to roll out my mat and do it and then I don't.

One thing that really sticks out to me that that you say is that essentially what meditation is is being here in the present and happy or just content with what is which is really interesting in the context of this conversation around goals because it almost is counterintuitive because goals is all about not where you are but where you're going. So I'm I'm interested in your take on goals in general.

08:16

YS: Yes. It’s such a good question and such a good insight. I wouldn’t say that meditation is about being happy or even—others might say this, but I'm not sure I would say it's about being content with what is because sometimes what is, what's going on in the present moment, is extremely painful or really difficult to be with. And in meditation, like, we make the commitment and we make the effort to be there anyway to bring our attention there to breathe through it to soften with whatever is going on, and you know it could be emotional pain it could be physical pain it could just be like a really scary moment. And to really try and drop into what is happening but it might be excruciatingly difficult. And so I guess I would just kind of readjust that to just say, to be with what is even if you don't like it and if it's like I want to escape this with all of my mind and all of my being.

It's a commitment to keep trying to come back because there in the present moment, being with whatever is happening, is I think our chance for healing and our chance for freedom in that in that moment. But then to go to the question of goals and kind of connect it to goals. For a lot of people I think their kind of resistance to meditation—and I have this as well—is, oh, it’s going to make me be kind of like a lump like a lazy happy with what is kind of person. And I'm never going to accomplish the things I want to accomplish. I'm never going to amount to anything if I just like sat there and breathed and was happy all the time.

**And I don't mean to be flippant about it it's a real struggle of like how much do we need to push ourselves and drive ourselves forward and how much do we just need to be still and to not be doing any action and to just be rather than to do? And on the one hand I do think that it's a slightly false split because the goals that I've been able to accomplish like I would say starting the meditation center or like writing my book, I had to actually create this idea in my mind before actually doing it so I had a goal or a kind of direction I wanted to go in and I thought about it and I shaped it and I dreamed about it. And all of the stuff that one does with goals that you're excited about and at the same time I think what the meditation practice has helped me do—and I’m definitely not always successful at this but it's helped me to hold that end result with a loose hand so that if my goal was to finish this book by January, which it was originally last January, and it did not get finished by January.

It's not like a tragedy of epic proportions. It’s not like frustrating and painful it might be for a minute but it's the idea is that once you set the goal, if things come in that change and the world has a role to play in sending you deviations or sending obstacles and those obstacles and deviations might be exactly what you needed to produce something even more beautiful than you had originally thought. And the only way you can know that is if you're holding your goals with kind of flexibility and looseness and remaining light on your feet.

And so that's sort of how I operate in relation to goals, like it's almost like, you know you you set an intention in your mind I'm going to go to the store today and you're walking in the direction of the store and you know what you want to buy when you get to the store. And then somebody stops you on the way to the store and you can just you know be angry or try and get away from the person to get to your goal or let's say that person stopping you would tell you that there's a much better store in a different direction and that's the way you need to go.

MU: That's super interesting for me to hear because I definitely resonate with that line that you walk between being too flippant about just not caring about your choices and then being ok with what happens and unfolds and just being with what unfolds. I think that is something that I learned or that I was conditioned in college to go after a big goal and to have huge aspirations and to work really hard and stay up really late. So I think that you working in the realm of a university has probably lots lots of rich territory to explore. Would you agree?

YS: Yes absolutely. My students constantly are in various stages of both the excitement of that realm, and being like, you know I'm chasing my dreams or working towards my dreams and I'm exploring new territory and it's all there, that like pregnancy of possibility. And I think just like you know anyone else I think it's a time of like a lot of pressure and a lot of stress and some people don't exactly know what they want to be doing and that’s its own sort of suffering just not knowing what your should be. And or just feeling like, I have a student that's on them premed track and it is just one crushing week after another. He's struggling to make these grades better, just working so hard and still struggling so much. And so it's really both sides of the equation, it’s everything at that time when you're really in a university setting, I think, trying to really figure out who you are and what your future is going to look like.

MU: Can you speak a little bit about all of the different types of students that come in that maybe have the really stressful tracks versus the less stressful tracks. Because it runs the gamut I'm sure. And how do you speak differently to people that have it in their head that they're going to go through med school and law school and it’s, the odds are against them versus those who are already open and primed for meditation.

YS: Well it's interesting. I think the Buddha had a line that said meditation is sort of like playing a stringed instrument. If the strings are too tight on the instrument and you start to play it the strings are going to snap. If they're too loose and you try and play it, there's going to be no music that can come out. You know, you can't play anything. So what you want is to exactly tighten the strings to just the right level that you can play music and it's sort of the same with ourselves in our bodies. It can be true in each person just like it's true, different types of people that were sometimes going too hard and clutching too tightly to a world that we can't control and we have to learn to loosen or we're going to snap. We might have already snapped. And so it’s just this practice of like constantly practicing letting go, constantly practicing softening and easing and being kind to ourselves and relaxing. And then the other side is the other place where we've all I'm sure been to some degree or another where you're just too loose and you're not—you really need to tighten up a little bit of a discipline so that you can go to a place that you know is better for you. Like the equivalency would be to people—I’m like this constantly where a couple of weeks will go by and I'll be like I haven't been to the gym in like a month and I know I feel better after going to the gym. I know it's so good for my health. I just, am too, I've loosened up to a degree that it's not good for me and I know I can do better.

And then it's time to not beat myself up about it but just tighten the strings a little, to build it into the schedule and to follow that path. So I think the teaching changes based on the person but it also is based on the moment that that person has been at that time.

So you started this meditation center, you started Mindful NYU and you have now written a book. These are all really big goals would you say that these are the big goals that you would really want to say aloud that you're proud of? Is there anything maybe more personal or something different that is something that’s happened for you because of or through meditation?

YS: Well to be totally honest with you these things are wonderful and I do feel like they're the fruits of the practice for sure. But I actually think maybe the biggest goal that I had that was even bigger than like a goal it was like the biggest dream of my life was to meet a partner actually and to like be with someone like a life partner. And for years—I got married very late. I met my now husband. You know not very late but a little later in life. I was 33 and I just never thought it was possible. For so many years I didn't date anyone. I was so closed and scared and carrying just so many blocks to love and to intimacy and then that I believe is like a direct correlation to meditation and to therapy that I could work with those blocks and work with all of that pain and fear around dating and all of that and then to find someone and someone I love so much that I'm currently married to and that we have one baby and another baby on the way.

And so I think like that was probably, if I had to point to one piece of evidence, like if you had met me ten years ago and met me now that that would be the most major thing that has changed, that I think I've let love into my life in a bigger way.

MU: That is so awesome that simply doing less can lead to so much more.

YS: Yeah, well, and the process is not easy and I want to kind of like support people that like you mentioned people that they like oh I want to meditate. And I just haven’t, or I’ve tried. And it's so hard. I feel like it's just a failure because I was really in that boat and I know that it is really difficult process and takes a lot of like continually coming back and learning to really forgive yourself over and over again. But it really bears fruit at least it has for me and for a lot of the people that I know.

MU: You bring up a very good point because when I think about how I say this in my head and I know a lot of people do because there is more focus around your whole health and wellness. Today the people that do say I should meditate and I want to meditate more but because I believe we are pretty goal focused people in terms of tangibility—what can we say we've done and see that we've accomplished. Mindfulness isn't something you can really see and check off the list. And so people that maybe meditating regularly is a goal or mindfulness is a goal that almost flips it on its head, like how do you accomplish that versus even how do you use that to accomplish your goals? And so in your experience what are the things that people get tripped up on or where can people practice and sort of start to feel the success? And I'm sure it's different for everybody. So that's a hard question

YS:  But it's a really good question and a fair question because we're wired to want to see the fruits of our action. It makes perfect sense. And so I think that the where people get tripped up, it is different for everybody but I think it seems to fall into two main categories. One is the logistics of it, the feeling like I have no time when am I going to do this.

And that is really a question of how can you build it into your schedule and into your life that will make sense and that will fit as much as you can into your day. So for instance when I had lapsed on my meditation my regular meditation for a while I said to myself, okay where can I put it, actually physically put it into my calendar as if it was a meeting so that it would pop up and I had to go, and it is isn't meeting it's like a meeting with me and the world that is my time to say hello to myself and to open up to the world. And so first I started there. Then I asked myself, what can I do to make that time the most easy. So I place my meditation cushion in exactly the place where I needed it to be every day at that morning for meditation the night before. And I would get my slippers next to the bed, so all I had to do was put my feet in there and walk over to try to make the situation as easy as possible to make this thing happen and then I had to write out and articulate for myself, why do I think this is important? So that I can hold that really close because those times when it was I was so tired or just felt like there’s a million other things I could be doing.

I had to look at that and say I believe this is important because it leads to greater wellbeing and greater happiness in general. I know that is true and therefore I'm going to go do it. So I sort of had to do this a lot of this work and that's what I really recommend doing, just to logistically build it into your schedule and build a habit out of it. Then the other place where I think people including myself get tripped up or resist meditating is that it feel I want to say hard. But the reason why it feels hard is often because the voice that comes up in our minds when we're trying to pay attention to our breath or pay attention to our emotions and we, our minds wander away which they naturally do. The kind of judgmental and cruel voice that comes in can be really really harsh and can say like you're failing you're not good at this, you're not a good meditator. Fill in the blank of how your own critical voice sounds. You know you'll always fail at everything whatever it is. And that for a long time prevented me—I just couldn't handle it because I could only stay present for let's say a few seconds out of an hourlong meditation and then I just felt like such a failure afterwards. And not only do I feel like a failure, I felt like I had to sit with this voice that was like yelling at me about it and I just didn't want to do it anymore.

And so from that side I think really trying to redefine meditation that it is not about clearing away your thoughts and it's not about going, you know, staying focused on your breath which is a nearly impossible task to do because we're not in charge of our minds our minds wander. And so instead of that, to really redefined meditation as it is this process of the mind wandering away and us waking up to look at the contents of our mind. Oh it's interesting. I'm thinking a lot about you know this thing I'm planning I must care a lot about that. OK that's what I'm thinking about coming back. I’m thinking about what that person said to me and I'm really hurt by it. Come back and feel the hurt. You know whatever it is that you're thinking about, these are not, your thoughts are not the enemy. It’s a matter of continually bringing your attention back now and that’s the practice. Going away and coming back going away and coming back and really strengthening that muscle of being with what is there, what’s there in the present.

So those are sort of my two big tips. There's a lot more in the book to help surmount a lot of the obstacles because I'm telling you I was never like a star meditator. I've never gotten to a place where my mind is completely cleared and so I try to write the book from that place from the place like fidgety anxiety difficult stress place and still sitting through it.

MU: I like hearing the exercise of it being like a muscle to exercise because I can relate to, the more pushups I do the stronger my arms get. And then I have to take the time to get through some of the the bad workouts to get to some of the more fruitful ones.

YS: Exactly. And I think it's sort of we've sort of done a disservice in the public way of talking about meditation as just this like really relaxing activity. It can be relaxing but in my experience it can also be extremely agitating and just understanding that the same way the gym does not always feel good when you're doing it, sometimes meditation can really be difficult and agitating and just really believing, same thing with therapy that that going through this process will bring more healing more love more connection.

MY: Yes absolutely. So one last question I guess then it's even though we talk about holding goals with a loose hand if you're looking ahead after the launch of your book or beyond that, what do you have in your mind that you'd like to go after?

YS: Well my next baby is due in March. So I think from now till March I kind of have a shorter term goal of working hard to try and get the book out there and to let people know about it and to talk about it and write about it so that it can get out there and help as many people as possible and sort of has its own life and after March I think I'm setting my goals on just like keeping the kids alive just keeping myself and my husband like as sane as possible in this crazy crazy process. And beyond that, I’m not really sure. I’m kind of I'm waiting to see him opening up to what feels like the right next step the right next project to be working on. But I'm not really sure yet. So have to stay tuned for that.

MU: Well we will be looking forward to hearing what you do next. And people can buy What Now: Meditation for your 20s and beyond, starting now.

YS: Yeah, it’s out there, it’s on Amazon it's anywhere your books are sold. So definitely check it out.

MU: Awesome thank you so much Yael for joining me and for talking about meditation in a very accessible way. It's been it's been a treat.

YS: Thank you so much, thanks for having me.

CK: This podcast is produced by me Cindy Kuzma and it's another thing that's better with friends. So please share it with yours. You can subscribe where ever you get your podcasts. And if you get a chance leave us a rating or a view on Apple podcast we would be so grateful. Special thanks to J. Mano for our theme music; to our guest this week, Yael Shy; and to Tech Nexus for the recording studio.