Is anything more important than safety? We hope the answer is as obvious as the question is rhetorical. This week’s guest, Michele Goulet of Petzl, offers insight into fall protection, access and rescue equipment, and tips for managing in emergency situations, plus how to evaluate helmet features to best protect yourself and your workers.

Also in this episode, Joel Saxum (of Wind Power LAB) joins Allen and Rosemary to discuss carbon capture. What are the best locations for those projects? How big a role will it play in the future? When will the technology catch up with the problem?

Visit Petzl here – https://www.petzl.com/US/en

Sign up now for Uptime Tech News, our weekly email update on all things wind technology. This episode is sponsored by Weather Guard Lightning Tech. Learn more about Weather Guard’s StrikeTape Wind Turbine LPS retrofit. Follow the show on Facebook, YouTube, Twitter, Linkedin and visit Weather Guard on the web. And subscribe to Rosemary Barnes’ YouTube channel here. Have a question we can answer on the show? Email us! 

Michel Goulet: [00:00:00] So Petzel is really in the, uh, in the business of providing fall protection, access equipment and rescue equipment, uh, for, for many industries, including, uh, the wind energy, uh, sector.

Welcome 

Allen Hall: to the uptime wind energy podcast. I am your co-host Allen hall and here from Canada. The queen of COVID Dr. Rosemary Barnes. Welcome Rosemary. Thanks. And 

Rosemary Barnes: yeah. Thanks you think right. It’s not my favorite introduction, but accurate on this particular 

Allen Hall: day. we’re always truthful on this show. Very truthful and from the largest wind energy state in America, Texas Joel Saxum of Wind Power LAB.

Welcome [00:01:00] Joel. 

Joel Saxum: Thank you, sir. That’s true. 

Allen Hall: We have a very busy, busy week. Uh, we’re all still recovering from ACP, San Antonio. Uh there was an outbreak of COVID evidently and everybody’s still recovering, but, but we’re back and better than ever. So let’s get, uh, Rosemary’s thoughts on this carbon removal technology that the us government is throwing three and a half billion dollars at, and then we have a guest interview.

We haven’t had those in a. So we’re gonna have Michel Goulet from Petzl, one of Rosemary’s favorite helmet makers. And Michel’s gonna talk about all the different safety, uh, products that they have and what you need to do with your safety gear to check it out, make sure it’s working properly and how to dispose of it.

This is a lot of good, good information there from Michel. And then after, uh, the interview with Michel, we have we’ll talk about the DOE 2022 collegiate wind farm collegiate wind competition. We all saw down in San Antonio, which is [00:02:00] really, really cool. So how Rosemary kind of describes some of that carbon removal technologies.

So Rosemary, this is in your sweet spot of, uh, us federal government is, is gonna pour 3.5 billion into carbon capture. So a carving capture. So the department of energy said, uh, it’s gonna support four. Large scale, regional direct air capture hubs. And so where those are, we should find out. Cause it doesn’t really talk to that, uh, that they hope to remove 1 million tons of carbon dioxide annually at each of these four hubs.

So part of the two, two companies get named quite often are carbon engineering and, and climb works. And I think we’ve talked about climb works. What building, uh, direct air capture facilities. And Rosemary, you and I have talked about what those facilities do and what they, what they try to do. If they’re trying to remove 1 million, tons of CO2 [00:03:00] annually, the us produces about 5,000 million metric, tons of CO2.

So it’s like four out of 5,000. There’s a big gap there. What, what are they gonna learn with these 1 million to. CO2 removal systems. 

Rosemary Barnes: Yeah, I, I mean, so I think I probably would’ve said this the last time that we talked about direct air capture or any kind of, um, you know, carbon capture and storage, it’s going to be an important technology, but it’s never going to be, it’s not something that you do instead of decarbonizing.

And you can see that from the, the scale that you just mentioned. So yeah, if they’re capable of capturing a million, tons of CO2 annually, which. Absolutely huge compared to what anyone is currently doing. So don’t underestimate the, the scale of, um, yeah, like the size of the challenge that they’ve set themselves.

I mean, if you look at, so this is a little bit similar to what, um, Elon Musk X prize is trying to do, and they’re spending a hundred million, [00:04:00] um, getting projects that, um, They’re working, they to win the grand prize, the teams have to first demonstrate a working solution of a scale of at least a thousand tons per year.

So we’re not even up to a thousand tons a year yet. And, um, yeah. So the, um, DOE and the X prize both are aiming for. Technology that will eventually scale to a million tons per year at a, you know, a reasonable cost. So yeah, we’re not currently a thousand tons a year is a huge challenge. And then they’re eventually projecting to a million, which is more huge.

And even that is yeah, like one drop bucket, right? 5000th of what the us is alone is currently emitting. So you can kind of. See from that, that this is not the solution for climate change. And I think you see so much disagreement people yelling at each other, even about carbon capture. Um, yeah, most people that are, you know, really serious about, um, the energy transition and, um, people, [00:05:00]professionals working in this field.

I feel most people get really annoyed and upset about the fact that people are focusing on carbon capture. And they’ll say things like, um, you know, this is it hasn’t worked yet. It’s very expensive. It’s um, just a way for fossil fuel companies to keep on doing what they’re doing. And, um, that it can never be the, the solution to climate change.

Sure. And I think all of that is true. However, we’re never going to get to actual zero emissions. You know, it’s not, it’s not really possible when you think about things like agriculture and some of the natural processes, like, you know, permafrost, permafrost, throwing, um, and other things like that. And. Uh, and even fertilizers, I mean, so far there, isn’t a really good solution to stopping all emissions from that.

So right. For those last bits, but truly hard to abate stuff, not people call a lot of things hard to abate that really aren’t, but [00:06:00] there will be some things that technology is not just gonna come along with a cheaper, better solution that has zero emissions for everything. And for those that’s the last little bit that we need, the, the carbon capture for.

So, what we need is to be working on these technologies with a long lead time, because it’s not easy. Um, so, you know, if we have got all the easy stuff done by 2040, hopefully, um, then we need the carbon capture working to take care of the really hard stuff. Um, we can’t just start. Then, you know, because it’s a hard problem, so, right.

I agree that we definitely need to be, and we need programs like this, give people a reason to continue working on it, however we need to do so in a way that doesn’t make people think that we don’t need to do anything else because it’s never gonna be a replacement for, you know, sopping, fossil fuel electricity generation with renewable electricity generation.

It’s always gonna. Thousands of times, probably more [00:07:00] to, um, you know, try and solve things in that way. Not to mention the huge amount of energy that it takes to actually run the direct air capture. So, um, yeah, we somehow need to be working very hard on it, but not get get ahead of ourselves with what it’s gonna do.

And I think it’s pretty hard for like, there’s like buzzy high. Industries to avoid, you know, hyperbole where they’re talking about what they’re gonna achieve. Um, and I think that that’s part of the, the issue is that. Yeah, we need carbon capture, but please don’t pretend that this , this is gonna solve problems, that it won’t 

Allen Hall: explain to me why, if we know where the large carriage and carbon emission sources are, are we doing enough to remove the carbon dioxide right at the source?

So some people are doing without changing the whole factory 

Rosemary Barnes: over. Some people are doing that, but not very successfully. There’s um, there’s a couple there’s one in Norway that’s somewhat successful in capturing carbon. And storing it, but the problem is that [00:08:00] all of the concentrated CO2 sources are things that need to go away.

It’s burning fossil fuels, it’s ex um, you know, it’s, um, it’s mines like coal mines or, um, yeah. Extracting oil or gas. That’s where you see big streams of CO2 that you can just capture. So the easy stuff is stuff. In 10, 20 years, we just need to be not doing that. So that’s not, to me. That’s not really the, the future.

I mean, there will still be some fossil fuels, um, even in a, a zero emissions world, we’re still we’ll wanna make, you know, some things outta fossil fuels, like, um, like fossils and maybe some other stuff. Um, but in general, whether technology airplane. The techno technological advancement needs to happen is for things that are still gonna exist in 20 years time.

Cause that’s kind of what you’re aiming for. So if you spend all your effort on the easy carbon capture, which we have categorically just fail [00:09:00] ill to do effectively with, you know, 20, 30 years of effort and a lot of money spent on it. Um, that stuff that really does just feel like a, you know, a fig leaf for the fossil fuel industry to pretend like they have, you know, like there’s some place in the future for what they’re currently doing, the same things that they’re doing now.

Um, yeah. So that’s why these big projects that are about, I mean, they’re really, it’s not about the amount of, um, CO2 that they’re going to grab outta the atmosphere as part of this program. It’s about giving several. Company several technologies, a reason to keep smart people, you know, getting paid a salary for a couple of decades while they figure out all the problems.

Um, that’s, that’s what this, I mean, that’s what makes sense to me. Um, and that’s the right way to think of it, but. You just never see it promoted in that way. You . Yeah, because it’s not, no, you 

Allen Hall: don’t, you, you totally don’t. It’s kind of Ellen. They never put the two, two equations together, 

Joel Saxum: [00:10:00] but like you were saying, uh, where you would put the plant, right?

The one that’s going right now in Iceland by climb works is in Iceland. When I think of major, super polluters or, or Minters of CO2, I don’t think of. REIC, I don’t think of Iceland, but it’s 4,000 tons of CO2 per year. Right? So it’s a minimal amount, but it’s where exactly you say Rosemary, it’s where the engineers are working on things like, cause I would think if you’re gonna put a hub in the us, you’d put one outside of New York, one outside of LA, maybe one outside of Houston, uh, one outside of Chicago, uh, because of it’s easier to collect, um, CO2 from like car emissions and all those kind of things that are admitted.

Rosemary Barnes: Mm. Yeah. I’m not sure how much the CO2 atmospheric CO2 actually varies within the yeah. 

Joel Saxum: Maybe just, maybe just goes disperse. 

Allen Hall: Yeah. 

Rosemary Barnes: That, yeah. I, I, that’s what I’m 

Allen Hall: saying. Very like, we don’t know. 

Rosemary Barnes: Do we do? Yeah. I mean, people know, we just don’t know the three of us D scientist, so I [00:11:00] mean, they’re measuring it all all the time and we could easily look that up and maybe it will before the next time we talk about it.

But I think, well, we should. Yeah. Like for these early stage projects, I would put them where the engineers are, because then that makes it very easy to go and, you know, have a look and monitor for larger scale demonstration projects. I would put them where you’ve got a clean energy source that couldn’t be used for something else potentially.

So I think that’s why Iceland, because they’ve got as much geothermal as they want. Basically you can put it somewhere next to, you know, some hydro that wasn’t fully utilized or. You know, something like that. Um, and then secondly, you need some something to do with the CO2. So probably that’s the, the harder part is.

Finding, you know, good reservoir to, to shove it. Um, and so that might be in, um, a depleted oil or gas field or something like that. And that’s where this, 

this, 

Joel Saxum: this, uh, carbon engineering and, and Oxy low carbon ventures with 1.5 is perfect out in the Permian basin. Right? If they’re [00:12:00] gonna build a, a prototype to capture 1 million tons of CO2, like where is there a better place to inject it into the, into the ground?

But I think at the same time, like in the us, I know there’s a, a massive problem of, you know, leaking Wells. So if you’re looking at controlling some, some greenhouse gases right out in the Permian, the, the, you know, methane is 30 times worse for, as a greenhouse gas for the environment than CO2 is maybe they should stick some money into plug in those Wells instead of.

Rosemary Barnes: SN and CO2 outta the air. No, you’re a hundred percent. Right. And there’s a thousand different projects that you would do if your goal was to actually, you know, reduce atmospheric CO2. This is the one of the last places that you would spend your money, but it’s um, so that’s why, I mean, if you. Assume that smart people, uh, you know, have thought about this for more than a few minutes, which, which I do assume that they have, um, their goal has to be the technology development because, um, it’s so incredibly expensive compared to there’s a million things that you could do that would be, you know, have a lower cost of [00:13:00] abatement than, than this one.

Allen Hall: So, so, so Rosemary then why don’t you have your top 10 lists of carbon dioxide? Reducing. Items, like what are those top 10 things you would go after? Why, why don’t I see that list when I Google it? I don’t, I don’t, I don’t see a list. You think that there would be a list, right? Ocean cleanup has a list.

They’ll give you the top 1000 places where plastic is coming out of. Yeah. Why do we not have a list on the top 10 CO2 producing places and how we wanna 

Rosemary Barnes: reduce them? Yeah, I mean, I could, I could make my list and, uh, I’m pretty sure that some people have made have made lists. Um, yeah, maybe it’s not talked about a lot.

Okay. But I mean, just cleaning up electricity grid is, is by far the, well, actually that’s wrong. The, the, the cheapest, um, cost of abatement is energy efficiency. And that’s what no one ever wants to talk about. But yeah, you know, you can, uh, it doesn’t even cost you money. It saves you money to do it. And, um, so it’s got like a [00:14:00] negative cost of abatement.

Then after that. Yeah. Electricity is, um, the reason, a reason why I focused the last, nearly 20 years of my career on that, because that’s my father easiest way. And it also frees up decarbonizing a lot of other stuff that uses that electricity. So, um, yeah, that’s, that’s where we, we start. And then there is a li um, there’s a chart.

Maybe I’ll find it for the next time we talk. I think it’s McKinsey. One of those big consulting firms. It’s a few years old now, but they did do, um, have you seen it? It’s got like little bar, it’s a bar chart with all of the different things that you can decarbonize in order of how well the width of the bar is like how much carbon we could, um, eliminate.

Right. And then they order them, right. Um, from Mo uh, least expensive to most expensive. So it is kind, there are charts out there that will describe what’s the, the cheapest, cheapest way to 

Allen Hall: go. Why hasn’t the us government or European governments been [00:15:00] knocking on that list? Um, it seems to me like we’re, we’re, we’re around this quite a bit.

That’d be something I, I ought to be hearing at least once a month of, Hey, we’re these are the top and things we’re going after. And this, this is why, and I think Rosemary should present that at 

Michel Goulet: co P 27.

Allen Hall: What’s not mine. It’s not like, come 

Rosemary Barnes: on. Right. It’s not, it’s not new. Everyone’s seen this chart happen. They I’ll have to, I’ll have to share it. Um, I’ve 

Allen Hall: I’ve seen the chart. Yeah. They talk to the chart, but they don’t talk. It’s easy to talk to the chart. It’s easy to talk to the chart about this is the big emitter, but then the hard part is the part you’re talking about.

Trying to reduce the emissions there. How are are you going to do. And, and so we get these projects like this three and a half billion dollars for carbon capture out of the air, which the administration will tout as being the way to fix the planet on some level. But you and I just discussed that it’s not even in the top 10, maybe in the, not in the top 100.

So why is this being [00:16:00] touted so highly when we need to be working on the top? 

Rosemary Barnes: Yeah. It’s because no one is project managing this energy transition, you know? It’s um, bingo. 

Allen Hall: that’s it. That’s it. That’s exactly it. Yeah. You need somebody project managing and, and you don’t 

Rosemary Barnes: I’ll volunteer. I’ll be the world’s project manager for the energy transition.

Um, 

Allen Hall: Well, there’s three and a half billion dollars. It seems like it’s ready to pay. You have to do that. Yeah. 

Rosemary Barnes: But there’s also, let’s get on it. I mean, there’s not many countries that have set aside, you know, this is how much it’s gonna cost to solve the energy transition. So we’re gonna use our money in the best way.

You know, it’s all everybody’s trying to work within different countries, um, current economies and. People are worried about jobs and existing industries and, you know, developing new technology at, um, it it’s new, new jobs. It’s good for a country to develop that technology themselves because then that’s a future industry for, for them.

Um, and. Yeah. And it also sounds like most of the things that you see [00:17:00] disproportionate amount of money or attention on. So, you know, hydrogen would be a good example. It’s something that sounds like a PainFREE solution, um, to the right, the, um, yeah. To the climate crisis. So yeah. Hydrogen can do everything.

So it sounds like, okay, great. All we need to do is just make hydrogen sheer. So we’ll work on that. And, you know, uh, direct air capture. It’s like, oh, it doesn’t really matter what we do with the environment. Cause we’ll just suck it out again. So it sound, you know, like it sounds, sounds really appealing in that way.

Whereas energy efficiency, for whatever reason, just doesn’t sound exciting to people. It’s like, it’s harder sell to tell people to stop doing things. And to pay some smart people to develop new technologies, you know? Um, so yeah, I guess politics is everyone in the world. Isn’t a, isn’t an engineer, some people, and I’ve gotta say some people are politics 

Joel Saxum: in the us.

We have to be, we’ve got to be the highest energy consumption per capita in the, in the world. So we’re probably the, the worst [00:18:00] at, at, uh, energy efficiency. Um, and I say, I say us as, as a whole, 

Rosemary Barnes: no, you definitely are. Um, not, not, not, it’s not like it’s not close. I don’t think, oh, there might be some middle east in, um, countries that do a little bit worse, but out of the big countries, definitely the us is the worst.

And Australia is, is shockingly high on a per capital basis as well. I think Europeans use less than half of what, um, someone living in the us does, um, On average. So, yeah. Um, Def definitely. Um, but yeah, I, I mean, I’ve never understood why energy efficiency is not more popular because it saves you money, but, um, people just don’t wanna do it.

like 

Allen Hall: an engineering or throwsy. 

Rosemary Barnes: Episode. Yeah, but it’s just as in the works, I think part of the problem I’ve been trying, I just can’t think of an interesting angle for it. It’s just, it’s not, it’s not inherently interesting and sexy, like a new technology is yeah. Like I can make a dozen videos on direct their capture and that would all, that all those videos would.

Be really interesting [00:19:00] to people and they would watch them, it explode and I would make a video on energy efficiency and no one would, would watch it. And, um, yeah. So I mean, people, please write if you’re watching it somewhere where you can comment or write in and tell us what’s the, what’s the angle for energy efficiency that I can use to make a video on it.

Cuz I think it’s definitely the biggest thing that we should be doing more of that we’re not. Um, and it’s, 

Joel Saxum: I’ve got a guest for you for that. I’ve got a guest for you for that episode. He’s uh, he’s from he’s from Northern Wisconsin. He’s 69 years old. Uh, and his, his name is actually art Saxon. He’s my dad.

And he will tell you close that refrigerator. Turn those lights off. don’t don’t turn the AC on. Don’t turn the heat up. He’s he’s your guy. 

Allen Hall: He’ll tell you. Speaking of guests, we are gonna take a quick commercial break. And, but when we come back, we’re gonna be talking with, uh, Michel Gole market development manager for wind tower and rope access.

Or Petzel it’s he is gonna give us all the great details of, of the safety gear that Petzel provides right after the 

Joel Saxum: [00:20:00] break. Ping monitor is a continuous blade monitoring system, which allows wind farm operators to stay ahead of maintenance. Wind techs can often hear damaged blades from the ground, but they can’t continuously monitor all the turbines.

They also can’t calculate how bad the damage is or how fast it’s propagating based on. But ping can Ping’s acoustic system is being used on over 600 turbines worldwide. It allows operators to discover damage before it gets expensive and prioritize maintenance needs cross their fleet, and it pays for itself.

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Allen Hall: I have with us today, Michel Gole who is the market development manager for wind tower and rope access with Petzel America based in salt lake city, Utah.

She welcome to the program. Hi, Allen, 

Michel Goulet: how are you? Great. 

Allen Hall: Hey, we got a, a long list of things to talk [00:21:00] about and obviously Petzel is a, is a safety group and has been manufacturing, a wide variety of safety gear and, and. Obviously in wind as wind terms get taller. And as we move offshore, safety becomes even more important because every step you take is just a little bit higher and it makes, uh, sense for all the operators technicians to make sure they have the proper gear on where they’re gonna be doing work at height.

Um, one of the big questions that we get a lot of times is, uh, what’s the appropriate safety gear. And what happens if a technician were to get hurt at, at height? Uh, is, is there safety gear that should, should be taken along to up the tower up until then the cell to bring down an injured comrade? Is, is there, is there products that Petzel designed specifically for that situation?

Michel Goulet: There is, right. So Petzel is really in the, uh, in the business of providing fall protection, access equipment and rescue equipment, uh, [00:22:00] for, for many industries, including, uh, the wind energy, uh, sector, um, If you’re staying within the cell or, uh, in the column, uh, generally speaking fall protection equipment is, uh, is one of the only things you need, but no fall protection system is, is complete without a, a rescue method or, or rescue, uh, kit that would allow you to, uh, intervene quickly in the event of, uh, somebody fainting as, as they’re climbing into the winter turbine or somebody falling there and becoming in incapacitated.

Uh, these wind turbines are, are usually located, uh, you know, in isolated areas. And of course now offshore, uh, rescue may not be, uh, within a few minutes, uh, timeframe. So you have to be prepared if you’re wearing fall protection equipment, uh, your partner, hopefully you’re not alone. You’re always working with.

And both of you are well versed in, uh, knowing how to, uh, to [00:23:00] deploy and access a casualty, stabilize them and lower them down to a, a safe level. And of course Petzel has equipment, uh, that that will accomplish that. 

Allen Hall: So there’s specific things that you should be looking for. If I’m a technician in terms of gear to, to bring people back down, is there, or other part particular things to, to look out.

In that gear. 

Michel Goulet: Yeah. Generally speaking, if you’re climbing on a ladder way, you’ll be connected to a, uh, a cable grab or, uh, or a rail, uh, grab, uh, on the ladder way, uh, or you’ll be climbing with lanyards. And, uh, if you’re incapacitated, you’ll be hanging from those things. Uh, so you’ the first, uh, uh, the, the first, uh, function of your.

Of your rescue kit is to be able to transfer the casualty from whatever they’re hanging on onto the, uh, rescue system that will lower you to a safe level. So, uh, a, a rescue kit when it comes for [00:24:00]rescuing a partner, uh, and fall protection is always, uh, about, uh, being able to lift the casualty a little bit.

And connect them to the, uh, lowering line and then disconnect them from whatever held them up there, uh, a cable grab or, or a lanyard. And then you have a descent control device that would allow you to, to, uh, slowly but surely, uh, lower that person to, to a safe level, uh, where they can be evacuated from.

So that gets always more complex. If you’re outside of the wind, Turine doing work, cleaning, cleaning, or working on blades and stuff. Uh, the people who do that, uh, generally speaking have a lot more training and rope access their certified under spread or IRA, and they, they have a bunch of tricks to be able to get their partner down in, in a timely.

Yeah, 

Allen Hall: it’s it’s complicated. 

Michel Goulet: It is. It can be so, so we, we, uh, engineer a kit together, so that it’s as simple as possible because in an [00:25:00] emergency situation, you know, spirits are high. Somebody might be injured and screaming and. There’s a lot of, uh, if you’re not trained as a professional rescuer, you’re not used to dealing with those kinds of those emergency situations.

So whatever, uh, whatever a manufacturer can facilitate for you, it it’ll be appreciated. So, so as long as you can get above the, uh, the casualty and anchor, uh, the little pulley system, as well as the, the scent control, uh, device above that casual. You should be able to raise them and then start lowering them very, very quickly in a matter of minutes.

Uh, of course, if, if this happens in the latter way, you’ll have to have a, a way to get around the casualty and get above them. So why lanyards? Uh, two-legged lanyards will allow you to climb around, around and over the casualty, uh, to get up, uh, I, I, in a better position to accomplish, uh, to accomplish that rescue lowering procedure.

So it 

Allen Hall: it’s really actually difficult to keep up on all the new safety gear that appears every [00:26:00] year. Uh, and I, I know as technicians are out there working on turbines at the moment, uh, it’s, it’s hard to keep track of all the new technology advancements, all the improved safety features that are out there.

What are some of the newer. Components that are on the market. Well, 

Michel Goulet: it’s interesting that you’re, you’re asking about that because Ansy has just changed their descent control device standard. It is now, uh, uh, rated, uh, the, the ratings on, uh, descent control devices is now, uh, Z 3, 5, 9 0.9. It used to be in the 0.4 standard, but that’s all going to be hoisting devices, lifting device.

Uh, now the Z 3, 5, 9 0.9 is all on descent control and there are six different types of, uh, of descent control devices. So one of them that has made an appearance and is, is doing great in, in the, in the wind industry is the type that you just connect to yourself and you just jump. And that would be, uh, and that would lower [00:27:00] you at, at a gradual speed to the ground, or, uh, hopefully to the platform before you hit the water, , uh, in a wind turbine.

But of course you have other emergencies that can happen on, on wind turbines. And one of them would be that the, the cell, the, the controls there, uh, everything catches, fire, electrical, fire, that sort of thing. So you have to evacuate the, the wind turbine and sometimes. Uh, the only way out, uh, would be, uh, from the Nael, uh, hatchway, because the, the, uh, Nael column could be full of smoke and you, you couldn’t breathe.

Uh depending on where the, where the problem is and stuff. So you have to be ready, uh, when you’re working on in winter turbines to be able to evacuate quickly. And, uh, so there’s this type one, which is clip and jump , uh, there’s a type two, but they haven’t qualified what that is yet. The international standard, uh, ISO standard has a type two and it, it wouldn’t fit within the standard too much.

So right now there’s only a type one type three [00:28:00] type four type five. We sell, we sell descent control, uh, device called the ID and the ID is stands for industrial descender and, uh, it has a handle on it. And if you pull the handle, you go, if you release the handle, you stop. It has the additional. Safety benefit that if you pulled the handle too far, You’ll go into an anti panic mode and you’ll also stop.

So the idea there with this device is to try and make it as safe as possible so that you have to find the middle ground to descend. If you let go, you stop. If you pull too far, you stop type four would be one that you just pulled to go release the stop. Uh, the rig, uh, the Petzel rig, uh, works like that.

And in type five is just like a break, a break bar rack that creates friction on the device that you can, uh, you can. Modify the friction, depending on the amount of bars you at and just a descent control device, like, uh, a figure eight or something like that. But both of those devices have had their heyday.

Uh, they’re they’re [00:29:00] sometimes using very long dissents. Uh, like the brake bar rack might still be a great tool for that, but these other devices have made things safer because, uh, you know, you could get hit from something above and let go of everything. You’re not gonna go, go anywhere with those, uh, other, uh, devices that I mentioned, the type two and the type.

Type no, no type two type three and type four. 

Allen Hall: I, I know one of the things that everybody’s worried about when they’re working on ropes, particular blade is there, there’s just a lot of sharp edges and there’s, and even ’em working on the cells, there’s so many sharp edges. So you’re worried about your ropes getting damaged and you worry about, you know, your gear, which is expensive, right?

You wanna protect that gear as much as you can. What are some of the new features about sort of protecting the Roche from all those, those friction edges and those rough rough fiberglass edges? 

Michel Goulet: Sure. There was some well documented, uh, uh, fatal, uh, fatalities in the oil industry recently where RO failures occurred and, uh, These were on oil platforms and the people fell into the sea.

And, [00:30:00] uh, so obviously spread and era have paid a lot of attention to this and, uh, make sure that, uh, you’re using the correct correct methods to protect your rope over edges and stuff like that. So, uh, Petzel has, has launched this year, a couple of new products, uh, We have the pro and the pro plus the pro is, uh, is a PVC type of, uh, material that belt rose together over your rope has a little rope clip, uh, to clip to your rope.

So it doesn’t move up and down. And when you have a stationary rope, uh, that’s a really good product to use. If you’re going over a sharp edge, if you’re going over even a. Edge or, or maybe a hot pipe or something like that. We have the ProTech plus, which is made out of, uh, techn Nora and, uh, techno or, uh, Kevlar, uh, type fiber.

And that, that gives you, uh, twice the heat resistance and cut resistance as a normal, uh, uh, rope pad. Would we also launch the roller coaster? And that’s usually, uh, that’s, [00:31:00] uh, kind of two rollers on a frame that you put on a 90 degree edge, you place that, uh, you tie it down on, on that edge or. Bolted on there.

Uh, and, and OB, obviously those rollers move as the rope moves. So if you’re lowering somebody or raising them, uh, you’re always better, especially on the raises. You’re always better to, uh, use a, uh, uh, a device where the rope will touch only ball bearing, uh, shifts so that you’re not gonna increase the weight of the casualty or the worker by more than five or, or 10%.

Right. So, so that’s good. If you didn’t have that, you. You double the you double the weight of the, of the worker. So you need to use the right gear, uh, in the right spot for that. Of course. 

Allen Hall: Yeah, absolutely. And, uh, and one of the, uh, my co-host Rosemary Barnes who can be with us today, uh, you know, she’s a big pet fan and, uh, you know, she’s always about safety, right?

So she’s, uh, she’s about [00:32:00] climbing safety. And as we bring more and more equipment up on the turbines, particularly on blade repairs, you see all kinds of grinders and cutters and ultrasound equipment and all these, these, all these devices, which are not light. Uh, but you can’t obviously drop them cuz that’s the safety hazard.

So what are some of the, uh, equipment bags and some of the, uh, techniques to, to make sure all the gear that you bring up with stays up with you. 

Michel Goulet: Right. Right. So scratch says any, any tool that’s heavier than 10 pounds has to have its own belay system. It has to be a, it shouldn’t be connected to your, to your harness or anything.

Um, if you have smaller tools that weigh less than 10 pounds, uh, we have a we’re launching shortly, uh, some new, uh, Uh, equipment bags, uh, tool bags, uh, that have, uh, the ability to, uh, connect a bunch of tethers on them. So all tools, all equipment needs to be tethered. Of course, when you’re working at height, uh, [00:33:00] uh, and, uh, there’s, I guess the, what manufacturers try to do is make it as convenient as possible.

To connect and disconnect these things. Uh, uh, so that it’s easy for the worker. You know, it’s not simple to design something that, you know, if you’re gonna use a big wrench, well, how do you keep that? Always connected and not interfere with the work at the same time. So you need to use swivels and make sure.

Make sure that, uh, that, uh, the rope doesn’t get too, the tethered rope doesn’t get too tangled up in things. So there’s all little ingenious ways to, uh, to try and, uh, accommodate, to accommodate that, keep the worker efficient in their work, but make sure that everything is, uh, is tethered. We, we recently had, uh, people here at our training facility that work in the, in the telecom industry every time.

Something was about to come off the harness. They always would tether at first. So it was just a habit to get into. And, uh, it’s a good habit. 

Allen Hall: wow. Yeah. And that it is a good habit. Uh, [00:34:00] uh, Rosemary is also a, a, a fan of your helmet. She has one of your safety helmets, and it seems like, uh, helmets or sort of a fashion piece, but also a safety piece.

And there’s different varieties of helmet. That the, you see the technician uses you. You want to sort of talk to what the different. Helmet varieties are and, and which helmet you should use for which application? Sure,

Michel Goulet: sure. O OSHA mandates the use of NC certified helmets on, uh, on work sites, like, uh, in the wind industry.

Uh, so, uh, antsy has their standards, Z 89.1, which covers, uh, all the necessary. Equipment performance requirements of good head protection, what it should have and, uh, you know, there’s penetration tests. There’s there’s flame tests so that it doesn’t the helmet doesn’t catch on fire there’s electrical, uh, con continuity test as well.

Uh, that, uh, that, uh, [00:35:00] is done. Uh, and especially in the, in the, uh, wind industry, it’s highly advisable to get a, uh, an E rated, uh, helmet, a type one E rated helmet, uh, so that there’s protection against electrical, uh, hazards and, and things like that. So you, unfortunately, you can’t have any ventilation holes in your, uh, in your helmet.

Um, But, uh, it’s the better of two evils, I guess. Um, so a good helmet too, when you’re working at height, chin strap very important, not just the two point, but a four, four point, uh, chin strap. Uh, if you’re falling these, the helmets, uh, you know, your head can hit something and the helmet can, can pop off even with a two point just a chin strap, best to have a, a good, uh, work at height helmet with a, uh, a four, a four point chin strap.

So that even if the helmet. Gets, uh, in contact with something, uh, when you’re falling, it, it, it will probably stay on your, on your head. Uh, the only time you don’t want it to stay on your [00:36:00]head is that you could in a confined space, be suspended by your helmet. Uh, so our helmets are, are engineered to release at about, uh, 50, about a hundred, hundred pounds of force.

The buckle will separate, and that’s a safety, uh, feature so that, uh, you won’t, uh, strangle yourself with the, with the helmet. So a lot of things to think about with the helmet, but obviously comfort is very important because you wanna make sure you’re wearing something, something not too heavy as well. A lot of there’s a lot of talk about type two helmets and their need, and they tend to have protection on the sides and top impact, uh, and, uh, They tend to be a little heavier for working at Heights.

So people may think they want to type two helmet, but they really want to type one for the protection on the, on the top of, uh, the. And, uh, having some space between the helmet and your head is also good too, because you could have something sharp penetrate through the, through the helmet. And there’s only an [00:37:00] allowable, uh, penetration, uh, distance there.

Uh, if you wanna meet that standard, of course you have the face shield as well. Very important. We have a very, uh, good, uh, face shield. Uh, we have two of them. We have a half face and a full face. Uh, the half face is more for eye protection. That sort of thing the full face is if you’re going into a, uh, uh, a breaker or a panel, uh, you know, or an electrical panel of any kind where there can be an arc flash or something, and you want that you want that full face protected, uh, uh, from, from any contact with, uh, melted metals and stuff.

Uh, so, uh, that’s the Vien, so that’s the full face. The vier is the half face. They. They both flip up and, and get out of the way if you’re not, if you don’t need them. And, uh, they’re of course, both certified under the Z 87 87 0.1, which is an, also a Nancy standard, uh, for, uh, protective, uh, face and eye protection.

Allen Hall: Yeah. There’s a lot to think about when, when [00:38:00] choosing a helmet it’s it is just, don’t pick one randomly, right? You need to pick it for the application. We’re gonna be using it. Add the safety pieces that you’re gonna be, you’re gonna need when you’re actually doing the 

Michel Goulet: work. That’s a good point. Uh, Alan, I, you know, you have to think a bit, you have to think about it as a head protection system.

It’s not only, you know, getting hit from above, but you’ll sometimes need hearing protection that has to fit on the helmet and has to be able to lift back and, and, uh, be out of the way if you, if you don’t, uh, use them, if you’re not using a grinder or something, That, uh, will help protect, uh or, or, and you have to have an easy way to flip a, a shield down for eye protection.

You may also have attachment points. We do on ours. We make a lot of headlamps, of course, and using headlamps and in a cell, it can be very important or if you’re working in inside blades and stuff. So having a good way to Mount a, a headlamp on there, uh, with, uh, a lot of lumens, we have, we have headlamps now that go from 500 to 900 [00:39:00] lumens.

Light up the holding the cell, if you wanted to, with the, some of these smaller, smaller headlamps. And, and one thing that we’ve been able to, uh, to do with headlamps is, you know, normally they work on the three triple a batteries, but we’ve replaced those with a flat rechargeable battery. So it’d be a lithium battery and, uh, You can recharge that many, many times for the value of about 900, uh, AAA batteries.

So at first they seem a little expensive at 40, $40 somewhere around there. But when you think of the, all the rechargeable, uh, uh, you know, conditions that you might have, you’re gonna save some money and you’re gonna help the environment as well. 

Allen Hall: Oh yeah, absolutely. Yeah. The, the headlamps are totally the cool thing to have, right?

I mean, if you have a good headlamp, everybody wants to steal your helmet. Which is, which is normal, I suppose. so one of the, one of the key pieces for technicians and engineers is to make sure that their PPE is actually work and, and [00:40:00] that it is, it is functional before they go out to a site. You typically wanna check, check your equipment.

What are some of the recommended Petzel, uh, inspections for harnesses and ropes and helmets, and some of the metal. Carabiners and those kind of things. What, what are some of the checkpoints there? 

Michel Goulet: We recommend, uh, a quick, you know, daily inspection, every time you’re about to use a harness or a helmet or anything, you know, you should have a look at it and just make sure all the straps are okay.

None of the, none of the fasteners are damaged or things like that. There’s always a quick little inspection that. That occurs, uh, depending on the company you work for and what your internal policy is and how often you use the gear. Uh, you may, you may have a formal inspection every three or four months.

Uh, OSHA recommends once a year, uh, a very formal, uh, uh, evaluation where you’re bright down, whatever you see on each piece of product, you’ll either fail the product, pass the product. Or, or, uh, uh, indicate that the [00:41:00] product needs a little monitoring throughout the year. Uh, so those are the three, uh, so all of this, uh, every piece of gear that we sell, we sell an inspection sheet with it, try to try and make things a little easier for, for anybody.

So, uh, it’s only a one page, you know, it’s kind of a check mark thing. The first thing you want to check on a helmet is the date of manufac. Because helmets and any type of, uh, textile material that we sell harnesses, uh, slings, uh, uh, any, any component that has textiles in them, as well as our helmets has a 10 year shelf life.

That’s what pets, uh, recommends. So even if it’s sat. On a shelf for 10 years after 10 years, you shouldn’t use that product. There’s, there’s a natural deterioration of, of nylon sometimes and helmets and, and things like that. So, uh, 10 years of the maximum life, if, if you’re doing your inspection and you see all you’re within your 10 year period, then you go through a series of, of, uh, check.

You know, check marks things that you need to [00:42:00] check on both comfort elements, but mainly safety elements that no little cracks on the side of the helmet or no stickers on the helmet and, and things like that. So that, uh, and same thing for harnesses, right? You want to check the crucial load bearing stitching to make sure there’s no broken stitching in there.

You wanna make sure that the functionality of the, of the connectors, the strap connectors, the adjustability of. And not, not everything is rested out and stuff. Of course, going out to see , you’re gonna have a lot more corrosion right at, at, at sea. So the hardware, the hardware, we have an indefinite life on like a carabiner, as long as you inspect it once a year.

And it functions properly. And the gate, when you release it, it close automatically. If, uh, if that’s the type of gate you’re purchasing, or if you have a screw gate, you don’t have any problems screwing it up and down. And of course, when you release the gate that it closes and, and there’s no corrosion in there.

That’s great. But out the sea, sometimes there’s corrosion that [00:43:00] gets in the hinge area of carabiners. So you release the gate and it doesn’t close and lock automatically. Right? So, uh, so obviously those are some of the things you need to check because a carabiner that you’re using, that’s got an open gate in it.

Loses about 60, 70% of his strength. So you don’t want, uh, non, uh, functioning, uh, connectors or, or anything like that in your equipment cash. You wanna make sure that you inspect those on a regular basis, then at least once a year, unless you’re, unless the company you’re working for feels that. Hey, you guys are working hard.

You’re out there every, every day. Uh, maybe it would require a full, full on inspection every three months or every four months, depending on your, your company 

Allen Hall: policy. And if a, if a piece of equipment, uh, ages out like a helmet ages out, or a harness has some webbing that’s been damaged to the point of where you can’t use it anymore.

What is the procedure to get rid of it? You just toss it in the trash or should it just, just be totally destroyed, like run over it or 

Michel Goulet: whatever you’re gonna do. [00:44:00] Right. Well, harnesses have to be cut up so they never, never get used again. Uh, and really cut up because, uh, we saw once somebody F. Had found some of our harnesses in a bin and had sewn them back together, believe it or not.

Uh, and, uh, so I hope so we were able to solve that, that issue, uh, but, uh, destroying, you know, make a, you know, those helmets make great. Flower pots, you know, you just drill holes through them and you ha you hang them up and they look pretty cool actually as flower pots, uh, but make sure that they’re non, uh, reusable, right?

Because sometimes you’ll, you’ll, uh, you’ll, uh, isolate something and then somebody will inspect it. But. And it failed, it failed and somehow it gets back into the CIR circulation. So, so you really have to make sure you have good equipment management system. We have a great three day class here for, uh, uh, that we provide a manufacture training on, uh, on, uh, [00:45:00] equipment, uh, uh, Uh, equipment and PPE inspection and equipment management class, uh, for end users.

And we also have a train to trainer one too. So, uh, uh, Petzel has a great, uh, great program for equipment inspection. Obviously it’s within everybody’s interest to make sure that, uh, equipment that’s not suited for, for use should be, uh, should be discarded 

Allen Hall: property. Absolutely. Absolutely. And, and we’re gonna wrap up here, but I think this, this is really good to get this information out because there’s, there’s gonna be a lot of activity.

This spring, summer and fall and wind. And I know there’s a, as we know, there’s a lot more wind Turbin being, uh, put up this summer and, and it just makes a lot of sense. Everybody check your safety gear, make sure it’s working properly. Go to the pencil site. If you have any questions and, and download the data sheet, check your equipment and Hey, if, if it’s bad, get rid of it, destroy it, get rid of it.

And, and, and if you have any questions, Michel, do they just reach out to Petro directly? Uh, [00:46:00] Go to the website. What should they 

Michel Goulet: do? We have a, a number of, uh, really good product information on their websites. There are tech tips on how to use it properly. How not to use it. , uh, there’s, uh, technical notices that are sold with every product that are all downloadable and stuff.

So our, our website is a wealth of information. No problem. Also, we have, uh, if, if somebody wants to talk to a human being, that’s fine too. We have technical sales reps, uh, across, uh, both the us and Canada around the world, of course, but here, uh, at Petzel America, uh, we handle both Canada and the us, and we have about 30 reps that are in every region.

And it’s easy to, uh, to get that contact information for those folks. So you have somebody local to talk to, but we also have a technical information manager here at Petzel that that can take both your, your questions, but written or in a phone call. And we’ll be glad to, uh, clear up any, uh, any issues.

Well, great. 

Allen Hall: Uh, that, that’s fantastic. That’s good. That’s good. Good to know, Michel. Thank you [00:47:00] for being on the program and, uh, yeah, it’s gonna be a great summer. So we, we hope to have you back sometime soon to talk about some of the new safety. 

Michel Goulet: In the future. Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me.

And, uh, we hope to keep all the, uh, winter Turine technicians, uh, safe throughout the next six months to the next, uh, 60 years.

 lightning is an act of God, but lightning damage is not actually is very predictable and very preventable. Strike tape is a lightning protection system. Upgrade for wind turbines made by weather guard.

It dramatically improves the effectiveness of the factory LPS. So you can stop worrying about lightning damage, visit weather guard, wind.com to learn more, read a case study and schedule a call 

Allen Hall: today. A lot of great information there guys. So, uh, if you missed it, rewind re-listed to Michel Goulet because he has a lot of great safety information and a lot of new safety technology.

That, uh, we’re gonna see being used in industry. So interesting interview. Thanks Michel, [00:48:00]for being on the podcast. Couple to wrap up this episode, just a couple of things here. Uh, we were down, we were down at ACP in San Antonio, the, uh, department of, of energy held the collegiate wind competition. So there were 12 competing colleges, uh, down there and Rosemary and I walked down to that event and saw some, some part of it.

They had Rosemary harmony, wind turbines, not wind turbines. They had a lot of wind turbines. They had wind tunnels, they had three wind tunnels, like one large one and two sort of medium 

Rosemary Barnes: size wind tunnels. Yeah. And then the kids one as well, which was just some, um, oh yeah, that’s true. Right. Four ran four bands.

Yeah. And, um, and a wave tank in front of it. That was the, the cool thing that, um, they added a floating. A floating category or a floating aspect to the competition this year. And, um, so yeah, they’ve got the fans there. And, um, so this was for the [00:49:00] younger, younger kids, I think, up to high school. Um, and they yeah.

Have these four big, big fans and, you know, they make a wind turbine and it makes electricity. um, I think the older kids are making their own generators, you know, winding them. Um, yeah. And they’re winding generators. That was cool. And the younger kids are using, using one that the competition provides. Um, and then they also have to have a floating version where they put it in a wave tank and, um, they gen generate some little, little waves and make sure that it can yeah.

Operate, um, stay afloat in those wavy conditions. So yeah, I thought that was so it looked like. 

Allen Hall: Roughly three divisions there. So there was like the elementary school, middle school then clearly high school age kids. And then on the collegiate level and the collegiate teams were pretty well sized. Uh, they probably had eight, eight ish people on, on each of the teams, uh, running the wind tur is through.

And, and from what we could tell, they’re doing what, uh, a [00:50:00] variety of, of wind speed, uh, across the, the turbines measuring the energy. So it was, it was, it was a real sort of collegiate level competition. I wouldn’t, yeah, it was similar to probably Rosemary’s competed in the SAE formula, um, car development process.

Yeah, 

Rosemary Barnes: the, I used to, I did Aero design competition was the one I did the most and the air design competition. Every year after that Mohave desert, I was in a solar. 

Allen Hall: Competition years ago, which GM sponsored, we made a solar car and rode it across the United. So those competitions are really good, uh, to, to develop engineers that’s for sure thing.

Yeah. And I was excited to see the number of met students. I met with one of the teams, 

Joel Saxum: uh, actually that was working in the, like the breakfast area of my hotel while I was there. And it was really cool to speak with them actually, and kind of just grabbed their backgrounds. Like one guy was an electrical engineer.

Another person on the team was a mechanical engineer. They had a software guy. [00:51:00] Um, and, and what I was really liking about the idea was, uh, okay, so back up a second in the us, we don’t have a whole lot of post-secondary. Education focused on wind energy, right. Um, you know, company I work for is a Danish company.

You have DTU, you have university of ours, you have a lot of in the European side and Bristol and things. You have a lot of post-secondary education focused directly on wind. And I know there’s a few programs in the us that are coming along, but seeing that they were grabbing, I said, you know, what’s your background in wind?

What do you like about wind? And the guy was like, oh, I was an electrical. And they just grabbed me to be a part of this team because I’m pretty good at, you know, at my craft. I said, so what do you think about wind energy now? He’s like, I, I actually, I love it. Like, it’s really cool to be a part of something.

They were from, uh, Texas tech. Right. So they’re in the heart of wind country. Uh, and yeah, so they were focusing on and it was really cool. They had one thing about their design that was, that I really liked for the, they were smart, smart engineers for the program they were doing. They had CNC.[00:52:00] Blades on theirs.

So they said, when they crank up the speed in that wind tunnel, our blades aren’t gonna break. And so I asked them is that scale, is that scalable to the industry? And they just kind of looked at me and I was like, I don’t think so guys, but I mean, that wasn’t part of the thing they were. So they were fantastic engineers, a bunch of smart, uh, young minds, uh, coming up into the wind industry.

So it was exciting to see it. I liked it. Uh, the ACP included that in the 

Allen Hall: program, it was good. There were 12, 12 teams plus another four that were at the collegiate level. I just wanted read off their names. So because a lot of ’em actually listen to the podcast, as it turns out, Brigham young university, Cal state university maritime academy, James Madison, university, Texas tech, like you mentioned, Joel, Pennsylvania state.

So Penn state, Virginia tech university, Colorado Boulder, very beautiful place. Johns Hopkins outside Baltimore, Kansas state, which was the eventual winner. Northern Arizona university, university, Wisconsin, Madison, and Washington state university [00:53:00] Everett. And then there were four, what they call learn along team.

So they’re just getting their start in this, in this competition, California Polytechnic state university, um, Massachusetts maritime academy, which is close to us out here, university of Texas at Dallas, and then univers of dad, UN sorry, univers of dad, Anna G. Mendez. So that’s a pretty good group right there.

And hopefully, you know, GE or somebody Vestus offers these, these young students jobs when they come outta college, because they have that experience. That’s what this is all about. Right? So congratulations to Kansas state for winning first overall, uh, first place, uh, Northern Arizona came in second overall named James Madison university, uh, came in third overall, congratulations to everybody.

So the next competition is in new Orleans. And to enroll in that if your college is interested, you know, reach out to the DOE, just go on the DOE website, you can find out how to enroll for that competition. [00:54:00] So that’s gonna do it for the Upton podcast this week. Uh, check Rosie’s engineering, channel out engineering with Rosie on YouTube.

Uh, you can follow us on apple iTunes, apple podcast, and we’re also on YouTube. So you can find us on multiple platform. A lot of people like Spotify, where we’re in San Antonio, people mentioned to me that they listened to us on Spotify. And I thought that was, that was nice. Check us out on all your, on your listening platforms and listen to us next week on the uptime podcast.