Allen and Joel discuss the aggressive actions by the Trump administration against offshore wind projects. They also consider the broader implications for the wind industry, exploring onshore impacts, geopolitical maneuvers, and strategies for companies to adapt and prepare for future challenges. Register for the next SkySpecs webinar!

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You are listening to the Uptime Wind Energy Podcast brought to you by build turbines.com. Learn, train, and be a part of the Clean Energy Revolution. Visit build turbines.com today. Now here’s your hosts, Allen Hall, Joel Saxum, Phil Totaro, and Rosemary Barnes. 

Allen Hall: Welcome to the Uptime Wind Energy Podcast. I’m your host, Allen Hall, and I’m here with Joel Saxum, who’s up in Wisconsin.

Joel, you’ve had some really cold weather up there the last couple of days. It’s still September. Doesn’t really make sense, Alan. I dunno. It’s, it’s 

Joel Saxum: September, well, beginning of September and this morning when I let the dog out at 5:20 AM whatever time she decided to wake me up, it was 36 degrees here.

That means, you know what fall coming means is blade season for repairs in the northern hemispheres slowing down or shutting down shortly. So we’re gonna get to hear what happened. Maybe a postmortem, hopefully on the, the blade repair season in North America. 

Allen Hall: Yeah, it’s been busy from what I could tell.

And plus there’s a lot of construction going on. New insights. There’s, uh, all kinds of turbines being planted right now. We’re gonna be working through the end of the year easily, if the weather will support it. Very active time at the moment. And speaking of active time, this is our second take of this podcast, uh, just because so much has happened since we recorded last evening.

Uh, the federal government is now working to withdraw permits for New England Wind one and two off the coast of Massachusetts. These projects are valued at roughly $14.6 billion by Bloomberg, NEF, and we power more than 900,000 homes. Uh, but the, the issue really is why are they being shut down? Nobody really knows.

Uh, and there’s a lot of conjecture about it. And Joel, you and I were just talking before we recorded here. It may have something to do with Denmark. 

Joel Saxum: Yeah, I think you wanna believe that. Smoother minds will prevail that, uh, logic and pragmatism is a part of government. But what it really seems is there’s, there’s favoritism and there’s egos and there’s feelings driving some of these, these decisions.

And this day, Danish fight and all these different things happen in between the two organizations or the two countries there. So it’s just kind of like posturing and, and we’re back and forth and Sted is the big Danish company, right? So now Sted is feeling a little bit of. Pain from the Trump administration.

So the people who are close to Orid, IE, the Danish government come back and poke the bear on the side a little bit more. Um, so it just seems like there’s a lot of, a lot of egos and things going on, and, and that’s why it’s hard to make sense out of, right? So like, why is this happening? There’s no real reasons that we’re being told as the general public, right?

That or Ted and or their partners are just. Out. Like, how can you cancel a project in an offshore, uh, capacity that’s 80% complete? Doesn’t make sense, 

Allen Hall: right? So Revolution wind was shut down a, a week or two ago at this point, and uh, that happened immediately after Denmark, the prime Minister of Denmark and the delegation from Denmark met with Gavin Newsom, the governor of California, and then.

12 infrastructure projects that are supporting offshore wind development. The single largest loss is Humboldt Bay, offshore wind in Northern California. Again, another Gavin Newsom thing, which is gonna lose $427 million in federal support, and in Norfolk, Virginia, the Fairwinds landing facility. Uh, supporting Dominion’s Coastal Virginia Offshore Wind Project lost, uh, $39 million.

So it’s all the way to the top, Joel. It just feels like this is personal for some reason, and I don’t know how it got to this level. But it is becoming a little more irrational, uh, than it was maybe even six weeks ago. And I know Phil was really upset about it six weeks ago. And I genuinely agree. Like some of the comments coming outta the administration are on.

I, I would, I would say they were bonkers, maybe is the right term, just being polite, but unfounded maybe is a really good term. Uh, and, and now it’s like really escalated. 

Joel Saxum: I think that the general public, and so there’s a way, a couple ways to look at it. In my mind, I’m looking, is the hydrocarbon lobby this strong?

Western Hemisphere’s energy production. ’cause that’s what it’s looking like, right? Like the changes that they’re so extreme here have waterfall and cascading effects to all of the other economies around us. You’re seeing investment possibly pouring into Canada offshore wind there. So that’s changing their economy.

Changing our economy. Um, you’ll, you’ll see these things that. They’re not just going to affect here in the us they’re that these moves will affect globally. And you’ve, you’ve seen it, um, being pushed over to like these trade groups, going to from the us, going to the uk, going to Europe, you know, stop building wind, stop building wind.

And again, I I want to say this to the, the general public. If you don’t know these things, like, so transportation Secretary Sean Duffy, he’s the head of basically the federal DOT. The federal DOT is in charge of ports, so whenever you would go onto a port facility, you need what’s called a TWIC card transportation Worker identification card, and that’s a background check on you to make sure that you’re okay with the national interests to enter these facilities.

So that’s where you see. You have already heard in the news President Trump and Gavin Newsom, man, not the best of friends, right? So it’s California and and federal thing not going so well. So what is, what, what does the administration do then? Direct the transportation secretary to go pull funding from the ports in California.

That will directly affect the local economies, the jobs that offshore wind build out and up. Some of these projects that are already ongoing, they’ve already done things like there’s already, there’s already shovels moving dirt on some of those sites. So. You see this power that they have and that, that they’re moving and grooving to, to be able to basically put a stranglehold on offshore wind in the United States.

Allen Hall: Well, yeah. And today, lawsuits really started flying. We figured at some 0.1 of the developers was gonna file a lawsuit or the states were going to file a lawsuit. And all of the above has just happened. So Rhode Island in Connecticut, uh, and project. Developer Orid for and Sky borne renewables are going to challenge the Trump administration’s halt of the Revolution Wind Project.

Now there’s a lot going on behind the scenes, so you’re just hearing dribs and drabs at this point. But basically the, the lawsuit says there’s process violations. Now those sound arcane, like, oh, it’s a process violation. No big deal. Well, it is a big deal because there’s so much money behind it, and it affects so many, so many jobs.

And my guess is that Orid is still waiting to hear the real issue. Like is there a, a, a legal issue that was a rationale for BOEM to shut off Revolution wind? And I think the answer is probably no. It’s more like it’s a national interest. Problem. We have defense problems with these wind turbines being in the water.

That is usually not enough to trigger a stoppage. So unless somebody pushes back, the Trump administration can continue to do this. I, my guess is that the, the States knowing that, and a lot of those people have worked in Washington, DC and they all have. Good attorneys, particularly up in the northeast’s.

You’ve, 

Joel Saxum: you’ve pinpointed the two things, right? And. One problem I see there is if a deal isn’t struck, this is Trump 1 0 1, the art of the deal, right? This is what he is been doing to other countries, you know, come in strong arm and then go, oh, you don’t like that. Uh, let’s negotiate something. Maybe we get something that we want.

You’re like, come in with a high price, even though you know you want this one and you can settle for that. That’s probably what’s going to happen. Now, if, and, and that’s in my opinion, right? But if that doesn’t, the trouble here is that we’re now tied up in a legal process. Legal processes can drag and drag and drag and drag forever, right?

By having a situation where you can’t, as an outside investor, you can’t count on things, right? It would just be like if you were, if you were gonna buy a new car and all of a sudden the, you’ve got, you were basically taking ownership of the car and then they changed the terms of the loan or told you you couldn’t drive it, you know, only but Tuesday nights or something of that sort like this, I, I don’t want that anymore.

You know, I’m not gonna invest in that. Um, so. There isn’t a really, I guess, in my opinion, what’s happening here. I’m hoping for the best. Right? But the what looks like the writing on the wall is like, it’s just not a good outcome. Um, for offshore wind in the United States, 

Everything stops. So now it’s retribution. It’s it’s payback time. We’re going to flex the other way and watch what we can do with our pen and our phone. Like, okay. Both sides need to stop this nonsense because 330 million Americans are caught in the middle and cutting electricity. Off in some sense. I mean, reducing the supply of electricity, which is what is about to happen, uh, is gonna be a huge problem.

They know what the price of gas is, they know what the price of electricity is, uh, and they know the price of eggs and milking, right? Those are bread or the, or the key consumer items. If any of those start to fluctuate on any. Grand scale more than a couple percentage points, there’s hell to pay as a politician.

And I’m just curious as to what Congress is thinking right now. Like, how long is this gonna go on before there’s retribution, payback from my constituents? Do I lose my seat? Maybe they’re willing to do that, but I, it doesn’t seem like anybody’s, uh, upset about it, right. Yet. 

Joel Saxum: You’ve already seen posturing on that exact topic, though you’ve already seen.

This is economics 1 0 1, supply and demand, right? You’re cutting. Supply and demand is increasing. We know this one to 3%. I think last year the number was 2.5%, which was like a, which is a record since. Decades. Right. And that’s only gonna get more and more extreme as we start to build, uh, more of these AI data centers things that we as the consumers of the electricity are also the consumers of the AI data centers we’re driving that demand ourselves.

So like basically with we’re standing and, and digging dirt and then throwing it on our own sheet. Is what’s happening. And there is a mechanism to lift us out of this more generation on the grid, and that’s being canceled at the same time that we’re also shutting down coal plants and stuff. So we’re, we’re, we’re trying to decarbonize, we’re making moves away from this, but there’s just this, this simple equations, this is not PhD level stuff.

They want, if the business case makes sense to power these data centers. They’re gonna make power and they’re gonna make it happen. They’re just not gonna deal with the, the garbage going on. Politically. That’s, that’s my take. Now, you can’t do that in offshore wind, because that’s your federal government waters.

It’d be the same thing as if you were. Trying to do that on BLM, federal lands and the on onshore, you’re not gonna be able to do that, but if you can do it on private land, that’s gonna happen. 

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Joel Saxum: Migratory Bird Act. 

Allen Hall: Yeah, the Migratory Bird Act. And there’s others.

I mean, I, I’m sure the administration is scouring the rule books and law books looking for other things to poke at. One of the things that has been discussed, uh, at least in the press in several different areas, is permits. For private land where wind or solar will be installed, what permits does the Fed have to issue for those projects?

In Texas, they tried to just pass a law that was 3000 foot setbacks to to wind turbines from a property line, which essentially makes you have to have like 6,000. 50 foot wide and piece of property to put one turbine in the middle, uh, which is ridiculous to have a piece of property over a mile across, uh, that didn’t pass either way.

But there’s certain rules of those types. Now, if you want to be behind the grid, you don’t have to ab, you don’t have to abide by all of the NERC rulings, the FERC rulings, the, you know, whatever your operator is, the miso, the ercot, the pjm. You don’t have to abide by that stuff if you’re behind the grid.

Then the counter suing party comes back and says, well, this is. Eminent domain because it’s good for public use for the data center that it’s powering and these kind of things. That becomes a long, drawn out legal battle. I think it’ll be 

Allen Hall: many years. And if the Trump administration defers and all that and says, oh, we agree with the plaintiff in the case, sure.

Right. And which which can happen. Right. And this is what’s happening. An offshore wind at the minute that, uh, any legal case brought against offshore wind, uh, against the federal government that the Trump administration saying, we surrender. You’re right. Sure. We’ll pull the permits to satisfy this lawsuit.

Allen Hall: no changes to the outcome of that project. Right. And there’s no layout changes.

There’s no cabling changes. At least from what we have seen, we haven’t seen any changes at all. Yeah. So what’s the 

Joel Saxum: deal? Right? Like what’s, it’s just like, again, it’s this, it’s a, it’s a negotiation tool. It’s something, there’s something going on there that just doesn’t. It doesn’t make sense. 

Allen Hall: It doesn’t extrude maximum pain when you have jack up vessels and several hundred people out on the water.

That’s a time where it hurts the most when you’re almost done, not permitted in making power, but just before then is the time of most pain because all the money has been pouring out and now you’re just adding fuel to the fire. Every day the jack up vessel sits there. 

So they. Had to be a minority partner or something of that sort. So I think that that could be a part of the play too. Like, okay, we, we, we alluded to this possibility of, you know, the administration pulling one over on Denmark because of Ted. Uh, but now the one company that has a, uh, that is, uh, US owned, which is Dominion Energy, that has coastal Virginia offshore wind.

They’re under a microscope now. Oh, I would say so. Yeah. I almost guarantee it. I would say in the next few weeks they’ll have something pop. Well, we’re gonna hear something pop up about that wind farm where they’re pulling a permit or reviewing something or whatever, but they’re gonna, cause the administration’s gonna cause pain to them as 

Allen Hall: well.

And then you get down to the, the small companies like Weather Guard, honestly, you know, we’re probably as small as you can get in wind, quite honestly. Uh, and then there’s, you know, there’s everybody in the middle. Uh. ISPs, there’s all the technology companies, there’s all the tax advisors, all of the multiple levels of people, engineering companies that are all involved in win from beginning to end.

What are they gonna be doing? What is the plan of attack there? How do you address this kind of threat to the industry? 

What you see is a massive, we’re talking wind now, not all renewables. You see a massive slowdown in greenfield development in 28. We know that there’s gonna be a, a push. It’s big time right now. We’ve been on sites in the last month, right? Um, that they, it’s blowing and going. We got cranes everywhere. We got people everywhere.

EPCs are scrambling to get stuff done. Um, so that the industry’s moving fast, moving forward in an efficient and safe manner to get as many of these projects built as they can before these, uh, you know. Cliffs show up in front of us. So, but we, either way, we have this window where the EPC contractors, the, these feed study engineering companies, the environmental review companies, all of the people that are associated with Greenfield are gonna be super, super, super busy.

However, I can’t, nobody can guarantee that. So I would par if I was involved in as an EPC, as a TFA type, small ISP, that does the technical field advising for construction. I would use all of the might you have right now and all of the cash reserves you’re building to open up another silo, revenue silo of your business to do operations and maintenance, uh, because that will continue, right?

I believe that we’ll start to see some more m and a activity in wind, um, pushing from the big guys down. You’re gonna see the larger groups that are multifaceted already or are looking to be more multifaceted, grabbing the specialists, smaller companies. Grabbing blade company with 30 techs, that kind of stuff, right?

Or those kind of things are gonna, they’re gonna be up for sale. We’re gonna see some of that happening for sure. Um, you, we’ve already seen some of the operators start to size down their development groups. Um, repowers being accomplished project on the project management side by people who aren’t necessarily CapEx, project management type people, because these companies don’t wanna bring those new resources on.

Um. This is more I’m, you know, speaking onshore here, right? Offshore wise, some people will, unfortunately, some people are gonna lose their jobs. We’ve seen that happen already. We’ve seen some, some massive amounts of layoffs in the offshore world. So it’s not awesome. But there is gonna be some long-term projects and some long-term things that will stay in place and those people will stay around.

Um, but either way, I would say onshore wise. Offshore gear up, and this is a global thing for me, but gear up for o and m As the fleet grows, it’s still gonna be ma 

Allen Hall: need to be maintained. It’s important words of wisdom there. I think everybody needs to be looking at their books at the minute, understanding how their business is operating.

But you’re right, Joel, I think the opportunity in. Uh, sites that are not connected to the grid, that are, you know, powering AI data centers all over the place. I think you’re gonna see activity there. Solar, wind, batteries, all the above. That’s cheap, quick to install and does the job or, or what’s gonna happen.

And that may change your business, may change your outlook, but I, I think you need to be watching for that closely. And then, like Joel said, expanding your horizons. Figure out where there’s other opportunities. We did 

Joel Saxum: have, 

Allen Hall: uh, 

We know you have a large network of people and you know, some of the innovative solutions that are out there. Some of the new technologies, some of the new even software solutions. We are in the process of basically doing a deep dive into what is out there in the wind world, what can help us save some money off, make our operations more efficient, uh, guarantee or increase uptime, like all of these little things, right?

Like the products, like the strike tapes of the world or, um, you know, we’ve been doing these webinars as Sky Spec, some of the software solutions they have. Um, that can, you know, monitor things, keep things healthier, uh, optimize your o and m strategy. And this was a company that was like, we have an initiative as a group, as an engineering team.

Allen Hall: Yeah, we’re connected. And I think maybe you don’t think a podcast is really connected to the underbelly of an industry, but we know where the technology exists because we’ve talked to them.

They may not even been on the show. Uh, but we have talked to them. Usually it’s hard for a good technology company to miss the Uptime Wind Energy Podcast. And Joel, you’re right, it has happened a couple of times, but I think it’s gonna happen more often. And it’s a, we’ve been offering that honestly, if you need to know where the technology is or where others have taken advantage of a technology.

Call us. We’d be glad to share that information with you. Give us your problem statement. Yeah. We’re trying to promote the industry. This is the whole reason this podcast exists, is to get the industry to connect to itself. It’s a global industry. There’s a lot of cool things happening all over the world.

But once you’re on the podcast, they’re searchable. And now you can take a deep look and go, oh, there’s a couple of companies doing what I was looking for, and let me call ’em and let me talk to the person I saw on the podcast. That’s the way it’s done. And so if you talk to operators that have used the podcast properly, that’s what they do.

They’re connecting up and getting those answers faster. And getting to the right people in those companies immediately instead of trying to connect, connect, connect, spend months at this or taking hours minutes to do it. It’s a smart move. You’ve got questions about 

Joel Saxum: anything? Uh, Joel, do saxon@wglightning.com Always happy to respond or shoot me a message on LinkedIn.

Allen Hall: that.

Wraps another episode outta the Uptime Wind Energy podcast. Thanks for joining us as we explore the latest in wind energy technology and industry insights. If today’s discussion sparked any questions or ideas, we’d love to hear from you. Reach out to us on LinkedIn and don’t forget to subscribe so you never miss an episode.