Laura O’Sullivan is a trial and appellate attorney with over 20 years of legal experience. Currently an Assistant Public Defender in the state of Missouri, she previously was an Associate Clinical Professor at the University of Missouri, Kansas City School of Law, and held a variety of other positions including at the Midwest Innocence Project. Laura’s specialties include trials, post convictions, criminal and family law, teaching students, and training attorneys, managers, investigators and support staff.

During the young man’s trial, several witnesses helped tell the story of his life. The jury’s decision restored Laura’s confidence in the love and openness of people to really listen and to reach a verdict based not just on the incident at hand, but instead on a person’s whole life.

Laura discusses how she doesn’t grow bitter and cynical representing clients who sometimes have done terrible things. She shares that often her clients have had difficult childhoods and are suffering from addiction or mental health issues and are facing a system that has failed. She’s learned from her clients that people have different needs, and sometimes a need is to be heard. Her role is not to control, but instead “to do the best (she) can and to help her clients through what is probably one the most difficult times in their lives.”

Laura then turns to her work on constitutional challenges in Missouri.  “Missouri’s public defender system is 49^th out of the 50 states in terms of funding. So, we have an underfunded and overworked public defender system. We have more clients than we can handle. What we’ve done in Kansas City is to look at our ethical obligations and the constitutional rights of our clients to have an attorney.”  Clients, attorneys, and the ACLU sued various state offices.  An update can be read here.

Laura finishes with a story about a client who was a representation of the strength of heart and strength of mind.

Scott Glovsky:

Welcome to Trial Lawyer Talk. I’m Scott Glovsky, and I’m your host for this podcast where we speak with some of the best trial lawyers in the United States. We simply have great lawyers tell great stories from cases that had a profound impact on them. So let’s get started.

I’m very glad to be sitting with Laura O’Sullivan, a friend who I’ve known for many years. She’s a wonderful criminal defense lawyer, who practices in Kansas City and is really leading some very important constitutional challenges that we’ll talk about in a bit. Laura, thanks so much for being with us.

Laura O’Sullivan:

Thank you so much for having me.

Scott Glovsky:

Laura, can you share with us the story of a case that had a profound impact on you?

Laura O’Sullivan:

Yeah, actually it’s a recent case that I handled with a client, it was a young man, had been in foster care all of his life and really had a tumultuous childhood and he was charged and we took his case to trial. He was facing some pretty serious and lifelong consequences, and there were allegations of inappropriate behavior with some other children. We fought a valiant fight, I think, on his behalf and the jury ended up returning verdicts of guilty, one of a lesser crime, so of a misdemeanor, and another one of a serious felony.

And in Missouri, we got a sentencing phase for people who have no prior convictions. And so we went to that sentencing phase and I will never forget it, because I started that sentencing phase before the jury crying. And telling them that obviously we were devastated by the verdict, but that we saw how long they were out and that we accepted their verdict and that we really hoped that they would listen during this phase to information about his life, and that they would sentence him as an entire person, not just as a result of the acts that they had found him guilty of.

And the jury really paid attention and really listened. And we had several witnesses and they went up and they deliberated for a very long time. And they came back in this extremely difficult case with verdicts that really did take into account the information that we provided to them in a very difficult case. And so they ended up sentencing him to the minimum on the felony and within the range on the misdemeanor.

My confidence in the love and the openness of people, to really listen and make a determination based on somebody’s whole life was really restored.

Scott Glovsky:

Let’s deconstruct that a little bit and back up because for you to get there, you must have listened. So take us back to that courtroom when you started crying and how did you get there?

Laura O’Sullivan:

Well, one way I got there is because I loved my client, and it’s a difficult thing when you’re a public defender getting enough time with your clients. This client happened to be out on bond. And so I was able to count on him to come by my office and to help me really … And he would come by my office and we would spend time together and I got all of his background information. So, the first place is coming from a place of truly loving him and really understanding and listening to his childhood.

Scott Glovsky:

Well, tell us his story.

Laura O’Sullivan:

He grew up in a sort of large family, but his family had addiction issues. And so it ended up that he was taken away by the division of family services and he was placed in a group home because he was too old to be adopted. So he had grown up in a super tumultuous family, where the mom and dad are not really there. They’re gone for periods of time and he and his brothers and sisters are fending for themselves as young kids.

So then they end up getting taken into foster care or group home, and he never had a family until the very end when he was about 18. He moved in with this family. And for the first time he’s living with this group of people at what he thought was a family, and they really ended up betraying him. And he was the odd man out in this whole family dynamic.

So, because of his trauma through his childhood, the way he would react to situations is he would withdraw. He wasn’t the kind of person who would defend himself. He would withdraw within himself and so he was really a loner. And had some difficulty in those skills of getting along with people. And so it sort of made him an easy target for this allegation. And I think that’s what ended up getting him to my office.

But in the sentencing hearing, the other things I learned about him were that when he got out on bond, his therapist from when he was in foster care offered to have him live at his home. And that told me so much about him, about both the therapist and about my client. So, he had that support, he had a job and the people who gave him a job, that couple would have him over for dinner, and they came and testified.

And his sister who had really fought for him when she was younger, but well she was too young also. She came in and spent all of her money, including her money for rent to get to court, to be able to be there to testify for him. So, it was an interesting look at a young man’s life, who had this tumultuous past, but also had all of these relationships from people who really loved and cared for him.

Scott Glovsky:

How do you not become bitter and cynical when you’re spending your life representing lots of folks who’ve done some terrible things?

Laura O’Sullivan:

I kind of consider those two different questions. So, I often am representing people who, most of the people that I represent have committed some sort of crime. So, the statistics bear out that the majority of my clients have committed some sort of offense and my job is to work with them, to educate them on the system and to come out with, hopefully to help them come to the best possible result for them.

And that may mean that they’re not charged correctly. The charge is way too high and really their offense is much less, or it could be that they have things in their life that are, what we call mitigating or there’s good parts about them that they should get credit for, sort of.

And so, generally I am there to help the person in front of me. And for the most part, I get along very well with most of my clients. They’re often suffering from some sort of addiction issue or mental health. Those are the two primary issues and they’re rampant. And so, but also I would say there’s a great percentage of the people that I represent that have grown up in, had difficult childhood and really, haven’t had certainly the benefits that I had.

The second part is how do I represent people and not become bitter? I think really, I find that to be the more challenging aspect. Because I do get to know my clients, and I do care for them. And when I see a system that I think has failed. So the story I just told you, I don’t agree with their first verdict. But I have to set that aside, so that I can get the best possible results, even though I disagree with their first verdict of guilty.

So, that happens and it happens more often than I’d like, but I also have to remember that I’m not in charge. I’m not in charge of this big world. And oftentimes I think I know what the right thing is, but the one thing I have learned is, I don’t always know what the right thing is.

And so all I can do is be there to provide the best information to my client who’s it’s their case, not my case. I’m there to guide them and to provide them with the best information to make the decisions that are right for them. And beyond that, we’ve just got to do our best and hope for the best.

Scott Glovsky:

I think that’s an interesting lesson because as trial lawyers, many of us feel the need to control everything.

Laura O’Sullivan:

Right.

Scott Glovsky:

And how have you learned that we can’t control everything?

Laura O’Sullivan:

I think that it is, because when I realize I’m not in control of everything, I think things turn out better, honestly. And I’ve learned a lot from my clients. And one of the things that I’ve learned from my clients is that, I can’t make their decisions. So, when I was a young lawyer I used to think I knew what was right. Oh, you should take this deal or don’t go to trial.

What I realized is that, people have different needs. And so one need of a client may be that they need to tell their story and whatever the outcome they need to be heard, and that maybe more important than the number of years that they get or the outcome. And so it’s been really helpful to me to learn these lessons as I go along the way and hear my client tell me what they need, and that’s I think the most important thing. And then from there what I realize is, control is not real.

Scott Glovsky:

Say more.

Laura O’Sullivan:

I think if you think you that you’re in control of something, you really probably are not. None of us are in control, and I certainly don’t have the ability to control jurors or judges or opposing counsel, and certainly my goal should not be to control my client.

I think that just gets you into an impossible situation that is incredibly frustrating. And I say that from experience, from having tried to control situations in the past, and in my opinion, it’s much better to just recognize from the get-go that I’m not in control, I’m here to do the best I can and to help my client through what is probably one of the most difficult times in their lives.

Scott Glovsky:

Speaking of not being in control, I know that you’re doing some amazing work with some constitutional challenges in Missouri. Can you tell us about that?

Laura O’Sullivan:

Yeah. So, it’s well documented that the Missouri Public Defender System is, I believe it’s 49th out of 50 of the States in terms of funding. And so we have an underfunded and overworked Public Defender System and it’s one of the worst in the country in terms of paying and in terms of overload in cases. And so, what that means is we just have too many clients, we have more clients than we can handle, and what that means is that poor people are not getting the representation that they deserve, number one.

But number two, the people who represent poor people are being treated differently than attorneys who graduated from the same law school, maybe ranked above or ranked below that happened to go to a different law firm. And so we have a lot of great people who want to help others who are being treated differently than other attorneys.

So, what we’ve done in Kansas City is to look at our ethical obligations and the constitutional rights of our clients to have an attorney. Not a person standing next to them that they’ve met once or twice, but to have an attorney who’s investigated the case and who they are able to form a relationship and trust with. And so what we’ve done is we’ve let the court know that as we look at our ethical obligations, our ethical obligations say that we can only as an attorney accept that as many cases as we know we can appropriately handle.

And for those other people who the court wants to appoint to us, we have to form a postponement list, where we say, “We want to get to you, but we have too many cases right now.” And so we are doing that because our ethical rules tell us that we have to. It says, “We shall not accept more cases than we can handle.”

So, we’re fighting this fight both on individual attorney basis, as well as on that constitutional basis that the client has. And the way that it could impact the attorneys in our office is, we’ve had a couple of attorneys in our system who have been disciplined by the bar for not communicating enough or failing to do something in a sentencing hearing with another person.

And in arguing those cases, the Supreme Court said, “We’re not going to treat your attorneys differently. Just because they work for the public defender’s office, they should have the same obligations.” And so what we’re saying to the court is, “Okay. If that’s the way that we should be approaching this, then we need to do this.” And that’s meeting with a lot of resistance by the courts.

Scott Glovsky:

So what’s the status of the dispute or litigation.

Laura O’Sullivan:

So, we’re fighting it on multiple tracks or it’s being fought. The track that we are fighting it, there’s a hearing that is scheduled at the end of this month, May 30th I believe, in Kansas City for the presiding judge to hear a pleading that we filed, our office filed saying our office has attorneys that are overloaded, and we want to start a wait list. Okay.

Laura O’Sullivan:

So that’s a statutory, there’s a statute in place that allows us to try and do that. The other thing that’s happening is the ACLU sued our system and said, “You have too many cases. You’re not representing the clients appropriately.” That case, the Public Defender System and ACLU have come to an agreement and want to sign a consent decree that would allow us to have caseload standards in our system. The Missouri attorney general just filed a motion to intervene. And in there suggests that the public defenders are just trying to work a 40 hour week and they’re just lazy.

Scott Glovsky:

Wow. Do you think that’ll go up to the Supreme Court?

Laura O’Sullivan:

So, I don’t know if the federal judge will allow the Missouri attorney general to intervene. So we’ll see that, whether that happens or not. And if it does, I don’t know where that might go. We’re hopeful that they will be allowed to just do the decree and we can … because that case has been pending for a couple of years now. It took a while to get to this point. In terms of the hearing that we have in Kansas City, if the court does not find that we’re overloaded, then I’m sure that we would appeal that.

Scott Glovsky:

Can you share with us a story of a case where you learned something profound?

Laura O’Sullivan:

Yeah. What immediately jumped to mind actually has to do with a case that I worked on where a client was exonerated, actually. So I had a client who was in prison for 30 years for a rape, and I got involved and we were able to fund some DNA testing that proved, that not only proved that he did not do it, but actually identified the real perpetrators. And what I learned was, I learned it from my client. And I think it’s the power of forgiveness and the power of moving forward and not looking back.

So, this gentleman got out of prison after 30 years, and all he really wanted was to get a job and to get an apartment of his own and live his life in a quiet, unassuming manner. And that’s what he’s doing. And when I see him and I think about some of the problems that I have, he’s such a representation of strength and strength of heart and strength of mind. I think both.

Scott Glovsky:

What advice do you have for young lawyers out there, and especially public defenders?

Laura O’Sullivan:

Trust your gut, ask for help and treat people the way you would like to be treated. And I think if you do those things that you will have a really good start. But I think the people who get in trouble here and there are the people who decide they should come into the courtroom thinking and looking and acting like they know everything and that it’s their courtroom and that they’re in charge. And the reality is usually it’s the clerk’s courtroom. They’re the ones who are running it, and you don’t know everything. And so you should show others respect and ask questions and show some humility, and I think that’ll get you a long way, both with court personnel and other attorneys.

Scott Glovsky:

Laura, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and for the fight, the courageous fight that you’re waging in Missouri, which really is an example for lawyers all over the country to doing what’s ethical and what’s right, despite the pressures and the feeling of fighting the system. And thanks for joining us.

Laura O’Sullivan:

Thank you. And I would hope that other attorneys that don’t practice criminal law will take a moment to support our efforts, both in Missouri and around the country.

Scott Glovsky:

Thank you so much.

Scott Glovsky:

Thank you for joining us today for Trial Lawyer Talk. If you like the show, I’d really appreciate if you could give us a good review on iTunes and I’d love to get your feedback. You can reach me at www.scottglovsky.com. That’s S-C-O-T-T-G-L-O-V-S-K-Y.com and I’d love to hear your feedback.

You can also check out the book that I published called Fighting Health Insurance Denials: A Primer for Lawyers that’s on Amazon. I put the book together based on 20 years of suing health insurance companies for denying medical care to people. And it provides a general outline of how to fight health insurance denials. Have a great week and we’ll talk to you in the next episode.

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