Ray and Jock reach the iconic chapter of the book and chat about why it's fruitless to wrestle with pigs, the harsh realisation that sometimes you are in fact the pig, and how that taints your ability to lead.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYm0eliGjiA

Ray Rafiq-Omar is the founder of increasingly large businesses: Regent Street Cinema, Baker Street Bakery, Wigwamm, GetAgent, Unmortgage.

Jock Busuttil is the founder of Product People Limited, a freelance head of product, author and conference speaker, with over two decades' experience helping technology companies. (jockbusuttil.com)

Recorded on 22 January 2021Music: Crazy Glue (Instrumental Version) by Josh Woodward (CC-BY 4.0)