Welcome to today’s episode of The Communication Solution podcast with Casey Jackson, John Gilbert and Danielle Cantin. We love talking about Motivational Interviewing, and about improving outcomes for individuals, organizations, and the communities that they serve. The podcast features a guest, Falin Wilson, a counselor at OnTrack Academy, who shares his experiences and revelations in applying motivational interviewing techniques in his work with youth. The conversation navigates the intricacies of effective communication, the impact of empathetic listening, and the journey of guiding individuals towards their own solutions and success.

• Understanding Motivational Interviewing: Exploring its importance in effective communication and its application in real-world scenarios.
  
• The Journey of Learning MI: Falin Wilson shares his transition from academic knowledge to practical application of motivational interviewing.
  
• The Art of Conversation in MI: Discussing how motivational interviewing is akin to having a natural conversation, tuning into the individual’s thoughts and emotions.
  
• Navigating Ambivalence: Strategies for addressing and embracing ambivalence in conversations.
  
• The Impact of Double-Sided Reflection: Utilizing this technique to prompt individuals to explore their own solutions and desires.
  
• Integrating Brain Science: Discussing how understanding brain functions enhances the effectiveness of motivational interviewing.
  
• Recognizing Resistance and Change Talk: Identifying these key elements in conversations and using them to guide individuals towards their goals.
  
• Professional Responsibility in Communication: Emphasizing the importance of not imposing one’s own narrative but facilitating the client’s self-exploration.
  
• Empathy and Focus in MI: Highlighting the role of empathy in understanding the individual’s perspective and maintaining focus on their goals.
  
• Building Pathways to Success: Discussing how motivational interviewing helps in constructing mental and emotional pathways that lead to personal success and change.
  

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Thank you for listening to the communication solution. This podcast is all about you. If you have questions, thoughts, topic suggestions, or ideas, please send them our way at casey@ifioc.com. For more resources, feel free to check out ifioc.com. 

 Hello, and welcome to the communication solution podcast with Casey Jackson and John Gilbert. I’m your host, Danielle Canton here at the Institute for Individual and Organizational Change, otherwise known as IFIOC. We love to talk about communication. We love to talk about solutions, and we love to talk about providing measurable results for individuals, organizations, and the communities they serve.

Welcome. To the communication solution that will change your world. Hello, this is Casey Jackson back for another communication solution. And I’ve got a guest on here, Falin Wilson.  He is a counselor at OnTrack Academy.  Working with youth in, in the school system and alternative school. And Falin’s been through,  A few trainings with me and he’s one of those guys that,  will come up a break and come up after the class is over and ask really pointed questions and wants to know the answer.

And so I said, Falin, would you come on to the podcast and ask some of those questions that you’d like to ask from training? So,  so good to have you here, Falin. Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. They were always never meant to be pointed, but I,  definitely wanted to know some of those,  those,  answers.

Yes. So what’s been your intrigue? Because you do, you know, even in the more recent training that we had, I can see your brain in the room really genuinely doing application and processing. What, what draws you into motivational more viewing or the concepts and. And get your brain to start to chew on it more because I watch you process it in the training,  and, and trying to integrate it more.

I mean, what, what’s going through your head? I mean, why does this integrate for you? Why does this resonate with you? I think when I was in graduate school, we were learning about it. I thought it was kind of interesting, but it never really caught my attention. And then we went to, so Spokane Public Schools offered a MI training through you and I was like, okay, I’ll try it.

And the way that you approached the whole MI aspect, kind of like a brain, like a view of the brain, and kind of breaking it down that way was probably the most helpful I’ve ever seen it.  And that was really intriguing to me, because you said that it’s a conversation. It’s just like, you’re having a conversation with somebody, right, and you’re tuning into what they’re saying, and then you’re trying to navigate from that.

And I found that to be, like, the most fascinating thing ever, just because, like, you’re working with the brain. And you’re trying to figure out where it’s at and all this processing. And I think the more that I continue to learn about it, I was like, there’s this really thing, the awesome thing that Casey’s doing, I just don’t know how to implement it.

So the second time I came back and we kind of, you kind of like walked us through more of like some of that advanced and then kind of going over that, like beginner stuff again, I found that really helpful because it kind of just solidified, like. It really is a conversation and you can do it in a few minutes.

And even though it’s really hard sometimes, like anybody can build these skills, but it’s, I think that we’re so bad at communicating. I feel that we really are. And I was like, well, I would love to just learn better ways of being like a better person, like better communicator. That’s great. It’s, it’s interesting too, because I, if I’ve heard this often that especially kind of the college version or, you know, grad school version of motivational meaning doesn’t catch like, there’s something there.

But then people don’t tend to gravitate it towards it as much what I hear in a lot of my trainings. And so,  I think once you get into the real world and you’re working in the real world, you can start to see some of that crosswalk between some of the core constructs and then look at it as just kind of, how does this work?

I, my favorite thing is always based in reality, like based in reality, how would this really work? I mean, you’ve got, you work with kids that struggle, you know, with in an alternative. Amazing wraparound in high school. I know that I know that program fairly well. I’ve done training for on track. What I think of is when you’re in those conversations, what are some things that you see almost cross reference between like, wow, like, this is a moment like I can see now from what I’ve learned to the way that this new vantage point I’m looking at it from what do you notice with either, you know, the colleagues you work with or with the students you work with?

Things you’re starting to notice more while I’m using, am I, yeah, or opportunities to the missed opportunities. Like after the fact there was this really fun one. I was working with a student who uses substances, right. And I had asked that question at the end of the seminar. I was just like, how do you, like you get them to wrap their arms around it, or you wrap their arms around their tree tire, right?

Yeah. Cause like you want to double down on the,  like sustained talk before they do. Yes. I was like, it seems so counterintuitive, right? But like, the way he had talked about it was so good. So I was like, okay, like, like, what the hell? Like, I’ll give it a shot. So I was like, okay. So I go in with my client and I’m like, you know that you’re never gonna, like, you know that you’re not gonna use, or sorry, you know that you’re gonna continue to use and that you’re not gonna quit.

Like, what would that even look like? You know that you’re not though. And she was like, I know that I’m not. And then she gave me the solution, like, she was like, that could look like this. And then the example she gave was like, cutting down to, to smoking, like,  two to three times a week instead of every day.

So I was like, oh my gosh, like, that’s awesome. Um. And then sometimes I found it kind of difficult to, like, double down often, like,  So, like, using substances, right, I can be like, Oh, you know that you’re not gonna stop using, like, what would that even look like? And, like, wrap their arms tighter. But I don’t know other scenarios where, like, I could try to apply that.

Or I guess I struggle with trying to identify them. Because I see the potential and how helpful it is. Right. Because you’re getting the brain to engage in change. Talk.  I guess I’m just trying to figure out like how else I can apply that. Like, those would be some of the missed opportunities if that makes sense.

It does. I think what the, and the population you work with, the thing I think of too is at least what I hear quite a bit about and with youth that I work with is just around sex as well too. Or, you know, just some of those situations what you’re thinking when I think about it through the M. I. lens and.

And how to make it an organic conversation that doesn’t feel like you’re trying to use a technique, you know, and you can see how organic it sounds when it’s like, you know, you’re never gonna stop smoking weed. You know, you’re never gonna stop using.  So that’s that’s yours. But if you did, what might it change here?

It’s that part just. It allows the sustained talk to feel so heard and understood that it just opens the door to allow change to come in. Because, you know, when I think of youth, I think of anybody, when I think of youth, they’ve got the other side that goes through their head. If they’re laying in bed at night, just thinking about their situation, they They know both sides of the equation or have entertained both sides of the equation.

So just like you said, let them double down on their stuck talk. I, so I think about that with sexual situations, you know, you’re going to continue to have sex, you know, that’s, that’s just not going to stop.  But then there’s this other party that’s thinking, you know, what, what would be different if you weren’t doing that?

Does that make sense? So, I mean, it’s almost any topic you’re dealing with youth. Anything that they tend to be overly invested in and honestly, Falin, for me, when I think that strategy with youth, as soon as I can feel my writing reflex clicking in, like, I’m never going to stop smoking weed or no, I’m going to keep having sex.

I’m going to keep doing this. I’m going to keep doing that. I’m going to keep doing this. That when my writing reflex wants to try to counterbalance it with my narrative, that’s when I tend to think of that particular. technique of being able to just go, okay, take a deep breath, lean into there’s even harder, give them that a hundred percent and say, since that sure is a hundred percent, what would it look like if knowing that you’re not going to, but what would it look like?

I don’t that helps, but what your thoughts on that? No, I think it does help because it, and I think that’s what I love motivational interviewing so much because it really is just a dialogue. Like you are listening because you, you said, like, if you just can quiet your brain for a minute and listen to a conversation and trust that you’re going to hear what they’re saying and focus on the, like, resistant talk, change, talk, sustain, talk, and like, identify those, it’s going to be easier for you to navigate those conversations.

And so I think even sitting here. Like we’re talking about doubling down, like if I’m with a client and I double down, right, like I can double down on anything, like beat them to that punch and then offer that, like offering the brain to, yeah, exactly to engage in that,  change talk,  is super helpful because it’s applicable to literally anything, like any conversation, like I mean, there has to be ambiguity, like you said, or,  ambivalence, but yeah, I think it’s just so cool when you’re able to like, Oh my goodness.

Like there’s a person who’s struggling with identifying something. I can help them figure this out without ever influencing my, my opinions on them. Like my writing reflex. Yeah. Well, and that’s what I like about the, the thing that clicks for you in terms of just being fascinated with healthier, functional communication.

That is what I. You know, get so intrigued with what this is like, how do we have conversations where I don’t have to manipulate, or I’m not trying to play them, or I just want to help their brain function more effectively. And I think that’s some of that structure of MI that you resonate with. And it’s not.

It’s not just the technique side of things, because that technique side tends to go sideways in personal relationships when you try to use technique, but when you are just genuinely present with someone stepping inside their worldview, looking at where you can see the potential for ambivalence that exists.

And then just thinking, what is their brain hanging on to? What does their brain want to let go of? But it requires that foundational genuine empathy to be inside their brain and get a gut sense of it instead of being kind of fishbowl observer and trying to help them fix it, which is what, again, most people get paid to do.

In our field is, you know, we see the problem. We assess it. We ask a bunch of questions and then we give them the plan that they need to follow if they’re going to get better. Yeah. And you said like questions put stress on the brain and I like really stuck with me because I was like, right. You want to use questions very intentionally if you ever do them.

But there was something that we had done, like we had done the MI training the next day when I went into session. I was just like, I want to stay, if I see if I can stay in MI like the entire time, like the whole 15 minutes and really challenge myself. And like, oh my gosh, it was. There were parts where I’m like, okay, where are we going?

Right. Yes. But there were other parts where like, I could watch her self correct, like hitting on the key parts of that conversation. And at the very end of it, she had said this and it just blew my mind, but she was like, I want to be successful. And I was like, you want to be successful, like, that’s the top of your mountain, like, you, that’s where you want to go, and like, you are doing what you need to do right now to be successful, you’re changing your classes, you are taking care of yourself, because that’s so important to you, and she was like, yes, like, and that, I just look, like, I, I’m excited to come in and do that, because like, it means I’m getting closer to doing something that I want to do, and I was just like, oh my gosh, like, my mind was just like, Blew up.

 It is cause I did it’s almost good. Oh, I was like, cause I just didn’t, I like, all I did was reflected back or not reflected, right. But like high, accurate empathy, moving along into like the you statements and the double sided reflections. It’s it. And I think I love listening to you talk about it because it just goes back to that reset button of some of the basics and motivational interviewing.

You’re helping the person walk through their own thought process and. I know that at face value, people think, well, what am I supposed to do as the professional? Like you’re just paying me to help them work through their own thought process that they already have. Like that doesn’t seem legit, but when they walk away and their brain is clearer and cleaner about their target behavior and what their values are, that’s different than when they came into the session in the first place.

That’s an intervention. They’re clear about who they are, they’re clear about their own internal struggle, and they’re getting more clear about what their ultimate destination is, and they, and which helps their brain start to think of a plan of how they’re going to get there, and you still haven’t interjected yourself into the equation yet.

That’s mastery. I mean, that’s not easy to do. That takes so much self discipline. And like, there was multiple times where I was like, it would be so easy to intervene, right. And then turn myself into the equation. But like, that’s not helpful. Cause it’s, I forget who says it, but there’s the, it’s either the Rogers paradox or another one.

Right. But people only listen to what they have to say.  And so just like really clinging onto that with like motivational interviewing, but like, I often have to remind myself, it’s like, there has to be.  Ambivalence because like, right, if there’s no ambivalence, then you can’t use, am I, because you’re not sorting anything, but I think, right, where, like, that conversation comes in is.

People are like, well, when do I use it? Right? Like, oh, you can use it in this or this and this, but like they often might forget like I have to use it when I hear ambivalence because if somebody’s mind is already decided, like I could see how you could potentially try to rock the boat. Right. What we were talking about to see if we can pivot.

 But if they’re like very set in that, then it’s back to high accurate empathy. So really identifying where they’re at in that process.  Super neat, super helpful, super effective. It’s just because I think it, it, Provides a segue into any modality that you need to use, which is like such a cool part.

That’s what I appreciate too, those dots you connect because it’s, I like looking at motivation in conjunction with other evidence based practices. And I just think from what you’ve just articulated, if the person is not defensive, if they’re not dug in. If they have some internal struggle going on, and now, like what you just said, when you hear things like, well, I do want to be successful, or you hear the change talk start to come through your brain starts to prep itself for how could we catalyze this and move to a more positive outcome, which means we need to listen, then what other skills or strategies do I know could be effective if I have a brain that’s not arguing or on the defensive, you know, There’s other skills in Taiwan.

You know, maybe we start to do some dbt or some cbt or, you know, there’s other interventions then that can help them be successful. Now that their mouth and their brain is going, I want to be successful. I want to move forward. You know, I wish some of this would go away. I want to be, you know, I want to pass my classes.

I want to be able to get on my house. I want to be able to get my own place. Like as soon as you hear change talk. The hardest part though, when we hear change talk is our writing reflex just jumps every time. Like when they’re hyper defensive and aggressive towards us, our writing reflex jumps when we see them struggling in their ambivalence, our writing reflex jumps, cause we want to save them.

Then when they give us change talk, it’s like, Oh my gosh, let’s work on this. I’ve got some things you can do. Then our writing reflex jumps again. So it’s just, it’s so hard to keep the ratings on the writing reflex because almost at every corner, our fix it brain wants to jump in and help people. Yeah, and I, well, I mean, like, thinking about counselors in general, like mental health counselors, therapists, like, I mean, we’re gonna see little bits of improvement, right, over a long period of time, but at the very end of the day, when they go home, we’re never really gonna see, like, what kind of production they get outside of what we do in session, right?

Like, we can talk about what that looks like and how it happened,  but once they complete therapy and they go home, like, I don’t know what that looks like. And so, you Right. We want that instant gratification of like, Oh my God, I’ve helped you so much. Like, I just want to see you succeed. And, and then it’s like our writing reflex kicks in and now we’re like off the path, you know, cause maybe they had a bad week and now they’re back a couple steps and then you’ve got to start back over.

But like our brains just want to jump to the end. Cause it’s like, I’ve seen you where you could have been where you were like, let’s just get back there. It’s super easy. And they’re like, no, but I’m stuck right here. That’s it. And I think it’s so hard because. I think where my frustration when I get so lean so heavily into motivational interviewing is because I watched so many professionals do the thing that undoes the work.

So it’s like, you know, we’ll just try this. You know, why don’t we just go talk to your teacher together? Why don’t we go do this? Like, let’s just do this. And they’re like, no, I don’t want to. It’s like, come on, let’s just, it’s like, and then they turn around and blame the client. Because they don’t know how to use communication to engage the brain and behavior more effectively.

And that’s where I just get my own righty reflex gets triggered. That’s like, wow, it’s just so often it’s at the professional doesn’t have the mindfulness and the strategy and the skill set to use language effectively to engage this human brain more effectively. That’s, that’s where my obsession always grows in terms of just professional accountability.

If we know we have a technology. And the data shows how effective it is. And then we continue to blame the client or the patient. For the outcomes. It’s like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. That’s what my writing reflects. Just like, Hey, it’s out there. We may not know it. We may not understand it. We may not have been trained in it.

That’s totally fine. But that’s not because of the client. Listen, literally, if we walk through the metrics of the language, it is predictable and probable that the client or the patient is going to say these things because of what you just said. Not because that is the holy where their brain is at. It’s because how you’re shaping language.

And to me, the potency of that is just Fascinating. Well, and it’s insane because like, we all want to be the authors of our own story, right? Like we love being the center of attention, like every person, I believe that every person wants that. And so, right. Like when the client’s like, well, I don’t want to do that.

Right. There’s your resistance talk. But instead of identifying that we go right into, well, like it’s super easy, like I’d be there right with you. Like we’d be able to do this together.  No, no, no. Like it’ll be okay. Right. And so like. We want to help. We’re putting our needs in front of theirs, right?

Becoming the center of the attention rather than focusing back on them and shifting. And so that’s really hard, especially when we have a lot of other things in life that we don’t get the attention from, like loved ones, family, right? And so, yeah, it takes a lot of self awareness to be able to continually stay in that, like, MI zone and then pivot into different modalities.

And then when you identify, oh, there’s resistance or something has come up, right? Bounce back through, because that’s. Or back to am I just, because that is, that’s the communication and like, right, it’s, it’s like a salsa, it’s like one step at a time. You’re calling back and forth, back and forth and like, that’s really hard to do and juggle.

 But I think if we learn that super well, then we can have a better way of identifying, right, like that language, we can use better language to like, navigate people’s problems and help them identify what’s going on in their life and how they wanna fix it, rather than being like, this is how I, I think you should fix it.

Exactly. Well, and I think when you, what you’d said earlier, and you connect that, it makes so much sense when we look at our own narratives and we want to be the heroes in our own stories. And if we’re not getting that in our social lives or our family lives as much as a, as a professional, as the clinician, then you do want to get credit for being a good therapist.

Oh, you know, my, my clients respect me. They like me. They lean on me. They rely on me. I’ve helped so many of them. Yeah. When our identity becomes the helper and, you know, if they would just listen to me and, you know, I’ve helped so many people, if that becomes your primary narrative, then you have to help people to have some sense of.

Positive self worth is, you know, I’m, I’m that confidence or,  in our profession and our profession, our confidence is the more experts we are, the more we know, the more initials we have after our name, the more credibility we have in behavioral health and healthcare. So it’s so interesting that you’re surrendering your whole.

Expertise and personhood from an educational perspective and even an experiential perspective and you’re starting with the other person’s narrative first and then covering. I love what you said when she said, I want to be successful. You know, you’re like, I can’t believe she just said that, you know, because it’s not where the conversation started.

It’s like that narrative is what you’re working with is the That person centered narrative, and then you start to evoke or elicit. What would that look like from you? What supports would you need? What would your first step be? You know, then it’s just like, now you’ve got this forward momentum towards the narrative as they write it towards her version of what success would look like for her.

 And that’s just like, wow, that’s just, you just, you’re just, you’re, you’re kind of flipping the game a little bit there. And I, that’s my, I think where am I such a fascinating construct to work with. Well, and like, when we have conversations with people, you notice that, like, right, we go off of the last thing that we just said, but notice that you tied it back to an earlier piece in the conversation to kind of restart, like, what, like, the main purpose of that conversation was.

So, like, when she was talking, I think at one point we started talking about the movie Trolls, right? And I don’t know how we got that far, but then I was able to kind of correct a little bit about Like, it’s so important to you that, like, you take time to enjoy things that you want, so that way you can be successful, instead of, like, parroting her trying to find that, like, way of getting her back up on that balance beam, and then she did it, right, and then she kind of stayed with that,  but being able to identify, like, Well, not identify, but trust ourselves and like, okay, like just because they are right here in this conversation, like, maybe I can go back a few steps and try to get them to get back on this right and take that path of like slowing down and then trying to like, like recourse.

The conversation rather than just being like, all right, where are we going? Every time they finish a sentence, because like, that’s not our job. Our job is to help them figure out whatever they’re struggling on. Like, they can talk about things they like, but like, ultimately, like, you just want to be successful and keep tying that back.

And like, their brain will be like, it’s so important that they just keep bringing it back up. And they’re like, I do want to be successful. Like, this is how I could do that. Or this is how I could do that. Well, that’s it. You know, this is where that movement from empathy moves into focus. Because if, if you keep focusing on the top of the mountain or the ultimate destination, that pinnacle, the peak, it keeps saying, yeah, you’re, you’re stuck in the woods over here.

Or yeah, you tripped over that rock or yeah, you’re, you’re kind of wandering through this woods over here. We try to fix all those situations and then people are with us forever. Or they just, you know, it feels like they never making progress, but in my brain, when you are so focused, it’s always no matter what the content is, it’s that reorientation to the top of the mountain and you just want to be successful.

And I think that’s such a great reset button for my practitioners, because even when you start getting caught in the content, you can take a couple of deep breaths, get your brain pulled out of the content and go. You know what? And you just want to be successful, or you’re just trying to find your way through this, or you just want to find a resolution, all this, you just wish things were better finding change.

Talk is not that hard. If you can go to that level of just going, you know what? People just are tired of being stuck and they they’re struggling in their own life. They wish it was better. And as soon as you start to focus on that, you’re focusing on change talk. And that allows you that. Way up to the top of the mountain, so I firmly believe that, like, we can’t really help people by just addressing their problems, right?

Like, that’s not helpful. Like, we need to address, like, self esteem, self confidence, self efficacy, right? And like, by reinforcing all of those, like, we build a better foundation. Like, we lay a foundation. A lot more rebarb and concrete and like these like really good solid structures that when they leave they can apply that elsewhere rather than being like Like, all right.

This is how you have like a single conversation with somebody to like You know, have a better outcome or like address this. And like, those are important pieces, but without that self, right, without them having that top of the mountain, they’re never going to know what they want to do. That’s it, you know, and found that’s, that’s why I’ve added more of the brain science into it is because I think that that rebar and that scaffolding and the concrete is you want to help them build that elevator or the pathway to their success or to their executive function where the brain is just Functioning more effectively instead of them always listening to the expert, telling them how to live their life because they just, it just, that just research shows that doesn’t have a lot of sustainability to it.

No matter who the expert is, there just doesn’t have as much sustainability is when the person starts to define it for themselves and develops a thought process or a pathway in their brain. That becomes one that they travel on readily and the more readily they travel on that thought process, which is more success based or solution focused in a motivation based approach.

That’s where you’re building that sense of self efficacy. That’s where, as they start to build that infrastructure, there’s less dependency because they’re building a problem solving scaffolding inside of their own brain. And that problem solving scaffolding isn’t based in trauma. It’s based in solution and values.

And that’s just, that is just where the game starts to change significantly. Yeah. And I think when you bring it back to that brain science, that’s the part that like, I remember when we were in class, right? You’re like, you have the neural pathways and the more often those neural pathways will one or like first off created, but then like continually reinforced.

So that Miley and chief that protects it, the more you use it. That highway builds, it just goes faster and faster. So now when you have that first thought, it immediately goes to executive functioning.  And so as you were talking and like bringing up all these great points, I’m just like, that’s why I kept clicking.

Cause I was like, we’re building these paths, like these super highways in their brain, like maybe it’s just like a dirt path and then it’s like a road and then now it’s a freeway and now it’s like a super freeway and now it’s like a bullet train, right? Like we’ve upgraded it every time. And it’s just like, Oh my gosh.

Like. Your brain needs to learn how to navigate these on its own. And if people are always stepping in and doing it for you or challenging you, right, you’re going to be a little bit more in the back of your mind rather than up in executive functioning. So it’s like when we reinforce self, we reinforce the ability to make your own decisions.

Well, it’s interesting, Falin, when you say that, cause I just, I have all these thoughts that are clicking in because I’m, I’m studying and reading the latest on, well, The latest for me on brain science that a lot of, a lot of,  narratives haven’t caught up with, it’s kind of the latest research on brain science.

And, and what this neuroscientist is saying,  is that it’s, it’s less about the compartmentalized brain that that’s maybe that it’s not, she’s not saying maybe that’s not completely accurate.  What it really is, is,  how the brain manages,  energy through survival. Or,  connection and that that’s from the very first organism that they could study that just was just basically a gut on a stick.

And then as, as things evolved, what she’s talking about, when you’re talking about that is it’s, it’s also the more that they focus on success, there’s less expenditure of fear, energy, and, and protective mode. Protective mode requires a certain amount of it. It saves kinetic energy when people go into the freeze mode, but it burns all sorts of other energies in the brain and the brain has to modulate energy consumption,  and how the whole body functions.

And so what it is is when there’s less threat. There can be more focus on evolution or successful,  processing forward. So even if it’s not the compartments of the brain as much, the basic construct holds true as far as if we’re not in survival mode, we can thrive more and the brain will release, let the body release and move into more thriving mode.

So that whole thing about high empathy that can kind of decompress that stress part of the brain.  And allow the function to, to work more towards evolution without this fear of needing to retract all the time.  That’s how you set up a more growthful process. So it’s fascinating to combine kind of the psychological features that, you know, we were raised with in the, in the counseling field with some of the, the hard brain science side of it is like, wow, I can see these parallels starting to come together in the way that I’m looking at this as well.

So it was just fascinating to me. Well, and I think when you offer that, like, right when they’re. A little bit further along and they’re talking about action and change and you can help build on that like being able to provide like psychoeducation on like what’s happening in the brain and how that works alongside like the biological responses.

It’s so reassuring for them to see that. And I’m like, Oh my gosh, like I didn’t realize they had a name for it or like that makes so much sense, right? And like you see it connect to them and it’s like Like, right, language, we’re giving them the knowledge that we have learned, but in a way that’s super helpful and that they can walk away going like, I understand what’s happening.

It almost kind of weaponizes it in a way of like, here’s my shield, here’s my sword, right? Like, there’s the top of the tower, like, how do I want to get through, like, this dragon,  kind of thinking about that snow white,  and I find that just so amazing because it’s like, you’re just giving them all the tools that they need to.

Without inserting yourself in the equation and just giving them information and building that self. It’s just such a, I, I love this reframe of it because it, to me, I think then it gets into the heart of why we do the work that we do. It’s not about ourselves. And this is what you were talking about is it’s hard because our narratives tend to be more self centered, you know, even as professionals, you know, in the, you know, when do we get attention?

You know, nobody gives me attention in my narrative,  or the attention that I want in my narrative. The beauty in MI is the individuals that are identified as needing help. They get the attention they need from their narrative and it allows them to develop into the person as they define themselves in the most efficient and effective way that we know of.

As of right now. So this has been awesome. I’m so glad you said yes, you join and, and jump on the call with me. This is, this is great. Yeah. Thank you. I,  I do appreciate it. I think as we kind of got going, I got a little bit more comfortable, right? It’s just like, Oh, it’s just easy. I got this totally understandable.

So I definitely, everybody with me, and if you ever want to jump on it, just, this is my favorite part is I love talking. Am I, I don’t like to just listen to myself talk about it.  It’s all these interesting takes and experiences that you all have that,  you know, any questions you have, any insights that you have.

 This is a perfect example of if you want to jump on and have a conversation with, with john or me or Danielle or the three of us, whatever,  just continue to reach out. I appreciate you listening.  Everybody take care. Thanks again, Falin for coming on. Of course. Thanks for having me. Thank you for listening to the communication solution podcast with Casey Jackson and John Gilbert.

As always, this podcast is about empowering you on your journey to change the world. So if you have questions, suggestions, or ideas, send them our way at Casey@IFIOC.Com, that’s  Casey@IFIOC.com dot com for more information or to schedule training, visit IFIOC.com until our next communication solution podcast, keep changing the world.