Welcome to today’s episode of The Communication Solution podcast with Casey Jackson, John Gilbert and Danielle Cantin. We love talking about Motivational Interviewing, and about improving outcomes for individuals, organizations, and the communities that they serve. This episode offers an insightful and heartfelt exploration of the intricacies of helping others. The podcast stands as a testament to the power of empathy, strategic guidance, and the importance of respecting individual autonomy in the journey of helping professions. It invites listeners to consider their own motives and approaches in offering support, whether professionally or personally, emphasizing the profound impact genuine understanding can have on both the helper and those they assist.

• Understanding the Motive to Help: The hosts discuss what drives them to be in helping positions, delving into personal motivations and the impact they hope to make.
  
• Casey’s Reflection on Empathy: Casey shares a profound personal quote from his teenage years, emphasizing the importance of making people feel heard, seen, and understood.
  
• John’s Perspective on Alleviating Suffering: John talks about his motivation to help others, particularly driven by his sensitivity to pain and suffering.
  
• Experiences in the Prison System: Casey shares his experiences working in prisons, highlighting the power of being present and making inmates feel heard and understood.
  
• Journey vs. Destination: The conversation explores the balance between enjoying the journey of helping others and focusing on the desired outcomes.
  
• Ethical Influence in Motivational Interviewing: They discuss the ethics of influencing people in motivational interviewing, emphasizing the need to maintain autonomy and provide informed choices.
  
• Compliance vs. Autonomy: The hosts tackle the complex issue of compliance in helping professions, contrasting it with the concept of respecting individual autonomy.
  
• Guiding with Empathy: Casey and John explore how guiding someone in motivational interviewing involves balancing empathy with strategic direction.
  
• Personal Growth Through Helping: They reflect on how their own journeys in helping others have led to personal growth and a deeper understanding of human behavior.
  
• Intrigue in Individual Stories: Casey expresses his fascination with individual narratives and the unique reasons people seek help or guidance.
  

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Thank you for listening to the communication solution. This podcast is all about you. If you have questions, thoughts, topic suggestions, or ideas, please send them our way at casey@ifioc.com. For more resources, feel free to check out ifioc.com. 

Hello, and welcome to the communication solution podcast with Casey Jackson and John Gilbert. I’m your host, Danielle Canton here at the Institute for Individual and Organizational Change, otherwise known as IFIOC. We love to talk about communication. We love to talk about solutions, and we love to talk about providing measurable results for individuals, organizations, and the communities they serve.

Welcome. To the communication solution that will change your world. Hello, everyone. Welcome back. We are the communication solution here to hopefully entertain and grow your brain and all the sorts of good things that you’re tuning in for. If it’s the first time,  listening, you got Casey Jackson here, our director that I will be.

Interviewing Casey, this is John, one of his worker bees out in the world training on AI and other such things. And so we’re here today to talk about a topic that. And we can veer in all sorts of directions here, Casey, but it’s just something I’ve been thinking about from a conversation we were having recently.

And what are we trying to do when we’re trying to be in a helping position? Why does it matter to help people so much? Not just from a,  sense of that’s what you ought to do, should do, you’re supposed to do, but what is underlying our motives in helping Positions and why not go to banking as much? And some people might say, well, you could make more of an impact if you become a banker and become a philanthropist, then being a nonprofit, you know, director and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

There’s lots of rabbit holes. We can go down, but the whole idea is what’s the motivation behind what we behind trying to help people use? Am I all this stuff? So I’m kind of wondering for you, what would you say when you start to peel back those layers? What are you trying to do in helping people help people?

You know, what struck me when you were talking, I can’t even believe this popped in my brain, but it was a, it was a quote that I’d read when I was in high school and, and the fact that I can even remember parts of it is shocking to me, but it was so profound for me at that age with, you know, depression or thing, you know, just teenage angst, basically.

And the quote was, there is no greater burden in this world than to think that no one cares or understands. Hmm.  And I just thought that for me was partially, you know, when I understood what, not that I could have a living trying to help other people, that was a catalyzing moment from that quote. I had that quote written down,  when I was reading all this book of quotes and that one just was like, Whoa, like what a burden.

I felt that before, you know, and then as, you know, just as I. And as an adolescent of seeing other people experience that. And then as I got older, seeing people experience that, like to think that nobody cares or understands, like, is there any greater burden in the world? And,  and there’s another one about how, you know, do you just want to operate in this world, basically like a bowl full of marbles, you know, where we touch, but we don’t interface.

And that was a really interesting concept to me too. And for me, that was the foundation of just going. I don’t know if I’ll be good at this profession, but what I do know is I want people to feel heard and seen and understood. And if I release some burden on another person, if somebody would have done that for me or people that did do that for me, and that’s a way that I could actually pay my mortgage or, you know, pay rent.

Like, why wouldn’t you do that? Like that was. For me, what it’s always been about. And I think, you know, we talk about authenticity and genuineness, but I’ve never lost that, like in my heart and in my, that pit inside of me and my solar plexus is just like, I, something resonates and harmonizes when I’m able to do that for another person.

 You know, whether it’s mentally, emotionally, spiritually, whatever it is, you know, and I think for you physically and spiritually and mentally and emotionally. When you can do that for other people, there’s just, I love, you know, there’s a there there,  with that. And so that’s, that’s what I’d launch it off from when you ask that it just coincided me that I just, I just, I want people to feel heard and seen and understood.

So interesting because it’s, it’s, it’s a way of you’re, you’re entering this compassionate way of being with people for the very intrinsic sake of that sort of. Outcome. And it’s so interesting that we can both be wanting to help people, but have different salient outcomes that we especially resonate with, such as for you heard, seen, understood that sense.

Yes, and and to bring something in that I’m curious about from your perspective, that is a motivated for me pain and suffering. And for whatever reason, it’s my own probably mental blocks that Rumi would point to and all sorts of things that,  your resonance with that heard and understood piece is so core to so much.

And yet, for me, I’ve, I’ve had to more emotionally resonate, learn how to resonate with that and that it’s. Just the pain that people go through and working at a vet clinic like I did and seeing people in my personal life go through difficult things and have such good hearts, but just really break down crying or things like this that just it’s heartbreaking.

It’s I can get emotional. It’s so heartbreaking to and then start to think about all the people going through all the things it starts to become this bigger. Who, you know, and, and it’s very motivating for me to alleviate some of those things, but it’s so interesting that the way in might be similar, but I’m that initial part.

That’s probably, I don’t know, it’s, it’s important to the way in that you found was being heard, seen and understood. So I’m wondering. As you’ve gone into seeing and hearing people, especially when you were in the prisons and some of these other things, what has that taught you? What has that been like to go in to hear and see and understand people’s perspectives, whether you agree with them or not, and what has it, you know, garnered for you?

 What has it taught you about your own motives to help people? I’m just curious. It’s interesting because what I think about is I think getting the social work degree, you know, I wanted to get the psychology degree because I genuinely wanted therapy is all I wanted to do. I just wanted to help people.

That was that was it. And then just because I was, you know,  as I was exposed to more than it was the reality that getting a master’s in social work is going to give me a different level on a macro level. Like, I want to understand systems like that was fascinating to me as well to. But to me, it was just, I want people to feel heard and seen and understood.

I think what, what pulled it together for me. And again, it’s weird that these weird stories are coming to my brain, but, and this was emotional for me is I remember the starfish story and I’d never heard it before, and just to say it for people that have never heard it before, and it may not translate for everyone, but.

You know, there’s a young man walking along the beach and all these starfish have been washed up on the beach and, and,  and so he starts picking up the starfish and trying to throw him back in the ocean as they’re kind of drying out and dying in the sun. And, and then, you know, an old gentleman comes along and says, you know.

There’s, you know, hundreds, thousands of starfish here. You’re not going to be able to save all of them. You’re wasting your time, you know? And he looks at the one starfish in his hand. He says to this one, it matters and throws it into the ocean. And I think that is kind of the answer to your question around that for me is, you know, from all the places that I’ve worked in, I can get the imposter phenomenon when I started working in the prison system,  you know, both state level was probably more, more intense and overwhelming for me than the federal level,  as a therapist.

But. What translated away from the imposter phenomenon, or when I would could leave the imposter phenomenon, like who am I to help this person with their life? Like, I can’t relate. I don’t know them, but to this one, it matters. So for me to be fully present and not try to fix someone and not think I’m the psychologist or I’m the therapist, or I need to dig into their issues.

And I went through streaks of doing that. But the most profound moments that I think were probably the most Yeah. Impactful and that’s what clients had shared with me is the fact that they felt that they weren’t being judged and they could get some of their thoughts out of their own head. And, and just, and just be with their own thought process and another human being with them, with them in that moment, who wasn’t trying to fix them.

That was just that capacity to be present. And that was pre motivational interviewing, even that goes back to what we’re just talking about is I just knew that there was, there was potential health and healing in people feeling heard and seen and understood and not judged. And that was something that. I could do, and I think there’s part of me that was voyeuristic about it, that somebody, the level of intimacy of someone being able to open up and share the deepest, darkest parts of their life with me, that was fascinated.

That’s a whole different level of intimacy, and that was very intriguing to me, and then did not have to manipulate it. And just see what would, what would be born from that internal truth for that person. I was obsessive to me. I love, I’ve never, I mean, I’ve been in the field for over 30 years and 35 years now.

And I, I’m just never bored. And that’s what I knew when I went into this field. I have never, ever, ever been bored. I’ve been exhausted. I’ve wanted to quit. I’ve been emotional. I’ve been all sorts of things, but I have never, ever been bored going to work ever because it’s fascinates me to be able to be present that way with another human being.

Everything is an adventure. Like every, it’s a new, it’s a new trip or it’s a new travel destination. Every time that I get to put myself to the side and step into someone else’s reality. And that’s, that’s obsessive for me. Yeah. Related to that. So interesting is what I’d be curious also about for you. And then just a little qualification is that balance between empathy and direction that, you know, is talked about in MI that we’ve trained on that Moyers, you know, you can give her a single mom example if you want for a taxpayer,  all that stuff.

It’s that there’s a balance here with being with. And helping support towards, and it’s so interesting to hear the interest level that you have in the journey. Cause what was going through my mind is journey versus destination, or how do you mix the journey and the destination? And also in another podcast, we talked about, well, based off of your professional training or who’s funding insurance or cash pay.

 Things go into our sense of perceived sense of pressure and time and efficiency or real, depending on how we are and depending on what system we want to perpetuate. But I say all that to bring in what your sense of okay, there’s the journey that intrigued you for your motivation. Then there’s, you know, like my lean of how I got in the outcome, the destination, the impact alleviate suffering and can’t you see you’re going to alleviate this.

Jeez, come on. And then getting more compassionate about that over time. Whereas you’re like, Oh, this journey. Wow. Oh yeah. And there are these things that we can find along the way. Cool. Like the, the, the essence of my tone there has a different feel to it from different trainings, different backgrounds. So how did you then come around to like, Yeah, I want to be strategic, but not lose the melody of the song and be still highlighting strategy.

And how do you, how do you kind of come to that direction and, and impact thinking with that journey thinking? I, I know my evolution was. Especially in choosing to work with youth and young adults originally, I was more of a, an ascriber to reality therapy, you know, which is meet the reality where their reality is at.

And then slowly and gently bring them to a healthier reality, which is very egocentric in hindsight. Now I think of it as being more egocentric because a healthier reality is a healthy reality as I define it, which gets into patriarchy and colonialism. And now that I really have a deeper understanding of things, it’s whatever the health professional thinks is healthy.

And that is danger. I mean, now in hindsight, it’s like, Whoa, that is very interesting, especially when we’ve talked about autonomy and sovereignty and other things. You know, when we talk from that perspective, what that journey was from more of a psychotherapy perspective is the more they talk, the more problems I can see and the more identify those problems.

And then I try to fix those problems because that was my version of where I was raised with psychotherapy. The evolution was fascinating to me is. When I started shifting into motivational, everything was exposed to it more and then hearing different voices about the guiding and directing. So how do we do that?

Effectively? It’s why I was so, you know, when I started creating focus mountain was, well, if they’re clear what they want, what their values are, I can see that their biggest internal conflict is their values and their behaviors are not aligning. And even in that part of my evolution, then I’m like, I’m trying to help guide them to how to do that better.

Okay. So I’m still have that expert perspective on it. And I know that that still is. Some people believe in that and invest in that and motivational interviewing, even, you know, there’s, there’s a reason we’re there and there’s a reason we’re getting paid and we’re got to get into this direction.  The part of it that I think is so profound and this is where the guiding comes in is there’s the journey part of it.

And, and at this stage of my career, this stage of my life, what I, what I really defer even further to is they get to choose if they just, if they. Want to give their resources to me because they enjoy my personhood when they’re on their journey of being feeling heard and seen and understood, but they’re not craving a destination, but they’re willing to give resources to me because they want that experience.

I don’t get it to find that an insurance company can define that. But if people feel health and healing and growth, because somebody lays hands on them and massages them, you know, whether there’s no true measurable outcome, which we know there is, but that’s still the right to do that. That’s a human being making a decision with how they want to allocate their own human resource,  or financial resource or whatever resource they have the ethical.

And I think this is ethical application that you and I can get into. At depth is the guiding, and this is the story from Terry Morris, which I know I’ve told before to people, but I remember this conference. It was a gathering of mentees motivation trainers in San Diego. And there was a panel of the who’s who of am I there’s 5 or 6 people on this panel.

And Dr Teresa Morris was 1 of them and.  And it was this, you know, balance between where does empathy and where does direction at the time before guiding where does direction fit in motivational interviewing and everybody was leaning heavily and it was actually, I don’t know if it’s ironic, but it was, I think there was four or five males and, and, and one female,  on the panel and these men, brilliant men are just leaning into, you know, research is showing.

We can lean heavier into empathy because we went through, I remember kind of,  industry wise, we were so heavy into managed care, managed mental health, managed, you know, behavioral health, which means really how you’re spending your dollars very tightly. And now what they’re saying is, Hey, the research is showing high, accurate empathy is going to give you better outcomes.

So people are just like, and the whole crowd is just like, yes, back to empathy, back to empathy, back to empathy. And everybody’s like in it. You know, and, and Terry,  kind of almost like not sheepishly raises her hand and says, you know what, I, I love this conversation, but if nobody else is going to speak about direction, I’m going to speak about direction.

And, and she said, for me, everything has to pass the waitress test, you know, and I’d never heard this before. And, um. So the reason why I believe in direction and,  you know, and today’s version of kind of guiding so much is that the waitress test for me is that there’s a single mom out there that has just worked two shifts in a row.

So she’s just putting 16 hours, she hasn’t seen her kids in two days and after working 16 hours on her feet as a waitress job, I am taking part of her paycheck because most of the people in this arena.  In this room, in this, in this training room, most of you get some form of public dollars. If you work in the U.

S. you either work for a university or you work for a private nonprofit. Like some of you are getting, you know, the majority of us are getting some form of taxpayer dollars in grants or funding. So I literally have just taken part of her paycheck after 16 hours of her being on her feet and not seeing her children.

She is going to be very resentful. If all I’m doing is talking to this person about how their week was. Because she’d like somebody to talk to her about how her week is, and we’ve taken her money now to give to me to talk to this person. She’s going to want to see an outcome from that. And to me, that was and the room just kind of went silent.

 Because there’s this reality of why are we interfacing with this human being? What are we taking from them? What are they giving us? Will by choice or not? And what outcome are we expecting from that? That’s not just, you know, a passerby saying hi or somebody sitting on a plane next to you or a bus next to you or in a coffee shop with you.

What is this interaction happening? That’s helping you get that one step closer towards your ultimate goal or destination. And that’s why when you’re bringing up the guiding or the journey piece of it, how you can be so present, but in motivational interviewing, what guiding is, is where’s this person’s ultimate destination and what are we evoking or eliciting from their thoughts or their ideas that will move them along that path.

And if they’re stuck and they look to us, we don’t need to be the expert. But we can provide information or education or insights that help them get clearer or stronger or more invested on this path as they see their destination more clearly. And that is guiding that’s beyond just kind of wandering around the forest and picking flowers and laying out in the sun and, and, you know, having lunch while we sit on a stump.

I mean, that’s just there’s enjoyment to that. But is that we should collect money for,  or get compensated for? And I think that’s that that that really complex or difficult balance. Yeah, it brings to my many, many things. And so feel free to riff off of any. Any of these for your own sense of what are we trying to accomplish and what are we trying to do and how does M I relate to that?

And for those that are, you know, probably listening to this, a sense of what they can, you know, hone in on for themselves as they’re in that moment of how to ethically influence people you brought in ethics, right? And so a few things that came to mind. One is like, what’s our intention? And we talk about that with motivational interviewing competency assessment, the mica, these 5 motivational interviewing intentions.

And you have kind of a way you talk about that.  That can be helpful if you want to go. And mentioned that you might have mentioned that in other places, but that was 1 thing that went through of the whole captainship and all that stuff that we’ve amended to be more cross cultural. But that was 1 thing that went through is like, okay, what’s our intention?

And then what’s our impact, which is what I was kind of talking about before and how would we know? Well, sometimes we can anecdotally go for it. Like you said, with a massage or try to take some more specific measures like I do in my world with labs or, or other, other things that are being noticed. So what’s our intention?

What’s our impact? Intended or not, be it with positive intent, the road to hell being paved with good intentions,  and race, all sorts of LGBTQ stuff that gets in involved with this too, but and then so our intention, our impact, and then who’s responsible or where’s the responsibility. And that’s really interesting to think with the example you just gave of, well, we are responsible to not just have feel good conversations, particularly when it’s taxpayer money versus maybe direct pay.

So those were some things that went through to either talk about the mica and those intense intentions. The other related to that with. What you dreamed up with the Micah is what William Miller talked about with guiding and the whole,  a good guide on a vacation.  And that whole checking in with you as you have a guide on your vacation,  concept that you taught me years ago that you can probably remember much better than me, but that came through too, to just give a visual to some of this as well, that.

May or may not be helpful. So then there were about 3 other things I could say, but I’ve already been talking enough. So,  but there are more more things to dive into from what you said, but I’m just wondering kind of your, your thoughts or response on all that for, for making this more dimensional. So just as brief of context as I can to answer this is every single day, I’m becoming more profoundly aware of my whiteness, my privilege, my male, like, I’m just so profoundly aware of that.

And I, and, and that influence intentionally or unintentionally that that has, that’s why. You know, conversations you and I have had around what is the nature of sovereignty or autonomy in the deepest sense, in the deepest form. So when I think about this, and we’re talking about a journey, if that’s my mindset going in, it’s different than I think of somebody trying to climb a rock wall.

So whether it’s an indoor rock wall or, you know, out in the world climbing a rock wall. I can come in as a, as a phenomenal free climber and show people exactly what they need to do to have it happen. There’s nothing wrong with that.  I can just say those shoes are not going to work. You need to buy these shoes.

I can say you’re going to need to buy these gloves. What I’m getting to now at this stage in my life of trying to be as non intrusive into someone else’s journey, but be as. Helpful as possible is when you look at the clothes you’re wearing, where do you ultimately want to go? Like, what, what do you want to get out of it?

You just want a free climb. Do you want to get to the top and do you know why you want to get to the top? And there’s so many right ways to do that, which goes back to one of the very first things that just drew me into Motivational is that whole concept of being more than one right way then what it can come down to is I’m just going to wear these clothes.

This is what I want to wear. This is what makes me feel comfortable. And it’s like, then it comes into, it’s not ethical. It or the ethical influence of it could be. You have every right to wear those kinds of shoes. It is going to be more difficult. And there’s a reason why you’re attached to those shoes.

You could slip significantly more, but you have the right to do that.  And they’re like, I don’t care if I slip more, they’re my favorite shoes. Then it’s like, they have the right to do that. Every place they can put their hand, you’ve got two or three places you can put your hand. One is going to cause significantly more strain on your shoulder.

This one, if you put your hand over here, it’s going to cause more strain on your muscle. Like you, you get to choose that. And ultimately there’s so many right ways. There can be somebody that’s just kind of screaming in there the whole time. Move it, move it, move it. Come on. Don’t slow down. You got this, you got this, you got this, you got this, you got this.

There’s just so many right ways to do it. But what I think comes down to is that individual gets to choose. With informed choice, and this is my obsession around informed choice, is if they know the array of,  clothing and accessories they could have access to, if they have the true understanding of all the ways that people could guide them to the top, and if they’re really clear about why they want to get up there and the experience they want to have, it’s their right to choose however that experience comes out.

So, if they want to do that in a bathrobe and slippers and try to climb a wall, they have every right to do that. That’s not mine to judge. If they want to carry, you know,   coffee French press with them while they’re doing it, they have every right. Everybody’s going to go, you can’t, that’s just bizarre.

What the hell are you doing? Because maybe the only thing that matters to them is when they get up there is they just want to have a cup of coffee and enjoy the view, you know, I’m not going to get out of their hand. I’m not going to help you. If you’re going to carry a French press to the top of this mountain, because you need both hands.

Or if it’s an indoor gym, there’s kids. So you can’t wear your robe because you’ll expose yourself too much to these kids. And then the coffees give a spill everywhere. So there’s a place for compliance for certain kinds of,  other things. Short of compliance, what you’re getting at is that who are we to do it?

If we’re not going to do compliance, if we’re not going to create a line in the sand, which is a big. Separate podcast to talk about where and when and how to create lines in the sand that’s deep. And, but the idea of if you’re not going to do that, what you’re getting at is there’s a place for guiding towards either motivation or what you just did was information because implicit in that.

Is that they want to be successful, they want to play or climb or whatever it is that you are recognizing the motivation they have towards doing whatever the, in this case, the rock wall climbing and you gave a little information in a way that wasn’t trying to coerce or manipulate, but you did give information that helped them get clearer.

And I just want to bring in that that’s. That’s the ethical influence direction in this example that you were doing. That’s really important. That can be very helpful for someone to make more of an informed choice or have an oh, crap or aha, but doing it in a way that’s relevant and appropriately timed that helps them advance their outcome.

As we exactly say in partnering in the mica. And I just want to highlight that that’s the criticalness in which you did that and how you did that. That’s different than my outcomes of them getting to the top are judged. And I need to get them to get to the top without their coffee and without the robe.

So I’m going to implicitly use my awareness of being in a power position versus them. And especially if they have any adverse childhood experiences and traumas and all this stuff and helping professions where. I’m going to use all my awareness to try to get them to the destination that I think is best for them, which it could, could also have things pop out like that, but it’s a very different mindset.

It’s a different intention, and it tends to have a different impact of staying power is what I’m sensing from you of. Not just the autonomy being taken away, but the autonomy being taken away has a different outcome would be my interpretation of what you’re saying. Yeah. And I think this is why it’s not demonizing compliance.

What it is is if somebody, if somebody walks in and they’re. Arm is dislocated from their shoulder and some of their fingers are broken and they come in with a coffee pot. It’s like, well, there is a compliant, there’s a health and safety thing. First of the shoulder needs to be put back in the socket and the fingers need to be sad.

And so there is a compliance. So it doesn’t matter how you feel about it. Like, these are the things you’re complaining about. And I just need to fix these first because they’re so concrete. If it’s disease, if there’s. Broken parts. If there’s, you know, that’s, that’s a different thing. And I think this is where it becomes more gray area in terms of who gets to choose that still, you know?

So compliance isn’t fundamentally bad. I think what I love so much about motivational interviewing, kind of wrapping this up and bringing it back to, you know, some of the original points of this is when the person walks into the climbing gym in a robe with a French press for me personally. It’s the giddy intrigue of who the hell is this person and what’s going through their head right now.

Like, this is so fascinating. Like, I don’t care if they ever climbed, I just can’t wait to get inside their brain because maybe they just wandered in and thought it was their friend. So it’s like, I just want to find out what brought them in here. And what is their narrative and what’s the outcome of why they walked through that door?

What, what outcome were they hoping for? And did they even have an outcome when they walked in that door? That level of intrigue for me just surrenders my personhood and I get to start stepping into their personhood out of the gate and find out, okay, where are they and where do they want to go? And that, that to me is the nature of, you know, deep, high, accurate empathy without judgment.

 Really not having a writing reflex because I don’t feel like I have to get them anywhere. It’s it’s where do they want to go?  And does it involve me or not?  That it just and it’s even when I say it, I just think the amount of stress and pressure that it relieves for me, even as a quote unquote professional.

To not have to be the fixer or the, you know, the healer or the, I don’t have to be that I have to be with them first and they can define what they need. And I either can do that or I can’t do that with them.  And that’s where it’s like that, you know, one Mississippi, two Mississippi, three Mississippi, before you jump into your professional role, it’s just like starting from that place of high, deep, accurate empathy.

Well, yeah, as we’re, we’re wrapping up, it’s, it’s,  there’s so much more to get into with the motives behind helping people and what you’re bringing up with MI and the journey.  There’s just so much around what the quote you said to, which I feel like a whole podcast on just that quote from high school that you were talking about of to have someone care.

And I just wanted to kind of conclude with how the more I’ve. Gone into different angles of, of different books and things and talking with people and experiencing things in the world, there seems to be a there there that we are a catalyst for each other. We are an influence. In each other’s lives now, how much you want to depend on that can be healthy and it can become unhealthy how much you want to see yourself as the purveyor of healing everyone and the bringing power to everyone that can get toxic, that can be healthy, but that what you’re getting at when you’re talking about it is trying to be helpful and caring and compassionate for another human being includes recognizing they are their own person to make their own decisions, And there’s an intriguing thing to get into for a journey with them to have that interest.

Thank you for listening to the communication solution podcast with Casey Jackson and John Gilbert. As always, this podcast is about empowering you on your journey to change the world. So if you have questions. Suggestions or ideas, send them our way at Casey@ IFIOC.Com that’s Casey@ IFIOC.com for more information or to schedule a training, visit IFIOC.Com. Until our next communication solution podcast, keep changing the world.