Welcome to today’s episode of The Communication Solution podcast with Casey Jackson, John Gilbert and Danielle Cantin. We love talking about Motivational Interviewing, and about improving outcomes for individuals, organizations, and the communities that they serve.
The episode focuses on the intersection of communication strategies and the justice system. Judge Mary Logan, with 35 years of experience as an attorney and a judge, shares insights into how communication, specifically motivational interviewing, can be integrated into legal practice. The discussion revolves around balancing compliance-based models with behavior change models, improving outcomes for individuals in the legal system, and innovative approaches in judicial settings.

• Guest Profile – Judge Mary Logan: With 35 years of experience in law, transitioning from a public defender to a judge, Mary Logan discusses her approach to legal practice.
  
• Balancing Legal Models: The conversation explores the balance between compliance-based models and behavior change models in the legal system.
  
• Emphasis on Motivational Interviewing: Logan highlights the importance of motivational interviewing in legal settings to improve communication and outcomes.
  
• Specialized Courts for Targeted Needs: The establishment of veterans and community courts is discussed, showcasing tailored approaches for different groups.
  
• Empathy in Judicial Proceedings: The significance of empathetic and effective communication in court proceedings is emphasized.
  
• Challenges of Time-Limited Interactions: The podcast touches on the difficulty of making a significant impact in the short interactions typical in court settings.
  
• Judge’s Role in Facilitating Change: Logan speaks about the judge’s potential to contribute to behavior change while maintaining legal responsibilities.
  

You don’t want to miss this one! Make sure to rate us or share this podcast. It would mean so much to us!

This has been part one of a two-part podcast. We hope you’ll join us for the second portion. You don’t want to miss this one! Make sure to rate us or share this podcast. It would mean so much to us! Thank you for listening to the communication solution. This podcast is all about you. If you have questions, thoughts, topic suggestions, or ideas, please send them our way at casey@ifioc.com. For more resources, feel free to check out ifioc.com.

Behavior Change in a Compliance-Based System: A Conversation with Judge Mary Logan I

Video link

Welcome to today’s episode of The Communication Solution podcast with Casey Jackson, John Gilbert and Danielle Cantin. We love talking about Motivational Interviewing, and about improving outcomes for individuals, organizations, and the communities that they serve.
The episode focuses on the intersection of communication strategies and the justice system. Judge Mary Logan, with 35 years of experience as an attorney and a judge, shares insights into how communication, specifically motivational interviewing, can be integrated into legal practice. The discussion revolves around balancing compliance-based models with behavior change models, improving outcomes for individuals in the legal system, and innovative approaches in judicial settings.

• Guest Profile – Judge Mary Logan: With 35 years of experience in law, transitioning from a public defender to a judge, Mary Logan discusses her approach to legal practice.
  
• Balancing Legal Models: The conversation explores the balance between compliance-based models and behavior change models in the legal system.
  
• Emphasis on Motivational Interviewing: Logan highlights the importance of motivational interviewing in legal settings to improve communication and outcomes.
  
• Specialized Courts for Targeted Needs: The establishment of veterans and community courts is discussed, showcasing tailored approaches for different groups.
  
• Empathy in Judicial Proceedings: The significance of empathetic and effective communication in court proceedings is emphasized.
  
• Challenges of Time-Limited Interactions: The podcast touches on the difficulty of making a significant impact in the short interactions typical in court settings.
  
• Judge’s Role in Facilitating Change: Logan speaks about the judge’s potential to contribute to behavior change while maintaining legal responsibilities.
  

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This has been part one of a two-part podcast. We hope you’ll join us for the second portion. You don’t want to miss this one! Make sure to rate us or share this podcast. It would mean so much to us! Thank you for listening to the communication solution. This podcast is all about you. If you have questions, thoughts, topic suggestions, or ideas, please send them our way at casey@ifioc.com. For more resources, feel free to check out ifioc.com. 

 Hello and welcome to the communication solution podcast with Casey Jackson and John Gilbert. I’m your host, Danielle Cantin, here at the Institute for Individual and Organizational Change, otherwise known as IFIOC. We love to talk about communication. We love to talk about solutions and we love to talk about providing measurable results for individuals, organizations, and the communities they serve. Welcome to the communication solution that will change your world.

Hello, this Casey Jackson.  I am excited to be here.  I’ve got a judge, Mary Logan,  who is somebody that I’ve known for years.  In spite of how young we are, we’ve known each other for quite a few years.  Actually Mary knew my mother extremely well too. And they were buddies and kind of on the same team and advocating.

And we’re talking today about. It’s kind of that balance between where do you find the kind of that that sweet spot or a corridor between compliance based models and behavior change based models with all the things we talk in my so I asked the judge if she would come on and she was like, absolutely.

I’ll come talk to you. So so Mary, would you just kind of. Introduce yourself and talk a little bit about kind of your role. And then I’ve got at least 5, 000 questions that I want to dive into and kind of let your free reign as well, too. So. All right. Thank you, Casey. I appreciate that. And I really appreciate being on here with you and having this opportunity to talk.

 I, I don’t know where you want me to start with it other than I’ve been a judge since 2009, but actually I’m celebrating as of this very day, my 35th year as an attorney,  which that actually just struck me about two seconds ago. And,  I think I, in my whole concept of where I wanted to go in my legal profession, it was always to change people’s lives.

Of course, when you’re younger, which I am no longer,  it is, you want to change the world, right? What came very clear to me as I matured in my role was that. If I could help one person and then the next person, that I, there’s a possibility that I might be able to actually have that super small ripple effect throughout the world.

So,  you have to humble yourself sometimes in the, in those capacities, but.  In 2009, I ultimately was appointed as a judge,  after having spent,  years in the public defender’s office,  defending folks in the criminal legal system and seeing the really negative or non, non change outcomes with.

It’s simply the retribution model in the criminal legal world. I had, I have a civil background. I did medical malpractice. It was my first,  avenue of practice.  So definitely, you know, narrowing down on one individual family because we dealt with families whose children had been,  severely damaged in the birthing process.

And so, you know, you can only make, it’s just that one instance right there, what is, which is cataclysmic. But being able to make some, some change, even if it’s just applying money, as it were, because up in the civil realm, that’s what you do, but bringing those wrongs to redress and then having the family have at least some support so they could move forward.

So that’s a bit, a bit, a little bit of the flavor of my, my practice and, and my approach in the law.  But in 2009, when the city stood up its own municipal court,  instead of contracting for digital services, which is something that can happen.  We were able to do something different with this court.

And I took that mantle very seriously, having come from practice in the district court since 1997 until 2008. And, and just seeing that, you know, punishing people wasn’t really changing behavior. It was getting the pound of flesh for the moment. But ultimately I would watch as those individuals will just continue to come back into court over and over representing first the father and then representing the grandfather and the father and the children.

And it was just this awful cycle and really wanting to do something to change that. So Mary, the thing that I wanted to just find out is what was going through your head or what, when you a decided to join, because It wasn’t mandatory for you to join the motivation training,  with the, the folks that I was training at that point in time, what, what drew you to that training and then what kept your interest kind of locked into it or, or, you know, captured your, your thoughts around it.

Yeah, I was very excited when I learned about it because I had at that point in time.  We had already started two,  therapeutic,  problem solving courts. One was, actually stood up my veterans court, which is,  veterans enhanced treatment court before I stood up the community court.  And, but for each of them, it, it was with the idea being, you know, how, how best can I communicate with the individuals that are here before me?

Veterans, of course, are a very different population, very used to discipline, very used to order. And then they, their re entry is in the civilian world and we are chaos out here. And so,  I mean, some of their response to that chaos.  And some of it is, you know, PTSD and TBI and some, some other overlays that had happened in the, in the, their military experience and some that they brought to their military experience that was only made worse by their experience.

 Because they’re certainly trained to not reveal any aspect of any mental health issue that they have at all. And they’re, you know, it’s very individualized, suck it up, go forward, you are one of a unit, the unit is the thing, the mission is the thing, all of that messaging. Contrast that with my incredibly chaotic,  community court with individuals that are, you know, struggling with shelter.

 And, and that wasn’t my upbringing. And so that, that my upbringing was that I was placed in a position where I could help people. I was the youngest child, or for whatever reason, that was just what I took on.  I was somebody’s champion. I can remember all the way back to elementary school where I was just very motivated to not allow someone to be victimized.

 So all of that really culminated in then learning about motivational interviewing where there was this ability to reach someone in such a short period of time. And I always only have a short period of time. I’m the last one they talk to, right? They’ve spoken to, they’ve been,  they’ve been out of scene, they’ve been spoken to by police.

And just as a segue, the fact that there were officers that were going through motivational interviewing, I think at the same time. That was amazing to me that that, you know, that you could reach to them and that they would, and I’ve known many of your instruction videos have we’ve watched as police officers unfold this scene that is, it starts out again with chaos and then does not end with anybody getting harmed, including the officers.

 As they then handle somebody that’s, you know, on the outskirts of, of dealing very well with the situation. So I just, I was attempting and I have throughout my career attempted to educate myself on those things. I am no expert. I am far from anything of an expert on any of these topics, but, but at least having.

A gem. And I can tell you, so I sit on the bench right now. It just happened to be yesterday. Someone will say something where I think, Oh, if only I was good at this, I could do something with this person. And instead, you know, I have transport on the side, drumming, you know, the bass there waiting for us to be done.

And as we’re in our Billy and sentencing for the day or whatever, and they’re just like process, process, process. And I’m like outreach. How, how do I get this person to not come back? They’ve been in front of me before. Right. So it was that hope that. Even though I don’t do it or I don’t do it well, that there would be something that could change in the manner in which I was communicating with the folks that come in front of me,  when it either be in my community court and my traditional alpha court, or I have even less time,  if I could just write, it’s that one person at a time kind of change that I was hoping for.

So that was the, you know, the thing, the other thing that. That strikes me. And I’m curious about is,  one of the judges that I know that gravitated pretty strongly to motivation was judge Culp. And I know you two are pretty close colleagues.  And what were your conversation? I mean, when you, when motivation came into your conversations, what was that about?

And what were the two of you talking about? Because I know he’s a huge fan of motivational learning as well, too. Yeah. Yeah. Well, he and I met because we are both,  on the judicial assistance services program, which is judges helping judges,  it’s hard for judges to seek out any kind of assistance if they’re struggling in, you know, confidence or in just, there are lots of, of challenges that can arise in the, in the role, you know, And, and yet we are deemed to be impervious to all of that and we certainly can’t reveal it.

So this Judicial Assistance Services Program, he, I believe he was one that helped stand it up to begin with years and years ago. And I was then drafted into it,  because again, it spoke to what I would like to do regardless of who I’m, I’m talking to or who I’m dealing with and to be there to support my colleagues.

 So we talked about that as well, about having that language, because We are also peer counselors in that capacity. So if a judge is struggling, then they call into the judicial assistance services program, they are first contacted by our clinician, a psychologist that we have on staff, and then she determines which.

 Pardon me, which peer counselor would be reached to to assist with that particular judge. And so we use motivational interviewing techniques, at least reflective listening and, you know, attempting to draw people out. And so it was with that in mind that we felt, you know, it would enrich in that, it would enrich in that skill base as well.

In our capacities as peer counselors, you know, when you’re talking about that, I think the other thing that I’m so curious about is, I mean, hearing your history and your mindset and the desire for change, it’s for the people that I think naturally gravitate towards motivational interviewing. Anyway, it’s just like, there’s a there, there.

In terms of there’s something in this method of communication that I see we can reach people in, like you said, like, in this brief conversation in a completely different way. I think that I’m fascinated with is talking more about your thought process because it is threading the needle. And it’s interesting when I was just thinking about the concept of threading the needle and I was going to bring this up is like, because The needle itself is steel.

I mean, that is the justice system. Those things aren’t going to change it. And it’s a very tiny hole to get through.  When we’re talking about threading the needle, just walk through some of your processes of, or thought process when, when, you know, for both of the trainings you’ve gone through, how, how is your brain threading that needle when you’re looking at some of the concepts of motivation learning specifically and the role that you’re in, how are you trying to navigate that?

It’s like you said, the accountability has to be there. The structure has to be there, the impartiality has to be there, and then you’re really thinking from this restoration, reducing recidivism,  that you’re, that you are part of a process that genuinely does make community safer and the citizens within the community a healthier through the justice system.

I mean, so what, when you hear motivation, when you sat through those trainings, what are things that go through your brain when you’re sitting in those trainings, listening to some of the concepts?  One is I wish I had more time, even though when we watch those videos and when in a skilled clinician can, you know, raise that communication level so quickly,  and assist the person to, you know, back down on the emotions that are stopping them from, from actually moving forward.

 And actually it’s, it is. How to expand that in the, in the therapeutic realm, you know, we’re told you need at least three to seven minutes. You want to give at least three to seven minutes to each person that’s in front of you.  And getting the most out of that time period with them. And so it’s, it’s trying to weave in that skill set to get us out of, and we just had this, I had a great experience with a vet just yesterday and,  Johanna Camp, who was also a part of the most recent training with you,  also recognized when I was talking about it because this guy had been in the trees, like his whole, and we just thought, I do not know how he is ever going to make his way out.

He just was. Yeah. You know, holding onto those branches way down there and just really rocking around in it. And then we, he, there was a foul that had happened and there was a misstep that had happened along the way. And. If we had responded in a, a retributive manner to it, like if I had said, you can’t go because of this bad behavior,  and the thing was, he had, he’s not Native, but for some reason he was allowed to dance a Sundance.

And so, like, incredible honor to even just be included into the fold. Wow. And then he had been training for the last year for this, he had to go remote. And in the past when he’d gone remote, he’d come back and test positive. And so, you know, all of those grindies, you know, trees,  just couldn’t get him to move beyond.

And the idea was, well, that, you know, it had been happening so many times and so this has to be the sanction, right? He can’t go. And I thought about it overnight. I’m like, that cannot be the sanction. We will crush this man’s soul. He has been working at this for so long and so hard. And again, this incredible honor to even get to do it at all.

And so when it came time to it, you know, we acknowledged, we acknowledged the problem, brought it out. And I said, but. I’m going to give you a chance on this and, and you’re going to be able to go dance the sun dance. Yes, I want you to test when you come back and, you know, all of the ties that I, I have to, to a certain extent, but to allow him that freedom to continue to go do it, and he did.

And it was at that point that, I mean, I’m sure you see this. I say this to my, this is a whole room full of, and I don’t, I don’t mean to be, you know, sexist in any way, but I’m in a room full of men for the most part, very shut down, except for that. When things change it, you can see it in any person, but this room lights up when someone does.

Come to that point where it’s like I have turned that I’ve heard a degree on that dial has changed and I always Right, I can just see how you have felt so much better about yourself and that happened with this guy And this has been this was back in the summer and he just kept taking off from there so it was with this and you know, it isn’t specifically am I but it It is absolutely imbued with it.

I just can’t help but think it’s a flavor on that kind of processing.  And you know, of course, embracing the more therapeutic components of what can happen in those therapeutic courts. And so let’s, I try to have that happen. It doesn’t always work that way. And then in the non therapeutic courts, like I said, if I’ve got an in custody person and I’ve got Transport that’s like, would she just stop talking or trying to draw this person out?

They always want to tell me so much, right? And it, and all of the, I think that is a little bit unique in my courtroom is, is that I have a lot of very chatty participants and the folks that are, you know, getting sentenced and stuff. But I open it up because I want them to hear their own voice, right? When they hear themselves say, I really do want to go to treatment.

I really do want to change my life. And I know there’s, you know, a little gamesmanship that goes on with that because I want to get out and they want to tell me, you know, what I’m looking to hear.  But that’s okay because I know it, they know it, and they know that I know it, but they hear it, right? And then I can come back to them and say, well, last time we talked.

This was the path that you were hoping to be on. And here’s some of the steps that you’ve taken. So it’s trying to, that’s why I say, I wish I was much more skilled at this than I am, because there are some very golden opportunities that I just, like I said, I just feel them go plop. How do I get there?

Well, you know what I want to deconstruct from what you shared is that I know when you’re talking about it, and I just want to connect the dots for everyone else is that when you’re talking about the trees and the weeds, I know you’re literally talking about focus mountain that I talk about. Yes. And why I love this, because this just happened this week.

I mean, I was working with, you know,  child welfare this week. And,  and I was actually working with, I don’t know if you know, in King County,  the. Not it’s PDA, but it’s not the public defenders. It is,   a peace and dignity. Their attorneys who work with the kind of the pact co lead teams, you know, those, those systems that are trying to maintain people in the community.

Well, these are the.  Attorneys,  that work for the agency to support them when they go to court. So I was working with them this week as well, too. And what I want to, what I want to walk through with this as far as what you were talking about and connect the dots for people that are listening is what I tell people that work in the compliance based system is you don’t have to be the keeper of the boulder that fell in their path.

The boulder fell in their path because that’s the path this person chose. If you stand on the boulder and say, you shall not pass and here’s your consequence, that fundamentally is going to generate resistance and in your role, those are things that you do have to do as a judge. And on the flip side, why I love the, the, the,  example with the, the individual who had that amazing opportunity to do the Sundance is it doesn’t mean the boulder didn’t land in the path.

It was a matter that you can take your mindset from a judge perspective, from a judicial perspective and a restoration perspective is, and anything we can do to support you to get to the top of the mountain, your values we’re going to do. And it doesn’t mean there’s not consequences that need to be followed with this.

So, yes, this has fallen in your path. Yes, this is some time that we’re going to go, okay, we’re going to, we’re going to carve this, you know, a little bit of a walkway around this boulder, but there still is accountability for what’s happened here. And I think as long as you’re going to continue to focus on climbing to the top of your mountain and finding that sense of integrity and that sense of fulfillment and the, all the restorative things that your mindset sees that from being in the training.

I know that that’s, those are things when I hear you talk about the branches and the trees, and I know that’s literally, it’s so hard because law. Is in the literally that was either legal or illegal. That was either you cross line or didn’t. And then there’s the,  you know, the, the way that that gets,  the way that you assess that and look at, you know, where is the,  the restitution that comes from that, that process.

I think there’s that part of it that fascinates me when you look from that lens, but I think as you’re. The other thing that struck me when you’re talking as well, too, is that 3 to 7 minutes. There’s another thing that I want the people listening to understand and it hit me. I think it was on day 2 of this last training that you were in.

And when I went over and sat at your table for a few minutes, and you were asking some of your colleagues, like, how do you see this? Playing out and it was so interesting because would you just say not exactly what you said? I’m just going to queue it up for you. So you know what I’m talking about, but it’s, you’re literally almost talking about the facts of the case for the first two to three minutes, or that’s what they’re, you know, people are telling you the facts of the case.

And then you have to kind of repeat these certain things, which is part of your three to seven minutes. And that’s what I was thinking. Oh, I get why you barely have even three to seven minutes, because there’s things you literally have to come out of your mouth. That need to be said that eats up part of that 3 to 7 minutes.

What are some of those things that you have to say because I want people that are so into motivation to hear how you’re trying to maximize that 3 to 7 minutes you have with each individual. So what are some of the things that you have to say are typically you end up having to say during that time.

Yeah, if I’m in one of my therapeutic courts, we have to hit on the, you know, the, let’s say check the boxes stuff. So, you know, I, I see that you’ve, you know, you’ve gone through,  you have your evaluation and you’re gonna have your first session on whatever, December 20th, and you’ve otherwise had good contact with your mentor.

And so it’s the, the essentials that must be met for them to be deemed baseline compliant.  Because that’s the part of the agreement when they enter into the court is those, those things, you know, dealing with the treatment, they are all assigned mentors in the vet court arena and likewise in, in my community court, same thing.

So you, you met with the navigator and you were able to get your identification and, or you’re well on your way to get, you know, the papers and. And so it’s just, that’s that the accountability piece, which is, I have to hold you to what you agreed to from the, I’m like, I’m always in a hurry to get through.

It’s like, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. And I, but I always then find myself saying, not that I’m diminishing that it’s really important, but tell me how, you know, and then I want to launch into the next, which is. For to give them that opportunity to tell me how their last two weeks or their one week has been since last week met so that we can, you know, bring humanize it and and also bring to the table from from my perspective that.

Is as important to me that you check the boxes as it is that it isn’t just about checking boxes that you are also, you know, leading a much more fulfilled or fulfilling life where you’re on that path to do so. And so trying to open that up with some open ended questions and then, you know, hitting on reflective listening as much.

So it sounds like and trying to eliminate. I’ve noticed myself so much more since this last training. Eliminating I am so, you know, in any sort of, I am so it’s like, if I say it, then I’ll say, but it doesn’t matter what I think, what do you think about what you just told me? And, you know, trying to pull myself out of that, to give them that space to, to blossom.

 And I think that’s what respond. Sorry. No, that was it. And I think that’s the thing that I want people to understand is just, I think that’s why for me, I just keep looping through that threading the needle concept is because you. Take the three sub minutes that you have you, even if you do, you know, the two to three minutes of checking the boxes and making sure for the record, you know, these things are, here’s what’s going on.

And then when you ask an open ended question, you’re just going to get a lot of information. Some of it’s just extraneous that it’s just. Not irrelevant, but they won’t explain their situation. It’s not necessarily behavior change, which puts you in a really, it’s just the level of precision at which you’d have to know.

Motivational learning to be able to like maximize every time you open your mouth is just a high, extremely high level of precision. I think law enforcement has a rough because, but they also have latitude and you have such little latitude. In time, latitude in what you, what you do, but very little latitude in time.

And time is so precious in MI in terms of how you’re using each statement to help the brain function more effectively. And, and I think You know, even as I say this, I can see that part of the struggle when you were talking about the gamesmanship, because this is a population that I’ve worked with for part of my 35 years as a social worker is, you know, unhoused individuals, mental health, you know, incarcerated individual, just all these different situations and and there is that.

An aspect of it, because the system sets it up for gamesmanship. So how do you listen authentically and empathetically to someone that’s looking new? And it’s like, if I can get her to see this a certain way, it’s going to put me in a better position, which is more feeding the compliance narrative and the gamesmanship than it is the behavior change that you’re really trying to emulate and just radiate that it’s like.

I, we just want to make this never happen again. And not because I’m a judge saying, I don’t want to see you here again. It’s because I’m a human saying, I don’t want to see you here ever again. Like it’s just, and I think that translation in that limited amount of time just requires such a high level of mastery.

And I think that’s what I want to. Acknowledge for people that are listening as well, too, is this truly is what innovation is. It’s this how it’s almost feels like a square peg and round hole until you start to understand how to massage that and make the things the whole shift slightly and the pegs lift shift slightly to get to a better outcome for everyone.

And that is just a. That is the nature of innovation and to be on the forefront of that,  and constantly thinking from how do we make a difference in our communities through the power that I have in the position that I’m in and honoring the community and honoring this individual in front of me, that is just, that is just extremely difficult.

And I think what fascinates me. Even more Mary is that I think that I don’t know another time in my lifetime, you know, in 57 years, I don’t know of another time that there’s been as much attention on the justice system is in the last six months to year between the Supreme court, between all of the Trump trials, I just, I’ve never.

I mean, we know there’s judges and it’s interesting to me, even as I’m saying this out loud. Now, I was talking to someone about this yesterday. You just, you just always thought police were the good guys. I mean, literally I was talking to somebody yesterday at a training and during a break and they were saying, God, you remember the days when we were kids that you either want to grow up and be a doctor, a nurse or a police officer, a fireman,  like that.

And the same thing, you just always assume that judges were part of the justice system and you just wouldn’t. Question that because they go into there for the right reasons. And I think there’s partly an allusion to that.  But there’s also, that was just an embedded fabric into our democracy as well, too.

So I think it’s so fascinating that the justice system is getting tried and tested more than I’ve ever seen in my lifetime.  At least in the States and to see law enforcement. And again, I’m a bleeding heart social worker, which I would never think that that would be kind of my mindset of going, yeah, but they’re the, not the bad guys, but it’s just like, they’re just part of our system, but they’re not leaning towards the healing side of it.

It just seems like they’re towards the negative side. And then when you see all this progression in the last 25 years,  and the mindset shift in 30 years in,  the justice system, it is just fascinating to me that while that’s happening, it’s during some of the most. The, some of the deepest criticisms of court systems that I truly have, I’ve ever seen on a consistent basis in every state all the time.

Like it’s what, from the Supreme court to it’s just fascinating to me. And then how do we use these methods and mindsets to lead innovation?  So just as you were talking, all these thoughts have just been. Hanging around and, and how do we use communication to move this to the next level? Yeah, it’s, it’s very, it’s been a very dynamic time.

And I, and I, you know, again, I’m hearkening,  back. So two things, I also had a very interesting experience. Prior to going to Atlanta,  which I’ll talk about in a second, because I was invited to bring, it’s just, I laugh because,  I’ll just,  I’ll be the,  I will take away some of the mystery, which is,  they weren’t ready.

They were not ready for me and the other part of my team for, for what we were bringing, which was individualized person centered justice to the Kyrgyz Republic, which is in Central Asia, a former Soviet. And then when the, you know, Soviet Union fell in what, 91 or 92, and they had been,  attempting to stand up on their own prior to that.

But of course there was the enormous amount of suppression and all of that kind of stuff that was going on.  And the Soviet Union did not want the, you know, Union to be busted.  But then it happened. And so they have really only been, you know, they’re babies in terms of their attempts at a democratic role,  or, you know, imbuing a more democratic principles in their society than, than what had previously taken place.

And we saw everything from incredible enthusiasm from what they call para lawyers, which are nothing like our paralegals. They were like, yeah, we want to come meet your paralegals. And I’m like, you, you all are doing navigation roles that paralegals in the United States, that’s not their role. They, they are there to assist attorneys.

But their role is not as what they had developed, which is really as a, pardon me, a systems navigator because it’s so complicated to do anything there from identification to property rights or anything like that. And these individuals have taken on that role to do it. So they were very enthusiastic about the messaging that was coming from us, myself and the Center for Justice Innovation about, you know, how to do this and, and, and, and supporting what they’re doing.

To the opposite end of the spectrum where I had a Supreme Court justice tell me what I was doing in the therapeutic realm sounded like a fairy tale and not, she didn’t say it in like a happy, happy way. And I thought, well, first of all, why would you ever be so critical of somebody that’s coming here?

Clearly designed help, trying to help and bring some different messaging. Why would you say something so really inflammatory about that? But that was how she felt because that’s just not, they are nowhere near that in components of their system. And yet they could be, just as when I broke into this role.

And I’m not saying that it’s the same because it’s very different there. So I’ve never been in a country where Vladimir Putin was a welcomed guest and where the red carpets were rolled out and the city was turned down for him. But that happened when I was there. So some of our contact points were shut down because he came into town.

 So there’s still quite a bit of that flavor and there’s a, there’s a fair amount of corruption that exists there. That’s way more, more overt than what you see here in the United States, but definitely exists.  But they have, there’s like, they have a probation that they’ve just set up. And I’m like, there’s your avenue.

If you as judges have these narrow bands, then here’s the way, right? Educate your probation, get them up to speed on some of the evaluative tools that exist in the world. They then can feed you information that makes your sentencing more person centered.  That you can individualize it based upon the needs that have been determined to exist on, on that side.

Because you have this robust report that would then come to you. And then when it comes time for sentencing. You can individualize it to the person in front of you,  and they may get there. We’re not done working with them,  but it was just what it also made me very grateful of is the freedoms that we have here in the United States, and we can’t hide behind the fact that there are.

Really some significant things that have not been spoken about in the realm of the judiciary and in the realm of what’s happened with policing.  So it’s uncomfortable to have that, but I think it’s a part of how we process as to what maybe our next steps should be or could be if, if instead of it just feeling like an all out, you know, assault or attack on the credibility of those institutions.

That it’s, you know, looking back on it and saying, okay, well, how, what could we do differently? Could we incorporate a better communication style with people? Could the events have been avoided if there was a better communication style instead of assuming That this is not even a person that is being dealt with in front of you.

 And and dealing with them as a as a entity instead of a human being right there’s Bringing that in and it doesn’t have to be so squishy feely, you know out for the police officer But just acknowledgement that Again, this person is going to be a part of your community. What can, in the role that you have in the ability to open up doors for someone, how could you open that for this person so that they don’t come back in a negative way?

 As we, as we make, as we help them make their way through a system that,  we didn’t choose for them to be there, but we, they are ours to, to attempt to, to sort out. So I think that’s how, you know, even just exposure to motivational interviewing as a, as a communication style and attempting. You know, tiny little inroads using it.

When, like I said, when that gem lands and you’re laughing, you’re like, where’s Casey? Can I just have an earbud and be like, okay, no, we’re going to do it.

This has been part one of a two part podcast. We hope you’ll join us for the second portion. Thank you for listening to the communication solution podcast with Casey Jackson and John Gilbert. As always, this podcast is about empowering you on your journey. To change the world. So if you have questions, suggestions, or ideas, send them our way at Casey at IFIOC.com. That’s Casey@Ifioc.com. For more information or to schedule a training, visit IFIOC. com. Until our next communication solution podcast, keep changing the world.