Welcome to today’s episode of The Communication Solution podcast with Casey Jackson, John Gilbert and Danielle Cantin. We love talking about Motivational Interviewing, and about improving outcomes for individuals, organizations, and the communities that they serve.
In this engaging episode, we have a special guest, Jessica Keaney, a licensed social worker with a wealth of experience in community corrections. Together, we delve into the world of motivational interviewing (MI) and discuss its profound impact on the criminal justice system. We explore the power of empathetic conversations, reflective listening, and the transformative potential of helping individuals align their behavior with their values. Join us as we gain insights from Jessica’s expertise and learn how MI can create positive outcomes and reduce recidivism in our communities.

• The serendipitous encounter with Jessica at the Mint Conference and the value of authentic connections.
  
• A closer look at the Mint Conference, an annual gathering for MI practitioners.
  
• The significance of empathetic conversations and personal connections at professional events.
  
• Delving into the core principles of motivational interviewing (MI) and its departure from traditional approaches in the criminal justice system.
  
• The pivotal role of reflective listening in MI, with a focus on overcoming resistance.
  
• Validating clients’ feelings and experiences as a key component of the MI process.
  
• Empowering individuals to harmonize their actions with their deeply held values.
  
• Emphasizing the importance of empathy and compassion in guiding individuals through the justice system.
  
• Jessica’s valuable insights into utilizing MI to foster positive outcomes and reduce recidivism in our communities.
  

You don’t want to miss this one! Make sure to rate us or share this podcast. It would mean so much to us!
Thank you for listening to the communication solution. This podcast is all about you. If you have questions, thoughts, topic suggestions, or ideas, please send them our way at casey@ifioc.com. For more resources, feel free to check out ifioc.com.

 Hello and welcome to the communication solution podcast with Casey Jackson and John Gilbert. I’m your host, Danielle Cantin, here at the Institute for Individual and Organizational Change, otherwise known as IFIOC. We love to talk about communication. We love to talk about solutions and we love to talk about providing measurable results for individuals, organizations, and the communities they serve. Welcome to the communication solution that will change your world.

Hi everyone. I’m Danielle Cantin here facilitating the communication solution podcast with our favorite Casey Jackson.

Hey Casey. And we are so excited because we have a special guest today. We have Jessica Keaney. She is a licensed social worker from Massachusetts and she works in community corrections. She’s got an incredible background. I’m going to let her share more about who she is.  But what’s really fun is how they came to meet at the mint conference in Copenhagen this year.

 So as you know, if you’ve listened to our other podcasts, the mint conference. Happens every year, the international motivational interviewing network of trainers conference. So it’s kind of fun. I think I’ll let you guys explain the story of how you met and turn it over to you, Casey. Well, I am excited because I love having people on to chat with, you don’t love having John on here, but just the story is fascinating to me.

   So I’m sitting, having lunch,  at the for  with some buddies of mine. And the forum’s an amazing place to just see people from all over the world that you have kind of this heart connection with and, and mind connection, because we share the connection over motivational interviewing and, and what that means.

And I’m eating lunch and,  and then just makes a comment about the food.  Because I’m vegetarian, she’s vegetarian. And I’m like, yeah, the food has been awesome here. Like just surprisingly good. And then everyone just kind of keeps talking. She’s talking to the person she’s sitting next to. And then there’s a comment about social worker.

And then she’s like, I’m a social worker too. And then we kind of high five because we’re both social workers. And then Jess, I’ll turn it over to you because this is where I was like, then I’m kind of talking and eating and,  just. Benign sitting there. Yeah. So I just, I’m like, where do I know that voice from?

Where do I know that voice from? And I’m like.

I was like, I think I said, are you Casey Jackson? Like, if you were like an A list Oscar winner, cause to me, you know, that’s sort of, you know, how I think of you.  And so we just were chatting and I think you felt bad for me. Cause you were like, Oh, this girl is my big fan. And you were like, come on my podcast.

You know, what I was shocked is I said, Oh, you’re the one person that listens to the podcast. So you’re like, no, I love this podcast. I’m just like, that is just crazy. Cause I just forget that people actually listen, you know, I love talking. Am I, we like getting into these kinds of topics, but you just don’t know who listens and every time we tend to wrap up with, Hey, if you want to be on the podcast, if you have questions, so then you, as you and I were chatting, it’s like, Jess, come on the podcast.

So it was perfect. And now here you are. Yes. So, and one of the things that was fun about that was, and where it started, the idea of even just like, where it’s like, come on, the podcast is we just started talking about, we’re talking, I don’t even know how it came up about the reflective listening. Do you remember your, I think in a training with the way that you train with the population you work with.

Oh, yes. I don’t even, you’re right. I don’t even know how it happened, but all of a sudden we were minutes into a conversation about reflections.  And I think I sort of said like these forums have been great because I think it gave a different way to think about training,  reflections. And so,  cause I find a lot of times,  some of the folks in the trainings.

 You know, struggle with reflections and what they think reflections might mean and all those sorts of things, which, which is so common. And that’s where I think you and I started chatting about it. There was so much fun. I thought this is such a perfect podcast. I mean, we talked about reflective listening in the podcast, you know, we get into all sorts of MI skills and techniques, but I know that it’s so much more complex in the world of law enforcement and corrections.

It’s just, it can feel like. You know, well, we don’t do hug a thug, or this is a little too counselor technique for me, or I’ve just got to be real, you know, I’m not going to pussyfoot around. And,  all these things that people tend to think of, especially in those professions, but that is so different than expressing accurate empathy, which I think.

You know, so many people have the capacity to do, but they get it consolidated into a reflective statement and it feels like it’s not going to have the potency and that’s where you and I started going into, yeah, that’s so fascinating to train it differently because it’s kind of beyond the or skills when we’re looking at empathy.

And that was just, that conversation was just a blast for me. Yeah, definitely. Definitely wasn’t. It just, I don’t know. It was like something clicked to me in that moment. I was like. Maybe I just ask the folks I’m training have, which again is a closed ended question, but closed ended questions aren’t bad, but you know, have you ever said to somebody you look tired and just, and then their conversation with like, what made you ask somebody if they look tired and get to say like, that’s actually a reflection as like a way to maybe help them.

You know, understand that or grasp the concept of reflections a little bit easier. I don’t know. I love that because I think where people struggle is in regurgitating language and that’s, I think when they think of kind of traditional gerian reflective listening, it’s that kind of regurgitation or paraphrasing or parenting it back.

And when you said that what was so I thought was such a smart way to frame it, is it’s what I teach or push people into trusting their instinct a little bit more. Like when you can see somebody is clearly tired and you say, you know, you look tired. That’s, that’s a reflective. That’s like, you’re getting a good sense of how this person is thinking or feeling, or just from some observations, but they didn’t just say that you have some instinctual sense.

And that is the nature of what high accurate empathy is versus just repeating the last three words that they said, which is what so many people can reduce reflective listening down to. You know, if you guys don’t mind me jumping in, coming in as like an outsider from motivational interviewing, I think it’s really interesting because of my background, I was taught the reflective listening that you just described, which is more regurgitation.

And you just painted a great picture for me in law enforcement, where it’s just like, no, I gotta be real. I gotta be this. I can’t do that stuff. I mean, they’re going to call me on it. What I don’t want to put you on the spot, but could you give an example of. What you think somebody would say or how they would say it or think they should say it to be real and then a way that they could actually say it that that would be filled with empathy and in not in, in,  what do you call it,  address their fears?

Like, look, it doesn’t have to be that way. And you just did it with your tone when you said. You look tired. It’s like there was no, like, Oh, you look tired. It was like, you look tired. Like you, it’s solicits, like just the energy of it makes some, I would imagine makes somebody want to respond. Yeah, I’m trying to think there’s so many things that people say.

 I don’t know, Casey, do you have anything that pops to mind like of any. Yeah, I think that,  I think of things that are high empathy is instead of saying. The person says, you know, I’m just pissed at the judge. You’re like, yeah, you’re really pissed at the judge. And you know, this bullshit, I shouldn’t even be here.

And it’s like, yeah, you really feel like you shouldn’t be here. I think that’s what people tend to think reflective listening is. And for, for CCOs or POs, they just tend to go, yeah, I can’t sit there for 15 minutes and just regurgitate what they said. When you’re thinking high empathy, it’s like, you know what, you’re, you’re just tired of this process and you want to find a way out.

Like you just want to, like, you want to get out of this situation with as few consequences as possible.  That would be your best case scenario, but you’re not even sure where to start. Like that is much more strategic than just regurgitating. You’re mad at the judge. You don’t want to be here. You think it’s BS.

You know, you think your UA was clean. Like all those things that people think at first glance, reflective listening is, which it is Rogerian reflective listening. But in this day and age, we don’t have time to do that kind of just benign reflective listening and regurgitation. And I think this is where you can see that rub with.

professions that like, Hey, we’ve got only 15 to 20 minutes. We have to make some progress and there’s a whole litany of things that we need to get through that I need to talk to them about. So you training me to do reflective listening is not helping me. I think those are the barriers that we can run into depending on the populations that we train.

Yeah. And actually you just. That just led me to think of an example that I actually heard yesterday when I was talking to, to someone,  and it’s similar to what you said, they, you know, sort of said,  you know, and I don’t even, I don’t even need to be here. You’re forcing me to be here. And I sort of just said,  and, and you’re frustrated that, you know, you haven’t done anything wrong, but the judge is telling you to be here.

And I said, and at the same time, you want to be done with the criminal justice system. And I sort of just. Left it there and the person affirmed, like, absolutely. And it was sort of like, I just said, now what? That’s it. And this is when I think this is where people can overcomplicate motivational interviewing and just in a training I was doing yesterday, I was talking about one of the, one of the most effective things you can do.

Which is very strategic, but it’s not manipulative. It’s just named the ambivalence, which is exactly what you just did. It just named the ambivalence this you’re kind of feeling this way. And you wish this was the situation. And in the world, what we know that is, is that’s the sustained talk and the change talk potential and landing on that and just seeing where their brain goes, which is way more strategic than just saying, Oh, it sounds like you’re frustrated, you know.

It sounds like you don’t agree with this. It just sounds like, and I think that’s what people tend to reduce it to when they’re first learning motivational interviewing. Absolutely. You know, it really strikes me about what you guys are describing is the courage it takes to do motivational interviewing.

I mean, you’re putting yourself out on a limb in a society where I feel that we’re compelled to have the answer. We’re compelled to fix things. We’re compelled. Where there’s fear around, I don’t want people to, I don’t want to get caught that I don’t know what I’m doing or that I don’t have all the answers.

And it’s like, well, you guys are just walked through. I’m like, wow, that takes courage. It’s interesting because participants will say that, that it feels scary to do it. And they’re like, I’ll tell you one of the things that I hear a lot, and I’m sure you do too Jess, is that like, I don’t, I don’t want people putting words in my mouth.

So I don’t want to put words in the mouth and I don’t want to make assumptions. And it feels like when they watch some of the videos, it feels like they’re making assumptions. And Miller made a comment that I really appreciated.  In one of the last trainings I went through with him on that, on the new book that he and Moyers wrote.

And what he said is, you know, make a guess and try to end up in the ballpark, because if you’re not even in the ballpark, you don’t even try, how can you even play? If you don’t even try to get in the ballpark with your guests, if you don’t guess. And you can’t get in the ballpark, how do you even play? And I just thought that’s fascinating.

Just get over it. If you want to, if you want to get in there and try to help individuals. And what I always think that takes it further, and it seems like this gives people permission is trust your gut. Even though the face is different, you’ve had so many probationers. If you had so many patients, you’ve had so many clients that have used some of the same language.

And if I say, well, what do you think’s going on? You can rattle off 15 things. You have a pretty good guess are going on inside of them right now. And it’s like, just trust your instinct. Like, you know, you know, this it’s when you try to make it a counseling technique. That you start to fumble all over yourself and go, yeah, this is just more difficult.

Absolutely. And it’s, it’s funny. That is the common refrain me here. You’re making an assumption and I don’t feel good about that. And so, you know, you have to allow for the space for the folks that you’re training to sort of talk about what that feels like to make. An assumption to put themselves out there and at the same time move the training along so they learn that skill and it’s just like a, a delicate balance and sort of what I say is, yes, it is an assumption and so I affirm that and I also say that nine 10, they’ll let you know if you’re right or you’re wrong.

Absolutely. Absolutely. That’s why I love how simple and smart it was what you said about how often when you tell somebody, you know, gosh, you look tired.  You know, it looks like something’s bothering you like that. That’s such a smart, simple way to go. You make these. Guesses every day because you observe and it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to go.

Well, they look tired. They look like they’re having a hard day.  And it’s like that, that’s the start of it. So is it this? Oh, you’re putting words in their mouth, making an assumption, this wild random assumption. It’s like, no, you’re kind of tuning into who they are and what’s going on in their experience.

And you’re like, wow, is this, this is what’s going on for you. And, and they’ll usually more often than not, we’re yeah. Pretty close to on target. And the point is not to make the reflection . The point is, as soon as that lands, the person starts to talk more. And as they talk more, they’re literally opening up their world and their brain and their mind and their experience to you.

So I think for that to happen is the whole function of just you float the first one or two out there, and if people know you’re listening without judgment. they will tell you what’s going on because people want to feel heard and understood. So it’s not that complicated to make that first. You know, kind of trust your gut and then they’re going to start to open their world up.

And all of a sudden when they open their world up, you’ve got so much data to draw from them. That’s going to be much more accurate than your first one. Absolutely. And just to add onto that, the other sort of thing I mentioned is that how great if you’re. reflection doesn’t land that you get to apologize and humanize yourself and say you don’t have all the answers.

Because there is that feeling, well, you’re the law, you’re in charge. So if I don’t land my reflection, I can say, Hey man, you know, man, I’m, I’m really sorry. I read that wrong. And they’re going to talk and give you the right answer. That’s what I always tell people. If you get it wrong, then people are gonna say, no.

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I’m like, Oh, they just gave me the right answer. Oh, so it’s not this for you. It’s blah, blah, blah, blah, blah for you. And they’re like, exactly. That’s what I’ve been trying to tell you. And it’s just like, yeah, just as long as I remember you saying that in a training Casey and I was like, that is so brilliant.

So even if you’re wrong, it’s a win for them. Absolutely. Yeah. As you’re engaging, it’s, it’s interesting as I’m, again, I’m kind of weaving that little thread of all the courage it takes to, to make that assumption to. To do that reflective statement and then what it does is it sounds like it creates a vulnerability where the person that you’re talking to does feel a little more safe.

Like it isn’t a compliance, which is bizarre what you do, Jess, because I’m like, you’re in a compliance land and they’ve got to be a little rattled by that. It has to be a really cool experience. Yeah. Sorry, Casey. Go ahead. You picked up on that like it, I think it is jarring for them because they’re sent, you know, our clients are sent to us from probation and then I say to them, Hey, look, I can’t force you to come back after this intake and they’re like, Yeah.

Okay. And it’s just like, you know, that’s really up to you, whether, you know, you, you come back or not. And I sort of say, you know, if you come back, you’ve obviously made the decision that it works out better for you to continue on, even if you might not want to. And if you decide not to, you’re like, you, you think that it’s worth the risk.

To see what happens, how the court responds. And they, it just, it’s sort of wild. They’re sort of look at me and they’re like, okay, it has to freak them out. Okay, lady. That’s exactly. Oh, sorry. Go ahead, Casey. Oh, all I was going to say is it just, that so reminds me of a, one of the audios I listened to,  Dr.

Teresa Moyers, and it’s not one of her more. Popular ones, because it’s just an audio, but it was so profound to me. She did the exact same thing is the person said, well, the judge made me come here. And Terry being Terry says, well, yeah, I don’t work for the judge. And, and he’s like, no, but the judge says I have to be here.

So I have to go to treatment. She goes, yeah, like I just said, I don’t work for the judge. I work for you. And if you don’t want me to work for you, that’s totally fine. I know, but then I’m going to get all these consequences. And she goes, yeah, like I said, I don’t work for the judge. This is totally your decision.

If this is something you want to pursue or not.  He’s like, but what am I going to do if I don’t choose? I’m not sure. I just don’t want people coming here. We help them. They’re kind of out of trouble, but ultimately it’s your decision if you want to participate in treatment or not. And it’s so disarming and discombobulating because they’re used to running into compliance and you will and the finger shaking.

Which just generates resistance and reduces outcomes in a compliance driven system. So I love the way you said that because it’s like you literally see how it disarms them because they don’t know how to fight with somebody that’s not going to take it and fight with them. Yeah, it makes me think of when we were chatting, Jess,  just about your interest and what a gift to be able to give,  your clients that you care so deeply about.

Are your values aligned with your behavior? And I think what you had said was, you know, you could talk all day long about values and criminal behavior, you know, as your behavior, bringing you closer or further away from your values. I mean, when do your clients actually have an opportunity? To have somebody care about that, to help them figure out what their values are.

It’s just an incredible gift. Can, can you talk a little bit more about that? Cause you seem really passionate about it. Yeah, absolutely. So I, Casey said, I mentioned the finger wagging, like, you know, they’re the folks are constant, constantly brought up with, well, you messed up, you did this, you did that.

Now you have to do this. Now you have to do that.  And that’s not.  And so I just sort of like to ask, so what’s important to you and just start that conversation,  by gathering like, you know, really honestly information about themselves,  and what, you know, what drives them, what moves them, and then sort of going backwards.

And looking at, so maybe some of the,  offenses and sort, like, how does that, you know, work in unison? Like, does that, you know, how’s that feel? Like knowing that you care about your family and, you know, you’re also now separated from the family. What, what’s that like for you now? And so just asking, I think what’s so impressive about that in real time, cause there’s so many right ways to do it.

And so it’s interesting, just listening to the way you talk about it and the way you train it and the way you embody it. Fundamentally, what you’re doing is you’re just disarming the person. And it’s not because you’re trying to disarm them traditionally from a compliance perspective. It’s just disarming when it’s like, I’m not here to argue or fight because this really is just your life.

And when you make those comments that you get to choose. Which is so am I adherent? It’s hard to take a swing at somebody that’s telling you you have choices and they’re not doing it from a parental. Well, you’ve got some choices here that still feels authoritative. That is just genuinely authentically.

You’ve really got choices and when they’re less defensive to go and this looks like a struggle you have and this looks like some values you have. What do you make of it? What do you want to do from here? Which is just literally what I get obsessed with when, you know, talking to other mentees about these things is looking through a trauma informed lens.

You’re, you’re allowing the executive function to kick back in instead of keeping them perpetually in fight flight freeze mode. And that’s what I think of is the, it’s not being gentle. It’s not coddling them. It’s like, let’s just be. Productive to get to a better outcome. And if the research shows this is going to lend itself to a better outcome because it’s just the way the human brain works, it’s the way the human spirit works.

Why don’t we just sync up with that so we can get a better outcome so we can reduce recidivism, which is kind of the point, you know, kind of why we’re employed. I mean, I make the joke, I say like, you know, I hate to break it to you, you know, if, if telling people what to do or, or,  yelling at someone so that they would do the right thing worked, we would be unemployed.

Absolutely. So that does not work. At all. I mean, certainly, there are maybe some, some folks that are justice involved and maybe one, you know, offend once. Yes. Cause they don’t end up re offending. So some of that scare tactics sometimes does work with one time offender, you know, one time offenders. And I don’t like necessarily using the word offender, but I also think it helps folks know who we’re talking about.

 And then some of the folks that, you know, have, recidivate. That doesn’t work. Well, and the system is not choked up with first time offenders. That is not what chokes up the system. Those people actually move through the system fairly quickly.  And don’t reoffend. So that is not where the problem is in the system.

The problem in the system is, and I mean, this is my, just I’ll own all my bias, is you’re dealing with people with probably significant amounts of childhood trauma who their executive functioning has been damaged. Which means once they’re caught in this spin cycle, their natural reaction or what they’ve developed because of their trauma response is going to keep them in that spin cycle.

And we’re going to continue to stigmatize and diagnose and blame and choke the system with people that are experiencing significant trauma, have had a significant childhood trauma. So it’s just like, and I, the data bears this out, which is why so many systems, you know, justice involved, we’re looking at.

Any of these, these systems, when they look at data, they’re trying to implement all of these evidence based practices because they’re like, hey, what we do does not work. I mean, you can’t escape the data. The data says we’re not good at what we do and what we’re doing is causing more problems in communities and in families and in our society.

So we need to do it differently. But boy, when it’s so. Enculturated in some of these, you know, justice systems, law enforcement systems. It is really, really hard to kind of dislodge that and make it more of a forward thinking evidence based approach. Absolutely. I think it’s fascinating. You know, I always look at.

These conversations,  I love seeing the different industries where motivational interviewing works and I’m just so moved by,  the, the criminal justice system and how the gift of reducing resistance. or eliminating resistance. It’s incredible because I just think somebody who is like, you had mentioned like an offender, right?

It’s the trauma that’s involved most likely in their past. The way my brain works is they have a lifetime of swinging and resisting everyone and everything around them that this is the first gift they get where it’s like. Oh my gosh, let’s remove that. So you’re swinging. And then finally you’re like, oh God, there’s nothing to swing at.

Cause there’s nothing to resist anymore. That’s the first opportunity they get to go, what’s that resistance in me? What, what is that, that debate happening in me, the ambivalence that I’ve seen you, you talk and train about it’s really, it’s very, very moving for me as. It’s just a regular Joe on the street, you know, I’m like, Oh God, I can’t believe this work is happening out there.

It also makes me think of the times where I’ve just said to someone, I don’t know why, but it just came to me to say like, Hey, like that’s the way that you react in these situations, kept you alive. And kept you safe, you know? And yes, it’s drawn attention from law enforcement, you know, and ultimately you’re here.

Because that kept you safe, and just sort of not agreeing with it, also giving, like, yeah, and just, I don’t know, just making space for that person in that moment,  because again, it’s that, you know, you did this, you did that, you hurt people. And yes, they did. And also there, it served a purpose, a protective, right?

Do you think it’s fair to say what you just described just to me is like, Oh, you invite them to have a little empathy for themselves. Cause oftentimes we think with compliance, it’s like, no, no, you know, like you, you hurt people and this is horrible. There could be that piece inside of them too, feeling that way.

And that might not help them get to their next step, whereas this feels like it’s actually by pointing out some things like that, having that empathy, that maybe they can take a little breath to say, Oh God, yeah, yeah, it did keep me safe before. Not that it was, that it’s okay to do that now, but a little more compassion or empathy is, is that fair to say?

I hope so.  It hasn’t steered me in the wrong direction. And I know that. It could be some folks listening to this or even some people that I work with that would be like, I would never do that. And that’s okay. Don’t do it. It’s not authentic to you. Right. It also is going to be when you do it. It also is more associated with positive outcomes.

I mean, research continues to show that so you don’t have to do it if it doesn’t feel right to you, but then does it feel right to you to resist or push against skills or strategies that can actually get the outcomes that you kind of signed up that you want to do, try to accomplish, you know, just so there’s a discrepancy there between our professional behaviors and our own professional goals.

 And desires at the same time, and I think it does make it difficult. It’s not, it’s not a simple slam dunk. I think it is something that people have to wrestle with. The beauty in it for me is the same, the same ambivalence that the professional is struggling with is, do you want to get your behavior in line with your values is the exact same ambivalence that the, you know, quote unquote offender is dealing with because it’s just human behavior is my behavior in line with my values.

And what do we do when our behavior is not aligned with our values? We want to blame outside of herself and make excuses, which is resistance talk and sustained talk. So it’s, it’s, it’s not overly complicated when you just kind of take a deep breath and go, wow, this is just a human experience in different Petri dishes.

You know, it’s just like, this is just. The things that we’re trying to navigate and what do we want for the ultimate outcome? I want to feel less stressed in my job I want to feel like at the end of the day I made a difference and my community is safer and this individual is happier And healthier and I feel happier and healthier and the individual walks away going You know what?

I need to get my head screwed on straight and stop screwing around and and really do what I need to do to support my family and and would that be kind of a A nice win win. And it’s just like, that’s what using this kind of an evidence based practice and effective communication generates. Wow. As, as, as we look to close,  and I’d like both of any parting last thoughts from, from both of you as we close.

Sometimes I like this because we go through the episode and I’m like, the title just hits me. It’s, it’s like, I want to call it keeping it real. With motivational interviewing, because we kind of started with that of, of maybe the pushback of, of,  people trying to help saying, I just want to keep it real.

Like, you know, we’ve got to keep it real with these people.  And I haven’t, everything you’ve described is such, such a cool opportunity to be real and authentic with yourself,  as you, as you help somebody else through this. So,  awesome. This has been so helpful. It’s I opened my eyes to, to,  an even deeper expression.

I think of what motivational interviewing can do.  Any parting thoughts? I don’t know, Jess, if you want to jump in or Casey, any, our viewers or listeners.  I think we have more than one Casey.  What would you like to share with them? Just, well, I’m, I’m have my calendar open for my next gig with you.

So we’ll, we’ll book, we’ll book that.  No, I, it’s like, it’s so funny. Cause I had in my mind, like, Oh, this is, this is where I want to go with this conversation. And then it just went in ways that I wasn’t planning. And that’s Literally, am I, because you’re working with, you’re talking with another person and they have thoughts, they have feelings and it’s going to go in places where you didn’t expect and just sort of buckle up, I think it’s sort of all I can really say.

Well, just, I, I, you know, it just, for me, just kind of wrapping it up too, is just, I, there is this. Kinetic energy that like being a mint or that even draws just 9 to having the conversation and, you know, Daniel, it’s no difference in the same, you know, kind of energy that drew, you know, you and I ended up having a connection and doing some work together. And I just think there’s, if you genuinely, genuinely want to make a difference in the world, you’re going to find your tribe of other people that are going, okay, how do we make the world a better place? How do we do this? How do we engage more effectively? And how do I stay authentic to myself?

That’s my obsession. That’s why I love this whole concept of communication solution is there’s, there’s things we’ve noticed. There’s things we’ve learned. There’s things that we can. Master that are going to improve the quality of our life and the lives of people around us. So I, I just, that’s why I love having these conversations.

It just, for me is. That’s the whole point. So just appreciate this. Just thank you so much for coming on. I told you it’s going to be fun. Effortless just I love these conversations.  So thank you for coming on and having this time with us. Oh, thank you for having me. I’m very excited that I fangirled on you.

This is very enjoyable. Awesome. Thank you both so much.  Everybody. Thanks for joining us today. I hope you tune in for the next episode. Thank you. Thank you. Have an awesome day. Thanks. Thank you for listening to the communication solution podcast with Casey Jackson and John Gilbert. As always, this podcast is about empowering you on your journey to change the world.

So if you have questions, suggestions, or ideas, send them our way at Casey@IFIOC.com that’s Casey@IFIOC.Com. For more information or to schedule a training. Visit ifioc. com until our next communication solution podcast Keep changing the world