This Episode is Sponsored by: Dandy | The Fully Digital, US-based Dental Lab
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For a completely FREE 3Shape Trios 3 scanner & $250 in lab credit click here: meetdandy.com/tdm !

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Guest: Avi PatelBusiness Name: Clear Aligner AdvisorCheck out Avi's Media:‍

Instagram: @doctor.avi

Youtube Channel

Clear Aligner Bootcamp

FREE Masterclass Signup

Dental Associateship Reflection Videos

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Other Mentions and Links:

Converted - Neil Hoyne

New York University

Trader Joe's

Whole Foods

Invisalign

Enamel Dentistry

Slack

Voices of Dentistry Conference

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Host: Michael Arias‍Website: The Dental Marketer

Join my newsletter: https://thedentalmarketer.lpages.co/newsletter/‍

Join this podcast's Facebook Group: The Dental Marketer Society

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My Key Takeaways:

• If you're taking on an associate, be sure to set clear expectations at the very beginning!
• Having systems in place to show what happens when, and how to do it, can take a lot of stress off of an associate.
• When treatment planning with a patient, always address their chief complaint and how the treatment will solve this.
• If you let your profession guide you entirely, you may not find as much fulfillment!
• Try investing in your education, automation, and systems, so that you can perform your job without all the headache.
• There are clinical-minded dentists and business-minded dentists. You may find that owning your own practice isn't for you if you favor only clinical work!

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Please don't forget to share with us on Instagram when you are listening to the podcast AND if you are really wanting to show us love, then please leave a 5 star review on iTunes! [Click here to leave a review on iTunes]

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Episode Transcript (Auto-Generated - Please Excuse Errors)

Michael: Avi, how's it going man?  

Avi: It's going pretty good. How are you doing? Pretty good. If you don't mind me asking, where you located? I am in Austin, Texas.  

Michael: Oh, nice. Home of Salt Lake  

Avi: and, yeah.  

Michael: Yep. I forgot the other donut plate. Round Rock donuts.

But that's in  

Avi: Round Rock, right? Yeah, Those are both great. Where where are you based out of?  

Michael: Los Angeles. Okay. So, yeah. But my family's in, we, I grew up in Texas. We all live in Texas, but more like in the Houston area. Okay. Uh, but Nice. I know, like lately, how much has it blown up lately?

Austin.  

Avi: So I'm part of the, uh, the blow up, I guess, . Cause I, my wife and I came here about two years ago. Oh. Uh, and we came from New York, so Yeah. It's like California, New York, everyone, just met in Austin. But no, it's, uh, a lot of the, like a lot of my patients who have been here for a while, they all say like, it has changed completely.

Like, we live downtown, in downtown. I call it like the millennials playground. You've just got, The ECUs restaurants, bars, like, whole Foods Trader Joe's. It's awesome. Yeah, . Nice dude.  

Michael: Nice. Awesome. So then Avi, tell us a little bit about your past, present. How did you get to where you are today?

Avi: Yeah, so I grew up in Florida. And went to dental school up at nyu and after I graduated, I didn't do a residency, I just went straight to practice. I wanted to get a sense of what real life dentistry looked like, and so I jumped in and at that point I was practicing in Connecticut as an associate. and I got like a real heavy dose of reality

Um, Basically I was in and out of Associateships every couple year or every couple months. And you know, at the time it was, it wasn't that great, but, you know, looking back, it, it kind of gave me an opportunity to see how multiple. Different office, like how multiple offices practice. And I learned very quickly that not everybody is not doing dentistry.

From a practice, from a clinical side and a business side, the same. Everybody's doing it a little bit differently. Some people are better at certain things than others in terms of practice owners and how they're running it. I just had kind of like my learning cap on, so every opportunity I was just trying to absorb as much information as I could.

Always trying to learn whether it's from the owner themselves, from other associates, right from. Office managers to kind of see how like, the front works and stuff like that. And, it was good, but it was nothing like I had imagined. I thought that I was gonna come outta school.

you know, I thought I was gonna find a mentor, they take me under their wing, they teach me, show me all the ropes. And then, after a year or two, I would be this like all-star dentist. But I, it was a lot more of like balls in my. and I had to make the most of every situation that I was in.

Mm-hmm. . And so that's what I did. And so I was doing that. And then you fast forward a couple years was in two private offices and then the pandemic hit. And so at that point I was already starting to burn out on dentistry because of the procedures that I was doing were your basic kind of crown filling, just very bread and butter dentistry and.

I mean, I was two years outta school and during the pandemic I was just kind of like, this is not good . Cause I had just got, just got going and I had $500,000 of student debt. And, uh, I wasn't, wasn't too thrilled about what I was doing. So then I kind of just started to look around and, and see what I could do.

And that's where I. Started to just invest in education, invested in education, invested in myself, learned how to do, uh, implants, and then I dove into Invisalign cuz I was already certified, because I went to nyu. And for me it was more just like I wanted to find something that would just kind of get me excited again, uh, to do, to do dentistry.

So, Pandemic's happening. And then uh, go back to work. and then the office owner actually I told them, Hey, I took these courses, would love to implement them. And uh, the owner actually told me that they didn't want me to implement aligners cuz they didn't think it was profitable.

we had like a proper meeting and stuff about it, but that was the gist of it and that kind of surprised me because everyone that I had talked to about had said good things about aligners and at that point I had worked at like 10 offices. in the Connecticut area. And so my wife and I decided to move and relocate.

We heard great things about dentistry in Texas. Uh, we loved Austin. So we came here and I actually joined A D S O, so they were a smaller D S O and um, they were fully supportive of me doing whatever I wanted, procedure-wise. Mm-hmm. , so. They had an iTero, they had an implant system and they were basically just like, you know, go crazy with this thing.

So that's what I did and I tove in, uh, I started placing implants. When you first place implants, it's all about like case selection and, it's definitely, I mean obviously a surgery, so you're not doing crazy stuff to start and you just kind of are building your confidence and stuff that I did and that was nice.

It's like an adrenaline rush when you're doing implants, and I loved it. and then I also started doing aligners and I started like 50 cases in my first six months. And so, that's like 250 grand in revenue given that each case is, $5,000. So that was like eye-opening for me because it's almost like a, a switch flipped in terms of Feeling more passionate about what I was doing, like I was actually making a difference. Providing a procedure to patients that is changing their lives, it's improving their oral health. you know, It's night and day from when they finish treatment to when they start. And then I also got more time and freedom, in my life because I got, align.

It's not like a very like labor intensive procedure. It's a lot more of educating the patient, selling the case, and then setting up the case on a computer. , then assistant places the attachments on and you kind of essentially just like cheer the patient on throughout treatment and make sure they're motivated and, and wear the aligners.

And then when you're done, you just polish the composite off and get 'em into retainers. And so that was awesome because now I was making more money. I had more time, and I just felt very aligned with what I was doing. So I took that feeling. And I wanted to share that. So I was working with another dentist.

He had about 20 years of experience. Practiced as an owner before, and then him and his wife moved from California and then I started just showing him how to do aligners. And he also started to feel the same thing. And he was, he started doing like 10, 10 or 12 cases a month. And he, he basically said that, uh, he wished he'd started doing it earlier because it completely changed the way that he practiced.

I also helped out some of the other doctors in the, in the organization, but then I went to leader. and I told them, Hey, I would love to just have like a, a legitimate role in the company where I could just be like this in-house, call it director of, you know, of aligners and just like coach up all the doctors cuz they had about 35 doctors in their D S O. And they liked the idea of it, but it just wasn't. Aligning with kind of what they wanted to do, and they just wanted me to focus on doing the dentistry in the practice. So at that point I was pretty bummed. And then my wife told me, she was just like, you pretty much know what you're doing in terms of coaching and teaching.

She's like, why don't you just start a consulting company and consult with that test? So, I started doing that, I created a consulting company last year at the beginning of the year, and I started working with some docs and um, one of the docs I worked with, they had zero experience doing aligners. They're a practice owner. And they understood the value of having aligners in their practice and they wanted to do it. And so I worked with him and then he basically went from zero cases to 25 cases in his first two months. And then he's been able to kind of carry out At least like 10 cases a month ever since.

Because with aligners, once you know how to do it, once you, once you start doing it, you don't stop. It's like a dentist that places implants. They don't stop placing implants. Like once they learn it, it just becomes part of what they do and they continue to do that. So that was awesome.

And then, Then the consulting thing got a little crazy because man, like working full-time and trying to schedule time with other doctors full-time as well was tough. And then I stumbled upon this concept of like creating an online course mm-hmm. To, you know, make it real scalable to, to be able to reach and help more doctors, but then also not have to spend so much like time with the scheduling and all that.

So, Fast forward, to middle of last, uh, middle of last year. Yeah. And I created a uh, online training program for dentists. So it's brand agnostic. It is for meant for general dentists looking to start implementing aligners. They can have either zero experience or just a little bit of experience and.

They can basically watch these modules. I've created about four hours of content and it helps coach them through everything, from what cases to select, how to talk about it, how to set it up pretty much like A to Z, what you need to know to get started. And then I also include monthly, coaching in the program where, , they have an opportunity once a month to meet with me.

We can discuss, cases, any questions they have, all that kind of stuff. And it's been awesome because it's really started to take off and grow and it's allowed me to cut back on my clinical days, and I've been able to now focus on this, this online business essentially, that I've created. But it's, uh, it's pretty cool. you know, I may not be seeing as many patients as I used to, but by teaching other dentists how to do this procedure, I kind of get like a little piece of being able to help, a bunch of patients all over the world. And it's, uh, it's a feeling that I didn't know existed.

Cuz if you would've told me two years ago, like, Hey, you're gonna create a training program and you're gonna love the way that it feels to help and teach, I would've been like, you're crazy. Like, why would I do that? Like, I'm just. I, I, I just, I think growing up I never actually understood, what it meant to like be an educator and then now being on the other side of it, it feels awesome.

So, yeah. And then, the other thing I think is kind of how we connected was through social media. I started just putting out clear aligner content. On to my Instagram page. Uh, I even have a YouTube channel now. And just trying to get as much information out there to other doctors as possible and then help 'em wherever I can.

Nice  

Michael: man. Okay, so real quick, let's rewind a little bit, right? you mentioned that you were already burning out in dentistry because of the procedure that you were doing. What were those procedure.  

Avi: Fillings, crowns, extractions, some root canals. I didn't really go crazy with root canals, but yeah, that's pretty much it.

Michael: Those were the ones where you're like, I don't wanna do this ever again. Yeah,  

Avi: yeah. It's like you do it and then it's like, it looks good on the x-ray and then comes back, and then it's, it's just, I don't know. I, I, I have slowly come around to them, so I will do them here and there, but, . Yeah. Like a lot of dentists out there, I was just like, I would rather let the specialists do this procedure.

Michael: Yeah. Gotcha. Okay, so then you dove into Invisalign or Clearliners, right? Invisalign and then implants. And then you joined A D S O. who's D S O? Did you join  

Avi: Yeah. So they were smaller. They were called what was it called? I remember the office name.

The office name was Rose. and then they ended up selling to a bigger one.  

gotcha. Yeah. Are you still with them? No. No. So I am now at um, a smaller group practice yeah, they're called Enamel Dentistry. That's where I'm at now. Oh, enamel  

Michael: Dentistry. I may know. I don't know. So then when it comes to right now, you worked at how many as an associate?

what are some things you can take away? Like what are some things that you wanna tell, like practice owners, like, Hey man, y'all need to chill out with this. And then like, Hey, do more of that. Less of th Yeah. What are some things you learned?  

Avi: Yes. It's funny you say that. I literally have an entire playlist on YouTube with like my reflection from every job.

So definitely they can check that out. But no, it's, uh, I think the biggest thing is like above all, like, remember that your associate is also a doctor and they're also a person. And I say that because, when you treat a colleague like a person, you're gonna treat 'em a little bit differently than you would if they're just someone that you don't really care about.

And I'm not saying like, you know, you need to get all emotional and affectionate and whatnot, but like little things like be a professional. if you're gonna let somebody go, don't text. them. They did that to you. Yep. Uh, if you're gonna let someone go, don't, don't give 'em a phone call.

T talk to 'em, tell 'em face to face and let them know why you're doing it with, you know, with the notice and honor it. Like, just be a professional. and, and the other thing too is like if you actually. understand your business, which I believe a lot of practice owners don't. If you actually understand your business, you should be able to set goals from the beginning when you bring on an associate and have expectations so that way the associate understands what's expected of them. Because if you don't tell me what you, what you really need out of an associate or what you're hoping to achieve, I can't help you.

And so then you fast forward three, six months a year later, and now the owner. Internally has an expectation of their associate. And the associate may not be living up to it, but if that was never communicated, then know, nobody's gonna win there. If you are hiring an associate to just do all of your fillings, be straight up about it.

just say, Hey, I am doing a lot of surgery. I'm looking for a dentist who is willing to do all the basic restorative in the practice. I think dentists are afraid of losing candidates because if they say that, that may scare some people off. But guess what? There are so many associates out there that would love to go to a practice and only do restorative.

So I think they need to know what they want first and then communicate that. And then I think you're gonna have less turnover because when everybody knows what's going on, then the partnership is, much more likely to last longer. those are a couple things. What else? I really, I, I really love it when practices have systems and like really good systems and like, literally like order of functions, just kind of like, Hey, This is how, you know this is how the staff operates.

Like these, this is how we set up. This is like the handoffs. It's not whenever, it's like too much freedom. I take, what I've learned is like if there's too much freedom in a practice, then there is no system, right? Because now you're relying on the associate to kind of piece everything together. And that's frustrating because when you're an associate, I do think you need to, like, they should be allowed to have autonomy, but they should be able to have autonomy in the system that's already created. Otherwise your business is not efficient. Ah,  

Michael: that's smart dude. That's smart. Yeah. Cuz I feel like um, that happens quite often. You just feel so overwhelmed and you're like, look, I got extra cash coming in.

I know I need an associate. Or maybe now or eventually, Hey, do this man just, just help me. Right? You just kind of say that, like, just help me with the load. But in reality, , I guess you never really, like you said, dove into like your business and being like, what do I really wanna do? Not wanna do you think it's cuz they don't have time.

Avi: So I think what it is, it's this whole thing where, and this is my theory, is I think a lot of dentists who are practice owners, rewind. You have to go all the way back to like when they graduated dental school. And then I think what happens is they go through associateships. a lot of dentists come out.

Some definitely want to be owners from the get-go. those are the ones who have the best practices and systems because they are entrepreneurs and business owners, and they just went to dental school to have a dental degree and then like, there's two different types.

And so you've got your, your business minded dentist and you've your clinical dentist. And what happens is the business minded dentist dominated in terms of being a practice. and those are the ones who have like, a bunch of practices as well, or maybe just a couple well oiled machines.

Then you've got your clinical guys who go out and what happens is they go and they go to a couple of these associateships and then they get burned by some owners, Things like the owner will take procedures off of the associate's schedule and like really fill. Their own schedule before they fill the associates.

So that's another little takeaway is owners, if you hire an associate, leave treatment on their schedule because you make 70% of what they do. So fill their schedule before you fill your own and everybody wins because you'll have a happy associate that's busy and you're literally gonna make 70% off of what that associate does, and you don't have to do anything.

that's another like mindset thing. But going back to. What happens is they go out, they'll have maybe a couple associateships, they'll get burned, and then they'll get frustrated and they'll be like, okay, screw this. I'm just gonna go open my own practice. And they have zero business, business education.

And then they go and they become a small business owner overnight because the bank just hands out money and then they open up a practice and then they don't know what the heck they're doing. And all they really wanted to do was, they just wanted a place where they. Practice dentistry in like a, and just focus on that, right?

Like if you talk to, I'm sure you talked to a lot of dentists and a lot of 'em just want, I just wanna do the dentistry, right? Mm-hmm. , and, and so they, their only solution in their mind is to go open their own thing. But then now you've just like opened the door to an entirely new career, and you're not even, you don't even have your feet grounded in the one career that you have as a dentist.

And so now it's just like you, you're terrible at being a business owner. And then what happens is that cycle just. , it just keeps perpetuating. Cuz now they're the business owner and the doctor that's an owner. And then they hire an associate and then they traumatize that associate because they don't really know what they wanna do, being the owner.

And it's just, it's bad. Again, this is not everybody, and this is not every practice I've worked in. It's just what I've seen and what I've heard from, you know, from colleagues and it's, uh, yeah, it's, it's like a vicious, it's very vicious. No, a  

Michael: thousand percent, man, I, I hear that all the time. When. , you know, like I just wanted to do it on my own terms, my own dentistry, you know, I didn't want people to tell me what to do, buy my own technology or whatever kind of thing.

And then, you know, now they're, they're stuck with that only option. Mm-hmm. , well, I guess in the community that they're in, what would that be? On the only option if they're like shopping around associate, associate, associate and then you're like, there's no, there's no other place I have to do this. That kinda the only option.

Avi: it could be. But my thing is also is I think you could kind of get creative with it, again, there's no such thing as like a magical associateship, but I do think with even just the rise of DSOs and just opportunities out there, I think if you know, as a clinician what you want out of a practice, and you can put your ego.

Because a lot of these, a lot of dentists want to be like the person in control, But like, with great power comes great responsibility and a lot of 'em can't handle it, right? Mm-hmm. . So it's just like, maybe check your ego at the door. If you just want to be like a, a clinician, then you can find a place where you can have a role, like a specified role to do that.

Like they exist. I know they do. I've seen it. and that's why you have some associates who love their job. . they're hyper focused on what they do, and they're really good at it, and they've just found a home. And they're not the owner, right. Or they're not the, the, the number one top dog.

But they're okay with it. Yeah.  

Michael: Do do you think you'll ever start your own practice or No. ,  

Avi: uh, I don't know. I think I'm gonna start like a movement or something. , before I started practice . I'm looking to make, yeah, I'm, I'm looking to make an impact, I think right now. Yeah. My focus is definitely the, the aligner training program.

and then, uh, yeah, I, I just, I don't know. I'm not, I'm not crazy about practice ownership. I've. , think I could do it. I just don't have an interest in it right now. Gotcha.  

Michael: Okay. Gotcha. One little bit, you said you were let go through text, right? You were let go through a phone. Why do you think you were let go?

Avi: So the reason why I was let go through text is because that owner, so that practice, the agreement was that I would be part-time and I was originally, he wanted me to work every Saturday. and I was like, dude, you're crazy. I was like, I one, why are you open every Saturday? And then two, I was, this was the first time I ever heard about it. I was like, dude, I can't work every Saturday. So I was just like, I just need like a couple days. And then, so I was working like two days during the week and then we agreed to like every other Saturday. and it was actually kind of messed up because I was doing it and then this is like right around when I, uh, took that implant course and I gave him a heads up.

I was like, Hey, I'm gonna take an implant course. Is it cool if I. You know this, it's gonna be a couple Saturdays, so I'm not gonna be able to make some of those. But then when I come back, I would love to implement the procedure. And so he was fully set up for implants and he was like, yeah, absolutely.

He, he's like, you should always invest in yourself. He's like, the more you can do the better. And I'm like, sick, this is gonna be awesome. And I did it. I got the, I was doing the implant course and I'm on my, like last day, like the second to last day of this course. and then I got the text from him and he was just like, Hey, we're gonna let you go.

you haven't been working as many days as you originally did, and so we just really need Saturday coverage. Mind you, I've been there for almost a year, so I was just like, I told you that I was gonna do this, and then, and then no response Can that even happen?

it Ha, it happened .  

Michael: I'm like, it happened, man. Dude, that's crazy.  

Avi: I got the text, I looked at my wife and then I was like, I guess I'm fired. And she's just like, what? And then I was just like, yeah, like, and I showed it and then never heard from him again. Man.  

Michael: How long did it take you to find another associate after that?

Avi: So after that one I was like dropped on a. . And then I started looking in Austin. So then that's when I just started cold calling offices in Austin. I called like 30 practices. and get this, like, nobody works on Fridays in Austin. , like every practice I called, they were like four days a week, like Monday through Thursday.

And I'm like, damn, that sounds good. And like, everybody's like enjoying themselves. But no, I, uh, I tapped into my network and then I connected with this Dsso within like, it took me a couple weeks. It took me like two to three weeks to really kind of, to find it. But um, yeah. Okay.

Michael: Yeah. That's good, man. That's good. All right, so then let's talk about that aligners. I know you have like, you know, you do the consulting chorus as well, right? let's open up like Pandora's Box a little bit. Teachers right now, if you can, from someone going from zero cases where they're like, I would love to do more align.

How can we reach to 25? Like what are the instructions and steps that we need to get to?  

Avi: Okay. So in a nutshell, you have to simplify it, right? So the biggest thing is like, you cannot a lot of these dentists, these general dentists that you see doing a lot of cases , they're doing it not because they're taking on every ortho case that walks through the door, but they have over time taken on these simple, straightforward cases, gotten good results, and they've gotten confidence to then continue to do them first thing is you gotta talk about it, start talking about it with your patients. So once you know the cases that you can treat, which are basically cases that I refer, I'll just say it, I refer class three cases, bilateral posterior cross bytes. Deep by cases greater than four millimeters.

and teenagers, Those are all the cases that I refer to the orthodontist. Off the bat. I have a conversation with the patient about their issues and then I refer it. So then that way they're more likely to see the specialist and get the treatment that they need. Everybody else is pretty much fair game, so I then have a conversation in, the hygiene exam.

and they show the patients, we have a scanner. You definitely need a scanner. If you wanna do aligners, have to have to have to. And I show them their scan. I educate the patient. I talk about oral health. I do not talk about cosmetics. Mm-hmm. . And then I I believe in the treatment. And so when I believe in something, and as any dentist, if a dentist believes in it and they talk to their patient from a place of belief that it's going to improve that patient's oral health and life in some way, the patients are way more likely to accept it. it's that simple. it can be scary because it's something new. But it's that simple and that's how you start. And then um, and then I would say get a mentor, right? And, and cuz that's what I did. I, I pretty much did it. And I got a mentor, Dr. Christina Blocker. She helped me out early on, like setting up cases. sure not every case was perfect off when I first started.

Uh, I definitely made some mistakes. Everybody does when they start something new. but you have to just have the confidence to continue to push forward because, you know, with ortho it, there's gonna be patterns. And so when you take on a certain number or certain types of cases, you're gonna see certain patterns it, it's honestly easier than doing a composite class two filling.

and it's a lot of fun. I like it because you get to, you get to see a patient's. Entire mouth transformed. most of my patients that come out that were bought in for the oral health aspect and they complied, they come back and they're just like, doc, I actually floss my teeth now. And I was like, oh, wow.

And then they're like, I love it. They're like, I can't not floss my teeth. Because they're like, I can feel it. They're like, I feel the difference. And so that's why I love, that's another reason why I love aligners is because it's like this daily, it's this daily kind of like accountability. , You take them out when you eat, when you're done eating, if you don't brush and floss and you pop them back in, all the food between your teeth, you're gonna feel it, right?

Yeah. So patients will, they'll take out their liner, their brush, they'll floss, they'll put it in. So you got patients that are flossing and brushing like four or five times a day for eight months, and then when they're done, you're just like, Hey, you only have to brush twice and floss once. And they're just like, , it's, that's so easy.

And so it's like this habit that gets built and it's just like a beautiful, like comprehensive way to just treat your patients.  

Michael: What are some, I guess, mistakes you've seen along the road where that maybe like some of your clients or people have been making where you're like, no wonder, no wonder you haven't reached or passed this threshold or breaking point or,  

Avi: Uh, I think it's lack of education.

I just think a lot of dentists are doing it, not really knowing what's going on. Honestly, because it's like what happens is, and I blame the aligner companies for this, is they make it seem as though it's as easy as scan the patient, upload the records. , they'll give you like a, a simulation and then you just hit accept and you get it.

Like, that's what I thought when I first started. And there's, I bet there's a bunch of guts listening right now that are shaking their heads, and agreeing, or they're, some of 'em probably just like, wait, that's not what you're supposed to do. No, that's not what you're supposed to do. You're not supposed to accept that first treatment plan.

You have to make modifications, but you're not gonna know what modifications to do. , you know, you've been taught. So that is something that really helped my confidence and accelerated, my ability to do cases is because I kind of knew the guardrails, right? I knew, I was just like, look, I just don't wanna cause any harm to this patient and I wanna improve the current situation.

How do I do that? And so it was by knowing what to do and what not to do, and. . after you do them. Like I said, you find the patterns, you get more comfortable with it. But the biggest thing is, yeah, as people accept the first treatment plan and they, they don't know that you're not supposed to do that.

Michael: So then I guess, how do you, how do you go from there? You don't accept the first treatment plan. You're like, okay, I'm gonna continue to make, where's the guardrails? Yeah, where's the guard?  

Avi: Yeah. So for those, you always focus on the chief complaint. Basically what are you trying to solve, right?

Like, are you trying to just fix the crowding on the bottom? Are you trying to close spaces? Are you trying to, you know, the patient doesn't like the way their teeth stick, like flare out and they wanna bring that in. So it's all case dependent. But then once you know that, then you need to just, make sure you're making the movements.

that are going to achieve that result. And you're eliminating the movements that are not going to help that, cuz that's what happens is essentially what happens is you submit a case and an algorithm kicks back to you. The result and the algorithms programmed in a very general sense. You as a dentist have to make the modifications to personalize it and customize it for your case.

basically to answer your questions like, okay, so we're, that's literally why I created my program because there really, unless you have like another doctor helping you out, like there's not really that many, things out there resource wise that are accessible for dentists. There are some like in-person courses like Dr.

Galler, uh, hi, his course is, , you know, but it's an in-person course and there's a wait list. So I, I think it's, money well spent to take his course. But you also need to know the basics before you go diving into that because, um, you can go there and, and, and learn all that, but if you, you don't know how to like, have the conversation and implement it, right.

You're gonna struggle. So yeah, it, it's crazy like this, the world of aligners, it's, it's starting to take over. , I think it's already made its way into obviously the dental industry. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . Um, But at this point dentists have to have to skill up and invest in learning how to do this and bring it into their practice.

And there's so many different resources out there. And there's gonna be even more in the future, I believe.  

Michael: Okay, man. Nice. So then production wise, how much can someone expect collections and productions to, for example, let's go with that case study from zero to 20.  

Avi: so each case is, I believe they were charging like 48, 75.

just for the treatment. And then I think they charge like 700 bucks for the retainers. So that's like 55, 75, I mean, it's around $250,000, right? No, 25 times five. No, that was like a hundred and something. . No.  

Michael: still? No, I mean, like, that's a, huge amount, you know? and how much is like your, your course or your consulting?

Avi: So yeah, so right now I'm not doing the consulting, I'm just doing the course right now. My course is a thousand bucks. Oh, okay. Yeah, it's in intro pricing. Definitely gonna be raising the cost. But it's a thousand bucks. You. Like I said, all the modules to learn how to do this, you get the cheat sheets scripts for the team, teaches everybody what to say.

I go over some like insurance stuff, like people are always kind of confused on how to bill for it. I, I cover that. And then I also do a year of training, right, the year of monthly coaching. So let's say you take the course and then six months later you're like, oh, like I have a bunch of cases. I dunno what to do.

You can hop on the monthly call and then I can help you out. So that's my way of. being able to do like a group coaching type situation. But yeah, I tell doctors, I was just like, if you're serious about doing aligners, take my course. You will definitely start at least one case after, uh, and that you've already made your money back plus some.

Michael: Yeah. Okay. Nice man. I like that. So then, right now, what do you think a dentist can do today to improve their.  

Avi: A dentist they can do to improve their business. I think they can invest in systems to help automate as much of their business as possible. Cuz what that's gonna do is that's gonna lead to less stress for them.

Cuz when things are systemized and automated and there's protocols, it just has a trickle down effect and it just will oh, bring them a lot more peace. , And then they should also invest in education. Because the more procedures that you can offer, You know, The more services right, your, your, your patients are able to kind of take, take up and do.

So whether it's aligners, whether it's implants, whether it's Botox go learn this stuff. And I think the more the experience, dentists kind of know this, but the, the ones who may be younger or just may not have been thinking about it as much. You, uh, you went to dental school to learn how to not hurt people.

And after that is where you actually learn different skills and procedures and techniques and you can learn it from people who have done it and you know who, who it's worked for them, it's worked for others. So, yeah, those are the two biggest things that I would say they could do to improve their business.

Michael: Nice man. Okay. Okay. Awesome man. So then if we wanted to reach out to you, where can we.  

Avi: Uh, easiest place would be Instagram. Uh, my handle is Dr. Avie and Doctor is spelled out. I also have the YouTube channel, but yeah, if you wanna reach out to me, just shoot me a DM on Instagram. easiest way. Okay. And what's next for you?

Michael: Do you plan to do lectures, like workshops or how does that, like, or do you, I mean, you already said you didn't wanna own your own practice,  

Avi: but like yeah. So yeah. So right now, right, I, I've got this online training program. I think what's next is growing that as big as I can, trying to make as big of an impact. And then after that, I really want to try to find a way to help dentists out, uh, on the mental health side.

The, the depression, the stress, the suicides, all that stuff, because I've seen it, like I've been in that dark hole of dentistry that a lot of dentists have either been in and gotten outta or are still stuck in. I don't have like a real stat, but I would, I would say about 70 to 80% of dentists have felt some form of depression just because of the realities that, that we face as being dentists, especially when you're early on and, I wanna be able to, to create something and, and, and help people help other dentists rather, either work through it or.

Or, or completely avoid it if possible. So that'll take me time. But yeah, that's, that's next. That's where like a deep passion of mine is.  

Michael: where were you when that happened to you? Like what, why was that happening to you?  

Avi: So this was like, uh, like right before the pandemic, and it was just because I was in and outta so many jobs.

I was in and outta so many jobs and I couldn't, I couldn't hold an associateship for like three to four months. Right. I had like, I was burning out on, on the procedures and I was just kind of like, did I make a mistake becoming a dentist? Like this sucks. Like, I thought this was because for me, like my uncle's a dentist and I actually wanted to be a dentist because of him, because I saw the life that he was living, like he was able to like help his patients.

You know, His patients loved him. He was able to just good do good work. He worked great hours, great family. He was able to golf. He was, he was living a very, like, good and comfortable life. And then I became a dentist and I was like, oh, can't wait for that to happen.

And then it's just like, , I started looking at the realities. I'm like, okay, so $500,000 in debt. making like 125 grand a year. Uh, like I'm in and out. Like I, I'm doing shit that I don't even like, like I was just like, where is this fun? Like when, like when does this get fun? ? Yeah. So, yeah.

And that's when I, I just like invested in myself, right? And I was like, okay, I need to learn something. I need to do something. Cause if I just let the profession guide me, the profession was, was not going to help me. The only person who's gonna help you is yourself.

And then ever since then, I had like a mindset switch. And now I've just been following my passions and, you know, it's been like a progressive thing, right? . The first passion was the procedure, Was aligners, and then the next passion was teaching, which is now, which was then the consulting, which is, you know, has now morphed into the online course.

And so that's kind of what I'm doing. Like I'm just, at this point, I'm like, if I just follow the passion. I will be happier and I will be in a better place than where I was previously. And I think a lot of dentists have to wall off their passions or they feel like they have to wall off their passions.

Because the only other examples really that they have out there in terms of like what other dentists are doing is this whole model of like, okay, I. Graduate dental school being associate, okay, now I need to get my own practice. Okay, now I need to get five practices. Okay, now I need, you know what I mean?

And it's like mm-hmm. , there's other ways to do this. You just have to pause, out what lights you up and what makes you want. , to get up every day excited. Some people it's, it is running multiple opposites. Some people love that. Mm-hmm. , some people love, just wanna do insane, crazy, cool surgery.

Some people just want to kind of like coast and chill. Some people want to be entrepreneurs and, have a side hustle and create something outside of dentistry completely. I think it's all possible. I think we have to stop lying to ourselves and, and stop telling ourselves that, there's only one way to be successful as a dentist.

Because it's just not true. Yeah.  

Michael: I think that's where sometimes the depression can come in, right? Where you kind of mm-hmm. because you hear a bunch of things of it. You hear like follow your passion. Then you hear people like, nah, follow the work. Right? Like what? Make it work. And then another thing, no, follow your talents, right?

Then everything else will fall into play. So you're like kind of picking and choosing the, the road you. You think you're good at something, but then you find out 80 billion other people are better at it. And you're like, well, that's not my talent. Oops. So should I have gone the other way? And it gets confusing, man.

It gets confusing.  

Avi: And then it gets lonely too. Like dentistry's lonely. Like a lot of dentists are practicing by themselves, you know, sometimes they do get to practice with another dentist or such. So it's that's the other thing is like for me, Yeah, it got lonely too. Like I didn't, all my friends, like I went to NYU and all my friends, like, pretty much, we all graduated and scattered.

A lot of them went back to California. Some were in Canada, some were, they, they went up to like Massachusetts and stuff like that, and, and it's just like it's very easy to get disconnected, from your peers. And so that's why it's super cool when I see these other communities out there for, for dentists.

Um, It's awesome and I'm actually pumped cause I'm going to a conference tomorrow, voices of Dentistry and I'm excited to just meet other dentists, just meet 'em and see what's going on and, and so that's the other aspect of my program. is, uh, I have like a Slack community as well, and it's just a, another space for like-minded dentists to just kind of like be together and, and connect with each other.

And so I'm hoping that also continues to grow and, kind of how these other communities have, like their meetups and conferences and stuff. So, we'll, we'll see how that takes shape, but I think more than anything, like if you're a dentist out there, , if you're feeling lonely, you just need someone to talk to.

Like, you can hit me up. We don't, we don't have to talk about aligners or growing your business like we could. We could just, we could just, you know, we could just talk. Uh, it's always cool meeting people because I feel like a lot of us are, are going through or have gone through like similar things. sometimes just Feels good to know that you're not the only person that's experienced it. And then kinda just hearing ways to kinda combat your situation. Yeah.  

Michael: Kind of sounds like you fell in love with. or you really enjoy doing a procedure right now, but you're more in love with the mental health aspect. You know what I mean?

Of like, we really gotta get this thing to blossom somehow, but right now what I need, you know what I mean, to, for my mental health is the, uh, director of liners or that thing, you know what I mean?  

Avi: Correct, correct. Yeah. No, and that's the thing is I think it's a stepping stone, right? It, I think it's, uh, something of value that will generate. You know, You, you're gonna have happier patients. The doctors make more money after they take the course, obviously. Like I get to make some money off of it too. But it's a step, it's like a a means to, yeah. To this greater, this greater thing. I could get on stage and start motivating people, but like, who the heck is this guy?

, you have to kinda establish yourself first. And that's what I'm doing. I'm just in the process of, doing that. But by the way, I'm the director of aligners that that didn't work out. That's what I was hoping would, would be a thing at that dsl. But yeah, right now I'm, I'm just kind of building my own.

I'm just calling you  

Michael: that right now is the Hey, he line . You know what I mean? Like of his own thing, you know what I mean? That's cool. Awesome. Avi, man, I appreciate your time and real quick again, let people know where they can find you.  

Avi: Yeah, on Instagram my handle is Dr. Avi.  

Michael: Awesome guys. So that's gonna be in the show notes below along with everything else that was mentioned.

And Avi, thank you so much for being with us. It was a pleasure. And we'll hear from you soon. Awesome.  

Avi: Thanks for having me.