[00:00:00] You’re listening to the sex with Dr. Jess podcast, sex and relationship advice you can use tonight.

[00:00:15] Jess O’Reilly: Mr. Brandon Ware, how you feeling today?

[00:00:17] Brandon Ware: I’m good. I’m good. I’m a little bit tired. I’m good.

[00:00:19] Jess O’Reilly: A little bit worn out.

[00:00:20] Brandon Ware: Just, just a touch.

[00:00:21] Jess O’Reilly: This is what I’m hearing across the board.

[00:00:23] Brandon Ware: Yeah. I hear it from a lot of people these days.

[00:00:25] Jess O’Reilly: I didn’t even prep you for it. I’m like, if I ask how you’re doing, I know you’re going to say you’re a little worn out because it seems like everybody’s feeling that way. You know, I’m hearing from friends who describe their state as frozen.

[00:00:36] Brandon Ware: I haven’t heard frozen before.

[00:00:37] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah. Actually two different friends last week said that they feel frozen. Like they don’t even feel like replying in our group texts. They don’t even feel like talking about what’s going on in the world because folks are feeling exhausted and sad. And I think there’s a sense of. Hopelessness around some of the, the big issues and power and the way things are shifting and seeing how, you know, even economies are, are shifting so that it’s making it harder for people to live.

[00:01:05] Brandon Ware: I thought you were going to make reference to, so the feeling numbness, but also the inability to move, is that what you’re saying? So it’s kind of twofold.

[00:01:12] Jess O’Reilly: Right. Cause we think about fight. Or flight, freeze is another response, fawn is another response, but we’re not talking about that today. I want to talk about burnout.

[00:01:21] Jess O’Reilly: So I think most folks have heard me talk about the bulk of my work is this marriage as a business program, where I take business models and adapt them to relationships for business leaders. And that’s my favorite part of my job. It’s super fun. And it’s really interesting because it’s not like every model can just be.

[00:01:36] Jess O’Reilly: Shifted into another realm perfectly, but I think they can be adapted and no model is perfect. No theory is perfect, especially when you’re looking at, you know, for example, organizational psychology. But I was thinking that it’d be interesting to apply this to burnout today because it seems to be the theme in all the private messages I’m reading and in my friend groups right now.

[00:01:51] Jess O’Reilly: And yeah, I was thinking about applying. some theories to burnout today with a lens of an organizational psychology theory, conservation of resources, which I know you’re familiar [00:02:00] with. Yes, I am. Studying organizational psych. And I was thinking that we could talk briefly about signs of burnout, uh, the conservation of resource theory more generally, and then apply it to relationships.

[00:02:09] Jess O’Reilly: And then of course, end with some strategies and solutions.

[00:02:13] Brandon Ware: Sounds like a plan. Where do we begin?

[00:02:14] Jess O’Reilly: Well, we begin actually with our sponsor, Temptation Cruise. And I’m actually very, very excited because I just got the contract backed yesterday and I’m heading for the very first time on the Temptation Cruise.

[00:02:25] Jess O’Reilly: So this is the sibling cruise to the Desire Cruise and it’s an erotic, naughty, wild, fun, laid back, no pressure, very celebratory. party on the seas. We start in Miami, we head out into the Caribbean, into the Bahamas, into Cozumel, and it’s February 19th to 24th. So it’s kind of creeping up on us. And it’s open to absolutely everyone.

[00:02:49] Jess O’Reilly: So you can come on your own, you can come with three others, you can come as a couple, you can come as you are. And it’s for people of all genders, all sexual orientations. And it’s a big party on the seas and they, you know, there’s topless sections, there’s clothing optional sections, there’s a playroom and it’s my very first time hosting workshops on this ship.

[00:03:07] Jess O’Reilly: So I’m pretty excited.

[00:03:08] Brandon Ware: I think the only thing you have to do is. People are here to come and party.

[00:03:11] Jess O’Reilly: Yes. I would say it’s a, it’s more of a party, but you can really make it what you want. Of course you can get off at the, at the various cruise ports. Sorry.

[00:03:20] Brandon Ware: You know, I’m just sitting here waiting for all of these.

[00:03:22] Jess O’Reilly: Everybody with the language of like, get off and come as you are. And I think after 20 years of this, I’m. I’m so over it, the puns, the puns. Yeah. So yes, speaking of burnout, but do check out the temptation cruise. I’m going to link my link in the, in the show notes and I’ll put it in my IG as well, because if you are checking it out, I would really appreciate it.

[00:03:41] Jess O’Reilly: If you’d click on my link so they know that you heard about it here. It’s going to be a wild time. So back to burnout, you know, burnout, obviously everything occurs along a spectrum. So when we talk about burnout, you’re generally referring to emotional, mental, physical exhaustion that usually results from prolonged excessive stress, [00:04:00] overwork, combination of factors, and they can be individual, they can be social, they can be socio cultural, they can be political, economical, and, you know, it affects I want to talk about how burnout impacts relationships of all kinds, so not just intimate relationships.

[00:04:20] Jess O’Reilly: And I think a big one is that when you’re burnt out, your emotional capacity is just diminished and it can feel like you have no or very little emotional energy. And it can, what that means is it can be really challenging to be available and supportive. in relationships. And so you may, for example, for example, for example, become emotionally distant.

[00:04:40] Jess O’Reilly: Uh, you might find that you’re really irritable, which of course strains connections with partners, with friends. I’ve definitely noticed that when again, burnout being along a spectrum, when I feel more burned out, I don’t really want to talk to people. Like I don’t want to have individual conversations. I don’t mind big group things because it feels less intimate, but that reduced emotional availability really.

[00:05:01] Jess O’Reilly: Affects relationships. And of course, another piece of that is increased conflict. Right? So heighten stress levels, decrease tolerance for frustration. It makes us more prone to snapping, to arguments, to conflicts with partners, with family, with friends, with coworkers, of course. And then we might find ourselves, and this sort of goes to a reduced emotional availability, but neglecting relationships, like we might prioritize other things over relationships because the emotional energy that perhaps goes into.

[00:05:29] Jess O’Reilly: Maybe a job that people aren’t particularly passionate about or going to the gym or other things doesn’t, that don’t require as much emotional focus can feel easier. So there, it’s not just a neglect. It can be avoidance. Usually there’s a decrease in, in intimacy, right? And I think people use, you know, intimacy as euphemism for sex, but I just mean, it can be physical, it can be emotional, it can be relational, it can be even practical.

[00:05:51] Jess O’Reilly: Again, you can just feel too drained or stressed to even. Engage in things that feel affectionate or real. I know for me that I want to [00:06:00] avoid intimacy because intimacy, it feels vulnerable and I don’t always have the energy to break down. Right. I don’t really always feel like being honest when I’m burned out.

[00:06:07] Jess O’Reilly: Like I’d rather just distract myself with movement, with work, with other things that don’t feel so vulnerable.

[00:06:14] Brandon Ware: Yeah, I would agree. I think I do the same where it’s just, it’s easier to focus in on something that I don’t have to think about. Rather than investing the emotional energy into the relationship without also recognizing that the relationship can be one of the sources that picks me up.

[00:06:28] Jess O’Reilly: Resource deposit, which we’re going to get to with the conservation of resource theory. You’ll also often see communication breakdowns, right? Again, if I’m burnt out, everything irritates me. You speak and I’m irritated. You, you know what I mean? Social withdrawal more generally, right? A lot of people will just feel burned out by being around people and a loss of interest.

[00:06:47] Jess O’Reilly: In relational activities that were generally enjoyable in the past. Right. So I may not really take the pleasure from spending time with loved ones. And this of course results in a lack of engagement and enthusiasm. And then, you know, other people pick up on it and they respond accordingly. But that loss of interest, sometimes we’ll read it as, well, it doesn’t even feel good to, I don’t know, snuggle anymore.

[00:07:08] Jess O’Reilly: It doesn’t even feel good to have sex anymore, or it doesn’t even feel good. to sit in silence with you and just enjoy each other’s company anymore and then we’ll read that as a barometer of the relationship because we’re neglecting the fact that it’s overall burnout.

[00:07:22] Brandon Ware: Hmm. Does the conservation of resource theory, I don’t think that they necessarily look at They look at burnout from that emotional exhaustion imbalance perspective.

[00:07:31] Brandon Ware: Do they talk a little bit at all about, so in this, one of the other studies that I was reading, they talked about one of the elements being depersonalization, which it sounds like what you’re referencing, but it’s specific to the workplace. So what they say is that. Um, there’s depersonalization is where you become, uh, you just don’t care.

[00:07:48] Brandon Ware: You don’t care about the relationship that you have with a colleague. You don’t care about what it is you’re doing. And I could be paraphrasing this not quite as effectively, but it’s just that lack of, um, I don’t even want to call it civility, but it’s just, um, you just don’t [00:08:00] care.

[00:08:00] Jess O’Reilly: Right. Ambivalence.

[00:08:01] Brandon Ware: Yeah.

[00:08:01] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. We, we see that in relationships. And again, I guess a lot, many of us will use our primary relationships. So intimate relationships, marriage as the barometer of our. Happiness in life. And so we’ll see, but we’ll also say if I’m unhappy in this relationship, it must be the relationship, but sometimes I’m unhappy in life.

[00:08:20] Jess O’Reilly: So similarly, I can assume that I’m burned out by the relationship or in the relationship when in fact, I’m bringing burnout to the relationship and. Always there’s some crossover because everything in life depletes resources and everything in life has the potential to enhance resources. Again, we’re going to get to the theory in just a moment, but I think a big question that’s sort of coming up for me right now as I’m talking through some of the signs of burnout and how they play out in relationships is how do you differentiate between whether or not it’s a relational issue on account of burnout?

[00:08:49] Jess O’Reilly: Or it’s a relational burnout that’s showing up in the relationship. And I, I think that we’re, we’re capable of kind of looking at our situations. And I think as I share some of the tools and get into the theory, you’ll probably able to make that determination. And again, nothing happens in a vacuum. So, you know, if.

[00:09:05] Jess O’Reilly: If a relationship feels as though it’s all about burnout right now, it’s probably playing some role, but I, again, I think people do scapegoat primary relationships in a culture that puts marriage and intimate relationships at the center of kind of everything we tell, we tell ourselves that it’s supposed to be.

[00:09:23] Jess O’Reilly: The end all be all that it’s the richest source of love and happiness and fulfillment and care. And it can be, but it doesn’t have to be. Friendships can play similar roles. Other family relationships can play similar roles and other parts of your life can also lead to fulfillment. So that loss of interest I think does align with what you’re talking about in terms of depersonalization.

[00:09:42] Jess O’Reilly: We also see resentment. Right. So resentment is something that will start to come up when we’re burned out. And if we think about burnout, and I wanted to apply it in the lens, along the lens of the conservation of resource theory, I think we have to kind of define what that is. So it’s a theory developed by Hobful.

[00:09:58] Jess O’Reilly: I think it’s from the eighties [00:10:00] and it’s a stress and resource based theory that focuses on how we. Maintain, protect, acquire valuable resources to promote our own well being and cope with stressors. So it suggests that we are motivated to conserve our resources and it also categorizes resources into four types.

[00:10:22] Jess O’Reilly: And I’m not saying this is perfect, but I just want to share some background. So they divide it into object resources, condition resources, It’s energy resources and cultural resources. So object are more material resources like financial well being and physical health. Condition resources are more personal characteristics like self efficacy, um, self esteem, social support networks, and there’s some crossover here too.

[00:10:48] Jess O’Reilly: Energy resources, which I’m very interested in, in the context of burnout, are really the energy that we have. That is depleted by stressors and then cultural resources are, you know, knowledge and skills and values and strategies that we’re going to talk about to help navigate challenges. So the theory is that we experience stress when there is a threat to these resources and this stress can trigger.

[00:11:12] Jess O’Reilly: I think it can be applied to understand how we manage and protect both individual and shared resources so that we have a fulfilling partnership. And so I’m kind of not reaching here, but bridging these 2 pieces together. And I think it’s helpful because conservation of research theory is a framework that looks at how we prioritize and protect our resources in response to stressors.

[00:11:40] Jess O’Reilly: And I think it applies to relationships to really explain how resource management affects our overall well being as individuals and within relationships. Does that make sense?

[00:11:50] Brandon Ware: Yeah. So when I get stressed, there’s an imbalance. I’ve got these resources that make me feel good. I want to keep them. I don’t want to give them up, but I need to use them to offset the [00:12:00] stress.

[00:12:00] Brandon Ware: So the, so the question is in the relationship, I guess, you’re saying, what are those resources and how are we keeping them or how are we adding to them to make sure that we don’t have that imbalance?

[00:12:09] Jess O’Reilly: And I’m really interested, and I haven’t done any research on this, maybe I will, around, I’m really interested in how conservation of resource applies across different cultures and the way we see community because psychology can be highly, highly individualistic or maybe look at systems, but not always at community and collectivism.

[00:12:26] Brandon Ware: Yeah, no, definitely. I was just thinking because earlier you talked about how the relationship was where people express burnout, right? And what I was thinking at the time was, is that also because we’re not able to really express ourselves in other realms, right? Like you can’t express burnout in the office because it’s going to adversely impact you.

[00:12:45] Brandon Ware: Are you comfortable saying to your friends that you’re burnt out because are they going to want to be around you? So you end up saying that you’re burnt out to your partner. Right. And that may not necessarily be the source of where the burnout is coming. And I’m, I’m thinking of all of these things because recently within the last few months, I have felt burnt out.

[00:13:02] Brandon Ware: Like I have felt that all of these things that you’re talking about. And when I reflect back, I’m like, I don’t think the relationship is where I felt burnt out. I think it was all of the other things. It was just that. I’m around you and at one point you break, something happens, you get frustrated, you get irritated and I’m with you and that’s where the frustration comes out.

[00:13:23] Jess O’Reilly: And it’s a place where you can safely express how you’re feeling.

[00:13:26] Brandon Ware: Yeah.

[00:13:26] Jess O’Reilly: And I think some of us have many places and many people with whom we can discuss those things. And some of us have. fewer. I definitely, I mean, a dynamic I see, and I’m sure, you know, we’ve talked about before, is that women tend to have multiple sources of support and oftentimes men don’t.

[00:13:44] Brandon Ware: Yeah, no, I would agree with that wholeheartedly.

[00:13:46] Jess O’Reilly: And I think that as soon as you become aware of that. It’s your job to say, okay, do I want to put all of this emotional load on my partner? Where else can I address it? So, you know, I think what you’re describing really, really [00:14:00] makes sense. So if we think about the conservation of resource theory in terms of how it applies in relationships, I think we should start there and then we can get to the practical and the takeaway.

[00:14:08] Jess O’Reilly: So I was thinking about, so we’ve got resource investment and depletion and exchange and enhancement. And preservation. And to me, I think about how that affects stress and conflict and what our adaptive strategies look like, and then how we balance those resources. So that’s a lot of, you know, talk. So this is what I’m thinking.

[00:14:25] Jess O’Reilly: So when we think about resource investment in relationships, we invest various resources. So we invest time. Um, energy, emotional support, financial resources into the relationship. And the theory is that we’re motivated to conserve these investments to ensure the stability of the relationship. So I think it applies pretty clearly there.

[00:14:42] Jess O’Reilly: On the depletion side, relationships do require some investment. And I think that’s not something everybody agrees upon, but I think we’re getting there. More people would agree on that now. But we all experience resource depletion. Um, in other realms, from demands of work, from children, from other responsibilities.

[00:14:58] Jess O’Reilly: And conservation of resource theory highlights the importance of managing and replenishing these resources to prevent burnout and relationship dissatisfaction. And I promise we’ll get into what this actually looks like, but I think it’s important to go through the theory. And then I think about resource exchange.

[00:15:14] Jess O’Reilly: So successful relationships. involve an exchange of resources, right? As I said, we provide emotional support, companionship, assistance in various, you know, silos of life. And I think that the theory really emphasizes the importance of having some sort of balanced exchange of resources. Mm hmm. And so if there isn’t an exchange and it’s one way, obviously there’s going to be an imbalance in the relationship.

[00:15:37] Jess O’Reilly: And we can continue to talk about this, but I see this in work relationships. I see this in friendships. I think that there’s more of an understanding that a relationship between intimate partners ought to be somewhat balanced, but I don’t think we all recognize imbalances in other adult relationships.

[00:15:54] Jess O’Reilly: Even for example, parent child.

[00:15:55] Brandon Ware: Mm hmm.

[00:15:56] Jess O’Reilly: Right? Uh, we might have these dynamics where we, [00:16:00] and I’m not talking about a parent child dynamic in an intimate relationship, I mean literal caregiver, adult child, so we’re adults now. And what are our expectations of our parents? And then how do we respond when their needs shift?

[00:16:12] Jess O’Reilly: So resource exchange applies kind of across the board. Similarly, in work relationships, I hear so many, oh, so many of the women leaders. I work with, talk about the fact that they just feel like everybody’s sucking the life out of them. Like they’re expected to give so much. And I hear this specifically from women without kids, the idea that if they’re in the workplace, they, they don’t need to leave.

[00:16:33] Jess O’Reilly: They can stay later for the, for the meeting. Cause they don’t have a kid to pick up.

[00:16:36] Brandon Ware: They don’t, they don’t have anything to do.

[00:16:37] Jess O’Reilly: And so that, that exchange piece is really important in terms of balance. And then if we move on to other parts of the theory, and these aren’t necessarily written into the theory, but this is what I extrapolate from it.

[00:16:49] Jess O’Reilly: Enhancement. So in a, in a relationship you work together to enhance one another’s resources. So I might support your something to do with career or other part of self growth at a given point in time or across the lifespan of the relationship. And it’s a collaborative effort to strengthen the relationship and make it more satisfying.

[00:17:08] Jess O’Reilly: So there has to be that enhancement where it’s not just about how do I benefit from this. And I think that ties in with love, right? People sometimes when, especially 10 years ago, cause nobody was talking about this. They’re like, you’re taking this dry organizational. Psych theory and applying it to a marriage and it’s not the same and I’m not saying it’s the same.

[00:17:25] Jess O’Reilly: Of course It’s modified by the fact that marriages intimate relationships tend to be more intense in some ways than a work relationship But I think it’s still really important that we think about how we enhance one another’s resources in the workplace in Friendships even when you think about small things You might call it, for example, deposits and withdrawals, even when you go to the coffee shop and like, you bring some energy into it or you’re kind to, you know, the barista or.

[00:17:52] Brandon Ware: So silly, but it’s so, it’s so true when you make the effort, even if you feel uncomfortable, just be like, Hey, how are you today?

[00:17:58] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah.

[00:17:59] Brandon Ware: How’s it going?

[00:17:59] Jess O’Reilly: You [00:18:00] know, there’s, I’m in this girls love travel group on Facebook.

[00:18:02] Brandon Ware: Oh no, here we go.

[00:18:03] Jess O’Reilly: I don’t know if I’m even supposed to name it, but one of the conversations, I think this is okay to say, it’s a huge group, but sometimes they’ll talk about gifts they bring for the flight attendants for the flight crew and people get mad.

[00:18:13] Jess O’Reilly: People are like, they’re just doing their job. You don’t need to bring. So I always, if I can, I always bring something for the flight crew. Especially when I think about these short turnaround flights that are intense, you know, flight crew, at least in Canada, as I understand it, they’re not even paid till the door closes on the aircraft.

[00:18:28] Brandon Ware: And I think it’s also important. You’re not talking about bringing huge gifts. It could just be pastries or some small chocolates or of gold. No.

[00:18:35] Jess O’Reilly: Not the chocolate, the actual gold.

[00:18:37] Brandon Ware: Yeah.

[00:18:37] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah. For example, when we’re in, when we go through Jamaica, I always just pick them up little rum bar bottles on the way out or a treat from Super overpriced Jamaican Starbucks or something like that, whatever I can carry.

[00:18:49] Jess O’Reilly: And it’s not, it’s just something, it’s like a surprise. And I guess it’s becoming more common. So maybe it’s less of a surprise, but I look at that as a resource enhancement, even for a stranger. Anyhow, and then, okay, what have I not covered? Oh, preservation. So resource preservation. So these are all the ways that we kind of deal with resources and usually in terms of work stress.

[00:19:06] Jess O’Reilly: But I think that in relationships we’re motivated to preserve our individual resources as well. So I’m not talking about just the shared resources, but. my identity, my autonomy, my self efficacy. And I think that, again, this comes back to balance. How do we balance individual resources, coupled resources?

[00:19:24] Jess O’Reilly: And I think both are really important for a happy relationship because we lose it when we get in relationships. It was singles day last weekend. And so I did an interview around the benefits of being single and was looking into the data around how singles tend to be. Yeah. More self determined. Um, they have higher self efficacy.

[00:19:39] Jess O’Reilly: They have broader social support networks. They’re more open to new relationships and we lose that. I remember reading older research around the fact that our friend group shrinks when we get into a relationship, again, conservation of resources. We have so much time, so much energy, but I think that couples.

[00:19:56] Jess O’Reilly: We can get into our little bubbles.

[00:19:58] Brandon Ware: Yeah, I would agree with that. And I think [00:20:00] that there is anyway, I agree with everything that you’re saying. I think that all the things, these things are really interesting to think about within the context of your relationship in terms of like, what is, what constitutes a resource, and you also said something that I thought was interesting, the idea of the resource exchange, but I think both.

[00:20:15] Brandon Ware: People in the relationship need to understand the exchange. Otherwise, could it not be, become a drain on the person who’s investing those exchanges into their other, into their partner without it being reciprocated? And I feel like that, that two way street of the exchange is what builds upon that, that as a resource.

[00:20:33] Brandon Ware: And when it becomes a one, one lane street, it becomes yet another. Source of depletion of resource.

[00:20:40] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah, and you’re making me think about how our identity informs our willingness to give and share versus take and Expectations even when we think about it in terms of like the domestic scenario and hetero relationships What’s expected of you because you’re a woman because you’re a man and I know that we’re breaking down those barriers but the data still shows that we fall back into those rules, especially after having kids and so when I think about Some of the women that I’m working with, so these are all leaders, they all run large companies, and they just feel like everybody’s taking, like everybody’s asking.

[00:21:11] Jess O’Reilly: And part of that is sociocultural. Part of it has been ingrained in them, so they just keep giving and giving and giving. And then we build resentment. So this is why, and I promise I’m going to get to the the real take home, I like this theory applied to burnout because it makes it quantitative and finite.

[00:21:29] Jess O’Reilly: Just to finish off some of the other pieces of the theory and how it can be applied to burnout in relationships, I think it’s again important to note that when our resources are depleted, when they’re threatened, It tends to lead to more stress and conflict in relationships. And some of us even engage in conflict to protect our resources or as a way to cope with the stress.

[00:21:48] Jess O’Reilly: And that’s a difficult thing to recognize. Uh, and this, this only is a cycle where it further depletes the resources, right? I mean, it’s, it’s pretty simple where I have a bad day at work. I can’t take it out on my team. [00:22:00] I feel like I have to be this positive leader in light of all the things that are happening around me.

[00:22:05] Jess O’Reilly: And I come home and I’ve got this buildup. And so you take it out on your kid or you take it out on your, and I don’t mean, you know, you yell at them, but you don’t have patience for them or you don’t have the energy for them. And I want to talk about one of those dynamics in a moment, just to finish this off.

[00:22:17] Jess O’Reilly: So in relationships. According to conservation of resource theory, we also employ adaptive strategies to protect our resources. So I think that if you go back and listen to previous podcasts, you’ll hear many of these adaptive strategies. Like for example, the relationship check in, right? That can help us to conserve resources and to balance resources because the balancing kind of interplays with all of these, these elements.

[00:22:41] Jess O’Reilly: We always are balancing individual and shared resources as we adapt. To life stages and changing circumstances. So it will never be 50, 50 at a given moment in time. And actually this topic, I want to do a whole episode on resource balancing because it’s so broad, it’s time, it’s attention, it’s energy, it’s supporting goals, it’s adaptation, and it’s equity across interactions and equity, I think across, I don’t know how to say it.

[00:23:06] Jess O’Reilly: I guess the relationship or the family ecosystem. So it’s a huge one. I’m really excited about this topic. I have some, I feel like I wanted to make this into six parts, but I know folks want their take home. And so here’s what we know. We know that couples who effectively manage, conserve, share resources are more likely to have long term satisfaction and stability in the relationship.

[00:23:26] Jess O’Reilly: And so I think that the theory really helps to underscore the importance of how we balance these resources as a key factor in the relationship, but also in terms of either preventing. Or addressing or solving burnout because burnout doesn’t really go away on its own.

[00:23:42] Brandon Ware: Yeah. And I think as you’re mentioning this, the importance I could imagine of putting what you deem a resource in writing to have a conversation about that with your partner, because when I can say getting physical activity to me is a resource.

[00:23:57] Brandon Ware: It’s something that makes me feel good, even in [00:24:00] the moment when I feel like crap when I’m doing it, but when I leave the gym or when I leave, whatever it is I’m doing, I feel better after

[00:24:07] Jess O’Reilly: that really makes me think of a dynamic that I see all the time around. Um, around somebody wanting to invest time in something and whether or not their partner can support it.

[00:24:17] Jess O’Reilly: I, we’re actually going to maybe get to that right, right now.

[00:24:19] Brandon Ware: Oh, okay. Let’s do it.

[00:24:20] Jess O’Reilly: I think all that being said, I wanted to give you some theory radical background, but I also want to talk about how it looks in practical terms, right? How do we take theory and put it into practice to deal with burnout or prevent burnout, but also to have happier relationships more generally.

[00:24:33] Jess O’Reilly: And I think the, the too long didn’t read answer. Like the short answer is we have to manage resources. including time, energy, and emotional support to prevent depletion and burnout in relationships, and we need to build back up those resources. So I have kind of a framework, some approaches to do that, and the first begins with resource depletion and enhancement, and it actually begins with yourself, so I think that a great place to start.

[00:24:59] Jess O’Reilly: is to really think about taking care of yourself first and prioritizing and making space for your partner to do the same. So I think it has to begin at the individual level because yes, there are shared resources, but I think most of our resources are individual to begin with. And then they go to partnerships and community.

[00:25:16] Jess O’Reilly: And, but I think that we have to look at ourselves and that might involve community by the way. So what this means, okay. And I’ve been saying this for years. You have to show up to the relationship with the resources you need to be a good partner. I don’t mean every single day. I don’t mean 50 50, but what I mean is that you need to make adjustments in your life so that you have resources to offer to the relationship that might mean that you need to work less.

[00:25:40] Jess O’Reilly: It might mean that you need to take care of yourself more. Maybe that means going to the gym or going to a class or doing things that leave you feel energized. It might mean adjusting your schedule when you can. Okay. I understand that people’s life circumstances are different, but I’m speaking from somebody that, you know, I only deal with.

[00:25:57] Jess O’Reilly: Leaders. Okay. They are not folks [00:26:00] who have to work three jobs to survive because that is a different situation. So that might mean that you, you choose to work less. It might mean that you adjust your schedule, you go to therapy, or you don’t go to therapy if it drains you. Or you do things that feel therapeutic even if they’re not therapy.

[00:26:15] Jess O’Reilly: So… If you do these things, you can show up with energy for your relationship, right? And I think you have to ask yourself, do I show up with the resources I need for this relationship? Or do I prioritize putting those resources elsewhere? Let me say that again. Cause I, I think, you know what I said? I think, you know what I said?

[00:26:31] Jess O’Reilly: Yeah. So do you show up with the resources needed for the relationship or are you spending them elsewhere? And I see this in the couples I work with. And this is the dynamic. I think I was thinking of when you brought up the gym, they’ll say, I don’t have the energy to deal with this and they’ll say crap or kids or questions or whatever when I get home and they say don’t they know how demanding My job is and this of course makes me think of jobs demands resource theory But that’s more of an organizational question and listen, it’s okay for that to happen at times.

[00:27:01] Jess O’Reilly: It’s okay You’re launching new project you come home exhausted and you know, you’re not your best self fine But when it becomes the norm and not the exception it will Adversely affect your relationships with your partner, with your kids, with your friends, with your communities. Because, and this is to me the most important piece, resources like time, energy, and emotional capacity are finite.

[00:27:24] Jess O’Reilly: Yes. Boom. You have to choose where you use them. And if you don’t want to dedicate them to your relationship, there will be costs in that relationship, marriage or otherwise. And I’m actually kind of working on this. This exercise around managing this, but I’m not ready to go into it yet because I’m fine tuning it.

[00:27:41] Jess O’Reilly: But the challenge here that I see is that everyone says they don’t have time, right? Or they’re resentful or they’re resistant to their partner taking time for themselves. But if we apply contribution of resource theory, we know that anything that fills our cup means that we have more to bring to the relationship.

[00:27:56] Jess O’Reilly: Anything that drains our cup, of course, means we have less. So [00:28:00] this is the dynamic. If your partner works a lot and as soon as they come home, You want their attention. You want their love. You want their energy. And you get frustrated because, I don’t know, they want to go for a run. Or they want to read a book.

[00:28:10] Jess O’Reilly: Or they want to sit in peace for 15 minutes. Okay, I’m going to get to the other side because there’s always, you know, two sides. I, I want you to think about, okay, so they come home, they seem exhausted, they’re depleted. Resources are low, and they maybe are immediately frustrated with you because you want something from them that they don’t have the resources to give.

[00:28:28] Jess O’Reilly: I’m curious on your side, from a relational perspective, what can you do to make more space for them to build back up their resources? Can you put some of these needs on hold for 15 minutes? Maybe you can’t, okay? Like, there are circumstances when you can’t.

[00:28:40] Brandon Ware: Of course, there are always circumstances, but…

[00:28:41] Jess O’Reilly: And then the other side is for the partner who comes home exhausted and doesn’t want to deal with… Kids or questions or decisions or affection or taking care of anyone because you’re so exhausted from taking care of everything at work that you just need some time to take care of yourself for a moment.

[00:28:56] Jess O’Reilly: What can you do differently? What can you do to conserve or build resources during the day so that you don’t regularly show up like that, right? It sort of takes two to tango. And so for the first partner, who’s like. You know, I’m taking care of the kids all day or I’m working all day. Plus I’m taking care of the kids and you walk in the door and you want to go for a run.

[00:29:13] Jess O’Reilly: Because like Brandon said, it’s how we build back up his resources. I see their perspective. I see both perspectives and this, this is not like a right, wrong. One of you needs to do more. One of you needs to do less, but this is a dynamic that I see all the time. And if you care about yourself and care about your family, probably more than you care about your work, although you don’t show it, I think that the conservation of resource theory reminds us that we have to build and utilize these resources.

[00:29:37] Jess O’Reilly: Intentionally, we can’t let them run away on things that don’t matter or that matter less. And so, yes, you want to go for a run because it clears your head after work, but maybe I’m managing this household. And also, by the way, I work, whether it’s out of the home or in the home. And so I think that if we can look at it as a resource issue, rather than a.

[00:29:59] Jess O’Reilly: [00:30:00] Personal issue or relational issue, we can say, okay, we’ve got these many resources, or this is how we supplement or enhance resources. This is how we balance resources. This is how we deplete resources. And so I think it is on an individual level and a partnered level and a community level. Of course, like we haven’t, this is one of the things that conservation resource theory leaves out is what should we be doing at community levels?

[00:30:22] Jess O’Reilly: To make sure that people have resources just to be okay. Whether that’s the first set, which financial people need to be able to survive, people need to be able to pay rent. Yeah, I agree. Right. We were in a city right now where there are so many unoccupied movements, not movements, um, units. There are so many unoccupied units and there’s a movement called Ocupaz where people are moving into these units because they have nowhere to go.

[00:30:46] Jess O’Reilly: They can’t survive. And so. That’s not for me to solve. Um, although I want to be a part of the solution voting in a way that can support people being able to survive, but we have to look at this at a global community level and, you know, organizational psychology is less concerned with that and more concerned with profit.

[00:31:03] Jess O’Reilly: So that’s where some of these theories are a great starting point, but fall short. But I, to this dynamic, I, what I say is. If you’re investing in yourself to boost your resources first, it’s a way of saying, yeah, I’m going to prioritize self care, but I think it’s helpful to think about resources as quantifiable, right?

[00:31:20] Jess O’Reilly: So I’ve got this much resources. Where do I want to dedicate them? And maybe even ask yourself, does my partner deserve these really resources? I mean, that’s rhetoric. Of course, it’s a reminder to yourself. Do I want to give some of these resources to my kids or do I want to come home exhausted every night?

[00:31:33] Jess O’Reilly: And yes, Sometimes that happens, especially for my clients. They’re launching a new brand. They’re launching a new project. There’s a week or two or a month where things are just off the charts. That’s a decision you’re making, but is that how you want to live your life? And here’s what I hear from these folks and why I’m seeing so many folks decide to leave these gigs or not retire early, but shift you think it’s a month and you think it’s three months and you think it’s a year and four years goes by four or [00:32:00] nine years.

[00:32:00] Jess O’Reilly: And honestly, I feel brought to tears because I’m thinking about the stories and I’m thinking about this dynamic where we think, Oh, my partner’s selfish. They come home and they just want to go for a run. Meanwhile, I have to wrangle these kids. I have to wrangle dinner. I have to do all this. But really what it is is their resources are depleted.

[00:32:16] Jess O’Reilly: And so what can you do to support them and what can they do to support themselves? Does that make sense? Did I get away with that?

[00:32:21] Brandon Ware: No, I mean, it does.

[00:32:22] Jess O’Reilly: Went too far with all that?

[00:32:23] Brandon Ware: I don’t think you went too far. I think it, it, For me, it dawned on me the other day. It’s such a simple concept, but in order to move forward with something, you have to let go of something.

[00:32:30] Brandon Ware: And it’s such a simple concept that I’ve overlooked so many times. But if I want to give to you, I have to give up on something else. And I want to give to you using our relationship as an example, and I’m willing to give up. Some of that energy that I’m going to give to somebody else who I don’t want to say doesn’t matter, but it’s not as important.

[00:32:50] Jess O’Reilly: So, yeah, I hear what you’re saying. And when I think about it in the context, like I know what you’re saying, you’re not saying I need to give up the gym. You’re, I think what you’re saying is sometimes I give energy. to things that don’t matter. Sometimes I take, you take energy, all of us, with people who piss you off and you spend time reconciling that when you know what, it’s actually not worth it.

[00:33:11] Brandon Ware: No. And that’s really what it was making reference to. It wasn’t about taking away in this context from something that added to my life satisfaction. It actually, I was thinking about taking away from someone or something that wasn’t as important. And I could dedicate less time to that and more time to this.

[00:33:30] Brandon Ware: So in this example, let’s just say our relationship in some way. I come home and you know what? Because I didn’t spend that extra 15 or 20 minutes stressing about that person or that thing. I can give a bit more energy to this. I can come home and before I walk through the door, I can put a smile on my face and be like, how was your day?

[00:33:46] Brandon Ware: What can I do to help you right now? You know what? Why don’t you take 15 minutes and go and sit down? Why don’t you take 15 minutes or half an hour and go do something that. That’s going to add to your tank. And then when you take those 15, 20, 30 minutes and replenish your tank, [00:34:00] you’re going to come back half an hour later to this relationship in a better headspace.

[00:34:04] Brandon Ware: And likely if it’s like how I feel willing to give more back to your partner. So it’s this cycle of giving and taking and the exchange you referenced before, where it’s like you came in the door. I’ve got the kids, I’ve got dinner ready to go, or I’m, I’m in the midst of everything, which would be a gong show if I was preparing dinner, just as a side note.

[00:34:23] Brandon Ware: But you know, I’m prepping dinner and then you come in and you’re like, you know what, let me take over here for 15 or 20 minutes and then boom, I’m, I’m energized.

[00:34:30] Jess O’Reilly: You’re really describing teamwork, but what gets in the way of this is resentment. when one partner perceives that they’re doing more, right?

[00:34:38] Jess O’Reilly: When, and I think that, you know, we have research showing that it’s not about the division of labor. It’s about the perceived division of labor. So whether I do more or not, it doesn’t matter if I perceive myself as doing more. And so I think that if we think about. You know, making a list or helping to understand or asking myself why I do more or why I think I do more.

[00:34:56] Jess O’Reilly: Sometimes we don’t realize how much our partners do, which was a lesson that came out of the pandemic from. So with the clients I was working with, usually there’s a partner who runs a business and travels a lot and is away from the home more than the other usually. Okay. And usually that is the guy. And so what a lot of these guys said was I had no clue what it took for her to take care of all this stuff.

[00:35:16] Jess O’Reilly: Like I had no clue. And then the flip side was I didn’t realize what their day was like with work, you know, putting out fires. And again, there are exceptions and it’s not always along gendered lines, but there’s, I think, an appreciation for what the other. Does, that’s so important. And maybe making that inherent, like not having to see that because we do have a, you know, we have a bias towards ourselves where we think that we’re doing more than other people.

[00:35:39] Jess O’Reilly: We think that our intentions are better than other people’s intentions. And so I think that this theory is one way to depersonalize and just say, okay, we’ve got this many resources. How do we make this work? It’s not your fault. It’s not my fault. It’s not that you’re a selfish jerk who wants to go for a run.

[00:35:52] Jess O’Reilly: It’s not that, you know, I’m overwhelmed. It’s that this is what we’re dealing with. Okay. We have to move on. So. Yeah. I think really beginning with [00:36:00] taking care of yourself first and thinking about how you want to dedicate your resources. And I think the more you’re talking, Brandon, the more I’m realizing that this exercise I’ve come up with, this tool is kind of neat and simple.

[00:36:09] Jess O’Reilly: Okay. It’s not rocket science. Next is really resource preservation. So setting boundaries between other sources of resource depletion and your marriage or relationships or family. Okay. And so the primary source of resource drain for my clients is always work. And some of them set boundaries and some of them do not.

[00:36:25] Jess O’Reilly: And the outcomes are clear. Those who have clear boundaries fare better in their relationships, but also when it comes to their overall mental and physical health. And so there are so many ways this could look, this could be as simple as. Taking real time off without checking emails, and that’s really hard for a lot of people who run companies.

[00:36:42] Jess O’Reilly: That’s a lot, really hard for a lot of employees because of the pressure that companies put on them, leaving the phone out of the bedroom and family spaces, not having it at the dinner table. It sounds silly, but when you sit down for dinner again, oh my gosh, there’s so much fascinating research around families and relationships, families who sit down.

[00:36:58] Jess O’Reilly: And have dinner and have conversations are putting deposits in their resource bank, right? In terms of bonding, understanding, care, compassion, all of these things, you know, maybe setting alarms to well, first you have to set the boundaries and then you have to set the alarms around when you’re going to connect and when you’re not, because most of us wake up and reach our phones, our phones are our first and last things.

[00:37:18] Jess O’Reilly: We deal with even as you’re dealing with each other or yourselves or your kids. And so is it possible, like for example, you know, I have clients who don’t check their phones for the first two hours of the day or the last two hours. And then I have clients who many, many, many clients who check their phones throughout the night, 3am, 4am, 5am, it doesn’t matter.

[00:37:35] Jess O’Reilly: And so you’re going to see different outcomes depending on how you set those boundaries. Another piece is just really clearly communicating. out of office time to staff, to teams, to board members, and we’re afraid to do that. I know I am. Like, I have, you know, contracts with different clients, and I’m a, you know, I, I can, I, I can take however much time off I want, or I can take no time off at all.

[00:37:55] Jess O’Reilly: But if I were to say, you know, there’s going to be this five day period where I’m not [00:38:00] answering press ops or things like that, I don’t want to do that too often because I’m afraid that I’ll, especially their Western clients, that I’ll be judged. With European clients, it’s okay, like I can say, it’s August and so I think that we need to think about how do we preserve our resources in terms of setting boundaries with other sources of resource drain.

[00:38:21] Jess O’Reilly: And then third, I think about resource exchange, like, how do we take care of each other? And we can only do that if we’ve taken care of one and two, how do we give and take? And the big thing around resource exchange that I think is missing is asking. This is the biggest learning for me. And I think it’s hard to apply because we’ve research.

[00:38:37] Jess O’Reilly: Showing that when you ask for help, you become more likable. It creates trust. It cements bonds in from like a one on one perspective. It’s disarming, right? So you’re not just telling your partner how you feel, but why you’re feeling it and how they can support you. Right? So if I come in and you’re busy taking care of things and I want to be left alone and you want me to pay attention to you and contribute to the household.

[00:39:01] Jess O’Reilly: I, maybe I say like, I’m exhausted. I had a hard day. Well, dude, yes, I’m exhausted. And I had a hard day too, is what you’re going to say. But if I say, listen, I really struggled with this today, would you mind? Or how would you feel? Yeah, very different, very different language. Yeah, so just asking for help when we need it.

[00:39:18] Jess O’Reilly: And what I see in relationships is a power play. We’re like, I’m not going to ask for help. Because if I ask, I acknowledge that you’re giving. Whereas what I do is I manipulate, I change, I complain, I grunt. I do whatever it is to get what I want from you. Everything except saying, baby, you know what I could really use right now?

[00:39:34] Jess O’Reilly: Right? And then I blow up. Like we, we get a little bit stubborn. That’s another thing we need to break. The other thing of course is, is resource enhancement. So if we’re thinking about burnout, we have to be able to recognize the signs of burnout in ourselves and our partners and just simply offer support.

[00:39:48] Jess O’Reilly: And sometimes it’s just listening to be us. Uh, what would I call it? I guess a resource enhancer. And then when we think of resource enhancement in other ways, we have to be doing that across the relationship, right? And this might [00:40:00] be spending time together, setting goals together, finding new ways to connect, finding ways to build intimacy and excitement and passion because we know that when we have this strong social tie, it’s a buffer.

[00:40:14] Jess O’Reilly: Against burnout, right? We know that social support is a buffer against burnout, and so we have to make that happen. It doesn’t happen on its own. We have to make the time to spend quality time together. However, however you define it and engage in activities or conversations that bring us closer and feel good because yes, quality time also helps to replenish emotional resources.

[00:40:35] Jess O’Reilly: And I think I already talked a little bit about resource protection in terms of regular check ins, right? Checking in about the state of the relationship, addressing concerns, getting to them before they become bigger. And then I also think another important piece is resource banking. So when something is good, lean into it, celebrate it.

[00:40:54] Jess O’Reilly: We know that like celebrating. all the little things, taking pleasure in all the little things. We know from the workplace research that it, that it boosts morale and it contributes to positive team connections. And it’s the same thing in the household with your partner, with your kids, with anyone who’s important in your life, like really, uh, making time to celebrate.

[00:41:12] Jess O’Reilly: And I think some of us are from backgrounds. Where celebration is scary. When something good happens, we’re kind of waiting for the other shoe to drop. Some of us are from backgrounds where I don’t know, you get perfect on a spelling test and there’s never going to be a congratulations. No one’s, you know, I didn’t grow up with like, Oh, that’s amazing.

[00:41:30] Jess O’Reilly: Just, or like, good for you. It was like, Oh. All right. Good. Make sure you get it the next time.

[00:41:34] Brandon Ware: I don’t remember a lot of celebrations even growing up, but there were celebrations around events, meaning like birthdays or holidays. But like you said, there wasn’t a lot of celebration of the small things. And I do find like, I’m trying to celebrate more of the small little wins in life.

[00:41:47] Jess O’Reilly: Listen, every day I walk out into this living room and I am like, man, it’s beautiful. And I say it out loud. Cause I want. I want you to see it too. It’s a tiny little bid for connection and acknowledgement. And it sounds so [00:42:00] silly, but we’ve, we’ve spent a little time like putting it together. We’ve got our bar.

[00:42:03] Jess O’Reilly: We’ve got our flowers. I love the way it looks. And so it’s little tiny things. And of course, bigger things too. Right. And I think you’re really good about it with me. I remember like if I got a deal or I signed a contract or had something new, I think even when I told you about, you know, the cruise, you were like, amazing, congrats.

[00:42:21] Jess O’Reilly: Even though we knew it was going to happen, even though I’ve, you know, done others before, but with yourself, you’ve never been like that. Like I remember the first time you closed a deal. I remember the first time you closed a big deal. You, your response was literally, do I want to know what do you think it was?

[00:42:36] Jess O’Reilly: This is 20 years ago, or I don’t know how many years, 18, it was probably,

[00:42:39] Brandon Ware: I got to do it again. Or how am I going to do this again?

[00:42:41] Jess O’Reilly: Exactly.

[00:42:41] Brandon Ware: Yeah. You know what? I took that approach. Every year trying to, at the end of the year, rather than celebrating the accomplishments of the year, I would, I would start to panic or not panic, but I, there’d be anxiety thinking about how I would replicate my production the following year.

[00:42:56] Brandon Ware: And it was only when I started to break that cycle that I, you know, I took so much more pleasure in. In working.

[00:43:04] Jess O’Reilly: In other words, you had more resources.

[00:43:06] Brandon Ware: Yeah. No, no, no. And it’s, it’s funny how you look back and reflect on things and, and you can start to draw parallels or you know, you can see, like, I could see that example, I could see the burnout, all of these things.

[00:43:16] Brandon Ware: But it’s, you know, it’s unfortunate that. Some of these negative events had to had to happen for me to see the positive.

[00:43:23] Jess O’Reilly: Mm hmm,

[00:43:23] Brandon Ware: but thankfully, you know kind of touch wood that there hasn’t been anything too too negative And I do take I do take joy out of small things now like I can think about I remember Walking out of a coffee shop for the first time and taking a sip of this coffee and thinking I really enjoy this Like I can remember exactly where I was I take pleasure now In my flowers, I really, I have this Bougainvillea and I’m like, man, I love this Bougainvillea.

[00:43:51] Brandon Ware: I go and I look at it. I will angle the chair so that I can see it while I’m reading.

[00:43:55] Jess O’Reilly: And is that, would you consider that a source of emotional [00:44:00] resource? Enhancement?

[00:44:01] Brandon Ware: Enhancement? Absolutely. I would, it’s a small thing, but it adds to the tank,

[00:44:06] Jess O’Reilly: especially when. The news is so bad, right? Like we’re just constantly consuming.

[00:44:11] Jess O’Reilly: There’s tragedy around the world. All right. And it’s always been there. And you know, we’re from Canada where it also exists, but with privilege, you haven’t seen, we haven’t seen it our whole lives and the shift. And I think democratization of access to news has changed things. And so when you’re bombarde