Rand Fishkin talks with Jason Barnard about the Lost and Founder. Rand Fishkin, the Cofounder and CEO of SparkToro and Snackbar Studio, and author of "Lost and Founder, reflects on how his public association still heavily favors his past with Moz over his current ventures like SparkToro, highlighting how deeply embedded digital narratives are and how hard they are to shift. Rand shares with Jason Barnard the realities of startups, venture capital, and the misleading myths of Silicon Valley. Rand explained the harsh truth behind venture funding—most startups fail, only a tiny few succeed, and the pressure for hypergrowth damages sustainable businesses. He emphasized the need for entrepreneurs to abandon the outdated “minimum viable product” mindset and instead build “exceptional viable products”—like his approach with SparkToro and SnackBar. They wrapped up by discussing the importance of aligning your business model with the life you actually want. Jason Barnard and Rand Fishkin agreed that resisting external pressure for rapid scaling brings lower stress and greater fulfillment. What you’ll learn from Rand Fishkin 00:00 Rand Fishkin and Jason Barnard 02:13 Where Does the Knowledge Panel of Rand Fishkin Focus More, According to Jason Barnard? 02:30 What Information Does Google Learn About Show About Rand Fishkin as Stated by Jason Barnard? 03:11 Why Has Rand Fishkin Not Yet Explored or Used the Google Learn About Feature? 03:34 What is One of the Big Frustrations of Rand Fishkin in His Efforts to Change His Brand Identity? 04:00 What Can Kalicube® Do to Change the Problem of Shifting Your Brand Identity? 04:09 Why Did the Problem With Boowa (The Blue Dog) Weigh so Heavily on Jason Barnard in Brand Identity? 04:58 How Much Has the Startup Landscape Changed Since 2018, According to Rand Fishkin? 05:35 Why Has the Reputation of Tech Companies and Entrepreneurs Declined? 06:15 Why Did Many People Inside the Industry Despise Lost and Founder When It Was Published in 2018? 07:05 What Are the Terrible, Ugly Parts of the Venture Capital System From the Book Lost and Founder? 08:00 How Does the Venture Capital Funding Model Work? 08:30 Why Does the Venture Capital Model Expect Most Startups to Fail? 09:54 Why Don’t People Talk About What Happens Inside Venture-Backed Businesses? 10:35 Why is Being in the Position of a Company Like Moz, Making Enough but Not Big Money, so Hard? 11:45 Where Does the Cupcake Theory Come From? 11:55 What is the Exceptional Viable Product Concept? 12:28 What is the Minimal Viable Product Concept? 13:36 Why Did the Lean Startup Approach Work In the Early Days of Tech but No Longer Work Today? 14:35 How Did Rand Fishkin Apply the Cupcake Model in Building Sparktoro and Snackbar? 15:00 What Did Gia and Claire From Forget the Funnel Find During Their Product Test for Sparktoro? 16:09 Why Was Rebuilding the Product Less Difficult During the Private Beta Testing Phase? 17:02 Why is the Expectation for Products in Software, Technology, and Other Fields So Much Higher Today? 17:42 What is the Common Founder Mentality in Building Products? 18:26 Why Do You Need Investor Patience and Independence When Building a Product? 19: 26 Why Do Cupcake Ventures Expect a Lifecycle Return of 10 to 15 Years From Their Investments? 20:37 How Do You Resist the Pressure From Investors Who Are Not Very Patient? 21:28 How Does Cultural Pressure From the Industry Affect Startup Founders and Their Success? 22:21 How Does Pressure Affect the Confidence and Decision-Making of Founders in Their Role? 23:22 Why is it Important to Avoid Pressure From External Parties or Culture When Building a Business? 24:05 Why is it Important for Founders to Reject Business Strategies That Do Not Fit How They Work Best? 25:16 Why Do Some Founders Avoid Scaling Fast Even if it Means Leaving Money on the Table?