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Charles Moll of www.charlesmoll.com is a full-time wedding photographer based in Bozeman, Montana, with 7 years of experience.

Before wedding photography, he honed his marketing, videography, and photography skills worldwide while working for non-profits.

Since pursuing photography full-time, the Wedding Photo Journalists Association has recognised him as one of the top 150 photographers in the world.

Around 80% of his business is weddings, with the other 20% being volume and family photography. His website and online presence are very wedding-centric.

Most of his clients come from Google, referrals, networking groups, and The Knot and Wedding Wire.

In the past 3 years, he's had to start from scratch twice after relocating.

In this interview, Charles shares how he wins out-of-town wedding photography clients with smart SEO, not big advertising.

Here's some more of what we covered in the interview:

• Seven years strong — Charles Moll has been running a full-time photography business for seven years now, earning his place among the top 150 wedding photographers worldwide. It's been a steady, intentional build, not an overnight story.
• Non-profit beginnings, business brain — Starting out in the non-profit sector gave Charles more than a good heart — it sharpened his marketing, video, and storytelling skills, which he’s carried straight into building a thriving photography business.
• Weddings by design — He didn’t fall into weddings by accident. Charles chose this path, wanting to combine meaningful storytelling with a business that could support him long-term.
• When COVID hit, he rebuilt — Like a lot of photographers, Charles took a hit when weddings disappeared. But instead of sitting back, he used the time to rework his pricing, double down on education, and come back stronger and more focused.
• From safe job to full-time leap — Leaving full-time work wasn’t a reckless jump. Charles mapped out milestones, kept a close eye on finances, and made the move carefully — managing both his mindset and money along the way.
• Rebuilding after every move — Relocating to a new city meant starting over — twice. But with strong SEO and consistent marketing, Charles kept enquiries coming and momentum steady.
• Tapping into a booming market — Based now in Bozeman, Montana, Charles is positioned perfectly in a growing luxury wedding hotspot — working across the state with clients who value quality and experience.
• Winning the Google game — Out-of-town couples don’t care who’s “known” locally — they care who shows up online. Charles made sure he’s the one they find, and it’s paying off.
• A brand that speaks for itself — The “Charles Moll” brand feels clean, professional, and premium. Couples feel that before they even enquire — it’s all been built intentionally.
• Quality over quantity — Rather than chasing 40 weddings a year, Charles works with 15–20 couples — the right fit — delivering a high-touch experience that clients remember and rave about.
• Pricing with a strategy — Raising prices was never about charging more for the sake of it. Charles restructured his offers to align with what his ideal clients actually want — and it’s working.
• Full-day coverage, full trust — Unlimited wedding day coverage removes pressure from couples and builds trust early — plus, it leads to bigger bookings naturally.
• Listings that make sense — Paid listings on platforms like The Knot and WeddingWire aren’t just throwing money away — they’re smart investments that continue to deliver genuine enquiries.
• A smooth path to booking — Quick video calls, clear next steps, no confusion. The faster and easier the process feels, the quicker couples commit.
• Leading, not selling — Charles positions himself as a guide, not a salesperson. That trust-first approach consistently leads to bookings without the hard sell.
• The small touches add up — He covers credit card fees for his couples — a simple gesture that leaves a big impression and builds loyalty.
• More than just great photos — Sure, the photos are beautiful, but it's the experience Charles creates that gets people talking — and referring.
• Albums that feel like heirlooms — Albums aren’t just products to upsell — they’re part of the experience. When couples see and feel them in real life, they want them.
• Designing albums together — Live album design calls aren’t just about getting sales — they deepen the emotional connection, leading to more pages and bigger orders naturally.
• Networking with purpose — Local networking groups aren’t just social time — they’re part of Charles’ bigger business plan, bringing in family shoots and extra work that keeps his business balanced year-round.

 

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I just put myself as the lowest priced photographer on there, because at that point, I was just like, I need to book weddings. I need to shoot… I just need to put my name out there and show that I'm doing work. – Charles Moll

You'll also receive access to the members-only Secret Facebook Group, where you can connect with other Premium Members and interview guests to help, support and motivate you to take ideas you hear in each episode and put them into action. The group also has FB live video tutorials, role-play, and special live interviews. You will not find more friendly, motivated, caring and sharing photographers online.

Seriously, that's not all.

Going with that four full day unlimited collection has really been awesome. I thought it would have hurt me… but for whatever reason like that has allowed me to really provide just a huge amount more value to my clients, and then be willing to invest in my higher tier collections, which really surprised me. – Charles Moll

In addition to everything above, you'll get access to instructions on forming or joining a MasterMind Group with other premium members. These groups are super motivating, make you accountable, and build friendships with other pro photographers with motives similar to yours – to build a more successful photography business.

 

 

What is your big takeaway?

Following this interview, I’d love to know if you're taking anything from what Charles shared. Is there something you heard that excited or motivated you to the point where you thought, yeah, I'm going to do that! If so, leave your thoughts in the comments below; let me know your takeaways and what you plan to implement in your business based on what you heard in today's episode.

My process is identical. No matter where an inquiry comes through… As soon as I get their info, I'll try to get them on the phone, with the goal of getting folks to a video call where we can walk through everything. – Charles Moll

If you have any questions I missed, a specific question you’d like to ask Charles, or a way to thank you for coming on the show, feel free to add them in the comments area below.

 

 

iTunes Reviews and Shout-outs

I check for any new iTunes or Google reviews each week, and it's always a buzz to receive these… for several reasons.

Firstly, it's confirmation that I'm on the right track with the interviews and that they are helping you improve your photography business. That's awesome!

Secondly, iTunes and Google are the most significant podcast search engines, and your reviews and ratings help other photographers find PhotoBizX. More listeners mean more interviews and, ultimately, a better show.

If there is something people are really excited about, I'll throw it into as a gift… just as an incentive to book more. – Charles Moll

If you have left a review in the past, thank you! If you haven't and you'd like to, head to https://photobizx.com/itunes or https://photobizx.com/google. You can leave some honest feedback and a rating, which will help me and the show. I'll be sure to thank you on the show and add a link to your website or blog if you let me know the URL of your website and your name.

Alternatively, if you've left a review for PhotoBizX and are looking for more backlinks to help your SEO, leave a review for the new Photography Xperiment Podcast. Email me your keywords or phrases and where you'd like me to link them.

As soon as I dropped that second or that engagement session from that collection, it really opened up that package for a lot more folks… I do a four package method, so I'm really trying to book that, you know, second one from the top. – Charles Moll

Another great way to get a backlink to your site is to send a video testimonial. It doesn't need to be fancy, and your phone will be perfect. Click record and tell me how PhotoBizX has impacted you and your photography business.​

Links to people, places and things mentioned in this episode:

Charles Moll Website

Charles Moll on Instagram

Charles Moll on Facebook

I'm constantly redoing my collections. I'm constantly tweaking my pricing, and it's really just trying to find, like, that sweet spot of, like, you know, what do I need to include to be able to book clients? You know, where are the sticking points in my collections? – Charles Moll

Thank you!

Really appreciate you tuning in. Big thanks to Charles for being so open and honest in this chat. There’s a lot of noise out there, and it’s great to hear from someone who’s actually shooting, still building, and doing it for the right reasons. We covered everything from spotting the fakes to finding the right support — and what it really looks like to build a business you’re proud of. Hope you love this one as much as I did.

For me, I really use the networking groups to grow the other parts of my business outside of weddings, because, you know, wanting to be more in that high end wedding market, I want to keep my brand pretty, pretty focused online. – Charles Moll

That’s it for me this week; I hope everything is going well for you in life and business!

Thanks, and speak soon
Andrew

Episode Transcript Email Download New Tab 614: Charles Moll - Winning Out-of-Town Wedding Photography Clients with Smart SEO

 
Andrew Hellmich: Today's guest is a full time wedding photographer of seven years. He's based in Bozeman, Montana, in the US and before wedding photography, he was honing his marketing, videography, and photography skills across the globe while working for nonprofits. Since going all in with photography, he's been recognized as one of the top 150 photographers in the world by the Wedding Photojournalist Association. Around 80% of his business is weddings, with another 20 being volume and family photography. Now, in saying that, his website and online presence is very much wedding -centric. The majority of his clients are coming from Google, referrals, networking groups, plus The Knot and Wedding Wire, and in the past three years, he's had to start from scratch twice after relocating in the state. I'm talking about Charles Moll, and I am looking forward to learning so much more. Charles, welcome.

Charles Moll: Thanks so much for having me, Andrew. I'm super excited to be here and, yeah, excited to chat a bit about business.

Andrew Hellmich: Fantastic, mate. What? Why go all in with wedding photography when it sounds like you had a pretty awesome job working for the nonprofits?

Charles Moll: Yeah, I think for me, like, wedding photography is always the most fun that I've had doing photography. I love, really the journalism aspect and telling people's stories. And pretty early on in photography, I realized, like, probably being a photojournalist isn't going to be something that will pay the bills very well. But, you know, weddings are a great way to still do that storytelling piece, get that front row seat to tell folks his stories, and, you know, actually be able to make a living as well. So for me, I just love weddings. They're a blast, and it's fun to see people on like, the just one of those really big days of their life, when it's a lot of big emotions for really everyone involved, from the bride and groom or, you know, the family, or whatever it might be.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah. I mean, I think you're right. I mean, weddings is the one, I guess, genre where you can be a photo journalist and get paid for it and make a good living doing it. Did you start shooting weddings while you were working for the nonprofits? Or, like, tell me about that transition?

Charles Moll: Yeah. So I went to school for photography, graduated in 2017 and then worked for nonprofits, and I wanted to get into photography as one of those things where I was kind of too scared to take the leap into doing my own business. So, for me, it was the safe option to just have that nice nine to five type of job. But I think the first wedding I shot would have been 2017 or 2018 and it was just, it was just a blast, like I just loved it start to finish. And then after doing that, I was like, "Okay, I gotta figure out a way to actually make this work" and, you know, take this risk and try and make it into more of a career.

Andrew Hellmich: What happened then? Did you, like, did you quit the other job? Did you start booking some weddings? Like, tell me about the actual transition.

Charles Moll: 2019 was kind of my first year pursuing doing photography as a business. I picked up a few weddings and more family and just photo shoots there, trying to just get my name out there. I was really doing the shotgun approach, just throwing everything out that I could. I really did not think about my business in any thoughtful way at all during 2019 and then 2020 and COVID happened, and just absolutely demolished my business. You know, I think I had maybe one shoot that whole year. And really the main reason for that is I hadn't built any good procedures, good processes for my business, and the pandemic just tanked it. So 2021 rolled around and it was like, "Okay, I need to actually try and do something better". Things were opening up a bit in Montana. So really decided I need "Okay, if I'm going to take this leap to doing photography as a business, I need to do it a lot more thoughtfully. Start investing in education, reading books". And what I did that year is I had a profile on The Knot or Wedding Wire. I can't remember which one, and I just put myself as the lowest priced photographer on there, because at that point, I was just like, I need to book weddings, I need to shoot, I need to get out into the world. I need to meet people, and I just need to put my name out there and show that I'm doing work. And had a pretty okay. I mean, I shot a lot, but I didn't make any money that year, but it really allowed me to leverage my business to 2022 where I was able to quit my full time job, work part time through the winter, and then by 2023 was able to take my business full time.

Andrew Hellmich: Wow. Okay, that's a bit of a journey there. So in 2019 through to 2021 were you still working for the nonprofits, were you?

Charles Moll: Yep, I was. I was doing fundraising and marketing. So it was a great opportunity with that job, just to learn a lot about how to how to grow a business, even though, you know, it was growing someone else's business, I learned a lot about social media, SEO, networking all those sorts of things and just how to communicate my value to people and just become a better communicator, which really reap dividends in actually being able to book higher and higher budget clients and take it full time.

Andrew Hellmich: When you decided to go full time. Did you say that was 2022, 2023?

Charles Moll: Yeah, 2022 was when I took the leap to quitting my job and being like, part full time. I had a part time job in the winter when things were slow and yeah, really, what the main reason for that was, is I was just super burned out. I mean, between working a full time job and then putting every spare moment into trying to get my business off of the ground. I was, I was just toast.

Andrew Hellmich: I remember those days. I know what it's like. It is tough.

Charles Moll: Yeah, it was, it was a lot, for sure.

Andrew Hellmich: So did you have, like, a certain number of weddings that you needed to have on the books? Did you chat about this with your partner or your wife? Like, what was the exit strategy from the full time job? What was the catalyst that said, Okay, "I can make the leap now". Or did you just think, "You know what, I'm going to risk it?"

Charles Moll: It was a bit of both. I think when I left, I had a pretty solid amount of weddings left that summer. I think I had eight or so, because I left my job mid-summer, and it's like, "okay, this will be enough to at least float me through", I think it was like October, November. And then if things, you know, money gets tight, I can pick up a part time job while I'm trying to book the next season. And that was kind of a weird time where, for whatever reason, I think it was mainly I did a big jump in pricing. I was able to book a ton of weddings for 2024 but 2023 was just kind of slow, and I think it was this thing of the people who were wanting to invest more in wedding photography, they were planning their wedding a little bit further out. So it was very much not a thoughtful decision. It was just like, "I can't do this anymore. I just need to do something different and take that risk".

Andrew Hellmich: Were you scared to take the risk, or were you excited about it? How did you feel?

Charles Moll: Oh, man, I was, I was freaking out the whole time. It was this thing, my wife and I had this kind of joke where I was like, "Okay, you need to give me a date that I can freak out, because otherwise I'm just going to freak out every day". So she's like, "Okay, you can't freak out till October 1st". It's like...

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, cool.

Charles Moll: I'm going to put my head down. I'm going to do what I need to do, and then when October 1st comes around, I'll freak out. And that just kind of became a rhythm that we would do, where you know, take these little gaps, and then it would be like, "Okay, I'm gonna try to make it till this date and then reassess". Because I don't know. I just found that if I was always worrying about, "Oh no, am I going to do? Am I doing enough?", I would just become so over critical and get more frozen, instead of being like, "All right, I have this date down the road. I'm going to do everything I can, and then when that date comes, I'll reassess".

Andrew Hellmich: I believe I don't know, because I'm not a US citizen, but I understand that healthcare is a huge aspect in regards to having a full time job. So when you leave the full time job, I'm guessing you lose that healthcare or those healthcare benefits. Is that one of the first things you have to look after when you go out on your own? Or do you go onto your wife's healthcare? How does that side of things work?

Charles Moll: I guess, fortunately and unfortunately, my nonprofit job didn't have health care. So it wasn't looking at our budget and things. It wasn't expense that we were looking or having to replace as much. It was just like, "Okay, this is already something we're paying for". You know, we didn't make enough to have to pay through the nose for it, but it was still, you know, we still had to pay a pretty penny, of course, but yeah, so thankfully and on, thankfully didn't have health care. So I think that made that transition a little less shocking. Of like, "Oh no, we need to find how to budget". You know, this much more a month, it was just like, "All right, well, this is already part of our budget. We know the numbers that we need to kind of hit". And yeah, my wife was working, I think she was part time, then she's in the process of going through grad school. And actually, she got into grad school that winter of, gosh, what that meant, 23 so, yeah, that definitely added this a bit of a stressor. But my main goal with my business when I started is like, "Man, I want to be able to put my wife through grad school so she can actually be fully present, not have to work on top of it, and I can provide for her through that". And thankfully have been able to do that.

Andrew Hellmich: Well, I guess you managed to support you and your wife, pay the health care all through the wedding photography and the part time job.

Charles Moll: Yep. Yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: Awesome, amazing.

Charles Moll: No, it was. I think it's one of those things, I still look back. I'm like, "How the heck did this even work?" But somehow, you know, she's got two months left to grad school, and it's like, "Holy cow". We're like, "We've almost done it. We've almost made it through this adventure". So, yeah, it's, it's been pretty exciting.

Andrew Hellmich: That's so good, man. Congratulations!

Charles Moll: Thanks.

Andrew Hellmich: That is no mean feat. That is amazing. Tell me a little bit about Bozeman, like I just pulled up on Google that I can see, like the first thing I saw was snowy mountains, and so it looks like it gets very cold there in winter. Is it a big population? Is that where all your clients are coming from? Can you shoot all year round? Tell me a little bit about the area that you're servicing.

Charles Moll: Bozeman is really interesting in that it's probably about 50,000 people. It's not a very like huge town in and of itself, but it's blown up since, I mean, it's been blown up for the past 15 years or more, but really since COVID and with the show Yellowstone, like Montana and Bozeman, has just become kind of this new destination, hot spot for folks. I started getting inquiries, and would talk to people and be like, "Oh, why'd you choose Montana?", they're like, "Well, we just love this show, Yellowstone". It's like, "Okay, that's not really even filmed in Bozeman, but I'll take it, like that's great". So it's really become a very luxury market very quickly. I mean, it's always been more high-end, but in really the past four years, the market has, there's been, like, a notable shift. I mean, I went to college in Bozeman, and when you know I was going to school, it's like you'd go downtown, and it was just a bunch of dirty ski bum cars, and now you go, and it's like BMWs, Teslas, and just a very huge demographic shift. I mean, I think the cost of the average home has honestly probably quadruple in the past few years. Like it's been insane, and I feel grateful to have been able to, like, get in and ride the wave, a little bit of the market changing, but Montana, as well, just being not that populous of a state, like I end up shooting the whole state, and not just the Bozeman area. So, you know, it's a big state. I drive a ton, but, yeah, I've been the furthest I've driven within the state so far. It's about six hours. So really photographed the whole state.

Andrew Hellmich: And, yeah, right, okay, so when I said in the intro, and, you know, we were chatting via email before I learned that the fact that you had moved a couple of times and had to start from scratch. So, I mean, is it really starting from scratch, or is it, were you able to keep the website, keep all the SEO and everything still really worked. You just had to relocate your, and where you lived.

Charles Moll: Yeah, it was a bit of both. It was, thankfully for the weddings, it didn't really matter so much where I lived. So I was able to keep my SEO. Bozeman was one of the better markets, so I really have left my website pretty much the same, which has helped to keep that growth just continuing. But it would be that thing of like, "Okay, I need to, like, build a whole new network of wedding vendors. I need to build a whole new network of other folks for", you know, having that diversification of income within photography, because I don't want to put all my eggs in the wedding basket as much as I love it. You know, they are big ticket items. It's like, you lose two or three weddings. It's like, shoot that's 10 to $20,000 depending on the wedding. So trying to find ways to diversify and really needing to always be networking when I get into those new communities, so it doesn't impact the wedding piece so much. For more my family photography and volume photography piece was always the starting over part.

Andrew Hellmich: Got it, okay. And then when you say volume photography, is that school sports teams? What is that?

Charles Moll: Yeah, primarily schools and sports teams, you know, anything from like a volleyball team to a whole school, just the generic head shots to doing, you know, like a whole sports league of, like, 300 kids. It's not really the most glamorous photography, but it's fun, and it's a good way to have that more consistent income, because, you know, photography is not something you can really always rely on. "Okay, I'm going to have this many clients for sure, for weddings a year". But with volume photography. It's like, once, you know, pick up a couple leagues, it was like, "All right, cool. Every year I'm going to have these folks on this general date", and can have a better idea of what each year's income will look like.

Andrew Hellmich: Absolutely. Yeah, you get a little bit more of that stability. Are you actually based in Bozeman now, or were you trying to rank for Bozeman while you were living outside of Bozeman?

Charles Moll: Yeah, so I initially tried to rank for Bozeman when I was in Bozeman, got to page one of Google with that, and then we moved to Missoula. We lived there for a year and a half, and we didn't really know where we were going to end up long term. So I didn't want to mess too much with my SEO. I built some venue pages in more that Missoula market, which is about three hours away from Bozeman, started networking with the venues around there, but then we ended up moving to another town, Helena, recently, which is about an hour and a half from Bozeman. So kind of split the difference between Missoula and Bozeman. And it's allowed me to kind of keep both markets that I've been able to build in. So not as much a total restart, but a little bit of just that challenge of like, you move to a new town, you gotta start over with those connections, but still can access those old connections as well. Just have to drive, you know, a couple hours.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, I've got it, I'm getting a better picture now. So what happens then, when a couple from, say, Bozeman, or someone that's a couple that's going to Bozeman to get married, they obviously, they see your website. They love the photos. They can see that you're based in Bozeman. They call you to meet up, and then you say, "Hey, I'm an hour away. I don't live in Bozeman". Do you get any sort of negative pushback from those couples?

Charles Moll: I really haven't. With my communication, I always just try to move it to a video call to keep it easy for people and just be like, "Hey, let's set up a video call". And honestly, probably 70% of my couples don't even live in the state, on their destination weddings coming to Montana, so it's pretty expected that it'll be a video call anyway, and then, even if they're local, a lot of folks don't want to worry about, "Oh no, we have to go meet with you. Set aside more time, the drive time and everything". People have been pretty excited about just doing video calls, and I've built all my collections so that travel and lodging is included, so it doesn't really even come up, where people ask "Where I'm based out of", and if they do, I'll tell them honestly, like, "Oh, I'm in Helena. And they go, "Cool, that's a great area", and that's about it, right?

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, I love it. This is sounding like a really cool business, and it sounds like I wouldn't say you sort of stumbled into a great location, because you obviously you want to live there, but it sounds like the clients are coming to you almost automatically, because you've been able to rank your website so well for the area, and people are coming looking for photographers in Bozeman or in Montana. Is that the way it is?

Charles Moll: The website has been huge for leads, and it's been awesome. I think what's cool too is people don't really know where in Montana they want to get married, and they don't really understand how big the state is. So people look at a Bozeman photographer for a town like Kalispell, which is six hours away, and in their mind, they're like, "Oh yeah, we'll just hire someone from Bozeman", if they like the work. But for whatever reason, like the size of Montana is really hard for folks to wrap their head around, because it's, it's a huge state, and, yeah, it's really cool. It's cool to be in a state that is getting more destination weddings and is slowly becoming, like this wedding hot spot a bit more.

Andrew Hellmich: Perfect for you, perfect. All right, I want to ask more about the marketing and the business side of things in just a second, I can see on your website, and we were chatting before we started recording that. You know, on your About Page, you've got 'Charles,' and then in brackets, you've got 'CJ'. So you go by CJ with your friends, but you took the business decision to market yourself as 'Charles Moll'. Why did you do that?

Charles Moll: Yeah, I did that, was pretty early on. I just thought 'Charles' sounded a bit more professional and wanting get more into the wedding space, I thought 'Charles' sounds more like a professional business where 'CJ 'sounds, I don't know, I thought of it sound more like a little kid or something. So I was like, "Oh, I'll go with Charles". But then I always run into the problem where I'll answer the phone, I'll be like, "Hey, this is CJ". And folks will be like, "Oh, is Charles available?", dang it. So I've just put that on my website, and have tried to get better at introducing myself as 'Charles'. I think I've almost gotten there, but that was a bit of a learning curve to, like, switch my name in my head, but yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: If you're hanging out with your buddies, your family, do they all call you. 'CJ'?

Charles Moll: Yeah, just about everyone does. My wife calls me 'Charles', a little bit. But outside of that, pretty much everyone calls me. CJ,

Andrew Hellmich: Okay. So knowing what you know now, after being in business for seven years and marketing yourself as 'Charles', would you do the same thing again, or would you do anything differently?

Charles Moll: I think I probably would leave it the same. Yeah, I think it, it does have a bit more professional of a sound to it. And I think also I like my logo and how that turned out. So I don't know if I would change it, just because I like my logo.

Andrew Hellmich: I love that. Now that is someone that's attached to their logo. I love that. Yeah, and I agree. I think Charles sounds more upmark, it does. I mean, particularly if you're trying to attract that kind of client.

Charles Moll: Yeah. And I think it's funny, because at the time, I wasn't, you know, I didn't know anything about the wedding industry, and I was just throwing spaghetti at a wall. And was like, "Yeah, that seems good". But you know, one of those happy accidents where I think it has allowed me to enter into some more professional spaces, and people feel very comfortable with me there and not feel like, "Oh, this is just some kid we've hired".

Andrew Hellmich: With the business where it is now. How many couples, do you have a target revenue, a target number of clients? Like, what are you trying to achieve year on year?

Charles Moll: My goal with weddings is 15 to 20 weddings a year. I'm not someone where I want to try and do a massive volume of weddings. Part of that's just with all the travel. I mean, last year, you know, spending every weekend driving three hours from Missoula to Bozeman, having to drive, you know, a day early to make sure I get there on time, if I had car issues or anything, I try to keep my number of weddings a bit lower so I can provide a better experience. 15 is like "I hit my wedding, like goals of where I'd like to be financially", and then if I hit 20, that's great. Obviously, I'd probably take more than 20 if people were asking for, like, a Tuesday in February, because not many people are wanting to book a wedding in February in Montana anyway. So just depends on the time of year, but really trying to keep my number of weddings less and just provide more of a high-end client experience to folks.

Andrew Hellmich: What is your average couple spending on their wedding photography?

Charles Moll: Last year, it was around, what would that be? Around 4400 and this year, I think we've moved it up to about 5400 so..

Andrew Hellmich: Oh, wow. Okay.

Charles Moll: Yeah, really trying to push the market as hard as I can to raise my prices. I feel like my wife and I also have a joke that I'm constantly redoing my collections. I'm constantly tweaking my pricing, and it's really just trying to find, like, that sweet spot of like, you know, "What do I need to include to be able to book clients?", you know, "Where are the sticking points in my collections", and seeing, you know, "How can I hit those higher and higher numbers that I'd like to hit?". And even, like, looking at this year, I have a client who booked me. I think it would have been in probably last, gosh, that would have been like last February, and it was one of my highest bookings. And I think it was around like 7-7400 and then I have another client just booked me, and I think they paid the same thing, but there was way less included in the package, and just was able to tweak some things to make the pricing flow a bit easier in the conversations and be able to sell a bit higher of a wedding.

Andrew Hellmich: Got it, all right. I'm gonna ask you a little bit more about that. Sounds like, are you sort of targeting $100,000 in turnover from weddings, and then anything above that's a bonus. And then you've got your volume and your portrait photography on top of that as cream. Is that how you look at it? Or is it a different way?

Charles Moll: Yeah, I would say something like that. Yeah. Really, the main thing I'm thinking through is if I can book those number of clients, which I guess would be around 100k and then really trying to fill in the gaps with that extra volume photography and that sort of stuff. Because, you know, I have had couples call off the wedding. I think this year, I had two couples call off their weddings. And it's like, even though it's great to be able to charge more for a wedding, really losing those clients is starting to, I just feel it a bit more than I did, you know, when I was charging..

Andrew Hellmich: Sure, that hurts, absolutely.

Charles Moll: Two grand a wedding. It was like, "Shoot". But now it's like, "Okay", you know, there does need to be that diversification, just for stability in the business.

Andrew Hellmich: Totally get it. So do your couples, do they pay you a retainer, a deposit that's non-refundable once they do book?

Charles Moll: Yep, yeah, I do $1,000 deposit to lock in their date, and then the full balance just being paid one month before the wedding. And that's worked pretty well. I'm a big saver, so, you know, we'll just kind of save through the year. Have a general idea at the end of like, 23 was able to see, like, "Okay, this is, you know, we have this amount in our bank account, we'll be pretty good through here, can budget based off of that,". Yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: What happens when a couple calls up to cancel? Do you keep that $1,000, is that non-refundable? Can they use it for family photography? Or what do you do?

Charles Moll: Yeah, generally, it's ends up just being non-refundable. And part of that is because a lot of the folks are out of state. If someone did want to use it for family photography, I would be super excited to let them do that. And then what I do say to folks is like, "If I am able to rebook your wedding date, I will be able to refund that". But it starts to get to this thing of like, you know, it's usually more last minute when folks cancel, and it's just pretty hard to rebook those dates. So..

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah

Charles Moll: Yeah. Unfortunately, I hate that I have to, like, keep the deposit, but it's also one of those things, like, man, yeah, if so many folks canceled, you know, there's the marketing expense for each client. There's any work that I've put into prepping that's like, I don't know, just one of those things to keep things a bit more safe.

Andrew Hellmich: Totally agree, it's business, isn't it? It's business.

Charles Moll: Yeah, it's a bummer, but yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: What did you do to tweak the prices that, you know allows you to, say, make more profit now or charge more, you know, like, I think you use an example earlier. You said you photographing this other couple. They're spending, paying, you know, $5,400 but they got less inclusions. What did you do there to tweak things?

Charles Moll: There were two, like, big changes that I made. The first one was last year. I noticed that I was having this sticking point. I think my starting wedding was 3400 I think it was six hours of photography, and then the next one, I can't remember how many it included. I think it's probably like eight or so. But then my next collection up had two photographers, an engagement session, and it had more coverage. But what I was finding is that because so many couples were out of state, the engagement session was becoming the sticking point of folks not wanting to book that collection because it had the engagement session. So for them, it was like, "Well, I guess we don't need this because it has that session, we don't want to pay for that". And then they talk themselves out of the second photographer, they talk themselves out of the additional coverage. And they'd just be like, "Yeah, we'll go with this, this seems like everything we have". But as soon as I dropped that second or that engagement session from that collection, it really opened up that package for a lot more folks. I do a four package method, so I'm really trying to book that, you know, second one from the top. So getting rid of that engagement session really opened that up. Just because of how the market is here, not many folks were wanting that. And then the other big thing that was a game changer this year is I made the transition to doing full day unlimited coverage for folks, rather than doing hourly coverage. So still doing the four collections I have, like my base wedding, which is six hours of coverage. And that's what I'll tell people on the phone. And then on the phone, I'll be like "Most folks, they'll choose to go with a, you know, full day unlimited package. Those start at either 49 or 54 I can't remember which it is off the top of my head". And then when we get into those conversations, you know, one of the packages has an album, another one has the two photographers and a little bit better of an album. And then there's the top package, which is, you know, everything in the kitchen sink, multiple albums and all that sort of stuff. And going with that four full day unlimited collection has really been awesome. I thought it would have hurt me not having hourly marks in people not wanting to get those higher packages, but for whatever reason like, that has allowed me to really provide just a huge amount more value to my clients, and then be willing to invest in my higher tier collections, which really surprised me.

Andrew Hellmich: That's cool. All right, so a couple of things, with the package that people were sort of steering clear of, because you had an engagement sheet, you didn't change the price, but you just took the engagement session out, and then more people were happy to book it. Is that the way it went?

 
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Andrew Hellmich: For sure. I agree with that 100%. Man, I've got one more thing I want to ask you about in regards to albums, before that, where is the best place for the listener to see more of your work? Where can they find you online? Where can they follow along with your journey?

Charles Moll: Yeah, and you can see my website. It's CharlesMoll.com M-O-L-L, and then on Instagram is Charles.Mall_ photo.

Andrew Hellmich: Got it. I'll have links to those in the show notes. So listener can easily find you there. In regards to albums, I mean, are they still popular these days with today's couples? And do you upsell additional pages after they've purchased a sort of an album that comes with a package?

Charles Moll: Yeah, I would say albums have been a massive selling point for couples. I really have built it as part of my brand. It's what people see on the website, and if people work with me, usually they're excited about getting an album, and partially that's because I'll post about them on social media. I've really tried to have like, a really high quality album. I use Blacksmith albums, and they're just like, these really sweet albums. And then I do a design, and I mean over, not in person, but a video call design with each couple so, you know, if they have an album and it includes 20 pages, we'll hop on a zoom call. It'll take, you know, two to three hours for them to go through everything. And then we'll build the album in real time, and that's been a great way to upsell folks a little bit, because kind of my thought process was, you know, I've already spent the whatever it is to secure this client in advertising. Being able to add that album the additional pages is a great way just to expand that sale a little bit more. And what's worked really well for me there is immediately after the wedding, I'll let them know, like, you know I'm designing or I'm going through all your photos, and when the photos are about finished up, I'll give them a call and say, like, "Hey, your images are about ready. Would love to set up a time to design your album". We set that usually two weeks or so after they should get their images, we'll hop on a call. Sometimes they've picked all the photos for their album. I usually encourage them to or we'll pick them during the Zoom call. And I've found that people pick way more photos than will fit in any album. Even if I tell them, like, "Hey, this album is only going to have 50 to 60 photos", they'll pick 120 plus. And then you just, you know, we'll design it in real time. We'll go page by page, and folks end up adding, usually, at least 10 pages. In the past, what I did is I would add, they would have to buy each page additionally, but I've started doing clumps of pages during the sale, and that's worked better. Just like, "Hey, 10 pages is, I can't remember, let's say, $400 and then 20 pages is 700", so it's a little, you know, they save a little bit if they add more pages. And that's been huge. I feel like confident that my album process has finally worked through the kinks. And it's actually, you know, folks are adding more and more, and there aren't those sticking points of, like, "Man, you're telling me I have to add $50 per page?", being able to see like, oh, you know, 20 pages costs x, and they see that at the beginning of the call. So there's no surprises. They know what it is. They feel comfortable with it. But it never worked when it was like, "All right, time to fork over $50 a page", it was just like, "Oh shit. This is gonna be, this is gonna be like, $1,100 or whatever". Instead of just seeing like, "Oh, it's gonna be $1,100, cool", because then they can kind of put that in their mind, and they feel comfortable with it.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. That's funny. It's the psychology of it, isn't it? Because, I mean, if I'm adding per page and seeing the dollars go up as certainly as a male, I'm thinking, "Oh my god, this is adding up real quickly". Whereas Linda, my wife, she'd be just looking at the photo, she wouldn't even be thinking about the price till the very end. But I'm looking at every page that gets added on. So yeah, the psychology of it, I can understand why that works. Charles, what software are you using to do your album designs in real time? And are you doing that over Google Meet as well?

Charles Moll: Yeah, I am. I use Fundy. It works really great. If we pick the photos during the call, I'll just say, like, "Hey, we're going to take a five minute break". They have their like, auto design feature, and that usually gets us at least started with the design. I'll make a couple tweaks. We end up changing every page so much anyways, that folks are pretty happy with it, kind of what I'll do is, once I get that base design made, we'll just go through it page by page. The first time we go through it, we will only look at the images and just say, like, "Okay, do you see any images you want to keep on this page", we're not looking at design, and we'll cut out everything they don't want, and then we start going through and fine tuning the design. And I found like that to be the way to save the most time. And then usually once people finalize that design, it gets really hard for them to say no to that page, because they have that like, emotional attachment of like, "No, we worked so hard. We got rid of all these photos. We worked together to make this page perfect". Because when I first started doing albums, I would pre-design the whole thing and then be like, "All right, cut out the pages you don't want", and it never really resulted in a sale. But when we started doing it in real time, people had this affinity towards their images and towards their pages, and then when they get their albums, they're super excited to actually experience it tangibly.

Andrew Hellmich: Unreal, and they're so invested, I can see that process would work. Well, how long does that normally take you for an album design like in general?

Charles Moll: In that real time? I think the calls are usually two, two and a half hours or so. I think my longest was about four, but that was, it was, gosh, it was a massive outlet, 80 or 90 pages, and we selected the photos during the call. So, I mean, it's one of those, like, occasionally it'll be these super long calls, but I don't know. I found it better than going back and forth and approved for, you know, over 15-30 emails. It just it's like, "Nope, we're going to set aside this time. We're going to do it. I'm going to let you know on the front end that this takes a lot of time". And I think because it takes a lot of time, it actually kind of has helped to actually sell the albums, because that two hour markets, and most people are pretty over it, and they're like, "I don't want to have to deal with getting rid of more pages. We'll just get the album". And then they're excited.

Andrew Hellmich: We'll just take it.

Charles Moll: I mean, honestly, it's, it's an heirloom, like, I don't know, yeah, at the time, it might seem like this huge expense, but 10 years from now, like having that album and that tangible reminder their wedding is going to go way further than, like, all your digitals on some album, on some hard drive somewhere. Part of my pitch always is like, "Man, when I started photography and got a CD of images, and that was cool, and I don't even own a disc drive anymore, but you know, we still have books. We still have all that stuff". And people really buy into that, and they really want that tangible piece. And it's like you invest so much in your wedding photos to be taken. It's like that expense of the album really, I think makes a lot of sense, because otherwise you spent all this money to never really experience these photos.

Andrew Hellmich: That's true. It's true, and it's also the only real record of the day, unless there's a videographer. But, yeah, the book's going to be around for generations, which is amazing, Charles. I love your process, and I love the way the business sounds. I love everything you've shared. You've been super generous. Thank you so much for coming on, for sharing everything you have. Congrats on your success and looking forward to following along and hearing about the future, great years ahead. Mate, thanks again.

Charles Moll: Thanks so much for having me. It was a blast. And yeah, I really appreciate it.

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