At Reinvesting

in Justice, Wesley Shackleford, deputy director of the Texas Indigent Defense Commission, talks about indigent defense, procedural

justice, and improving access to legal services for those who cannot afford it.

AVNI

MAJITHIA-SEJPAL: Hi. This is Avni Majithia-Sejpal and you’re listening to the New Thinking Podcast. I’m

at the Dallas City Hall with Wesley Shackelford, Deputy Director of the Texas Indigent Defense Commission in Austin.

We’re both here at Reinvesting in Justice, a conference that brings together a wide range of criminal justice

practitioners to discuss challenges and highlight innovative work being done in the field of Criminal Justice today.

Wesley is speaking on a panel about procedural justice a little bit later today, specifically as procedural justice

intersects with thinking about racial disparity within the justice system. Wesley, welcome to the New Thinking Podcast.

WESLEY SHACKELFORD: Thanks, Avni.

MAJITHIA-SEJPAL: Today’s big topic is Reinvesting

in Justice. How do you interpret that?

SHACKELFORD: Coming at it from the indigent defense world,

we’re looking to find new innovative ways to provide required indigent defense services in working with partners

in county government who are interested in trying new approaches.

MAJITHIA-SEJPAL: For the benefit

of our listeners, can you summarize what your panel is going to be about and also what you specifically will be talking

about?

SHACKELFORD: Sure. It’s a diverse panel, the Chief of Police for Dallas and he’s

going to be talking I think about community relations with the police department especially with communities of color

in Dallas. We also have panelists from my parent organization, the Office of Court Administration also based in Austin

and he’s going to be talking about procedural justice in the court system directly. I’ll be addressing

indigent defense systems and innovative programs that my agency’s been involved in creating.

MAJITHIA-SEJPAL:

Can you tell us a little bit about that?

SHACKELFORD: My organization provides grant funding to

counties to help support the provision of legal services to poor people charged with crimes. I’m going to be

talking in particular about our discretionary grant programs where we’re partnering with counties who are interested

in advancing their own systems through partnerships. Really moving in new directions from what I’ll call the

legacy system of court-appointed counsel systems, which is still the by far predominant form of provision of indigent

defense services in Texas. Some of the programs that we’ve been working on are what we call managed assigned

counsel programs. This is in communities where the courts who by statute are the ones in charge in Texas of determining

who is going to be appointed to represent indigent defendants. They make the assignments on individual cases to specific

attorneys.

They in some places have decided that that’s not something they want to do. We’ve

been supporting them in developing this new system. It really started back in 2009 in Lubbock County. The judges

there took the initiative to essentially spin off the management of the appointment list and the assignment of counsel

to a non-profit Bar-led organization. They started it with a subset of cases, mental health defendants and with some

case workers to support the attorneys in that work. After a couple of years in learning the new system and what the

issues were, they expanded it to the entire criminal court system. At this point in Lubbock all of the appointments

are managed by this Bar-led organization. The courts have nothing to do with the selection of counsel. The Bar panels

with the Chief Defender reviews all requests for support services like investigators, expert witnesses. They also

review and approve all the fee vouchers which is another of the powers that is given to the judges in this state.

That was such a success that Travis County in Austin has also now launched the same system. As of this year

the criminal court appointment system is managed by a non-profit Bar Association with Chief Defender, two Deputy

Defenders, an investigator and so forth. This has been a big sea change and we see it as an opportunity for counties

around the state who may not be ready to take over the entire system through the creation of, say, a public defender’s

office where you have staff attorneys managing the provision of counsel. These are still private attorneys but it

provides a lot of independence from the courts and it also provides an opportunity for more direct oversight and

quality control which are things that judges aren’t really in a position to do.

Chief Defenders

who manage the system are. They help staff cases if need be. They provide mentoring services and then they annually

review performance and provide pointers and training opportunities for all of the private assigned counsel attorneys

in the jurisdiction.

MAJITHIA-SEJPAL: That’s really interesting. You talked about the success

of the reform initiatives in Lubbock County. Can you elaborate on that? What kinds of results are you really seeing?

SHACKELFORD: I think it is the same attorneys but I would say the quality is better. They’ve created

mentoring programs both in Lubbock and now in Travis County which I think has the effect of enhancing the quality

of representation, bringing up the new generation. I think Lubbock, one of the challenges they faced was an aging

criminal defense attorney population retiring. It wasn’t really a process without a public defender’s office

to mentor and train young attorneys who wanted to go into the defense world. The old model of starting in a prosecutor’s

office, it wasn’t really attractive to a lot of young attorneys so they’ve been able to establish a full-scale

mentoring program under the auspices of the Managed Assigned Counsel program. I think that’s probably one of

the biggest enhancements.

MAJITHIA-SEJPAL: Why is procedural justice important according to you,

and how can it really speak to addressing issues that minorities face within the criminal justice system?

SHACKELFORD: For the criminal justice system to have credibility in the community or at large, there has

to be justice perceived. It’s both the appearance and the actuality of fairness in the proceedings. Really that’s

what the initiatives that we’ve been undertaking are trying to enhance. The court-appointed counsel system can

at least lead to the appearance that the defendant’s attorney may not have their interests aligned with the

defendant. You speak to defense attorneys and they’ll talk about the difficulties in establishing a good relationship

with their client when they may feel like the attorney was foisted on them and works for the judge. Even the prosecutor

when in fact, the prosecutor doesn’t have anything to do with it but there’s still that perception. The

procedure, if you will, of having the court assign it can lead to that and that undermines really the whole justice

system and really is at the root of the second initiative that I wanted to speak about.

That’s

a client choice initiative that’s underway in Comal County which is New Braunsfels. It’s a small to mid-size

community between San Antonio and Austin. They are for the first time in the United States have implemented a system

whereby the clients, the defendants who’ve been charged with a crime, get to select the attorney who will represent

them. This is the system that’s in place in common law countries across the world, England, Scotland, Australia.

It has been for many, many years but has never really been tried here. We got the idea from a Cato Institute report,

Free Market Principles from 2010 and Norman Lefstein which is one of the thought leaders in Indigent Offense nationally

from the Indiana University School of Law, has partnered with us to create the program.

There

was a very large stakeholder committee with a national oversight board to develop the model and it began operation

just at the beginning of this year. There’s going to be a full evaluation of course, but the main concept behind

it is that the interests of the clients are going to be aligned with their defense attorney rather than the defense

attorney’s interests are aligned with the client. The only way they’re going to get appointments in the

system is if a client chooses to have them represent them. It piggybacks on the court appointed system. These are

attorneys who have already been qualified and screened by the judges, which is the system we have, as being qualified,

have the requisite training and experience to provide representation. From that pool, that relatively large list,

basically all the criminal defense attorneys in the community, the clients can choose.

We found

so far that about three-quarters of them do elect to choose their own attorney. If they don’t maybe they don’t

have any knowledge, they will be assigned an attorney off the wheel as they always have been. It turns out that attorneys

do have reputations in the community and defendants can get information to make an informed decision. It’s really

no different than anyone else who need to buy a service be it hiring a plumber or an accountant or anything else.

You gather the information and you make a choice about who you think is going to provide you the best service.

The attorneys at least initially, have already reported that it’s much easier to establish a trusting

relationship with their client because they feel vested in the choice. This was the attorney they in fact chose to

represent them. It’s going to be really interesting to see what the results are. Does it improve the quality?

What are the perceptions of the clients in the community? What do the defense attorneys report? There’s a robust

evaluation by the Justice Management Institute that’s going to take a look at this and we’ll have a full

report in 2016.

MAJITHIA-SEJPAL: What are some of the challenges facing indigent defense today,

particularly as it intersects with procedural justice and issues of disparity?

SHACKELFORD: The

overarching issue and it may always be issue is inadequate resources. In public defender programs and assigned counsel

systems, if there isn’t enough funding to provide meaningful representation, then it’s very hard to have

procedural justice. You can have a system of attorneys who are there in name only who stand up with the defendant

while they plead guilty to the crime they’ve been charged with and accept the offer that the prosecutor makes.

We do have a system that’s based largely on guilty pleas. The challenge is when the defense attorneys don’t

have adequate time and resources to properly investigate the cases that you can undermine the belief that the system

is fair. If you’re in the defense community, if your attorney doesn’t have time to actually track down

the witness that may be able to attest to your defense, then you’re not going to have any trust in the system.

I think that’s probably the overarching consideration.

MAJITHIA-SEJPAL: Thanks for talking

to me today.

SHACKELFORD: Thanks for having me.

MAJITHIA-SEJPAL: I’m Avni

Majithia-Sejpal and I’ve been talking to Wesley Shackelford at Reinvesting in Justice. To listen to more New

Thinking Podcasts or to learn more about our work, you can visit our website at www.courtinnovation.org. Thanks for

listening.