Justice Shorter returns as a guest-host for this episode, where we interview anti-human trafficking activists Ali Chiu and Susan Kahan. Then NDRN alumnus Ian Watlington joins us to discuss his experiences with inaccessible taxi cabs in DC. For a full transcript, check out our website.

DCist article: https://dcist.com/story/22/12/06/d-c-is-falling-short-of-its-taxi-accessibility-requirements-what-went-wrong/

Transcript:

Michelle Bishop:

Happy New Year everyone. Welcome back to a whole brand new year of the PandA Pod. Can we get like a round of applause, a drum roll, something? We’re back for another year.

Justice Shorter:

Hey, congratulations.

Stephanie Flynt:

We’ve got to give the people what they want and what they want is more PandA Pod.

Michelle Bishop:

Woo, that’s that’s absolutely the truth. And it’s because of your amazing host, oh my goodness. And we have a special surprise for the hosting team today. I am Michelle Bishop, voter access and engagement manager and one of your many hosts at the PandA Pod.

Stephanie Flynt:

And I’m Stephanie Flint, public policy Analyst at NDRN. And I’m also one of your hosts for the PandA Pod and…

Michelle Bishop:

Our guest host today is an OG. Introduce yourself.

Justice Shorter:

I am indeed. I am Justice Shorter, National Disaster Protection Advisor at the National Disability Rights Network. Hello, ladies.

Stephanie Flynt:

Hello, hello.

Michelle Bishop:

Hello. And of course, our faithful producer, Jack Rosen, who I really hope has the button where you bleep out people since Justice is back.

Justice Shorter:

First off, let me be clear, we’re not bleeping out Justice, we’re bleeping out the profane words that Justice often uses. There’s the very stark difference. I want to be very clear about it.

Stephanie Flynt:

Michelle, some sort of audio meme is going to come out of what you just said and it’s basically just going to be ‘bleeping out Justice’ and it’s just going to be viral on the internet now.

Jack Rosen:

I kind of want to edit it so it starts with Justice saying, let me be clear that’s just a long bleep.

Stephanie Flynt:

No, just be like, let me be and then just bleep things from there.

Justice Shorter:

It’s one way to go.

Michelle Bishop:

Just pick random words in every sentence Justice says and bleep them out for no reason. So it sounds like she said something terrible.

Justice Shorter:

Yeah, let me just veto that option right out the gate, there are more than enough terrible words that will likely slip out and you’ll have more than enough content. Leave all of the sweet and gentle and non-harmful words that I say, let them be. The others will stand on their own.

Stephanie Flynt:

If it makes you feel any better, they have been threatening to bleep out every single time I say chicken nugget. That makes very sad-

Justice Shorter:

[inaudible 00:02:20].

Stephanie Flynt:

I know, oh my gosh. Okay-

Justice Shorter:

No, I’m joking.

Stephanie Flynt:

No, fake news, fake news. We’re taking a poll.

Michelle Bishop:

We’re probably going to make a bleep button that is Stephanie saying chicken nugget, actually.

Stephanie Flynt:

There we go

Justice Shorter:

Concerning on so many levels.

Michelle Bishop:

More [inaudible 00:02:34]. Justice you see what it’s been like for me while you’ve been on hiatus, I need for you to come back.

Justice Shorter:

Awesome.

Michelle Bishop:

And the name of this episode is definitely bleeping out Justice.

Justice Shorter:

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, taking Justice down every time, very concerning.

Stephanie Flynt:

Okay, let’s be clear, nobody can take Justice down, okay?

Justice Shorter:

Mm-hmm, let them know. Let them know, say it with your chest, Stephanie, say it with your whole chest.

Michelle Bishop:

Nobody puts Justice in the corner.

Stephanie Flynt:

No.

Justice Shorter:

You know what’s interesting? Quick side note, is that I was working at a disaster several years ago and one of the division leads for another project called my sighted assistant, my handler. It was like, “I think that’s Justice’s handler.” And I had to step in and say, “Nobody handles Justice. This is my sighted assistant and he is with me to support me with whatever visual needs that I may have at the moment.” But yes, I had to very much let him know who I was and what could and could not be said in that regard.

Michelle Bishop:

Nobody can handle Justice. That’s accurate, nobody can handle Justice.

Justice Shorter:

It’s a thing, people slip in all types of random words and phrasings when it comes to people with disabilities, not recognizing how coded and how, in some cases, just purely disrespectful it can be.

Michelle Bishop:

Accurate.

Stephanie Flynt:

For real though.

Michelle Bishop:

Jack, hit us with some news stories. What’s been going on in the network these days?

Jack Rosen:

On July 26th, the 32nd anniversary of the Americans with Disabilities Act, leaders of Buffalo’s disability community held a news conference and called on their city to respect their rights under federal law. “I’m ashamed to say that Buffalo does not have an ADA coordinator as of yet,” said Bj Stasio, Buffalo resident and co-vice president of the South Advocacy Association of New York State, which represents and is run by people with developmental disabilities.

Michelle Bishop:

Well this is an ongoing issue for the state of New York in general, I know. It’s horrific that Buffalo doesn’t have an ADA coordinator, but if you all remember back in 2020, at the height of the pandemic, Disability Rights New York actually had to file a suit against the governor at the time, Andrew Cuomo, because they weren’t using ASL interpreters during the pandemic briefings. What exactly were deaf people supposed to do?

Stephanie Flynt:

Oh man, I remember that.

Justice Shorter:

So do I, we actually worked very diligently to make sure that the strategies that they were evoking was shared across the entire network. And we did that by a COVID Central, which was an internal platform that myself and Tina, who used to work on our communications team and a couple of other folks were really instrumental in getting off the ground. But that was really an information portal and center to provide rapid responses in terms of strategy and tactics that were happening all over the country, so that P&As didn’t have to really reinvent the wheel, but could really utilize some of the techniques that folks were already having success with in different parts of the country. That case that you just mentioned was one of them.

Stephanie Flynt:

Yeah. Jack, do you have like a boo button? Are we allowed to boo people on this podcast or are we trying to be nice?

Jack Rosen:

You can just go ahead and boo, I can-

Stephanie Flynt:

Boo, I don’t like people.

Michelle Bishop:

Okay, what else do we have in the news these days?

Jack Rosen:

Also in the news from the Citizen Times, landmark child welfare suit targets North Carolina after USA Today Network investigation. Our affiliates, Disability Rights North Carolina are part of a lawsuit claiming that their state is failing the needs of children in facilities, alleging unfortunately, abuse at those facilities and trying to get these kids the home and community based services that they need.

Michelle Bishop:

This one I know is particularly heinous also because I believe it involves kids that are in the foster care system, who don’t have a parent right outside the facility advocating for their rights and for their needs.

Justice Shorter:

That’s right, Michelle. There is just so much to be concerned about when we think about America’s foster care system, especially as it pertains to young people and children with disabilities. We hear about so many different stories of neglect and abuse. And so this is, of course, just yet another way that we need to remain vigilant and make sure that as far as we’re concerned as a network, that we stay on top of our goal and our mission to protect the rights of people with disabilities. And of course, that is inclusive of children and young people with disabilities as well.

Michelle Bishop:

And shout out to Disability Rights North Carolina. This one is actually a federal class action lawsuit. Can’t imagine what a heavy lift that must be. But thank you Disability Rights North Carolina for the work that you’re doing.

Stephanie Flynt:

Yes. As I like to say, y’all are killing the game.

Justice Shorter:

That’s right. They have such strong advocates and attorneys. They’re just simply stellar, superstar team over at Disability Rights North Carolina. I love them dearly. Shout out to you guys.

Michelle Bishop:

Jack, hit us with one more news story. Do we have any victories in the news lately?

Jack Rosen:

We do. From 2 News, WDTN, Huber Heights family wins lawsuit against state agency regarding help for son’s autism. In Dayton, Ohio, a federal judge ruled in favor of a Huber Heights family who claimed a state agency denied their son support for his autism spectrum disorder. The son reached out to Opportunities for Ohioans with Developmental Disabilities for support. OOD is a state agency that provides resources for people living with disabilities, including VR services to help prepare for employment. While the agency provide him with supplies and computer, it denied him money for a program that would help him with college life.

Michelle Bishop:

Yeah, that’s interesting. They talked about how there can’t just really be like a blanket policy that says there are certain types of programs that we just don’t fund for college and university students as if people with disabilities don’t go to college.

Stephanie Flynt:

Right, and as if they can’t be successful in and out of college. Let me tell you, I have met many individuals with intellectual developmental disabilities who have gone to four year universities and they have done so amazingly well. And so to not offer these individuals funding to do these things that are going to ultimately enrich their life, it’s not okay.

Michelle Bishop:

I will say, quick shout out to Kevin Truitt at Disability Rights Ohio, who is a litigating boss. We see you, we see the work that you’re doing, Kevin, keep it up. And also, more importantly, to this student, Hunter, who is going to do big things. He’s going to go to college, he’s going to have a career. Actually, I think I remember from this article, he’s into design. So Hunter, if you’re listening, hit up Jack. He’s in our communications department.

Stephanie Flynt:

Yes, absolutely. And I’m just really glad that this ended on a good note. I’m super excited for this student and I wish them all the best in their future endeavors. This is really exciting.

Michelle Bishop:

All right, thanks, Jack. Well let’s get into our main story for today, shall we?

Stephanie Flynt:

Let’s do it.

Jack Rosen:

We have some great guests today. Michelle, do you want to tell the folks who we have on?

Michelle Bishop:

Absolutely. So today we’re going to be talking to Susan Kahan and Ali Chiu. Susan is a member of the clinical staff at the University of Illinois at Chicago’s Institute on Disability and Human Development, where she provides individual and group therapy for children and adults on a broad range of mental health, developmental and behavioral concerns, specializing in trauma. Susan provides consultation, actually, around the country on disability rights related topics, including trauma and trauma informed care, sexual abuse and human trafficking, sexuality and healthy relationships and crisis intervention. In addition, Susan is certified in forensic interviewing with additional certification in interviewing people with disabilities and people who do not speak. Susan provides training for law enforcement, trauma centers, disability agencies, professionals, schools and families.

We’ll also be chatting with Ali. Ali Chiu has been a public service provider since 1999. Her focus has been on anti-violence, domestic violence, gender-based violence, sexual exploitation, and human trafficking specifically. She also has been an advocate on issues relating to seniors and people with disabilities. She is currently the Elder Abuse Prevention Program supervisor at the Institute on Aging in San Francisco and is a member of the AAPI Elder Abuse Steering Committee with San Francisco District Attorney Victim Services Division. Ali holds one of the community seats as a member of the Family Violence Council of San Francisco and is also a steering committee member of the National Human Trafficking and Disabilities Working Group. Ali is a woman of color, an immigrant, a single mother, a domestic violence survivor, and a person with a disability. Justice, this national human trafficking and disabilities working group, is this how we know Susan and Ali? Is that what you’re participating in?

Justice Shorter:

It is indeed. I’ve been serving on this steering committee since 2019 and I have had the distinct privilege and pleasure of meeting some fantastic advocates all across the country, who do this work alongside survivors of human trafficking with disabilities. It is an issue that does not get enough attention and that is why we’re airing this episode this month because January is human trafficking prevention month across the country. And so we want to make sure that this issue remains on your minds, in your hearts, and of course, on your lips as we continue to speak out and hopefully bring about a difference and a change in the lives of the people who are the most impacted. And that of course, are individuals with disabilities who are at risk of being trafficked or who are on the other end and who have survived a trafficking experience.

Michelle Bishop:

So January is actually National Human Trafficking Prevention Month. If you all didn’t know that because I just learned that in the making of this episode. Justice, you lead our work on anti-human trafficking. Justice, is that true? Did I just make that up? I think you lead our work on anti-human trafficking-

Justice Shorter:

You did not make that up. I have been working in this area since 2019 for NDRN. And it started off with one of our fabulous P&As asking me a question about the likelihood of individuals with disabilities being trafficked post-disaster, given all of the continuous and maybe heightened risk factors that people with disabilities have to face, like the loss of support systems, being displaced, all of these different unique risk factors that are often heightened and they’re exacerbated during disasters. And so they had questions about it, wanted to talk about it. There was a whole event that was held by their Department of Health and other agencies and organizations and I said, “This is something that we need to be focused on, at least as it relates to the portfolio that I had been tasked with at NDRN.” And so that is how it became a steadfast portion of the work that I do. And as a result, I started working with the National Human Trafficking and Disability Work Group, which is where I met our wonderful guests who we have on the show today.

Stephanie Flynt:

We’re excited to have you guys on the show. So I guess my first question for you is, or our first question for you is just talking about who you are and also too, just talking about how you became involved in such a specific issue, human trafficking of people with disabilities is something kind of like Michelle was saying earlier, I had no idea that January was National Human Trafficking Prevention Month. And it’s something that again, you just don’t think about on a daily basis. And I feel like it’s definitely something that we need to bring attention to.

Justice Shorter:

And so, Susan, can we start with you? A little bit more about your work and how you got started in the field of human trafficking.

Susan Kahan:

My name is Susan Kahan. I work at the University of Illinois at Chicago at the Institute on Disability and Human Development. And in that context, I work as a mental health therapist in the clinic, the Developmental Disabilities Family Clinic at the institute. My area of specialty is trauma, so I work with children through adults, all of them have a developmental disability. And most of my clients have experienced some significant trauma. Because of that work in the area of trauma, I developed a collaboration with the Chicago Children’s Advocacy Center.

The Children’s Advocacy Centers, there’s one in almost every county around the country, they coordinate the investigation of case of sexual abuse of children and life threatening physical abuse of children under the age of three. So in the context of my collaboration with them, issues related to both sexual abuse of children, but also trafficking arose. I also do a lot of consultation and training for law enforcement and with the state’s attorney’s office here in Chicago. And I will be called in occasionally to consult with them on cases that involve trafficking of individuals, both adults and children with disabilities. So it was through the mental health trauma field that I ended up in this area of work.

Justice Shorter:

Fantastic, appreciation, Susan. And Ali, over to you.

Ali Chiu:

Sure. Hi, this is Ali Chiu. I actually started it, I was a volunteer at one of the domestic violence shelters in San Francisco back in 2000. I’m not sure if people remember that big, big case happened in Berkeley. There was a group that trafficked a whole bunch of people and people die in this restaurant and that’s when I was volunteering at the shelter at that time. And so I started to do some work as a language advocate because I speak Mandarin. So different situation happen and I would accompany case manager to go to either the Immigration Center or the court or whatever to interpret.

And that’s how I got started to do really groundwork. And over the years, in between doing domestic violence as an anti domestic violence advocate, I would do take cases, mostly Mandarin speaking, sometimes Cantonese speaking or Spanish speaking and working with interpreters. So that’s how I started it. And as a person with disability, I got into a lot of different advocacy work and then bring that intersection together like, whoa, what’s going on? Why are we not talking about this? So I got involved with NHTDWG, the National Human Trafficking and Disabilities Working Group. I see when they started it and so here I am.

Michelle Bishop:

Thank you so much for that. Both of you have so much experience around these issues. We’re excited to have you on the podcast today. I was wondering, as we get into this conversation, if you can just help break down for us what makes human trafficking different from other types of labor and sex crimes?

Ali Chiu:

When I start learning about human trafficking, first thing what I learned is there’s a lot of similarity to the dynamic of the domestic violence. There’s a power and control, but with the human trafficking, it’s kind of like wider net. There’s a power and control, there’s also a lot of different complicated stuff. And what I learned first is that to stop human trafficking, and I hope and I’m not jumping ahead too much, is really hard because there’s a lot of money and stuff going on. And I think that that’s one of the biggest obstacle we have is there’s a lot of international stuff. There’s a lot of, within US, things happening. Going a little deeper is when we look at human trafficking in the area with people with disabilities, it’s extra hard because there’s different dynamic we’re looking at that people are being taken advantage because of their disability. And I’ll stop right there, maybe Susan-

Susan Kahan:

Yeah, this is Susan. I think all of the elements of the dynamics of trafficking that Ali talked about are really important. Some of the other ones that I think about are when we’re talking about what is the difference? Are there differences between sexual abuse and sex trafficking, for example? As a mental health person, I’m always interested in the psychological dynamics of things like trafficking or sexual abuse, and how do we help survivors break away from the dynamics that were created in the contact of abuse or trafficking? One of the hard parts about trafficking, and it can happen in sexual abuse as well, but it can be very pervasive and kind of a stranglehold for survivors, something we talk about as trauma bonds. Many survivors of trafficking don’t even realize necessarily that they’re being trafficked.

That what’s happening to them is not okay, that they deserve better, they deserve more, and that the trafficker does not necessarily have their best interest at heart. One of the things that can draw people into trafficking is a need to feel needed. A need to feel like you belong to a group or that you are loved in a relationship. And particularly in sex trafficking, we see a bond that can develop between the person being trafficked and the trafficker where the trafficker is able to man manipulate the thinking of the person being trafficked to convince them that I’m your boyfriend, I love you. And if you love me, you’ll help, you’ll help out by bringing money into this relationship. Or if it’s a group of women, this is our family. You owe the family, the family provides you love and protection and belonging, and in exchange you help support the family just like other members of the family help support them.

And the result of that is that it can be, at times, very difficult to get somebody out of a trafficking situation. A number of the organizations I work with, particularly those that are involved with youth who have been trafficked, the biggest problem they have is the youth returning to the trafficking situation. They’ll bring them in for survivor services, sometimes even residential services, but the youth will take opportunities to leave and go back to a group where they felt like they belonged. Even if the way that they were treated or the way that they were made to feel like they belong from an outside perspective looks intolerable. But to them, to the person being trafficked, sometimes it feels more tolerable than the situation that they came out of.

Ali Chiu:

I would like to add onto that too, that on top of that, there’s a lot of threat. They can’t leave because they are threats back in their country or wherever they are and they can’t leave because of that. I think it’s so important to understand that extra dynamic there, that there’s a lot of threats. Some of the cases I’ve work on, we interviewed them and they would have a uniform stories, one story. And they wouldn’t tell us what’s going on for real. They would tell us something that’s complete… We would just hear. And that the trust, to build that trust is really, really difficult. And I have to say that especially when you speak their language, they don’t trust you because those people might be the same people that trafficked you, so they don’t want to trust you. And sometimes I going in, they go, “I don’t want to talk to you, I don’t want to tell you.” So I just want to add that dynamic in.

Stephanie Flynt:

Yeah, and I think that that’s super important to think about. Hearing both of you talk about this and the dynamics there, it almost sounds like there’s a mix. A mix of people who understand what’s going on and are afraid to leave and don’t know how to get out. And then people who have no idea that they’re being trafficked because of the things that the traffickers are saying and they think that it’s normal. And to me, that is just so heartbreaking. And so I guess that leads me into the next question of just talking about some of the key considerations. What are some of the key considerations that advocates should be thinking about when it comes to these efforts of preventing trafficking of people with disabilities?

Susan Kahan:

This is Susan. I think one of the most important keys to prevention for trafficking of people with disabilities is raising awareness that it happens. I think when I’m interacting with disability organizations and talking about trafficking, very often the response that I get is that, “Oh my gosh, I never thought of that. I never considered that as something that could be going on for some of the people we work with.” And so the foundation to prevention of trafficking of individuals with disabilities is recognizing that it is an issue, that it is something we always need to be considering when working with people and recognizing signs that somebody might be experiencing abuse of any kind, whether it’s labor or sexual abuse or physical abuse, that one possibility is a traveling scenario and keeping that in [inaudible 00:24:48].

Ali Chiu:

I think that one thing, as Susan say, is doing those outreach and doing those education. I think that one point I wanted to say, and this is we’re doing a podcast, to really let folks know that, hey, when someone take advantage of a person with disability, their benefit and make them work, make them do things, that’s human trafficking. We have to educate and support service providers in understanding that fact. A lot of disabilities organization, a lot of organization in fact, don’t know that, hey, wait a minute, this is human trafficking.

Someone who make friend, befriend. I have a case where a woman, she’s an older woman and her daughter actually took her SSI check and make her mother do this and that. And her mother was on the street, I found her on the street. We work with her and her mother had, she passed away a year ago, had intellectual disability. And we work with, “Oh yeah, my daughter…” So that’s not okay. Her mother would do different thing to survive and her daughter held that SSI check, held her food stamp card. So just really doing that outreach, doing that education to prevent that happening.

Justice Shorter:

I want to pick up on a couple of threads that have been mentioned here. Ali, you mentioned how this is such a relevant topic and issue as it relates to individuals who come to this country to work when we’re thinking about labor trafficking. And Susan, you mentioned the sexual abuse and exploitation that tends to happen and the thread that runs. And Ali, you’ve also mentioned that the sexual abuse, the sex trafficking piece as well, the thread that runs between all of them, and we talked about this a little bit at the top of the podcast, we’re thinking about this in terms of exploitation that’s happening, coercion that’s happening, as well as money that’s taking place as well, whether it’s being the withholding of funds and financial resources that people need to survive, unless they commit to various sexual acts or certain labor that people are requiring of them in order to receive the financial resources or supports that they’re very well entitled to or receiving mother sources. So that is a piece of it.

And then there’s also these other complicated dynamics related to family or familial connections and friendships or relationships with other partners. And I also want to throw in their prospective caregivers, and you guys mentioned this as well, but I just want to highlight that as a particular issue of concern, especially as it relates to individuals with disabilities or older adults, people with mental health considerations as well. If you have someone who is withholding care or withholding access to prescriptions or medications or access to treatment, unless one commits a sexual favor, unless someone is able to commit their labor in some way, shape or form, then that also brings us into this conversation around trafficking. Some people look at this with a very detached and dissociative type of lens whereby we only think about trafficking in terms of something that happens in different countries. Or if there is no real movement happening, if someone didn’t take you over state lines or over the border, then it’s not classified as trafficking.

And you two have certainly alleviated those illusions in saying that that is not true, but it can happen in a number of different contexts and situations, circumstances that people may find themselves in. So we appreciate you doing that. And there’s a question here that I would love to ask. And Michelle, I know you have a similar thought, so I’ll let you come in here and dovetail me. But I work on disaster and crises of all sort, and I’m always concerned about return and recovery and what that looks like in a disaster context. But I’m also very keenly interested in what that looks like in terms of survivors being able to return to their community if they have been taken someplace else or if they’re just in a survivor program to support them in their recovery, what that looks like for them. Often we think about this in terms of the response, let’s get people out. But what does that look like in terms of their long-term recovery and their return to their community or to some semblance of wellbeing. Michelle, I don’t know if you wanted to tack anything onto that question as well.

Michelle Bishop:

Honestly, Justice, I was going to tell you to take that one from me, so that was perfect.

Justice Shorter:

So in that case, I’ll shoot it over to Susan. Would you like to kick us off? What does return and recovery, what does that look like after someone has been taken out of a trafficking situation? What does the process of recovery, healing, what does all of that look like?

Susan Kahan:

This is Susan. I think one of the most important things to recognize is that the primary group that I work with are individuals with developmental disabilities. And there are a lot of myths and misperceptions about the ability of people with developmental disabilities and intellectual disabilities to benefit from therapy and to benefit from the kind of interventions that we provide. Or even that somebody with an intellectual disability might experience trauma in the same way the rest of us do. There’s kind of a sense like, oh, they don’t even know what happened. They’re fine, they’ll be fine. Not in my experience. People know when their body’s been hurt, people know when somebody else has controlled them. They may not be able to voice it in a way that we can hear or we can understand, but people will communicate distress and they will communicate their trauma in ways that we have to learn to understand and not to dismiss.

I’m a mental health professional, so of course for me, a big piece of the process of, I’m going to just refer to it as recovery right now for lack of a better term, is the idea that we have to provide appropriate and sufficient mental health support, trauma support. We have to provide accessible survivor services, whether it’s physically accessible or accessible in terms of how somebody communicates. We have to trust that people are benefiting from the support that we give it them if we give it in a way that is accessible to them. So for me, what is the part of the process for having somebody resume a life outside of trafficking? A big part of it is the support that the rest of us, that we as a society, are able to provide individuals with disabilities, whether they’re developmental disabilities or other disabilities, in a way that is accessible to them. That’s an essential piece of that process of coming out of a trafficking situation.

Justice Shorter:

And Ali, your thoughts?

Ali Chiu:

Sure. I think that Susan say a lot of stuff that I wanted to say too, is that support extending to mental health and service providers. I think that one key thing is really understand how they were put into that place. Not to blame the victim of course, but there may be reasons that poverty and different situation led to that, that they’ve been trafficked. And understanding that and to really create that network, build trust, rebuild that trust with them. Maybe there was somebody we could connect them with. Maybe there’s something that we could support them with.

If there’s a immigration issue, if there’s a benefit issue. If there’s any issues that we could think of, reconnect and empower them to let them know that you know what? We can do this together, you can do this together. And that’s one way to support them in that way. Support is so important, network is so important. I don’t think anybody could survive by themselves. So recovery, like Susan say, we don’t have a better word for that yet. But in that process, it’s really having that support, having that network to help rebuild that environment for them.

Susan Kahan:

This is Susan. I think the other piece that we might think about, particularly in light of what Ali said, is thinking about how are we creating environments that people return to? Are they trauma informed? And so getting at a trauma informed environment embodies some of the elements that Ali was talking about. Safety, people need to be in an environment where they feel both physically and emotionally safe, control, people need to feel empowered. They need to feel like they have control over their own lives, over decisions, that they are not being controlled, but that they act in their lives. Life doesn’t act on them.

And so the third element that we need to make sure is present in the environments that we’re creating is that people feel connected, connected in a healthy way. Because often, they’re coming out of a situation where they may have felt connected, but the connections were distorted, and the connections were based on unhealthy dynamics. We need to provide that sense that there can be a different kind of relationship with other people that involves trust and involves safety. So when we’re creating environments that involve safety, control and connection, we are creating healing environments, environments where people will hopefully be able to benefit from the kinds of services that we can provide when we provide them in an accessible way.

Stephanie Flynt:

One of the things that I would be curious to know, just based on our conversation so far, is just talking about what inclusive resources exist in order to help people with disabilities who have been trafficked. Again, we’ve talked a whole lot about preventing trafficking and a whole lot about trafficking in general as it pertains to people with disabilities. And so just wondering what resources are out there.

Ali Chiu:

This is Ali. I like to take this real quick. I wanted to maybe redirect a little bit. I am particularly not excited to hear the word help people with disability. I think that what I like to see is really empower folks with disabilities. And biggest resource out there is really having and seeing people with disability as leaders in this field. We have to do that. We have to get people with disability involved with decision-making and involved with those resources. There are a lot of independent resource center around the country. There are a lot of advocacy groups in the country. Those are groups that we need to be speaking with when we do this type of work and really connect. And that’s why I really am excited to work with National Human Trafficking and Disabilities Working Group, is we connect different people in different field together to work together. So that would be my quick and so for that.

Stephanie Flynt:

Yeah, absolutely. And I just want to say, before we get to Susan’s comments, that I really do appreciate you clarifying what terminology here is most appropriate for this situation. So thank you so much for that. One of the things that we really do aim to do on this podcast is educate ourselves, but of course, also educate our listeners. So thank you so much for that.

Susan Kahan:

This is Susan. Piggybacking a little bit on what Ali said, I think that one of the issues that has come up in the context of the work that we do with the National Human Trafficking and Disabilities Work Group is a lack of accessible services and the fact that a lot of survivor services, as they exist currently, are not accessible, whether it’s for people with mobility issues, people with sensory disabilities, or people with intellectual or developmental disabilities. And that’s a big part of the work that we do, is trying to provide training, education, and support for organizations who are trying to become more accessible. But a big, big piece of that change is raising the voices of survivors, raising the voices of people with disabilities who are leaders in this field, recognizing intersections with other groups, Justice, there’s so much really great work and intersection of racial justice and disability justice and recognizing how that comes together when we’re trying to create accessible services or support agencies as they become more accessible.

Stephanie Flynt:

Yeah, absolutely, so, so important. And I love that you talked about the raising the voices concept, people with disabilities, raising their voices and allies helping to raise their voices. And honestly, I think that that is a perfect segue into Justice’s next thought or question.

Justice Shorter:

My question is simply this, what messages of hope and solidarity do you two have to survivors of human trafficking, who have disabilities? Any messages, any final thoughts or final comments of hope and solidarity speaking directly to them. And Ali, can we start with you?

Ali Chiu:

Sure, yeah. If you are listening to this podcast, I want you to know that you are not alone and you have friends, you have friends out there. Communicate with others, talk to others, and you will be safe. I know it could be a long journey, but when we work together, we’ll get there. That’s a simple thing to say and I am somebody who have done this work for a little bit, I’m still learning. And when we do work on the ground, face to face with folks, you see people’s faces, you sense their energy and people crave for connection. And that’s the thing that we take that and say, okay, we can take that connection and build trust on that.

That’s really, really important to build that trust. And once you build that trust, we could empower folks to come out. Sometimes it take a while, like Susan say, people do return. Statistically for domestic violence survivors. It takes them more than seven time to leave that relationship. And with the complication factor in dynamic of human trafficking, it’s going to take longer sometimes. And I don’t want to say that’s okay, but I want to say that we have to meet people where they are. So it’s a long process, but we have to be patient, we have to have that respect, we have to have that sense that, okay, we’re going to build that trust. And hopefully, sooner rather later, you will trust me and we can do this together. We can get everyone to safety.

Justice Shorter:

Gorgeous thoughts there, Ali, appreciation. Susan, you?

Susan Kahan:

The message that I’d like to share is if people are listening, who are in situations where they feel unsafe or where they’re being treated or exploited for their body, for their money, for their labor, I think what I’d like them to know is that they deserve better, they deserve more. That they have value and their value extends beyond what they can provide for someone else. They have value as a human and we see you and we’re here to support you. We’re here to extend a hand, as Ali said, there are friends out there for you. There are groups who will support you, who can provide a trusting, safe environment to help you achieve the life that you want to see for yourself. I think that that’s the message that I would most like to share.

Justice Shorter:

Michelle, any final words from you or any last thoughts here?

Michelle Bishop:

I just want to say thank you both so much. This is such a critical issue. I think that it’s largely misunderstood. I know that this episode is going to be really impactful for our network, but I also appreciate that both of you are really busy professionals who do this work on top of the regular work that you have every day. So thank you so much just for making the time to join us today. We really appreciate it.

Ali Chiu:

Thank you.

Susan Kahan:

Thank you so much for having us.

Michelle Bishop:

So for today’s spotlight story, I’m going to start off by asking our co-host, Stephanie, to please restrain herself because I know how worked up she gets about these issues. Stephanie, are you ready? Have you done some deep breathing exercises?

Stephanie Flynt:

I have been working on my meditation. I’m on step three of 10 with my meditation guide.

Michelle Bishop:

Not exactly 10, but maybe ready for the spotlight story today.

Stephanie Flynt:

I guess I’m ready for the spotlight story. And we have a very special guest today that we are super excited about.

Michelle Bishop:

A personal favorite of all the hosts of the podcast.

Ian Watlington:

Well thanks, guys.

Michelle Bishop:

If you don’t know that voice, that is Ian Watlington. He is a former staff member at NDRN who has moved on to bigger and better things. But is a advocate for disability rights and accessibility around the DC area, where we’re broadcasting from, who came to talk to us today about his experiences with taxi cabs and their failure to be accessible for people with disabilities. Ian, thank you so much for jumping on.

Ian Watlington:

It’s really good to be here and good to hear your voices again. And yeah, taxis and me are like oil and water, so that’s partly why I’m here to talk about it.

Michelle Bishop:

And unlike Stephanie, you don’t have a service dog. We did a spotlight story on a previous episode where Stephanie gets denied rides, not that this is okay, frequently because she has a service dog and they won’t put a dog in the car, what’s going-

Stephanie Flynt:

Because of my blindness, but that’s neither here nor there.

Michelle Bishop:

I told y’all she was going to get worked up. I warned you. So what’s going on with cabs? Talk to us about cabs in DC.

Ian Watlington:

Cabs in DC, I think there’s an epidemic going on. It’s called I don’t want to get out of my car syndrome. And it’s basically I feel like when I ask for a cab or am in a position to get a cab, they somehow remember some ancient program that existed some time ago. And please people, it still may exist in very limited form, but they always say, “Well, you need to get an accessible cab.” And I use a wheelchair and usually if I want to be spontaneous, which is often robbed from me by cabs and other issues with transportation in the district, they just don’t seem to want to get out of their cars. I think they honestly don’t know about disability and have some ignorance about that clearly. I don’t mean to downplay that, but it’s almost as if, first of all, they assume all wheelchairs are power chairs and can’t fold.

That’s one major generalization. And then again, like I was saying, they seem to remember this accessibility program, which there was, and it still may exist in name only, but where certain cabs were subsidized to be, they called them wheelchair cabs, but basically accessible cabs. And those you could be in your power chair, those were really convenient. I knew about three of them on the road and then gosh darn it, that COVID hit us and knocked those drivers for a loop. And so now there aren’t any accessible… Well, there are, but very, very few. And so the likelihood of you getting an accessible cab if you reserve one or such is very limited. And it’s very frustrating because like I said in the DCS article, which I’m sure will be in the show notes, as they say on podcasts, they’re just no chance to be spontaneous. You reserve them, they don’t show up. You try to get them spontaneously, they drive right by you or don’t want to get out of the car and tell you to get this mysterious accessible cab that maybe there’s one woman in the district driving that cab.

Michelle Bishop:

First and foremost, I’m pretty sure I have this syndrome that you talked about where you don’t want to leave your car. Is this diagnosable? And do I qualify if I do drive up orders for all my groceries?

Ian Watlington:

Is it diagnosable? I think there’s still a panel looking into it. It might be in the DSM-6, I’m not sure.

Michelle Bishop:

I’ll stay posted.

Ian Watlington:

But yeah, it’s under study and I need to warn Stephanie again, trigger warning, it exists with Uber and Lyft drivers as well. The idea of putting a chair in the trunk of a car is a little too much cardio for those drivers.

Michelle Bishop:

A sad commentary on the state of Americans and on many levels. What strikes me about this story as well is the extent to which there’s really nothing spontaneous about paratransit. You’re only supposed to go to your scheduled doctor’s appointments and you’re just not supposed to leave the house otherwise or have any sort of a life.

Ian Watlington:

Exactly. That is my exact, they do not understand how humans interact in a social setting. And so there is this expectation that you can always give 48 hours notice and you know the exact address of where you’ll be at 5:05 to 6:05 PM. In all seriousness, it’s ridiculous. And I know many people who they need one of the accessible cabs. They can’t rely on ride share as reliable as ride share is, but they end up having to take public transit to go to the doctor. It turns into a seven-hour adventure and that’s just ridiculous.

And the idea that people with disability can’t get any good transportation on spur of the moment is what I think one of the things people don’t understand, they go, “Oh, that person can’t walk, or that person can’t see. And big bummer on those fronts.” But if they knew that being disabled meant that their spontaneity would be seriously impaired itself, that’s another big bummer about being disabled, is that there is this assumption that you can program your life and that you certainly don’t have anything else to do, except plan your life around the transportation.

Stephanie Flynt:

Right? Heaven forbid we be employed or want to go to brunch with our friends or what have you. There’s a lot of stereotypes around disability. I remember seeing one tweet, I guess it was like five years ago, but somebody tweeted something super ignorant about how they don’t understand why people with disabilities are out of the house after 5:00 PM and before 9:00 AM and I cannot remember… Oh, this person I guess, was upset because they were towed out of one of the parking spots reserved for wheelchair users at 7:00 or 8:00 because of course, they’re reserved for people with wheelchairs to utilize them. And this person’s argument was like, okay, well then they shouldn’t be outside of the house at 7 or 8 o’clock. And I’m like, no. And the parking authority agrees with us, so your SOL.

Michelle Bishop:

They’re not gremlins, they can go out.

Ian Watlington:

Yeah, yeah. It’s amazing. Now, a little bit before 9:00 AM, I may have trouble, but 9:00 AM on that, I’m pretty functional. The before 9:00 is my own sleep hygiene. But let’s not talk about that.

Michelle Bishop:

Same, Ian, same. This has been fascinating. We’re definitely going to put your DCS news story in the show notes as you did accurately call them. And maybe we can link to a Gremlins movie in the show notes. I feel like we worked that in. Ian, thank you so much for joining us. It was such a blast to have you back. Please keep fighting a good fight and know how much we all miss you around the office. And we might get you to come do this again and maybe be a guest host with us if you’re up for it.

Ian Watlington:

That would be fabulous. I would enjoy that very much. And I miss you all, and you all are doing good work. We all are doing good work, but I miss NDRN, but excited about my new adventures. But thank you all for the invitation and I look forward to coming back.

Michelle Bishop:

Whatever your new adventures are, Ian, I hope you don’t need a cab to get there, but thanks for joining us.

Ian Watlington:

Thank you very much.

Michelle Bishop:

Well, I just want to say thank you to all of our amazing guests who joined us for this episode. Once again, happy New Year to all of you who are listening, who stuck with us through 2022 and into the new year, and of course, to our special guest host, Justice Shorter, who I just now assume is coming back from hiatus and joining us monthly, right, Justice?

Justice Shorter:

Oh, we should never assume, we know what that means when we assume things, Michelle. But I will always have the PandA Pod near and dear to the work that I do. You all are constantly getting the word out about pertinent issues that need to remain upfront and center in the work of the P&A network. And so I applaud the efforts of you and Stephanie, the PandA Pod continues to pump out phenomenal material on a monthly basis. So kudos to the two of you.

Michelle Bishop:

Well, it didn’t sound like a hard no, so we’ll go ahead and circle back on that later, Justice.

Justice Shorter:

Keep on circling, Michelle, keep on circling. That’s good, that’s good.

Michelle Bishop:

This is probably going to be your new favorite part of every episode and I say that really facetiously. Stephanie, do you have a joke prepared this month?

Stephanie Flynt:

I always have a joke. I always have a joke. I’m sure Michelle is rolling her eyes and she’s like, oh my gosh, please no, please no. Will you ever just one day not have a joke?

Michelle Bishop:

That’s what’s happening over here. Yes, I’m glad you understand.

Stephanie Flynt:

I’m here for this. See, I’m good at reading your mind or reading your language, even though I can’t see anything on the screen because we’re not on video, anyway.

Michelle Bishop:

I want to personally apologize to you for that because it’s kind of scary in here, nobody wants to be in this mind.

Stephanie Flynt:

It’s okay. It’s like, oh look, there’s a cobweb. Just kidding, just kidding. Okay, okay, well here’s my joke and I promise it’s not too scary. It’s actually a pretty smooth joke, if I do say so myself. But what do you call a criminal who steals a bunch of fruit, or someone who steals a bunch of fruit? Let’s not assume people’s guilt. Anyone have any guesses?

Michelle Bishop:

I’m so worried about where this is going.

Stephanie Flynt:

A smoothie criminal. Get it? Smoothie like you blend up the fruit and smooth criminal was a thing in the ’80s, right? [inaudible 00:52:34].

Justice Shorter:

All right, I won’t be back here, I won’t back here.

Stephanie Flynt:

Justice is like I’m coming back.

Justice Shorter:

I’m out.

Michelle Bishop:

Are you not aware that there was a Michael Jackson song? Like it was a huge-

Stephanie Flynt:

Oh, I thought that was something from Santana.

Jack Rosen:

What?

Justice Shorter:

Okay.

Michelle Bishop:

What? I’m so upset. Oh, this is the most upset I’ve ever been on an episode.

Stephanie Flynt:

I’m so sorry.

Justice Shorter:

Jack, end the episode. Close us out, what is happening?

Jack Rosen:

All right, anyway, thank you for-

Justice Shorter:

Hiatus extended indefinitely.

Stephanie Flynt:

Follow us on Twitter, like us on Facebook­–

Michelle Bishop:

No, no, I am up pulling up my music right now and I’m, after this episode, forcing Stephanie to listen to a whole lot of Michael Jackson.

Jack Rosen:

All right, and that was the last episode of the PandA Pod. It’s been a great journey, folks. For more, you can follow NDRN on Twitter, LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, maybe TikTok someday. And you can go to our website, www.ndrn.org.

Stephanie Flynt:

Disclaimer, producer Jack is lying. There will be lots and lots of episodes of the PandA Pod coming to your ears in the coming months.

Michelle Bishop:

Additional disclaimer, they just probably won’t have any more of these jokes.

Stephanie Flynt:

Mm-hmm, disclaimer, fake news. Jack’s like, please stop, I’m tired of editing already.