Michelle, Stephanie, and guest host LaToya Blizzard talk about what’s in the news. New NDRN Executive Director Marlene Sallo joins us to talk about her background and her vision for the network. Then Elizabeth Priaulx joins us to talk about the legacy of Lois Curtis. Should we have more sound effects? Let us know at podcast@ndrn.org

Michelle Bishop:

Hi everyone. Welcome to a new episode of The Panda Pod. Tis December, may I say Happy Holidays if you celebrate any of the million holidays that happens sometimes between Thanksgiving and New Years, whatever that is for you. I am one of your hosts, Michelle Bishop, the Voter Access and Engagement Manager at NDRN.

Stephanie Flynt:

And I’m Stephanie Flynt, one of your hosts as well, public policy analyst here at NDRN.

Michelle Bishop:

The Amazing Justice Shorter is still on hiatus, so we actually have another guest host with us this month. LaToya, please introduce yourself to the people.

LaToya Blizzard:

Hey y’all. I am LaToya Blizzard. I am the fiscal and management training and technical assistant specialist. Say that five times fast. And just a fun fact, one of the best things that I celebrate in December is me, because it’s my birthday month. So happy birthday to me.

Michelle Bishop:

Happy birthday, LaToya.

LaToya Blizzard:

Thank you, thank you, thank you. And my daughter’s birthday and my dad’s birthday. We celebrate literally all month, but I’m right in the middle of December, so I don’t have much money by the time January hits.

Michelle Bishop:

You and everybody else. Well we do have a very special guest who’s going to be joining us later in the episode, Marlene Sallo, our new executive director at NDRN is going to be talking a little bit about her background with the network and giving us a sneak peek of her plans for the future of NDRN and the P&As. But before we get into that, he’s yelled at me before for not introducing him. Let’s introduce our producer, Jack Rosen from NDRN. And Jack, what news stories do you have for us this month?

Jack Rosen:

Hello, this is Jack Rosen. I am the producer for The Panda Pod and I’m here to share what’s in the news. First up, disability advocates have been criticizing the media coverage surrounding Pennsylvania Senate candidate John Fetterman, who is a stroke survivor. Critics within the disability community have been saying that the coverage of him has been ableist, particularly the coverage around the use of closed captions.

Michelle Bishop:

I mean, yeah, this is the definition of ableist, right? Is it just me?

Stephanie Flynt:

Yeah, no, it definitely is. It definitely seems like the focus really and truly is just on his disability rather than his platform and whatever else. When you see Fetterman in the media, that’s all you’re seeing. You’re just seeing disability, you’re just seeing his disability being questioned. And I think for us it’s just a reminder that there’s still a lot for us to do. And while we’ve come a long way in some ways in society, we haven’t a long way in others. Because for starters, they’re questioning his fitness for office, which that’s kind of disgusting, that they’re doing that based on disability solely.

Michelle Bishop:

Well, and a lot of people have a stroke and go back to work. I mean, what do people think a stroke is? It doesn’t mean that you’re not necessarily not qualified to do your job anymore, even if you maybe just communicate differently.

Stephanie Flynt:

Exactly. Exactly.

Michelle Bishop:

Actually wait, it’s a good thing LaToya’s here, because LaToya knows a lot about employment.

LaToya Blizzard:

Because I am employed. Yes. So I do know a lot about employment. But first I just have to say that in following particularly this state and the Fetterman Oz running, I think that it has become this, and I don’t like to use this word, but the spectacle. And I don’t know that people have really been taking it as seriously as they should.

Michelle Bishop:

I like how you refer to it as basically being like elections theater. And I’m going to start stealing that and using that in the future.

LaToya Blizzard:

You’re welcome.

Michelle Bishop:

Thank you. Jack, what else do we have in the news these days?

Jack Rosen:

Workers, employers struggle as long Covid sidelines thousands of Wisconsinites.

LaToya Blizzard:

Yes. I got to say that’s probably not just in Wisconsin. I think Covid has definitely worked through the workforce in that it has taken down staff, and Covid is a tough thing to bounce back from. Speaking as a person that’s had Covid twice it was not as easy as I thought it would be to just get back up and get back into my normal routine, particularly when it came back to work. So I get that long Covid is a real thing. Covid fatigue is real.

Michelle Bishop:

I think I still have some Covid fatigue. I agree. But I think also, I mean I was looking at this article as well and the Government Accountability Office is saying that somewhere from eight to 23 million Americans nationwide probably have long Covid. I mean, that’s a big dent in the workforce. And long Covid strikes me as kind of an obvious this would be covered as a disability under ADA protections. Yeah?

LaToya Blizzard:

I think that it’s something to really be considered. I mean, COVID is new for us, so we’ve never had to encounter this and what the effects of it are. So I think we’re going to be dealing with this for a long time to determine how we view it, and if we could, should, would view it as a disability.

Stephanie Flynt:

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that it’s one thing that we were talking about a little bit more in 2020 when I guess you could say that the pandemic was more of a conversation piece. Of course we still talk about it some in 2022, but we don’t talk about it as much as we did in 2020. And I think with less conversations about it, we’ve been talking about long-term Covid effects less and less and less. I can tell y’all right now I’m with LaToya and Michelle. It literally took me three weeks to not have to take a nap at least once a day after Covid. It was just a thing.

LaToya Blizzard:

So I lowkey think that I may have had long Covid before Covid was a thing because I struggled with getting to work [inaudible].

Stephanie Flynt:

Retweet.

Michelle Bishop:

Agreed. Jack, what else do we have in the news?

Jack Rosen:

So Disability Rights Michigan created a page for the public to track their litigation. You can find that at www.drmich.org/services/advocacy-litigation.

Michelle Bishop:

I love this. I wish all the P&As would do this. Shout out to Disability Rights Michigan. We’ll include the link when we push out this episode as well for you guys to check out. Because I just don’t know that our network gets enough credit for the litigation work that we do. I even talk to people I know personally outside of work who are familiar with some of our major legal victories and I don’t think they even know it was the P&A that did it. I love this idea of just putting our work out there. Shout out to Michigan for tooting their own horn on this one. I love it.

Stephanie Flynt:

Yeah, absolutely. And I love that this resource is something that hopefully other P&A agencies can kind of use as a model and hopefully create similar resources. It’s like you were saying, Michelle, I feel like the P&As don’t often get enough credit for the legal victories that the network gets. And so I think that that is super, super important, and I think that having that as a resource not only helps with credit, but also just helps the general public, whether it be folks in the P&A state or whether it just be people in general who are doing research, keep track of legal matters when it comes to the protection and advocacy agencies.

LaToya Blizzard:

Agreed, Stephanie. I think that this website that they’ve put together is definitely going to be something that can be used all over, and as we do more systemic work and even as the P&AS come together and collaborate, we already know that there’s standings that are available. There’s legislature that’s already out there and we can easily get to it without having to dig too far into a book, we could just go to the website and get the information that we need.

Michelle Bishop:

I’m here for it. Well, shall we turn our attention to Marlene and have a conversation with our new executive director? You guys ready?

Stephanie Flynt:

Let’s do it.

LaToya Blizzard:

Absolutely.

Stephanie Flynt:

Alrighty. So we actually have a very special guest with us right now on the NDRN podcast. We actually have a new executive director for those of you who may be lying underneath a rock. She joined us back in October. Marlene Sallo. Marlene is the first woman and the first Latina and first person with a disability to lead NDRN.

Prior to joining NDRN, she served as the director of preventing targeted violence at the McCain Institute for International Leadership. She previously served for almost four years as the executive director of the Massachusetts Disability Law Center. Marlene was appointed by President Obama to serve as the staff director for the US Commission on Civil Rights in 2013. She later worked for the Obama administration at the US Department of Justice Community Relations Service as chief of staff and senior council. She has a BA from Manhattanville College and a JD from Florida State University. Marlene, thank you so, so much for joining us. We are super, super happy to speak with you today. How are ya?

Marlene Sallo:

I’m doing great. Thank you for hosting me today on your podcast. I look forward to it.

Stephanie Flynt:

Awesome, awesome. So I’m going to go ahead and hand it over to Michelle for our first question.

Michelle Bishop:

So Marlene, you were actually no stranger to the network. Can you tell us a little bit about your history with the P&As?

Marlene Sallo:

Absolutely. I joined the Florida P&A back in 2007, and I served as an education attorney with the Florida P&A. Loved that job while I was there, actually set up an educational advocacy program in the Unified Family Court to advocate for youth who are going through either the child welfare and/or the juvenile justice system who also had an IEP and required special services to advocate on their behalf in the courtroom.

I ultimately relocated to South Carolina and left the P&A system, and then came back full circle and became the executive director of the Massachusetts P&A in March of 2018, where I served for almost four years there. A great job, but unfortunately I had to leave Massachusetts and return to Washington DC, and now I am here at NDRN. So I bring the experience at the staff level as well as an ED level from one of the P&As, and I bring all of that to the table now, serving as the ED for NDRN.

Stephanie Flynt:

Wow, that’s awesome. Thank you so, so much for sharing that with us. So one thing that we have been very fortunate to witness as staff is to see the enthusiasm that you have about the network and about your new role here at the network. So I would love for you to talk about that a little bit more on the podcast for our listeners. What about the network really gets you going? What sparks your passion for disability rights work?

Marlene Sallo:

My passion was originally sparked as a result of my serving as a special education teacher, which ultimately got me into the advocacy realm. Even when I went to law school, I knew that I wanted to represent the rights of youth with special education needs. So I worked very closely to represent the rights of dually involved youth going through not only the child welfare system, but the juvenile justice system. And I found my sweet spot when I joined the Florida P&A in their education advocacy department. I was able to bring that experience and my passion for representing youth as an appointed defense attorney or even as a state appointed child welfare attorney to the P&A. And there I was exposed to so many great advocates and litigation attorneys that had the same passion that I had, which was to advocate for the rights of all youth with disabilities across the US, and how could we really join forces and amplify the work that we were doing.

That is the passion that I bring to the table here at NDRN. But more so it’s the ability to see the great work that’s being done on the ground across all 57 P&As. Where I know that we’re all fighting for the same thing, is to ensure that the rights of people with disabilities are enforced, to amplify the great work that each of us is doing in our respective states, and to also make sure that we are the voice, at least from an NDRN perspective, up on the hill to ensure that the protections continue to remain in effect and that any protections that currently exist for people within our community are expanded upon. And then let’s work to ensure that other protections are put in play. So I believe that we’re all working for the same objective. We’re all working to improve outcomes, and at the same time we all bring that same passion based on our specific areas that we’re working on.

But it’s a big family in the way that I view it, and that’s what makes me the most passionate is that I come to work every day knowing that we’re all in this together and we all have the same vision and the same passion to advocate for the rights of all people with disabilities nationwide.

Michelle Bishop:

Yes. Get the people fired up for disability rights this morning. I love it. But let’s keep it real for a moment. NDRN getting a new executive director is kind of a big deal. The current, Decker, finally retiring is kind of the end of an era. I still talk to people every day who are surprised he actually finally took that leap and retired. Curt, I hope you’re on a cruise ship somewhere right now, living your best life. But does this moment feel significant to you as you step into this role?

Marlene Sallo:

It is extremely significant. And might I add that I did meet with Curt in September and Curt had just returned from a cruise. So we know he’s living his best life.

Michelle Bishop:

That’s amazing.

Marlene Sallo:

It is extremely significant because I understand the significant role that Curt played in the establishment of NDRN and all of the contributions that he’s made for the past almost 40 years, you can’t take that away from him. And so I’m honored to be able to continue the work that he’s done and to build upon it.

I don’t believe it hit me just how significant it was until recently. And then it was like, whoa, this is bigger than I allowed myself to envision it was. And I think that’s a good thing. If I had really pondered about how significant his position is, I might have been a bit more nervous than I was during the interview process, but I felt comfortable in the sense that I had been part of this network and it felt like coming home.

And so the significance is that I am following all the great work that Curt has done and I’m being given the honor to continue leading the charge as it applies to the great work that all of the advocates across the US are doing. But at the same time, I understand that being the first woman, Latina, and first person with a disability leading this organization also adds an additional layer of just knowing that I have work to do and there are people out there that are looking to see how I navigate these waters and how I best represent them. And I am honored to be able to lead NDRN, and I give my all and will continue to give my all every day to ensure that I amplify the work of all of the P&As. But at the same time, I’m advocating for the rights of all people with disabilities.

Stephanie Flynt:

That is awesome. So it’s been really, really cool to see the values that you hold for this organization and how you’ve been so far working to help inspire the staff and your collaborative approach. And that’s just been really, really cool to see. I know our listeners are probably curious about this, and I’m not totally sure how much you can share, but of course we would love to know about any big plans you may have, if you can give us a sneak peek, like a preview of any changes or new projects that you’re hoping to see through fruition, just different things that you may want to take on in the next few months.

Marlene Sallo:

Well, the thoughts continue to brew and the plans continue to slowly manifest themselves. But what I will say is that I bring a certain passion for certain issues that I would really like to continue working on. I am a big proponent of universal design. And so how do I weave that into the work that we will be doing moving forward is something that I’m currently debating. I am a big proponent of voter protection, and so I know that we’re big in doing that work. How do I keep supporting that and expanding upon it? And I am extremely concerned about the other side of Covid, if we can even say we’re on the other side, how that is affecting short-term and long-term access to healthcare. And just from a public health perspective, how do we plan accordingly so that we can respond quicker and in a more uniform fashion if sometime in the near future we have another virus or another outbreak or another activity that happens within the public health realm that affects our community in a negative manner.

And so how do we prepare for that? How do we forecast what the future may hold for us moving forward? And how do we prepare accordingly, not only at NDRN, but across the network? And so all of those things remain front and center in my mind. In the next few months, I will be weaving that into a work plan. And if you join us at the annual conference that we will be having next year, I will be unveiling my thoughts and my objectives for NDRN moving forward.

Michelle Bishop:

That’s exciting. I love the plug for the annual conference. Yes, everyone please come and join us. This has been amazing. Thank you so much for joining us on the podcast. We’re so happy to get to help introduce you to the network. Is there just anything else, any other messages that you’d like our listeners to hear today? Knowing that the folks who check out this podcast are working at the P&AS all over the country.

Marlene Sallo:

I just say thank you for all the work that you do on a daily basis to advocate for the rights of people with disabilities. I am here to support you. I’m here to amplify the work you’re doing. And just know that we all know, but we continue to let the public know that disability rights is civil rights. And as long as we work together to bring that forward, we will be able to continue doing the great work that we’re doing and amplify and build upon what we’ve done thus far. And I look forward to working side by side with you on this continuous advocacy journey.

Michelle Bishop:

Thank you so much. Thank you for joining us on The Panda Pod. We loved having you. And of course, if you ever want to come back and talk about any of these issues, you know you’re welcome anytime now.

Marlene Sallo:

Yes, thank you. I will be reaching out.

Michelle Bishop:

We love it. We’re always looking for new topics to talk about on The Panda Pod. Thanks so much.

So every month on this podcast, we have a spotlight story where we look for people with disabilities to tell their own stories about our struggles in the disability rights movement. And this month, y’all, we have a very important but a bit of a sobering spotlight story. Recently, if you haven’t heard Lois Curtis actually passed away, a really important figure in the disability rights movement. Lois, you will be missed for sure. For people who don’t know her story, we actually asked Elizabeth Priaulx from NDRN to join us this episode as our resident expert on Olmstead. Is that true, Elizabeth? Did I just make that up?

Elizabeth Priaulx:

I love being called the resident expert on Olmsted. I am our resident expert and I’ve been very lucky to know the story of Lois Curtis and Elaine Wilson.

Michelle Bishop:

Can you tell us a little bit more about Lois’s role in Olmsted and what that meant for the disability rights community?

Elizabeth Priaulx:

Sure. Absolutely. Lois Curtis and Elaine Wilson were living, they both had intellectual disabilities and mental illness diagnoses, and they were living in an institution, and they had lived there most of their lives. They became aware of a group of people in Atlanta or in Georgia where they were, who were able to get community-based services. And they checked with their medical professionals, and the medical professionals said, “You would be absolutely appropriate for community-based services.” But when they requested it of the state of Georgia, Georgia said, “If you want to keep receiving Medicaid, you have to live in an institution.” And they said, “Well, why are some people living in the community and receiving Olmstead?” And the state said, “Well, we just have a very small program.”

So Lois Curtis and Elaine Wilson were identified by the Atlanta Legal Aid Society, and they said, “I’d like to live in the community. My doctor said I’m appropriate for the community, and they’re telling me that if I want to stay on Medicaid, I have to stay in this hospital.” And Sue Jameson from Atlanta Legal Aid and her staff said, “Well, we can work to get you out.” Well, as in most states, there’s a long waiting list for community-based services in Georgia and it didn’t look good. And what Atlanta Legal Aid did was say, “You should expand your community-based program so more people could go in the community.” And the state said, “We don’t have the funding for that. It’s not how we run our program.” And they went to court. They filed a civil action, not even a class action, civil action on behalf of both Lois Curtis and Elaine Wilson. And they argued that the Americans with Disability Act says that programs and services should be run so that individuals can live in the most integrated settings appropriate to their needs. So it was a violation of the ADA to not provide more programs in the community.

So their case went all the way up to the Supreme Court and the Department of Justice filed on behalf of Lois Curtis and Elaine Wilson. And what was so wonderful about this was I think that in the beginning there were 28 states that sided with Georgia, that the Americans with Disabilities Act did not require the states to provide more services in the community or services in the most integrated setting. And because of tremendous grassroots organization, and national disability rights was part of this, almost every national disability agency that you can think of was a part of the grassroots and National Disability Rights Network signed on to an amicus that was filed by different state attorney generals, even, in support of their arguments. And as a result of this grassroots, a very large percentage of State Attorney Generals decided to come off the brief in support of Georgia.

So this showed the power of the disability community. And that’s one of the things I love when I think about Olmstead VLC. And it went all the way to the Supreme Court. And in a six to three ruling, Supreme Court said, “Yes, the state is required to provide services in the most integrated setting appropriate. However, there is a provision in the ADA that says that if a state can show it is a fundamental alteration and it disrupts the state’s ability to provide services to the whole disability community equally, then they can argue that it is not something they need to do.” And what Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg said in her opinion was, “We understand that the state won’t be able to instantly move people out into the community. We don’t have the infrastructure for that yet. You need to develop programs and services. So we will allow states to develop a plan for how they are going to move people out at a reasonable pace and develop the community services necessary so that people could live safely in the community.”

So that is the story of Olmsted. And one of the reasons that I love to think about Lois Curtis and Elaine Wilson, they were African American women from the South who just pushed and pushed and said, “Why can they and not us?” And to me, “Why can the people live in the community and not us, why is it such a small amount?” That to me is a definition of somebody standing up for their rights and asking why is the world the way it is? It doesn’t need to be this way. So I think about her and Lois and I think about the grassroots that made this decision come about. And sometimes I would like to think about what the world would be if there hadn’t been courageous people to bring Olstead BLC. We wouldn’t have the expansion of community based services that so many of us rely on for the past 20 years.

Michelle Bishop:

That’s incredible. I mean, that’s just truly life changing for so many people with disabilities. Actually, and we talked to Lois, Jack, correct me if I’m wrong, two years ago when we did our disability rights and Black series on social media for Black History Month, we talked to Lois. I think we have a clip.

Jack Rosen:

We do. Let me play that for you.

Lois Curtis:

My name is Lois Curtis, happy Black History Month. I’m glad to be free.

LaToya Blizzard:

Shout out to Lois for being a trailblazer for people with disabilities. I think that as I was reading in this, it’s a part of history, the disability rights history, but at the same time that was not that long ago. We’re talking, what, 1999? Not that long ago that the judges decided that, oh yeah, you should have space in the community to live. And it’s beyond me to think that just, what, 20, 23 years ago that we were thinking about that. 23 years ago I was in college and I had no idea that all of this was going on around me. So shout out to Lois for advocating for herself, for sticking it through, and truly overcoming all the obstacles of being a Black woman in the South with disabilities, but still wanting a better life for herself and not just conceding to the, well, this is just the way it has to be.

Michelle Bishop:

All she put out there was, “I am glad to be free.” If she didn’t pick the single most important thing she could have said, it’s fine. I’m fine. I’m not crying, you’re crying, LaToya, whatever. I’m fine.

Speaker 8:

I feel like that honestly sums up the accomplishments, the grassroots accomplishments of Lois and Elaine perfectly. I feel like those two words, that sentence is just the perfect summary.

LaToya Blizzard:

And it’s the sentiment of so many others that were impacted by this decision.

Michelle Bishop:

Honestly, y’all, I think this is the perfect way to pay tribute to someone who was part of such an instrumental change for so many people with disabilities. And other than that, roll into the holidays and come back after the new year with a new episode of our podcast and a renewed fire to make sure everyone is free, because none of us are free until all of us are free.

LaToya Blizzard:

So thank you for having me. I really enjoyed it. Feel free to invite me back anytime.

Michelle Bishop:

LaToya, it was such a blast to have you on the show, and I’m so glad we talked about issues around work and employment, and you are my guru for all things good leadership and management. So it was so cool to have you here.

LaToya Blizzard:

You’re so sweet. I’m sending you hearts right now. You can’t see it, but I’m actively sending you hearts.

Michelle Bishop:

LaToya, I can see it with my mind’s eye. If you also don’t know LaToya’s basically my unwitting life coach at this point, if you ever go to her workshops at the annual conference, and she’ll do this great stuff about work life balance and mindfulness. And now she doesn’t know that she’s my life coach, but she is.

Stephanie Flynt:

So speaking of sweet things, can I tell a joke?

LaToya Blizzard:

Please.

Michelle Bishop:

Oh no.

Stephanie Flynt:

Aw, yay. See, LaToya likes my jokes. This is why she can come back anytime. Yes. That is a requirement if you’re going to guest host. Anyway.

Michelle Bishop:

Hit us with a joke.

Stephanie Flynt:

What do you get blind people for the holidays?

LaToya Blizzard:

What?

Stephanie Flynt:

Candy canes.

Michelle Bishop:

Oh my gosh.

Stephanie Flynt:

Sorry not sorry.

Michelle Bishop:

Do we have to put a disclaimer on that one for our listeners?

LaToya Blizzard:

Oh my gosh.

Michelle Bishop:

Given that this is an audio only broadcast, I just want to go ahead and make sure all of our listeners know that Stephanie is blind, so she has somewhat of a pass to tell that joke. All right? Don’t add us. Don’t send us angry emails.

LaToya Blizzard:

Oh gosh.

Stephanie Flynt:

Yes. I’m very blind. If you need proof, we’ll figure out how to get it to you.

Michelle Bishop:

That reminds me, I think our new email is up and running, y’all. We have an email address, podcast@ndrn.org, so if you have ideas for future episodes or you want to be featured as a guest on our podcast, feel free to email us, podcast@ndrn.org.

LaToya Blizzard:

And shout out to you, Michelle and Stephanie, for holding down the podcast. It’s been great for sure.

Stephanie Flynt:

Thank you, LaToya.

Michelle Bishop:

Now you’re going to have to come back. You’re coming back. LaToya.

LaToya Blizzard:

Listen, I’m trying to butter you up. I’m trying to get a spot here.

Michelle Bishop:

Are you trying to get a gig? Was this an audition? Consider yourself hired.

LaToya Blizzard:

Low key. I got my podcast voice on and everything, so I’m ready for it.

Stephanie Flynt:

Email us about whether you want LaToya on the podcast, also known as email us if you know that LaToya should come back. If you don’t, then don’t email us.

Michelle Bishop:

I know, we don’t accept LaToya hate in our email.

Stephanie Flynt:

Yeah, exactly. No negative emails, please, only good vibes.

Michelle Bishop:

Only good vibes in our email. And what about our socials, Jack? Hit us with the social media.

Jack Rosen:

And you can follow us on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn. You can also follow us on TikTok, but we do not post there currently. But you can follow us. To learn more about the work we do, visit www.ndrn.org.