Michelle, Stephanie and Raquel sit down with NDRN’s own Claire Stanley to discuss autonomous vehicles. Then we share a spotlight story recorded in the field, when Jack, Raquel and our colleague Marcia Baldwin took a Waymo in Phoenix, Arizona. Listen all the way through for a surprise guest appearance!

Full transcript of this month’s episode available at https://www.ndrn.org/resource/panda-pod-july-23/

Michelle Bishop:

Hello, welcome to podcast everyone. Welcome back. So I’m really tired today, so somebody else is going to have to be the hype man for this episode. This podcast has worn me out. This is Michelle Bishop and I am the voter access and engagement manager at NDRN and one third of your podcast hosting team.

Stephanie Flynt:

And I’m Stephanie Flynt, public policy analyst, and I am going to try to be the podcast hype lady, but I’ve only had half a cup of coffee today, so.

Michelle Bishop:

Oh, no. Raquel, please have energy.

Raquel Rosa:

Hey, this is Raquel. I have had lots of coffee. I am also full-time on the external relations team. I am your community relations specialist full-time, live and in color, and I am the three of three in your podcast family today.

Michelle Bishop:

Yay. Congrats on your move to communications. Raquel. Woo.

Stephanie Flynt:

Yes.

Michelle Bishop:

Jack, insert the applause sound here. Oh, and we as usual, forgot to introduce our producer, Jack Rosen. Hey Jack, thanks for everything.

Jack Rosen:

Our guest today is NDRN’s very own public policy analyst, Claire Stanley. Claire began working at NDRN in December of 2020. Prior to her position here, she worked as an advocate with the American Council of the Blind, where she advocated for the rights of blind and visually impaired persons. Claire has previously worked at two P&As, at Disability Rights California as a summer legal extern, and with Disability Rights DC at University Legal Services as a legal fellow under the PAMI program. Claire received her BA in Political Science and Communication from the University of California Davis and a JD from the University of California Irvine.

Stephanie Flynt:

What am I missing here?

Michelle Bishop:

Stephanie, I don’t actually know what that is either, so you’re in good company this time.

Stephanie Flynt:

Okay. That makes me feel better. Okay. Sorry for holding the world up.

Danielle:

Hi, this is Danielle and I was a tour guide at UC Irvine. So quick history on the anteater. Long story short, UC Irvine was a university that started in the ’60s and as part of their funky hippie rebellion, they had a school vote where the students, despite what the administration wanted they all decided to write in that they would become anteaters. They won the next sporting event, and so the school officially became anteaters. And so now the UC Irvine chant is, “Rip them eaters, ZOT! ZOT! ZOT!”

Jack Rosen:

All right. And now back to our show. Claire, recently, Raquel and I had the chance to try out a Waymo when we were at our annual conference in Phoenix. It was a pretty weird experience being in a self-driving car. Took a little bit to get used to, but we keep hearing these companies talk about themselves as a solution to some of the transportation barriers facing people with disabilities. On the other hand, we also noticed that the Waymo we were in might not be accessible to a lot of people with disabilities. So I was wondering if you can talk about the potential that these autonomous vehicles have and maybe some of the challenges.

Claire Stanley:

Yeah, thanks Jack, and thank you for having me here today. There is a lot of excitement in the disability community on the potential benefits that can come from autonomous vehicles or AVs, you might hear me say for short. But of course, it’s like anything, if you don’t design it with accessibility in mind, going back and retrofitting it is not going to work so well, and then it’s going to leave our whole community behind. So I’ve heard a lot of us in this field compare it to retrofitting a building. If you don’t install elevators and ramps from the beginning, it’s going to be really hard to fix it. So the same thing goes with autonomous vehicles. So there’s a lot of great potential for those of us who are blind or have low vision. Driving a traditional car is, for the most part, impossible with exception of a few people who have some assistive technology.

But all that to say, it would open up that door, but not just for the blind and low vision. I’ve heard talk for people with cognitive or intellectual and developmental disabilities, for the older community, which would be wonderful, so they can get to places like doctor’s appointments, especially for people who live in rural areas where public transportation and subsequently paratransit just don’t even exist. Persons who use wheelchair, other mobility devices. So there’s a lot of potential, which is exciting, because when you talk to people in the disability advocacy space, you’ll often hear that one of the biggest barriers to just engaging in the community is lack of transportation, public transportation, things like that. And so if we have access to these autonomous vehicles, we can truly independently get around without having to be reliant on other resources that are often unreliable, expensive, things like that.

But like you said, there’s definitely some potential pitfalls or negative consequences that could come about. We have talked, and when I say we, that’s the general disability community. We’ve talked to a lot of the major car companies, the OEMs that are developing these, and a lot of them have said that they’ll make them accessible for people with disabilities, but they can say so much, but when the rubber hits the road, will it actually happen. So I’ll just give a couple of examples and then feel free to ask questions and I can expand. But we need things like physical access. So if you’re a wheelchair user or using another mobility device, you obviously need the ability to enter the car safely. If you’re blind or have another sensory disability like deafness, or are hard of hearing, you might need what we call human machine interface, HMI.

So that’s things like text-to-speech or large print, things like that. Again, if you have a intellectual or developmental disability, we want the interaction to be straightforward and not too complicated, all kinds of things like that. Even thinking about the elderly community and making it simple for them. A lot of us suspect that a lot of these will initially be used through your smartphone. What about people who don’t have a smartphone, don’t want to use a smartphone, can’t use a smartphone. So again, the opportunities are amazing, but the barriers are definitely there if we don’t think about it.

Raquel Rosa:

So Claire, could you give us a couple of recommendations about how we could ask these companies such as Waymo to improve their accessibility in their vehicles?

Claire Stanley:

That’s a great question. So I guess that’s a hard to answer, because a lot of, again, the disability community have already been asking them. We’ve had some really great conversations. But again, our fear is that you can talk and talk all day long, and then when the rubber hits the road, no pun intended, car jokes, will they actually carry it out. So I guess the question is can we develop these relationships and really keep them going? Which of course, the optimist in us all wants to believe that’s true, and NDRN and other disability advocacy organizations are really staying on top of those relationships. But of course, at the end of the day, it’s an industry. It’s a company that wants to make money, and so will they carry it out. So I guess they have two thoughts there. One, of course, we should continue to be whispering in their ear or maybe yelling in their ear so that they don’t forget us.

But then there’s also perhaps a policy side to it. Do we need to, on the policy side, mandate that it happens or will it not happen? So it’s hard that, again, the optimists in me want to say, if we continue these relationships that already exist, things will get done. But then the policy side of me says, do we need to implement law that’ll require it so that we know that it’ll happen? So I wish I could say there was an easy answer and NDRN and several other organizations were fortunate to go to the autonomous vehicle, oh, I’m going to get the wrong name wrong, but it’s basically a caucus that has formed in Congress. And we were invited to one of their meetings about a month ago, and we went and we got to meet some of the industry partners, which was exciting, because we got to actually physically look at some of the cars, which was really fun. And we were able to talk to some of the Congress members there who are leading the cause and leading some of the legislation.

So again, I think it’s a mix of interacting with the companies, interacting with the Congress members who are helping to push this along, push it down the road. Let’s see how many car jokes I can make. But yeah, it’s not a clear cut answer, but just continuing to make sure that our voice is heard in every segment of the process as it rolls down the road.

Raquel Rosa:

Thanks, Claire. I think you bring up a really good point about how these companies are truly, they’re trying to meet needs, but at the end of the day, they’re trying to make money off of it. And I think our collective approach also includes how we talk about an economic benefit for everybody when everybody has access, that’s good for all of us. So I really appreciate you giving us those tips and ideas.

Claire Stanley:

I think that’s a really good point, because we say that in the transportation space, in the advocacy world, in all forms of transportation, whether it be autonomous vehicles or public transit, et cetera, we always make the argument that if people in our situation, people with disabilities, have a access to transportation, we can do more, i.e go to work, go to businesses and spend our money. You got to get out and about to be part of the community. And so I think that’s a great point that if we have access to that, we can be another customer in the industry and we can be other employed individuals. And so involvement makes everything contribute to the community as well.

Stephanie Flynt:

Yeah, absolutely. And I love that you pointed out the access to transportation. I know that there are some folks who of course have some weariness around the autonomous vehicle space. I’ve definitely heard folks back home go, “Why can’t you just keep using Uber and Lyft?” And I will not get on my soapbox like I did my first episode of the podcast. If you want to go back and hear my Uber and Lyft denial stories, feel free to do that, or feel free to go find me on TikTok. But all that to say, being denied rides because you have a disability or even not being able to access rideshares and that sort of thing. Having this whole new world of autonomous vehicles that opens that door knowing that when you’re requesting a ride, that the autonomous vehicles not going to deny you based on a disability or service animal. So I know that we both share those commonalities and those experiences as well.

Claire Stanley:

Yeah, that’s a really good point. And in fact, I like that you emphasized comparing it to rideshare companies, because a lot of the major industry competitors we’ve spoken to like, Waymo, can’t talk, who created these, have told us that at least the first iteration, which who knows how many years that’ll last, will not be privately owned cars or vehicles like most of us grew up with, they will be more of a rideshare model. So unless you’re the wealthiest of the wealthy, you’re probably not going to have an AV sitting in your driveway or a garage, most of it’s going to be a rideshare situation. So you’re exactly right. Those of us in the general population who are using it, which hopefully will be everybody based on accessibility and affordability, which is a totally other topic we could go down, but based on that, it’ll be a rideshare model and then anybody can use it.

And like you said, exactly, a car hopefully cannot discriminate. A car’s not going to talk and say, “I don’t want your service dog, you can’t get in.” And one other thing I wanted to say, as far as accessibility, I had talked about the fact that access is important for both physical access and HMI or human machine interface. One other thing that has been discussed as far as accessibility is just being able to find the vehicle itself. For persons who are blind or have low vision, the app on our phone may say it’s a red Mustang convertible, that would be awesome, but we’re not able, for the most part to see the red Mustang convertible. So there’s been talk about things like haptics, that’ll vibrate to tell you when you’re getting closer, a beeping sound coming from the car. So getting creative with those. This would be the same for persons with perhaps intellectual or developmental disabilities, making it very straightforward on finding your car.

We’ve heard discussions from some car industries that they are not making it as easy to have the car pull up right on the corner where the curb cut is. So a wheelchair user or other mobility devices could easily use the curb cut and get in the car. We’ve heard directly from those companies that some prefer to pull up more and mid-road, that’s not going to work for people who use mobility devices. So really advocating for the cars to know to pull up at the safest spot, close to a curb cut, things like that. So it’s not just using the car itself, but it’s even finding the car and being able to get into it from the beginning. So that’s another area of advocacy that’s going on in this space.

Raquel Rosa:

I think we are on the same wavelength. Claire, I was going to ask you what your wishlist might include, and it sounds like you’ve identified some of those items. And to your point about having the car pull up in a seamless way for entry, I remember, and I don’t know Jack if you took photos or videos of this, I know I didn’t, but when our car approached, it was almost like the older brother in The Wonder Years who was like, press the accelerator and then stop and then press the accelerator and stop. So he’s joking with his brother like, “Get in the car,” and then, “Sike,” and that kind of thing. And that’s what it felt like at first, and we could not figure out how we’re supposed to get the vehicle to stop and get us inside. So that part was a bit of a hiccup, and I would imagine that for anybody requiring modifications or just universal design to get in easily, that that is a barrier. That could definitely be a safety issue where wheelchairs, mobility, aids, feet, dogs are concerned.

Claire Stanley:

Exactly. Somebody, an elderly individual might just take a couple of minutes longer just by virtue of their age. If a wheelchair ramp has to be deployed, that’s going to take more time. I have a service dog I get in first. She has to follow me. That’s going to take extra time. So definitely all those variables to consider. I’ll just throw out one other thing. There’s several pieces of legislation that are considering these issues. There were two different laws in both the Senate and the House back in 2018 I want to say, but they got sidelined, because of the COVID pandemic, and so they lost steam for a while, but we hear that things are bubbling up to the surface. Again, I had talked about those leads in Congress that we met with, so they’re starting to bubble up again and they include a lot of different things.

But one thing that we talked about back in 2018 and we’re talking about again, that I think is important, is an element about who would qualify to be able to use autonomous vehicles. Not everywhere, but at the state level. There’d been murmurs in a lot of different states, yet you would still have to pass the general test to have a driver’s license to use an autonomous vehicle, which of course is terrifying to the disability community when we’re making the point that because of AVs, the non-traditional driver will be able to use them, that’s what’s so exciting. And yet states for control reasons, I’m not sure what their thought process is, they’re saying in certain situations that people would still have to have a traditional driver’s license. And so in several of the pieces of legislation that we’ve supported, that’s been a big element of the law that we have said, “Yes, yes.” And we’ve pointed to and said, “Please don’t inadvertently cut us out because people are anxious and they just want to hold onto what they know when we’re saying our community should be able to use these.”

Raquel Rosa:

Absolutely. As somebody who does not own a vehicle, by choice, I think that that’s just another pathway for people who may need to get somewhere quickly and not rent a vehicle, or hail a taxi, or take the bus, or whatever. I think all of what you’re saying, Claire, is totally in alignment with just universal access and that’s all we want, and I think that’s got a lot to keep marching on for.

Claire Stanley:

Exactly.

Michelle Bishop:

Claire, thank you so much for joining us today. This was fantastic and really fascinating for those of us who did not ride in an autonomous vehicle for this episode. So thank you so much for joining us, Claire. We really appreciate it, and I think a couple of us got to ride in an autonomous vehicle for the spotlight story. Take it away.

Raquel Rosa:

All right, so now we are going to listen to a sound clip of Jack, Marcia Baldwin, who is our deputy executive director for training, technical assistance and operations, and I, we were all in the vehicle and giving a on the ground experience as it navigated from the restaurant. We had dinner back to the hotel. It was a pretty surreal experience, I think. Definitely pros and cons. We’re really looking forward to having you all listen to it and you should hit us up with your thoughts. Jack, what’s our email address? Jack, how can people send us feedback?

Michelle Bishop:

Did he disappear? Wait, should I just-

Raquel Rosa:

I guess.

Stephanie Flynt:

Jack’s voice has changed, it’s podcast@ndrn.org.

Raquel Rosa:

Excellent.

Michelle Bishop:

Our loyal listeners can reach us anytime at podcast@ndn.org.

Raquel Rosa:

That’s right. We want to hear from David Boyer, Tina Pinedo-

Michelle Bishop:

My mom.

Raquel Rosa:

David Card

Stephanie Flynt:

Yes.

Raquel Rosa:

And Michelle’s mom, because I can confirm as of this morning that my mom does not listen to the podcast.

Michelle Bishop:

Oh, no. Another mom problem.

Raquel Rosa:

All four or five of our listeners, please email us and please let us know what you think about our experience taking Waymo.

Audio:

Hello from Waymo.

Jack Rosen:

So we are recording this episode or something of the PandA Pod from a self-driving car, seeing if this can solve a lot of mobility concerns for people with disabilities. I don’t know. What’s your initial reactions? I am a little nervous, to be honest.

Raquel Rosa:

Yeah, it’s pretty strange to see the wheel in motion and nobody’s behind it. It’s like a haunted vehicle.

Marcia Baldwin:

This is Marcia. This is the coolest thing I’ve ever done. And as the mom of a person on the autism spectrum who does not drive, I can’t wait for driverless cars to become the norm.

Raquel Rosa:

And as a person who chooses not to drive, this sounds like a really nice backup situation. I could get around like this.

Jack Rosen:

Okay, so it’s got a few options in it. You can tell it to pull over, you can call support. Hopefully we will not be needing that one and we can play music. I don’t think we’ll be using that one quite yet since we want to be able to get the audio, but it does a decent job turning, I have to say. I was worried it was going to be a little jerkier.

Marcia Baldwin:

Yeah. It is definitely staying off the main roads.

Raquel Rosa:

Yeah.

Jack Rosen:

Yes.

Marcia Baldwin:

It is taking a circuitous route.

Raquel Rosa:

Ooh, Marcia, I think you have your future on the PandA Pod. On the PandA Pod.

Marcia Baldwin:

Sorry. This is a onetime guest appearance on.

Raquel Rosa:

Dave Boyer, read it and weep Marcia’s on the pod and you are not. Oh, and also mom, who’s not listening, mom, I’m in a driverless car.

Jack Rosen:

Okay, let’s see. It’s at a stop sign, it stopped.

Marcia Baldwin:

And we’ve got people across the street. It acknowledges that there are people around and it is driving with caution. That was a better stop than I do when I drive.

Jack Rosen:

I know, right? Same.

Marcia Baldwin:

Yes. It did a full stop. It was not a rolling stop.

Jack Rosen:

Oh, okay. It knew there was a speed bump and slowed down. You know what? I miss that sometimes, so this thing might be a better driver than me and Marcia’s.

Raquel Rosa:

This is nice. I’ve been in Marcia’s car. She’s a very good driver. But as somebody who takes public transit all the time, I can say that this is much smoother than a lot of bus drivers.

Marcia Baldwin:

So now we’re behind an ice cream truck.

Raquel Rosa:

Ooh, ice cream.

Marcia Baldwin:

That is going…

Raquel Rosa:

Very slowly.

Marcia Baldwin:

Less than 10 miles per hour.

Jack Rosen:

In the middle of the night through a…

Raquel Rosa:

Residential neighborhood.

Jack Rosen:

Yeah.

Marcia Baldwin:

This is so-

Jack Rosen:

Well, I’d rather be in this car than that one.

Marcia Baldwin:

Nice. That one was driving with the door open. That’s not safe at all.

Raquel Rosa:

Oh, we’ve got the turn indicator.

Marcia Baldwin:

This is absolutely wild.

Jack Rosen:

Okay. It got in the other lane when it saw a bus was merging in.

Marcia Baldwin:

It does make me feel a lot safer that there are virtually no other cars on the road.

Jack Rosen:

Yes.

Raquel Rosa:

Oh, totally. Yeah.

Jack Rosen:

Yeah. I don’t know why it’s shifting lanes, but it is.

Marcia Baldwin:

One of the other things that I like is that on the front panel, it tells us our estimated time of arrival.

Raquel Rosa:

I think it drives in the right lane by default, because I think it goes slower than most of the traffic on the road. It’s only going 30 miles an hour in a 40 mile an hour zone.

Jack Rosen:

Oh, you’re right.

Marcia Baldwin:

Highly observant.

Jack Rosen:

Okay, so it might have some trouble dealing with DC and Maryland drivers where they’re going 50 in the right lane.

Marcia Baldwin:

That is true.

Raquel Rosa:

Exactly, yeah.

Marcia Baldwin:

Which is why you don’t find driverless cars on beltway of DC.

Raquel Rosa:

Notice that he didn’t say Virginia drivers.

Jack Rosen:

They’re banned in their own unique ways.

Marcia Baldwin:

For those of you in the DMV that that’s a hard joke right there.

Jack Rosen:

To be fair, they couldn’t drive in Virginia because it’s nothing but highways anyway. Be a little hard for it.

Raquel Rosa:

There’s plenty of non-highway in Virginia.

Jack Rosen:

I don’t know if that’s true. But no, it seems like this could be pretty useful for people with disabilities. I don’t know if they have a wheelchair accessible version of it. There wasn’t a lift or anything like that attached to it, but if you’re blind, or don’t drive for a variety of other reasons, seems like it’s a pretty good option. And…

Marcia Baldwin:

Okay, we’re coming up to a stoplight in a fairly busy intersection and some exits to get on a highway. It is definitely taking the long way back.

Raquel Rosa:

Oh, I just realized that it also-

Jack Rosen:

Oh, yeah. Okay. Get that on the-

Marcia Baldwin:

There’s an animated map that shows-

Jack Rosen:

What it sees, yeah.

Raquel Rosa:

Cars and the traffic signal and the other cars, it shows where they’re turning the ones that are stationary. Wow.

Jack Rosen:

Raquel, is it recording on your end?

Marcia Baldwin:

It’s funny it doesn’t have-

Raquel Rosa:

Son of a gun. No, it’s not.

Jack Rosen:

We were just saying how for a lot of people with disabilities, if you are blind or low vision, even if you have an anxiety disorder and don’t want to have to interact with a driver dead in a stranger’s car, well, there’s no stranger here. It’s just a machine driving you not quite sure what to make of that, but it is pretty cool.

Raquel Rosa:

Yeah. Jack, I’m glad you talked us into this. This was…

Marcia Baldwin:

I’m so excited.

Raquel Rosa:

Very excited.

Marcia Baldwin:

I would’ve done this just to do it with no destination.

Raquel Rosa:

So not only do we have a destination, we have the bonus of you being on the pod.

Marcia Baldwin:

It’s too bad there’s no narration available.

Raquel Rosa:

Yeah, I agree. I agree. Then that, I’m glad you brought that up because not only is there no narration, I wonder if, because the screens are all in English, I wonder if there is a way of customizing it for other languages.

Jack Rosen:

Well, let’s see. There’s a menu. Map view, about this, riding tips, camera. Oh, we are being recorded by, it doesn’t look like there’s another language option, which is odd given that is in Phoenix, you do have a large Spanish-speaking population here.

Raquel Rosa:

Yes.

Marcia Baldwin:

Well, and more importantly for anyone with visual disabilities, they would not be able to keep track of this display screen.

Jack Rosen:

Yeah, that is true. I’m not seeing any sort of… A, it doesn’t narrate automatically, and I’m not seeing any sort of enable voiceover option.

Marcia Baldwin:

No. If Google Maps can talk to you or Waze can talk to you, surely this driveless car could talk to you.

Jack Rosen:

Yeah, definitely could.

Marcia Baldwin:

And it had a welcome message when we got in. We were talking over it. It is definitely staying off the main roads. I do find that interesting and probably safer.

Raquel Rosa:

Yes, it does take a lot longer.

Jack Rosen:

On the plus side, at least for now, while it’s in the demo stage for folks who are lower income, I did notice that this costs less than a competing rideshare company from the same location we were leaving, back to our hotel. And well, I guess you don’t have to tip it. It’s not going to lower your Uber rating if you don’t tip the robot, so that’s a nice bonus.

Marcia Baldwin:

I don’t think I’ve heard of any of these driverless vehicles being wheelchair accessible yet.

Raquel Rosa:

No, no.

Marcia Baldwin:

I would certainly hope that that would be high on the priority list.

Raquel Rosa:

Yes.

Marcia Baldwin:

And other mobility aids. If somebody uses a walker, anything that could be collapsed and put in the trunk, there’s no obvious.

Raquel Rosa:

I wonder if you can call one-

Marcia Baldwin:

Storing.

Raquel Rosa:

… from the airport.

Marcia Baldwin:

Oh, because the airport’s pretty congested. I think it would be a high traffic area. I wonder if it would even go there.

Raquel Rosa:

Ooh, that’s a good point. Well, we’re all leaving tomorrow, so maybe somebody will give that a whirl. Oh, no.

Audio:

Almost there. Don’t forget your belongings.

Marcia Baldwin:

Nice.

Jack Rosen:

Okay. Thank you. Self-driving car for guesting on the pod.

Audio:

The doors will remain locked when we arrive. Pull the handle twice to exit. The first pull unlocks. The second opens the door.

Raquel Rosa:

Oh, it’s so cool.

Marcia Baldwin:

Okay, interesting.

Jack Rosen:

Is it?

Marcia Baldwin:

It’s letting us out here and not pulling into the hotel.

Jack Rosen:

Okay. Yep, all right that is it.

Audio:

Please make sure-

Jack Rosen:

Thank you.

Marcia Baldwin:

Thank you.

Jack Rosen:

All right, let’s take a, all right.

Michelle Bishop:

So cool. Totally not at all jealous that I wasn’t there when you guys got to ride the autonomous vehicle. That’s fine. No, it’s fine. I’m totally not jealous. It’s cool. Whatever. Anyway, moving on, Stephanie. Oh, no. Why do I do this to myself? Stephanie, do you have a joke for this episode?

Stephanie Flynt:

Yes, I do have a joke today and it’s a good one. Why don’t oysters donate to charity? Why don’t they donate to us?

Jack Rosen:

Why?

Stephanie Flynt:

Because they’re shellfish.

Raquel Rosa:

Oh my goodness.

Michelle Bishop:

I knew that answer!. I knew the answer to that one and I couldn’t get to on mute button, because my OneNote was blocking my Zoom. I’m so mad, I’m so mad.

Stephanie Flynt:

Maybe you’ll know next time.

Michelle Bishop:

All right.

Jack Rosen:

Thank you for listening to maybe the least organized episode of the PandA Pod ever.

Michelle Bishop:

Please do not email podcast@ndrn.org because I went into a Hulk-like rage the end of an episode. I’m here issue a formal apology. Stephanie, fabulous joke this month. Please don’t email us at podcast@ndrn.org. Jack, where can they follow us on social media?

Jack Rosen:

You can follow us on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook and LinkedIn, and you can now follow us on Threads, where every day I am annoying Mark Zuckerberg until he rolls out accessibility features.

Stephanie Flynt:

Woo-hoo.

Jack Rosen:

All right. Thank you folks. Until next time.