Michelle, Raquel, and Stephanie talk with Mia-Ives Rublee about the Disability Justice Movement. Then Stephanie sits down with Maddie Crowley from Disability Rights Florida, for a discussion about what it means to be LGBTQIA+ and a person with a disability.

Links:

Full transcript of this episode – https://www.ndrn.org/resource/pandapodjune23/

Ten Principals of Disability Justice – https://www.sinsinvalid.org/blog/10-principles-of-disability-justice

Transcript:

Jack Rosen:

All right. And welcome to the PandA Pod. We have a very special episode for you today. Oh, I don’t like “very special episode” given the topics we’re talking about. Makes it sound like an after-school special, but-

Michelle Bishop:

It sounds like an episode of Blossom or something.

Stephanie Flynt:

I just don’t like the term, special, anymore. It needs to go away.

Michelle Bishop:

If anyone of you knows what Blossom is?

Stephanie Flynt:

Who’s Blossom?

Jack Rosen:

Wait, no, it’s the Lady from the Big Bang Theory who’s now the host of Jeopardy, but-

Stephanie Flynt:

Oh, Amy! Amy Farrah Fowler. I know who that is.

Michelle Bishop:

Okay, she was Blossom first. See, this is why we can’t record episodes without Raquel, okay? Somebody else has to be as old as me and remember these things. I can’t just be out here on my own remembering 90s stuff without anyone to support me. We need Raquel. I can’t do this.

Stephanie Flynt:

All by myself. Okay, I’m done.

Michelle Bishop:

Okay. Episode is completely off the rails. First of all, what are we even talking about? And since when does Jack introduce the episode?

Stephanie Flynt:

I think Jack is like, “Oh, my God, just say words that I can edit.”

Michelle Bishop:

He’s so mad that we call him a producer and not a co-host, I feel he’s secretly seething about this and he is trying to take over the episode.

Stephanie Flynt:

Do you want to be a producer-host?

Jack Rosen:

That sounds like more work.

Stephanie Flynt:

Well, you’re already producing it, and you already say things. You’re already doing some of those things.

Michelle Bishop:

Welcome-

Stephanie Flynt:

You even came prepared with… Okay, sorry.

Michelle Bishop:

Welcome to the PandA Pod. This is not a very special episode because we don’t do that. I am one of your hosts, Michelle Bishop, Voter Access and Engagement Manager at the National Disability Rights Network.

Stephanie Flynt:

And I’m Stephanie Flynt, Public Policy Analyst here at the National Disability Rights Network.

Michelle Bishop:

Our third host, Raquel, is on vacation, and we are very happy for her about that. So, you’ll hear her a little later in the episode, but not right now. I think we do have a big announcement, Stephanie. We are supposed to make a shout-out to one of our loyal listeners.

Stephanie Flynt:

Yeah, yeah. Also, too, if you guys are interested or if you guys would like a shout-out, feel free to email us and we’ll take a poll on whether or not we actually want to shout you out. You can also use our email that I honestly forgot that we had until now, podcast@ndrn.org. It’s just the way that it sounds and is spelled. But the shout-out that we are going to give this week is to one of our very own who works at Disability Rights, Oregon, David Boyer, unless he’s moved and not told anybody.

Michelle Bishop:

Which is possible, but-

Stephanie Flynt:

Yes.

Michelle Bishop:

… Davy Boyer, thank you for listening, or if you use Stephanie’s screen reader, you’re Dave Boje.

Stephanie Flynt:

Boje, something like that. Boje, Boyay, so yeah.

Michelle Bishop:

Which is the same person except when he wears a fancy hat or speaks French.

Stephanie Flynt:

Yes, yes. I really want to see Dave Boyer speak French.

Michelle Bishop:

I was about to say, I don’t think he knows French, but as soon as I say that, I’m going to get a phone call or an email in French from him

Stephanie Flynt:

We’ll get an entire email, yes, in French from Dave. But yeah, thank you so much for being one of our awesome, loyal listeners, and your wish has been granted. And Nala was very upset that you were not at annual conference, but we understand that you have all the things and important things to do.

Michelle Bishop:

Nala is Stephanie’s service dog, if you don’t know Nala. And yay to our loyal listeners, we love you. Keep tuning in. And of course, also, shout-out to our producer, Jack Rosen. We appreciate you, Jack. I’m sorry we berate you every episode.

Stephanie Flynt:

Yes, bless your heart. You all, he really has to put up with a lot. I feel really bad for him because we have 15 minutes of prerecording, and sometimes he’s like, “Thank God I’m not recording this,” and then, sometimes he’s like, “I should have been recording this.” So, bless his heart. Thank you, Jack, for all that you do.

Michelle Bishop:

He just spends an inordinate amount of time listening to me and Stephanie and Raquel blabber about basically anything. So-

Stephanie Flynt:

Yes.

Michelle Bishop:

… we do appreciate you, Jack.

Jack Rosen:

Thank you, guys. And Michelle, why don’t you tell the folks why it’s a-

Michelle Bishop:

Don’t say very special-

Jack Rosen:

… special, not very special episode.

Michelle Bishop:

This episode of the podcast, we’re going to be talking about disability justice, the Disability Justice Movement. And if you’re thinking, “I’m pretty sure she means Disability Rights Movement,” I do not. We are going to be talking specifically about a newer wing of the movement called Disability Justice, which has a fresh new focus and is really about being much more inclusive and intersectional in our approach to disability rights work.

So, toward that end, we have an amazing interview for you today with the Disability Justice Initiative, which is part of the Center for American Progress.

Stephanie Flynt:

Yes, super excited to hear about this. I feel a lot of people, while in some ways they compliment each other, the Disability Justice and the Disability Rights Movement are things that we don’t always think about. I know that I personally have not always thought about disability justice always in the context of disability rights, and so I’m so excited to have the opportunity to listen through these interviews. But yes, totally excited, super excited. We are definitely looking forward to hearing about this movement and to hearing about this unique perspective. I feel I learned something new every single episode. And yeah, I am super excited to keep on learning, and I hope that all of you listeners continue to share that sentiment. So, yeah.

Raquel Rosa:

Mia Ives-Rublee is the director for the Disability Justice Initiative at the Center for American Progress. Prior, she has worked with Families Belong Together, DC Action Lab, Adoptees for Justice, Fair Fight, People’s Collective for Justice and Liberation, and numerous political campaigns. At the Foreign Foundation, in 2019, Ives Rublee created a disability-inclusion toolkit for nonprofit organizations.

But Mia is perhaps best known for founding the Women’s March, the Disability Caucus, and helping to organize the original Women’s March on Washington in 2017. She was named by Glamour Magazine as one of 2017’s Women of the Year by She the People as one of 20 women of Color in politics to watch in 2020, and awarded the 2019 Distinguished Alumni Award from the University of North Carolina’s School of Social Work.

Mia holds a bachelor’s degree in sociology from the University of Illinois at Urban Champaign, and a master’s degree in social work from the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill. Welcome, Mia. Super excited to have you on the podcast this month.

Mia Ives-Rublee:

So glad to be here.

Raquel Rosa:

Again, thank you so much for joining us. Would you mind starting off by telling us what the Disability Justice Movement is?

Mia Ives-Rublee:

Yeah. The Disability Justice Movement or framework was actually something that was developed by a group of black, brown, queer, and trans people, included people like Patty Burn, Mia Mingus, Stacey Melbrom, Leroy Moore Jr., Eli Claire and Sebastian Margot. And what they did was they saw that there’s a difficulty in really being able to focus on some of the most impacted folks within the disability community.

So, they created, basically, a structure or a framework that was able to look at how disability and ableism relates to other forms of oppression and identity. And it requires an understanding that disability is an identity that cannot be siloed away from other identities because there are disabled people with multiple marginalized identities.

Michelle Bishop:

Mia, could you talk to us a bit about how Disability Justice relates to what we would call the old-school Disability Rights Movement?

Mia Ives-Rublee:

Yeah. The old-school Disability Rights Movement was focused pretty much solely around accessibility accommodations and education, employment. The problem was that it was very white-centered or it utilizes a white lens to address a lot of the problems that were impacting the disability community.

And I think that a lot of people who didn’t fit that framework, including women, including folks who identify as trans or LGBTQ or were black, brown, Asian, all of these individuals didn’t feel a lot of the issues that they were impacted by, including things like criminal justice, reproductive healthcare access, et cetera, were actually being addressed by the Disability Rights Movement.

So, they wanted to create a structural understanding and a movement towards a collective liberation, so an understanding that disability was a part of an identity, but it wasn’t a single part, and that all of these individuals needed to be collectively together to work towards change that would actually work in tangent with other justice movements, including issues around racial justice, around reproductive justice, et cetera.

So, it followed a lot along the lines of those justice movements in saying, “Look, we’re not addressing the full pantheon of issues that affect particularly marginalized communities. So, how can we make sure that we address them and create more of a community and a collective liberation?”

Raquel Rosa:

Mia, on that point, can you tell us a bit more about the 10 principles of Disability justice that guide this movement?

Mia Ives-Rublee:

Yeah. Again, I’ve got to give props to the group that really started and helped put together this framework. I think a lot of individuals who don’t understand disability justice actually don’t know that there are these 10 principles. A lot of people utilize disability rights and disability justice interchangeably, not understanding that there’s actually a structure and a framework for disability justice that one has to go and utilize in order to be truly and faithfully towards what this group of individuals created.

So, there’s 10 principles, and the first principle is intersectionality. It’s a term that, again, much like disability justice is being utilized in a lot of different ways that it wasn’t intended to be utilized as, the term was developed by Kimberly Crenshaw who is a sociologist and a law professor who was looking at the perspective of black women and their experiences with not only racism, but also sexism, and how those can interlink to each other, not as in, this is a checkbox of, oh, this person has this and this, it’s saying, how do these systems interact with each other and create a unique experience for black women?

Luckily, that terminology and that understanding was expanding by her as she was hearing the experiences of other individuals, including the disability community. So, one of the principles, intersectionality, is an understanding, much like Andrew Lloyd who also has a disability, stated, “We do not live single issue lives and we don’t experience things in a single issue way.”

So, it talks about how ableism is coupled with all of these other isms and talks about white supremacy and capitalism and heteropatriarchy, et cetera, and tries to explain how individuals, who are marginalized, experience the world in a different manner that can degrade or negate their ability to interact with the world in a fair manner.

So, the second principle is leadership of the most impacted, which is pretty much what it says right there. It’s stating that a lot of times we create these movements, but they’re often led by people who aren’t actually the ones that are being affected by the issue. Take disability rights, a lot of disability rights fight has been actually done by parents who are not impacted, or the Disability Rights Movement is often led by white men.

So, what the Disability Justice Movement says is, “No, we don’t want that to happen anymore. We actually want the people who are most marginalized, people who are black, people who are queer, et cetera, to be the ones that are leading the charge, particularly on specific areas within the disability community, leading the conversation and leading the discussion around what should change.” So, that’s leadership of the most impacted.

The third area is an anti-capitalist politic, and this is where a lot of people get tripped up. So, an anti-capitalist politic is an understanding that ableism actually stems from capitalism. So, in an economy that basically puts a dollar amount on your ability to commodify yourself, we can’t overtake ableism unless we talk about the intrinsic problems with capitalism and the fact that, if you have a non-conforming body or mind that can’t “produce”, then you are always going to be seen as less-than in a society that runs on capitalism.

The next principle is commitment to cross movement organizing. I think this is something that we’ve seen has been a difficulty in the disability community. And I don’t think it’s just because the disability community doesn’t want to interact with the group or other movements. I think it’s both the inner and outer forces that are causing disability to often be siloed on its own.

And some of that has to do with the fact that a lot of times the Disability Rights Movement doesn’t really address the issues that multi-marginalized communities face, like, we’re not great at talking about the criminal justice system, we’re not great talking about reproductive justice issues. So, that often leaves us siloed.

And I think that what Disability Justice wants for folks to do is learn how to work amongst each other and not just be allies, but be comrades and be co-conspirators so that you’re not working isolated, and that you’re working amongst lots and lots of issues so that you can collaborate and create power through solidarity.

The next principle is interdependence. I think this is a really important key part, and I think it goes towards the last principle, which is collective liberation as well. And it’s an understanding that we have to meet each other’s needs in order to build towards liberation. So, it’s an understanding that we have to help each other out within the community.

I think a lot of times, what happens is, we get caught up in life, and sometimes we forget that we should be giving back to our community, we should be counting on one another to build community and to build that trust and to build resources within our community so that we can be stronger and so that we can build towards liberation.

The next principle is collective access, which basically, it relates to the interdependence and collective liberation, which is an understanding that we need to be in community with each other, and that we need to provide access to one another. So, if I gain access to something, I should keep the door open for all others to be able to gain access to similar resources that I had access to. So, it’s a collectivism ideal of sharing.

Then, collective liberation, of course, is saying that nobody should be left behind, and that is pretty self-explanatory, I believe, in that we can’t get liberation without ensuring that everybody is liberated and we can’t create a revolution and more equality if we don’t collectively do it.

Then, I think I did miss one of them, which was a commitment to cross-disability solidarity, which I think is extremely needed, particularly in the fact that so many of our disability organizations right now are so focused on one specific disability or the other.

We have disability orgs that are just focused on physical disabilities, and then we have some orgs that are just focused on chronic illnesses, or another that is just focused on intellectual disabilities.

And the problem is that we’ve unfortunately created a bit of an unbalance of powers within the disability community where individuals who particularly have developmental or intellectual disabilities, or mental health disabilities, don’t feel they’re part of the community. And I’m sure that stems from a lot of different things, including our own internal ableism.

But what this calls for is to understand that we can’t fight for one disability and think that we’re going to get our rights restored or have access to our rights, we need to build it for all of our community. So, that’s the basics for Disability Justice.

Michelle Bishop:

Mia, if our listeners want to learn more or get involved in the movement, where should they start?

Mia Ives-Rublee:

That’s a great question, and I think, for me, whenever I’m trying to learn about a new subject is, I try and go to the source. I try and find out more about it. And I really do believe that doing your reading, learning about the history of disability justice, reading from the individuals who develop disability justice is another great thing. Read the principles, read the essays that these individuals have written about disability justice, and do your homework.

I know it sounds boring, but I think that’s one of the best ways to get started, and then get involved in organizations that utilize a disability justice lens, and continue thinking about how to build more inclusive environments and communities that really instill some of these principles within them.

Michelle Bishop:

Thank you so much, Mia, for spending time with us and for giving us so much food for thoughts. I think, when we look at the Disability Justice Movement, the Disability Rights Movement, there’s a lot to unpack, and I feel that you’ve really enlightened us today with how we can deepen our advocacy, deepen our alliance with disabled people of color who belong to myriad communities. Thank you so much for being with us today. You’re the best. Thank you. Thank you, thank you.

Mia Ives-Rublee:

I’m so glad that you invited me on today.

Stephanie Flynt:

Awesome. Well, that was a super enlightening interview. I know that I learned a whole lot about the Disability Justice Movement, and I hope that all of you got to learn something new today as well. And we have a special treat coming up. I had the privilege of having an awesome, super enlightening conversation with Maddie Crowley.

They are the social media and content specialists for Disability Rights, Florida, and we both got to talk about our experiences of being LGBTQIA and multiple disabled. And I hope that you guys find this enlightening and hopefully enjoy this conversation as much as we enjoyed having it. So, yeah, here is our conversation with Maddie.

All right. We have come to the part of the episode where we have our spotlight story, and I and we are all in for a very special treat today. I’m super excited to have Maddie from Disability Rights Florida with us today. Maddie, introduce yourself to the people.

Maddie Crowley:

Hi. Thank you so much for having me. Hi, everyone. My name is Maddie. I use they, them, or she, her pronouns. I’m a non-binary white person, identify as multiple disabled within the LGBTQ community, and I’m comfortable with a lot of different identities, whether it’s lesbian, queer, your batch of identities. But yeah, I’m really excited to be here and chatting with you all and look forward to talking.

Stephanie Flynt:

Yeah, of course. And we are so excited to have you here. As most of us know, or as all of us know, June is Pride Month, super exciting time of year, super different time of year considering all the things that are going on. But today we really want to talk a lot about, it’s interesting, I was talking with Maddie before we started recording, and I was like, “We are totally twinsies,” because we both identify as LGBTQ and multiple disabled.

And it’s one of those things where we’ve seen that there are a lot of folks who are LGBTQ and disabled, and yet, a lot of the times we see that in the LGBTQ community accessibility isn’t always prioritized.

Maddie Crowley:

Yeah, for sure. I think that’s one of the… I enjoy Pride Month. I’ve actually yet to go to an actual Pride celebration, but I hope one year I’m able to-

Stephanie Flynt:

Yes.

Maddie Crowley:

Yeah, that’s actually one of my disappointments within the LGBTQ space as a space that prides itself on being inclusive and welcoming of all genders and sexualities and walks of life. Oftentimes, folks with disabilities don’t have the access to participate fully in their LGBTQ+ identities in that space because of inaccessibility and barriers and a lack of inclusion planning for LGBTQ folks with disabilities.

So, it’s something that I really hope will change with time, and I think it already has gotten better, and some folks have become more aware of disability accessibility and identity, but definitely has much more to go.

Stephanie Flynt:

Yeah, absolutely. And I totally agree. And I think a part of that is, and I’m not saying this is everyone, but I think that a lot of the LGBTQ community doesn’t necessarily think about this first. Usually, when you are thinking about how to make things inclusive of everyone, unfortunately, disability is usually on the back burner, just in general. I don’t think that it’s anybody trying to purposefully discount disability.

But when we talk about accessibility, it’s such a broad term, whether it be physical accessibility to an establishment that caters mostly to LGBTQ patrons, whether it’s accessibility in terms of folks with sensory disabilities, whether it’s accessibility in terms of ASL being offered at different shows, and that sort of thing, it’s something that I think some people, and I totally agree with you there, I feel a lot of people are now starting to think more about it because there is a lot more education around it. So, that’s definitely been great to see. And as Bob Dylan says, “The times, they are a changing.”

Maddie Crowley:

No, definitely. And I think, something else we were chatting a bit about was just some of the violent histories of folks within disability communities, but also the LGBT communities. They’ve kind of been weaponized against each other by folks in power. So, LGBTQ folks were medicalized as having mental illnesses or being disabled to justify different laws or different barriers or a whole host of things.

Then, the opposite way, sometimes people automatically think, if you’re disabled, you’re have a host of other marginalized identities, because I don’t know, people just have a way of just automatically assuming the worst about people, and not that being LGBTQ or disabled is a bad thing at all. I think there’s just a lot of historical overlap that makes bridging the communities a bit difficult, because rightfully so, there’s a lot of harm that needs to be worked through and discussed.

Stephanie Flynt:

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that there are a lot of people, particularly those who are anti-LGBTQ, that are just looking for something to blame in terms of somebody being LGBTQ and to justify the “choice” of that person. So, when they’re looking at that, they’re like, “Oh, well, it’s because they’re disabled.” I’m a blind woman, and I have been told that, “Oh, well, the reason you don’t like men is because you can’t see how attractive they are,” and I just-

Maddie Crowley:

Wow. Yeah.

Stephanie Flynt:

Yeah, it’s nauseating. It’s nauseating. Well, one thing that I’m definitely very curious to know, and I’m sure our listeners are very curious to know, because a lot of us have our own connotations of what pride particularly means to each and every one of us. So, I was wondering if you would mind telling the people what does Pride mean to you specifically?

Maddie Crowley:

That’s such a wonderful question, and honestly, something I’ll, transparently, sometimes reconcile a lot with, because I didn’t identify within the LGBTQ community until a few years ago, so I’m still navigating that space personally and understanding who I am. And I came out as queer earlier on, then, non-binary leader. So, it’s just understanding who I am, and then, further, becoming a part of the community as I’ve been ready to or comfortable in myself.

But I think, pride, to me, is that process and how LGBTQ folks hold each other in that process because every person in the community will tell you that coming out or navigating cis hetero patriarchy is a huge struggle. And I think, just the community’s ability to hold people and knew people within the community is something I’m really proud about, because that’s a huge form of love that I’ve been able to accept and experience in the time that I’ve navigated my identities.

And I think pride in that vein is ever-evolving. I think your experience with how you identify and how you relate to others and find communities ever-changing. So, I think pride for me is just that whole experience of community.

Stephanie Flynt:

Absolutely. And a community that encourages each other, supports each other. I remember “coming out” officially on Facebook a few years back, and I just remember getting different messages from folks going, “Love and support. I’m so excited for you. Welcome to the other side,” in that sense. But people are so quick to just say, “Hey, come out when you’re ready. Do what you need to do when you’re ready, and we will be here to welcome you with open arms.”

And really and truly, for what it’s worth, for me at least, I’ve noticed that being queer and disabled, I feel I’m just on this journey of self-discovery. And to be honest with you, I don’t think that’s ever going to change. So, I’m just along for the ride.

Maddie Crowley:

No, I agree. And I think that’s something that, to the beginning of the conversation, that a lot of people may find uncomfortable and maybe not be able to understand because some people are just so concrete and firm in their identities that they may feel discomfort in it being ever-changing, but I think because disability is always changing. Your experience within your body or acquiring a disability or whatever it may be, that’s ever-changing in the same way sexuality and gender can.

And I think that’s a really cool experience that disabled queer folks get to talk about and share space with each other about that maybe non-disabled LGBTQ folks can’t necessarily connect to in that same way.

Stephanie Flynt:

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Well, thank you so much for sharing your perspective. I know that I have thoroughly enjoyed our conversation today. I know that our listeners will get a lot out of this. And yeah, happy Pride. Hopefully you’ll get to go to a Pride celebration soon. I will say, there’s nothing like your first Pride celebration. Always fun, always a joy. But yeah, thank you so much for joining us today.

Maddie Crowley:

Thank you. It was great to be on.

Michelle Bishop:

That was awesome, Maddie. Thank you so much for sharing your story. Has been a very special episode? No, no, I’m not going to say that, I’m not going to say that. But it is June, which means we thank everyone who came out for our annual conference. We were in Phoenix, Arizona earlier this month. It was amazing to see you.

Thank you to Mia for talking to us about the Disability Justice Movement. If that’s not something that you’re currently using in your framework as a P&A about how you think about the work that we do, we’d love to put you in touch with folks like Mia to talk about it more. Also, just happy Pride month, everyone.

Stephanie Flynt:

Woo-hoo, happy Pride, guys!

Michelle Bishop:

Oh, no, Stephanie, do you still have a joke this month?

Stephanie Flynt:

Of course, I do. I have Pride in my jokes, so who’s ready for this one?

Michelle Bishop:

I’m not, but go for it.

Stephanie Flynt:

Okay. So, there are two terms to describe a dog who like to take bath. What are they? Anyone want to guess?

Jack Rosen:

A pool-noodle-retriever?

Stephanie Flynt:

You’re close in some respects. So, one of the terms is a shaampoodle, and then the other term is a Bath-it Hound.

Michelle Bishop:

Oh, man. Oh…

Stephanie Flynt:

Oh, man, this is the best part of the episode where I get to laugh at my own jokes. Hopefully you guys find them as funny as I do.

Michelle Bishop:

Without Raquel here to give you that polite laughter she does every time you tell a joke?

Stephanie Flynt:

I know, I know. Well, Jack, you’re just going to have to do that in Raquel’s place. But yeah, I think that that is all that we have for this episode. If you guys are wanting a shout-out similar to David Boyer’s, feel free to email us @podcastndrn.org, or you can use our personal email addresses if you’re that interconnected with us. But until then, see you all in July. Bye.

Michelle Bishop:

I think he only answers to Boje now. But also, guys, we promise not to record any more episodes without Raquel. It just goes off the rails way too fast. Thanks everybody. We’ll see you next month.

Jack Rosen:

And you can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram at NDRAdvocates. And you can follow us on LinkedIn at National Disability Rights Network, as well as check out our website, www.ndrn.org. Until next time, see you folks.