[10:30] It was a large criminal case at the time involving bribes and other things of government officials. Lauren Maltese, I think it was her name. Yeah, I remember the case. She was a politician, and he was involved in some fashion. It was a big story at the time. But these two guys were very good guys. And I would break bread with them. We’d eat meals and just talk. But they never really talked about their days, you know, mob things. I mean, that was just, it was not really a focus.

[11:04] And I didn’t probe, you know, whatever they wanted to talk about was fine with me. But really nice guys, though. I mean, I really enjoyed my time with them. And, you know, I’m a Jewish guy. They’re Italian guys. So we have a lot in common with our personalities, I think, too. It meshed well. But Jerry was really the closest relationship, I would say, I had with these guys. And it continues today. I just talked to him within a week. In the last week, I talked to him. One of the things about him is he helps a lot of guys who are coming out who need help. You know, need a car, need a, you know, he connects them with people, housing. He’s just very, I mean, the people he cared about, I’m saying. But he’s very helpful in that way. He wants to be, so. Yeah, I’ve seen that here in Kansas City. I have a friend that got out. He did about 12 years himself, and we’ve become friends after he got out. And I watched him do the same thing. He’s always a guy got out after a 25 year bit for murder here in the state system. But he was he was Italian. These are all Italian guys. And he was Italian when he got out and he found he found two different jobs for him because the first job didn’t work out and and got him lined up with a car. And and he’s always counseling about, you know, now don’t you know, he’s really watching out because he sees him get involved with a guy that he shouldn’t get involved with. that he’ll go warn him off, say, you know, stay away from that guy and stay over here. So that’s, that’s interesting how these guys help each other out.

[12:31] Yeah. And I, and I, uh, one, one of the things that I, um, uh, I was working with Jerry with, uh, from time to time, he would bring me individuals who needed help on criminal appeals or any type of legal matter. And that’s what I was doing in prison. I still do. I still do a lot of, uh, uh, helping of federal inmates primarily on post-conviction appeal work. And I do so very reasonably. The money’s not really the focus at all for me because I have a full-time job. I do this in my free time, try to be helpful, compassionate release motions and these type of things. So if any of your viewers know of anyone who needs help, I’d be happy to be of assistance. Okay, all right. You could share my information with them. I’ll put a, is there some kind of a link? Do you have a website or anything? I can put a link down in the show notes or? Yeah, I’ll provide. I’ll just have them. They can just get a hold of me too, and I can hook them up with you. Yeah, if they know of anyone who’s in a federal prison situation and they still have some time left and they want to try to file some type of motion to lessen that amount of time in prison, I’d like to be helpful. So what kind of job did Jerry have when he was in prison? It seemed like he’s the kind of guy that works his way around where he’s going to be in some kind of a management position.

[13:44] No, he was just teaching the courses. That was it. Teaching okay yeah otherwise he had what they call a no-show job yeah yeah so he stayed connected inside uh he the uh he was it was well thought out well respected he never talked he very humble very humble guy humble guy very humble humble man yeah yeah very capable guy and uh and like i say i mean it’s very intelligent let’s say of all the gentlemen i met.

[14:14] Uh, in those, you know, almost 11 years, by far, Jerry was the most interesting. I also met Art, by the way. I think I mentioned to you, I met Art. Yeah, you did. I happened to be at the halfway house with Art. So. What kind of a guy was he? He, was he that smart? He was very, very quiet, actually. Yeah. Very quiet at that stage. You know, I mean, he was probably 77, 77 at that point. Yeah. You know, that, I’m always curious that last crime that he did. Part of it was robbing the armored car, but the other one that they caught him, set him up on, was he was going to break in, do a home invasion robbery, if you will, of Angelo LaPietra, one of his old boss’s house, because he thought that his widow would have a whole lot of jewels and stuff somewhere hidden in the house. Now, I tell you what, I’ve always tried to figure that one out. I think LaPietre must have stiffed him on something years before.

[15:21] You’re thinking something must have happened. Something had to happen. I’m sure he didn’t talk about that. He would never talk about that kind of business with you.

[15:30] But what would be your speculation on that? Did he ever even intimate anything about that? I mean, it was such an out-of-bounds, over-the-top crime that he did. Right. No, never a word, but I think your logic and how you’re thinking it through makes sense. But no, no. These guys, I mean, they wouldn’t bring up any of those things. I mean, certainly not with me, but I mean, we just had regular conversations about what’s happening today and just life in general. I mean, we really didn’t talk about the past. Yeah. Could you tell those mob connections, those, you know, that it’s almost like we’re both from the same small town or something, those mob connections between these guys? Well, let me say this to you. I will say this, and this is where I had the most, the highest regard. I think art would fall into that category, too. But one of the themes that I saw in prison with the mob guys were they carried themselves a certain way and they all hung out together, et cetera. But Jerry was different. Jerry was on his own. Jerry was his own guy. He didn’t hang out with anybody. But I had total respect for that. Because really, he was the biggest of all of them. These mob guys were very oftentimes narrow and minded, in my view, on who they would approve of who people talked to. Let me say that. And Jerry’s attitude was, I don’t give a damn. I’ll talk to what you want to talk to.

[16:58] And I don’t care. And, you know, I just had a lot of respect for him, you know, in that regard, you know, he didn’t, he didn’t play by the general prison rules or I got to do what these mob guys are telling me, you know, I mean, it just, he was his own man. And I always, I had great respect for him in that regard. Guys from other families from New York, for example. Yeah, there were. They hang together in Chicago. And he, he was, and by the way, those guys, they all knew Jerry. Yeah. Jerry, Jerry. No, Jerry was very respectful still of them, but he didn’t hang out with them, really. But he did have a lot of friends, but they were not those guys. So it was interesting. Yeah, it is. My friend was in, and he said the New York mob guys always acted like they were a little bit better than anybody, any of the other mob guys. A hundred percent. That’s absolutely true. They thought they were a different kind of mob guy. Yeah. No, I think that’s well said. Yeah. You know, because there was a whole group of Chicago guys and there were the New York guys and the New York guys kind of frowned on the Chicago guys a little bit thinking, oh, you’re from a small town type of thing. Yeah. I met some Philly guys too at Loretto, Philadelphia. Oh, really? I mean, you learn a lot about life in prison. I’m not thrilled I was there, but I mean, it does give you a perspective on life you could never possibly have otherwise. That’s for sure.

[18:16] No question. Give us, what would be an example of that that then has worked for you in your life on the outside? I just think, and I don’t know if this is the right term, but I just think I, when I look at the average person now who’s never gone through a lot of what I’ve gone through. Yeah. I just think that they, in a sense, they lived a sheltered, I don’t want to say naive. Yeah. But you’ve lived such a more sheltered life than what was my life beforehand, let’s say. Mm-hmm. Just living in the North shore of Chicago with all my Jewish contingent of friends. I really didn’t live. And in a strange way, being in prison all those years and what I saw and what I went through, I saw everything. I mean, I saw a full range of life. I mean, I was with people from Africa. I was with people from everywhere. I mean, that, and you, you know, and I spent a lot of time talking to these people and it just gives you a perspective and a certain understanding of life in such a different way than what I had lived, which was just such a more narrow, confined life. It’s not to say I’m glad I went through it, but I, there is a positive to it. As much as there’s a, it was the worst part of your, in time of your life, there were also positives.

[19:31] Because I had a long sentence, but I mean, when I’m spending time with a guy like Jerry, mine was nothing. Yeah. You know, so I mean, he’s some, I spent time with he and some other guys who, I mean, they were spending 25 to 40 years in prison throughout their life. Yeah. I can’t even imagine. You know, so I just, you know, so mine seemed like a pittance, which puts you in a different mindset then.

[19:55] You know what, there’s a common theme that you’ll hear from guys who’ve done a lot of time and it’s the, at the most annoying thing is to listen to the guys who do a year or two and are complaining, you know, life is over and, and what are we supposed to think when we have decades, you know?

[20:11] But the guys who have decades were the tougher mentally, were the tougher mentally prepared guys in many ways. So he’s not, he’s not working anywhere now. He’s a little bit long. Yeah, I’m not going to disclose where he lives just because that’s a personal thing. Yeah, I understand. No, no. I mean, he’s not on a regular basis. He’s still the similar, very involved person with a lot of different projects, but work per se, like on a regular basis, no. I would like to see him. I’d like to see the story of his life, him and Art. I think that would be a heck of a… Well, maybe I’ll try to set him up with a call with you off the record. A heck of a buddy movie. I don’t call with him. Yeah, I mean, I don’t know. That would be a heck of a buddy movie, those two guys, and the Marlboro Diamond. And then, you know, a little postscript, you know, when they come back out and then they get caught in this other thing. They called him the, I can’t remember the headline, it’s something about the senior citizen. Gang or something like that.

[21:15] I mean, you just, you can’t make that stuff up that Jerry Scalise did in his life. You cannot make that up. No, it would make, it would make a great movie and, uh, certainly a book. He’s talked about a book as well, but no, it’s his, his life story is fascinating. It would be a fascinating read and watch. That’s for sure. I’m sure he’s probably, he’s got connections with Michael Mann. He’d have plenty of people that, uh, would join in and really write it with him because there’s, That’s the way most of those guys write books is they, you know, scribble out their story, but then you have the professional writer that’ll come in and actually do it. Exactly. But anyway, so no, I really appreciated the time spent with you. And, you know, I don’t know that I have much else to say unless you’re interested in hearing more about my life, but it’s kind of boring compared to Jerry’s. Well, tell me about your transition out and then we’ll end this. I’m curious about that. Been challenging in many ways i talk about that quite often because uh when you’ve done over a decade in prison it does it does have an impact i mean most of us who’ve done that kind of time you know we’re to various extents um mentally impacted by psychologically impacted by that.

[22:28] Because it’s such a different life it’s such a regimented life where you’re doing the same things in a controlled environment for so long um that the term institutionalization is very real how that impacts people differs from person to person as you can imagine yeah i i speak to it in a sense of feeling out of sorts oftentimes it’s not a good feeling but yet i’m not unhappy it’s just that um, It’s been challenging for me, but, uh, you know, I, I, I was very fortunate to, uh, secure very good employment, which, uh, you know, I’m doing very well now with that. And just being with your family, you know, is everything after coming out of this and that’s the support I had. So that’s still there. And, um, I lost my father, uh, very early on, uh, my first year, but everybody else is healthy and doing well. And my daughter recently got married. I was able to walk down the aisle with her, which is interesting. So, I mean, it’s just, you have to look at the positives. I also had a serious case of cancer in prison, which was a difficult time to get it, but I got through it. And so, yeah, you count your blessings also, of course. Wow. Which I do. Yeah. Well, the old stoic philosophy, you know, control what you can and let the rest go. And that’s how people survive situations like that, whether you were a prisoner of war or whether you’re a prisoner of your own devices in a way.

[23:58] And when you first come out, that’s just got to be overwhelming. It was, really was. And in that time, cell phones and computers, the world changed so much that how does one adapt to those changes? Well, and then when I came out, COVID just started, too. Oh, wow. Yeah. You know, I got out and, you know, was able to move into private housing in October. And, you know, two months later, COVID begins. So then everybody’s locked up. Yeah, there you are, locked up again. All the other type of lockup, right? So that was mentally draining just in terms of, boy, here we go again, in a sense, you know, so.

[24:41] Plus, there was such an element of fear. those early days of COVID just didn’t know what was going to happen. I mean, I remember walking out and walking up the street and going across a really, really busy street and you could shoot a shotgun down it and not end anything. It was just like, wow, this is like apocalyptic. This is the end of the world as we know it. So it was, it’d be quite a time to come back out of the penitentiary and have all that freedom too. That would, you know, that freedom just got to be overwhelming cars and getting your driver’s license again and doing all those little things. And as a, federal system they don’t really have to have much to help a prisoner reintegrate almost nothing i’m actually teaching courses now with the hinda institute and here in chicago uh-huh uh to that are on many tablets going into the prisons on how to best prepare for reintegration and release.

[25:34] And no they do nothing i mean as a practical matter virtually zero i mean it’s uh but even the more troubling thing is the psychology departments at these prisons are non-existent, they’re not helping people with real issues i mean uh so that you know the chance of uh re-offending is still great with many of these individuals so it’s just uh it’s a terrible cycle it just is and uh a lot of it is now resource driven now with the trump administration, even they’re losing people every day now yeah yeah so it’s even getting you know so it could because I, like I say, I do a lot of legal work for these inmates. They’re telling me they’re locked down on weekends generally as a rule. Now, when I say lockdown, essentially equivalent to being in the shoe all weekend. So, I mean, it’s just not good. It’s not good period, but it’s particularly bad of late, you know, with a lot of what’s happening with even more severe lack of funding being provided to the prisons. Now you don’t even have a director of the federal Bureau of Prisons in place. I think there is an interim now, but recently there was no one. So it’s very difficult. So then whenever you get there to a new prison, you have this whole pecking order and this whole adjustment and figuring out what your place is and who

[26:51] you can trust and not trust. It’s got to be. Yeah, for me, it was very difficult.

[26:57] Easy in a sense, because like I say, when they found out I was a lawyer and of course I, I, I went ahead and did this. I just told everybody quick. Yeah. No, I just became very busy helping people. And that became my thing because, and in a way for me, that was very good. My time went fast and I wasn’t a person to watch a lot of TV or read a book every day. I could read a lot, but not like that. I had a roommate once, by the way, he read a book a day. He sat in the room literally and read a 200-page book every day. Now, he was only in for a year or two. Yeah. But I mean, that’s a lot of reading. I couldn’t do it. I couldn’t do it. I mean, but anyways, but for me, it worked out. It worked out. It kept me, you know, relatively intellectually fit and stimulated and, you know, keeping up with the law and, you know, I was busy. I mean, I had full-time typists doing the work. The typists were making more money than I was. They loved it, the typists, the legalists. Now, how does that money thing work inside the, behind it? Either, either you’re doing it for barter, for commissary, meaning the store, the store, people are getting groceries. And that’s really what I did. But then occasionally they could send money on the, you know, their families could send money to your family or to a friend or on the outside.

[28:16] You didn’t run into any problems anybody trying to extort you, did you? Never. Yeah. Never once. That does happen. But it never happened to me. No. And you know why? Probably not with me because I wasn’t dealing with any, I wasn’t charging much of anything. Yeah. So there wasn’t really, I had a reputation of not, you know, nobody would like think I was being involved in meaningful money with that situation. Yeah. And I wasn’t, so, you know. You were just doing a good job for a reasonable amount of money. I was trying. I was trying to give some guys hope when the reality is there’s very little, even in the legal system, I’m saying. The chances of victory are so slim. But if you have some hope, it’s still worth trying.

[29:04] Gary, thank you so much for having me. It was a joy. And I will speak to Jerry for sure. Okay. Thank you, David. Nice talking to you. You have a great day. Thank you. All right. All right.

[29:15] Hey guys, this is a, that was a fun show. I really like talking with that guy. You learned a lot of stuff that you didn’t know before. I think, uh, don’t forget, I like to ride motorcycles. So when you’re out on the streets there and you’re big F one 50, watch out for those little motorcycles. When you’re out, if you have a problem with PTSD and you’ve been in the service, be sure and go to the VA website and they’ll help you with your drugs and alcohol problem. If you got that problem or gambling, if not, You can go to Anthony Ruggiano. He’s a counselor down in Florida. He’s got a hotline on his YouTube page or his Facebook, not Facebook, but his website. If you’ve got a problem with gambling, most states will have, if you have gambling, most states will have a hotline number to call. Just have to search around for it. You know, I’ve always got stuff to sell. I got my books. I got my movies that are all on Amazon just going. And I got links down below in the show notes and just go to my Amazon sales page and you can figure out what to do. I really appreciate y’all tuning in and we’ll keep coming back and doing this. Thanks, guys.