In this episode of Gangland Wire, retired Kansas City Police Intelligence Unit Detective Gary Jenkins engages former FBI agent Fred Graessle, who shares insights from his thirty-year career with the Bureau. They discuss Graessle’s early experiences in Cleveland during a tumultuous period of organized crime, focusing on significant cases such as the violent conflicts involving Italian and Irish mobs.

Fred tells the famous story about the stolen informant list how it contained the name of John Curley Montana, and how this information forced Jimmy the Weasel Fratianno in as a cooperating witness.

Fred recounts the chilling details of John Curly Montana’s involvement with the kidnapping and murder of businessman Henry Podborny, illustrating the complexities of criminal conspiracies and the challenges of law enforcement. The episode also highlights the importance of informants, the rigorous investigative work required, and the collaboration among law enforcement in tackling organized crime, offering listeners a fascinating glimpse into federal investigations.

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Transcript

Welcome to Gangland Wire

[0:03]Gangland Wire. I am retired Kansas City Police Intelligence Unit, Detective Gary Jenkins. I even got promoted to sergeant before I left and went back to the intelligence unit for a period of time. Now I’ve turned podcasters, y’all know. And I have one of my many great expert former FBI agents. You know, we’ve had a lot of them on here today. It’s Fred Grassley. Fred, welcome. Thank you very much, Gary. Now, Fred, did I get your last name pronounced right? It’s Graessle. But anything close to that will work. Call me anything but late for dinner, right? I’m notorious for butchered names, as these guys know. Anyhow, Fred, Fred and I had a meeting not too long ago for lunch, and he had gotten hold of me. He’s retired out of the Cleveland office or Northwest Indiana office. I can’t remember which office you retired out of. Northwest Indiana. Northwest Indiana. And he moved to Kansas City, retired to Kansas City as a company. So I’m going to let Fred tell you a little bit about his background and his career in the FBI and a little bit of post-FBI, because I think that’s got to be interesting. So, Fred, tell us about yourself.

[1:21]Sure. I went to Indiana University and got a degree in accounting specifically to qualify myself to be an FBI agent. That was something I wanted to do ever since I was a small child. I graduated in 1973, went into public accounting for a couple of years, passed the CPA exam, and applied with the Bureau and got in pretty quickly in August of 1975 and was a special agent. For 30 years during that point in time. I spent my first 10 years.

[1:56]For you guys that don’t know, that was the route, one of the three routes into the FBI back in those days. Back at that time. They’ve added language skills since then, I think. But to be a lawyer or an accountant or a former law enforcement with two or three, four years of experience was the route to go in the FBI. So that’s correct.

[2:18]Anyhow, go ahead, Fred. I’m sorry to interrupt you. I spent my first 10 years in Cleveland, and that’s where this story is going to take place. But I spent the last 20 years in Northwest Indiana, first in Gary, Indiana, and then we moved out of Gary into Merrillville, Indiana. Northwest Indiana being one of the most violent and corrupt areas in the country. I got there in 1985. In the 1990s, Gary was the murder capital of the United States for four of the 10 years of the 90s. They were always in the top five. It’s just a very, very violent location. Perfect place for an FBI agent to work. Lots of great, great work in that area. And then I retired in 2005. I started my own forensic CPA firm as soon as I retired. And I started the firm initially in Indiana. I joined one of my clients for about a six-year stint. I was the vice president of franchise relations of a company by the name of Direct Buy. It was a consumer buying club throughout North America. And I also acquired the Kansas City territory for direct buy, which is what brought me out to direct buy or brought me out to Kansas City in the first place. And so my family and I moved out here. I kept flying back and forth to Northwest Indiana for the corporate headquarters, but we operated the club here for about

[3:41]

Fred Graessle’s FBI Journey

[3:38]six years and then ended up selling the club. I reopened my forensic CPA firm and I’ve been representing clients ever since.

[3:47]Most of my clients, in fact, all of my clients end up are victims of crimes in one form or another.

[3:55]All right. So any of you guys that have a company and you think you might be a victim of a financial cryboy, here’s a contact for you. Just get hold of me. If you can’t figure out him, I’ll have his contact information. So anyhow, Fred, you got hold of me and you told me this great, great story. And it starts with, really, it starts back in Buffalo, New York with the early guys or mafia members that came over from Sicily with John Curley, Montana.

[4:24]Who was a made member of the Buffalo family. So let’s, we’re going to get into that, uh, and then into his son who was in, in Cleveland and connected to the Cleveland outfit of the Cleveland family, and then into a big time crime where they kidnapped and murdered a businessman trying to get, I don’t know, as much as a $500,000 maybe from him, if I remember right. So John Curley, Montana comes to Buffalo from Sicily. And what do you remember about that’s the father that’s the father the man we’re going to be talking about tell us about him well he was born in sicily and came to the united states ultimately rose to the underboss of the buffalo crime family his son john became john curly montana moved to the cleveland area and became a made member of the of the cleveland la cosa nostra family. He was headed up by John Licavoli and actually had been reputed, alleged to have been a contract killer also with the Los Angeles mob.

[5:35]The informants had indicated that he had been out there as many as six times to commit hits on behalf of the Los Angeles mob. Fred, do you think that was because of, was that been because of his connection with Jimmy Fratianno, who was connected to both families, or did you know anything about that, how he, I think there was a, as I understood it, there was a pretty strong connection between the Los Angeles family and the Cleveland family. And that was linked strongly because of James Fratianno, Jimmy Fratianno, who had family in Cleveland. And he would repeat it. He would travel back and forth to visit family. And many times when he was there, he would visit with Licavoli, with the Cleveland crime family, and they’d talk things over. And so there, I think there was a connection there definitely with. Yeah. It’s always interesting how these guys are connected from city to city. And I know people here in Kansas city and they talk to me about their connection in another city, or they know somebody who has a connection in another city. Lots of times those relationships are created in penitentiaries. You’re in a cell with somebody or in a wing with somebody for a period of time from another family, a geographic area. And then you get out and you, you trust each other and you know each other. So it’s always fascinating to me how these guys know each other throughout the whole United States. So, you know, one last thing about Curly, Montana, your guys…

[7:03]Dad is is he was like in buffalo he he was like mr politician he was above the board businessman i think he had a lock on the taxi business in in buffalo until appalachian came out and and he got caught at the meeting and and he died out after that everybody knew he was exposed and before that they thought he was just you know mr businessman mr you know good john joe q john John Q. Citizen. So interesting thing about the Montana family. I’m sure he passed some of that along to his son as best he could. Anyhow, so let’s go back to Cleveland and his son, John Montana, and this case.

[7:46]

The Mafia’s Connection to Cleveland

[7:46]So let’s start. How’d you get into this, I guess? Go ahead.

[7:52]Leading up to this, you know, I’m a brand new agent. I get into Cleveland. I just happened to be there right at the start of some gang wars that of a gang war that was taking place between the Italian mob and the Irish mob at that point. And in 1970, I got there in December of 75. In early 1977, John Nardi, who was a defector from the Licavoli family, was blown up with a car bomb planted next to his car, 16 sticks of dynamite. And allegedly, Curley, Montana, put that bomb together. And that was used for that killing. About five months later, in October of 1977, Danny Green was similarly blown up. A Chevy Nova was pulled in next to his car when he was at a dental office or a dental appointment. And when he gets back out to his car, the bomb in that Chevy Nova was detonated. And allegedly, that bomb was put together by Curley. I don’t believe… The indications are that Curley actually detonated the bomb. The source information that came in was that he was an individual that had something to do with putting it together.

[9:10]After the Danny Green bombing, Curley Montana was interviewed by an agent on the Organized Crime Squad. And, of course, denied having any knowledge about the Danny Green bombing or anything like that. But offered to be available if the FBI had any other questions to feel free to give him a call and he’d be more than happy to talk to him. Well, the agent that talked to him then opened him up as a top echelon informant in the Cleveland informant files because he agreed to cooperate and make himself available. So in our records at the Cleveland office, Curley, Montana was was a, was listed as an informant. Then we get into the selling of the list. If you want me to swing into that. Yeah. Yeah. Let’s talk about that list. Yeah. Guys, you may or may not remember there was a famous situation that came up that Fratianno really brought Fratianno into the witness protection and becoming a cooperating witness. And that’s this list of top echelon informants from the Cleveland office that was sold and Fratianno freaked out. So tell us about that. Fred was right there on the seat, if you will, when this happened. Tell us about that and the people that were involved.

[10:26]Yeah. In February of 9th, the primary informant clerk, Geraldine Rabinowitz, and her husband, Raymond, were interested in getting a down payment for a home. Raymond worked at a Lincoln dealership on the east side of Cleveland. And coincidentally, the Chevy Nova that blew up next to Danny Green’s car came, came from the used car lot of that Lincoln, of that Lincoln dealership. What a coincidence. Oh yeah. What a, what a, what a coincidence. So the, her husband working at that unit was, was told that they’d buy individuals that they’d give them $16,000.

[11:06]If her, if his wife would bring them a list of all the informants for the Cleveland division. So she hand wrote all of the informants out on some paper and gets it out of the FBI office and they get the $16,000. On that list were four top echelon informants. And two of them were named informants and two of them were numbered informants. So the two named ones included another guy, not relevant to this story, and Curly, Montana. And then there were two additional numbered ones.

[11:42]And Rabinowitz informed the mob that she would try to do everything she can to find out who those numbered informants were. And so is back in town and he’s talking with Licavoli and Licavoli tells him, yeah, we got this broad in the FBI office that’s getting this information out of there. And she’s got a list of informants and includes these two named guys, including Curly Montana and two numbered guys. And she’s going to get us the identity of the two numbered guys.

[12:16]Well, Fratianno was concerned that he was one of those two numbered informants on that list.

[12:23]

The Infamous Informant List

[12:24]And that if Licavoli finds out, if she finds out and it is him, and Licavoli finds out, Licavoli might very well take care of Fratianno at that point. So Fratianno contacts retired FBI agent Larry Lawrence. I guess Larry must have been the agent that worked him for a while, and tells him that there’s a breach in the Cleveland office. And so Lawrence really just almost hangs up the phone and calls the Cleveland office and talks to the SAC and tells him, you’ve got a breach there. You’ve got the informant list has been compromised. And we eventually got the actual handwritten copy of the list back through a search warrant. But I can tell you all agents in the division had to personally contact every one of their informants that were on that list. And I had six that were on that list that I had to contact. And I can tell you I had six very unhappy informants with that process. But Geraldine Rabinowitz and her husband admitted what they had done. And I think by late March had pled guilty and both started serving time for that process.

[13:39]Wow. I tell you what, I would have hated to have done what you had to do and all the rest of you guys had to do. How embarrassing too. I mean, it’s just like, oh my God, it’s so embarrassing. Plus those top echelon informants. I know that the Bureau agents, even though the guy’s dead, if he’s never really been exposed in court, they refuse to acknowledge he was a top echelon informant. And I ran into that with a friend of mine here in Kansas city. And I know that guy was top echelon from something else. And I, I told Bill about it. He said, and he just looked at me like, what do you want from me? He was not, I know he knew it, but he was not going to ever confirm or deny. He was just, well, this, this is now because of the, the, the theft of the list. Yeah, I know. It’s just that became, became an issue on that. I think what guys don’t realize is the reputation of the bureau to keep those names quiet. Even after they’re dead, if they can, if you can’t do that, then other people will refuse or not will hesitate to come in because their family members are then subject to, you know, murder or at least being shunned by other family members because they all live in this little closed community anyhow. So it’s it’s huge. May monitor or maintaining the secrecy of these names. It’s just I can’t even maybe can’t even emphasize enough. And I doubt if you can’t either, Fred, how important it is to keep these names quiet.

[15:06]Anyhow, so. But that made Curly, Montana was a very important name for us in Cleveland. So that brings us into January of 1981, just a few years later, just a couple of years later after that, which is when the Henry Podborny matter came to light. I guess one question I would have here is then what happened with Montana after this list? I mean, Licavoli knew that he was on the list. Did he somehow convince them that he hadn’t really done anything or did other events conspire to keep him safe? Well, Fratianno supposedly had a conversation with Licavoli and convinced him that that list couldn’t be legitimate if it had Curly Montana. List because of all that, that he believed Curley would never front the family and he never did. But, but, but I think there was, there was some indication Licavoli was concerned that, that, that, uh, the FBI had set him up by giving that list and putting Curley Montana’s name on the list. Okay. Interesting. Interesting. Thank you for that. All right. Let’s move along to the Henry Podborny case. That was a fascinating case.

[16:23]

The Henry Podborny Case Begins

[16:24]Yep. So on January 30th of 1980, an informant contacts is being worked by the Organized Crime Squad.

[16:35]Informant contacts the agent that he’s working with and says, look, I just got approached by a guy by the name of Jim McLean. And McLean wanted, he gave me a check for $600 for cash that he wants, that’s drawn on the West Point Pallet Company in Berwyn, Illinois. And he wants me, the source, to find a friendly banker that’ll help him cash the check and help loot the company and take all the rest of the money out of the company. And McLean tells the source, you got to hurry because Podborny’s been iced and we got to get this done as quickly as possible. So Podborny owned this company, the pallet company. Right. It’s a company that he signs the checks and it’s the West Point Pallet Company. And McLean tells the source that this is Podborny’s company. Okay. McLean tells him, I’ve got the checkbook that’s got all the checks. And he says, and I’ve got his driver’s license and he’s, and he tells him I even look like, so I just need a friendly banker that’ll help me cash these checks. And we want to loot the company and get, get everything out of there. So the source immediately runs and contacts the organized crime agent that he’s working with. And that agent comes over to, I’m on the white collar squad, comes into the white collar supervisor’s office.

[18:04]And tells him the story. And then all of a sudden I get called into the supervisor’s office and I’m, I’m told that I’m going to be given this case.

[18:12]And so I’m sitting there. I literally, I have, I have a check in my hand. It’s a $600 check. The Bureau would never take a $600 check on, they never opened up a case on $600, but for the statement that Henry Podborny had been iced. So I get the case and I start working it. I have a partner by the name of Gary Hall, Excellent agent. And he was with me the whole way on this case. And so we started to get ready to get going. I contacted the Chicago office, which covers Berwyn, Illinois. And I had a friend of mine, Jack McCoy, went out literally in a quick undercover capacity going out to look for Henry Podborne at the West Point Pallet Company. Just said he was a friend of his and needed to talk to him. And the guy had one employee at the, at the, at the company and the employee said, well, you know, Henry left yesterday, which is January 29th. Supposedly he’s been separated from his wife, Dimple Pogborny of all names, but he’d been separated from Dimple and he was really distraught and Dimple contacted him and told him, come to Cleveland and I’ll reconcile the marriage. And so he immediately dropped everything, got a flight to Cleveland and left on the 29th. And the employee has not heard from Henry since that point.

[19:41]So now we have, at least at that point in time, we’ve confirmed that Henry Podborne, he has the company, he’s at least not accounted for at that point in time, and that he caught a flight the day before to get to Cleveland. We do some background on Jim McLean. McLean’s a, what we call an organized crime associate. He’s not a made member or whatever, but he’s occasionally used by their members to accomplish whatever they want to accomplish. and we start checking around. We check with some of the morgues and other hospitals to try and determine whether there’s somebody that supposedly fit Henry Podborny’s description had been turned in and nothing had shown up in that area. So we arranged to meet with the informant later that night and had him confirm with McLean on the phone that McLean still had the checkbook and they had the driver’s license and still wanted a friendly banker.

[20:40]We, on the other hand, at that point, had also contacted Society National Bank. I think it’s now Regions Bank, but back then it was Society National Bank. And we talked to the head of security and asked if we could meet with them, that we had a situation. And we wanted to bring in this Jim McLean guy and bring in the checkbook and the driver’s license of Henry Podborning. And that we wanted to catch him with that in the act because if something has happened to Henry Podborny, that would give us an extremely strong position with Jim McClain. And Society National Bank… Immediately agreed to work with us on this case. And they made available one of their branches on the west side of town.

[21:30]And we arranged to have the source tell McClain to be there at 5.15 the next day and that the banker would be waiting for him. In the meantime, at 5 o’clock, the bank dismissed all their employees. That was the closing time for the bank at that time. And we replaced all the employees with FBI agents, and I was going to be the friendly banker that McLean was going to meet with, or that we were hoping would meet with, and bring in the checkbook and the driver’s license. So we wait until 5.15 shows up, no McLean. 5.30, no McLean. 6 o’clock, no McLean. So we finally make the decision. We’ve got to go find McLean immediately and arrest him, hopefully getting the checkbook and the driver’s license. And then we can find out what happened to Jim McLean.

[22:25]And so we head out to Jim McLean’s house. It’s out in the country. He’s got a little bit of a driveway, but we’ve got some good trees and good coverage. So we were stationed at the home. It was pitch black when we got out there.

[22:40]We were pretty well concealed and we’re sitting there for a while and then eventually some headlights pull into the driveway and that was Jim McLean so at this point in time you know that.

[22:55]Henry Podborny is iced or on ice. You don’t really know if he’s dead or alive, but somehow he’s in, he’s in danger or he’s already dead. You don’t know. And McLean will know. And so you got to make a decision at this point in time. Do you carry on through and work McLean undercover a little bit, or you just go ahead and pop him and try to find out if maybe you can save Podborny. You don’t know, right? Is that what we’re at? Well, yeah, our decision to move was based on the premise that even though the indication was that he had been killed, there was some possibility that he might be being killed someplace. And we certainly didn’t feel that we had a lot of time to try to finesse that type of information out. So when McLean arrives home, we literally are right behind him. As he goes through the door, we’re right behind him, and we’re right there in the kitchen area, and he’s carrying a little satchel with him, and in that satchel turned up was the checkbook and the driver’s license. So now we have McLean with the driver’s license and the checkbook in his possession.

[24:14]Prior to all those events, we had gone to the United States Attorney’s Office and we had an assistant United States Attorney. We drew up an arrest warrant for McLean based on that fraudulent check that he had given the source earlier.

[24:31]So we were ready to go. We have, we have the arrest warrant. We get through there. We get, we get McLean in his house. He’s got the, the, the checkbook and the, and the driver’s license. I give McLean his rights and I tell him, I’m very concerned about what happened to Henry Podborny. And he looks at him and he said, so am I. I think they killed him. He said, I want to help. I want to cooperate, but I got to have, I got to have a lawyer before I say anything else. And, um, So we had to take him at that point. We called the prosecutor, and this was like at 10 o’clock or 10.30 at night.

[25:13]And we told, it was Nancy Schuster was the prosecutor. We told her, we got to get McLean in to see a judge first thing in the morning, and he’s got to have a public defender waiting there. And she said, no problem, we’ll be ready by 8 o’clock. So by eight o’clock the next morning, we picked him up out of the Cuyahoga County Jail, brought him back over to the federal courthouse. And there was a federal public defender waiting for him. And a judge was there for us to meet him in chambers and closed door session. And McLean pled guilty at that point in time to the check fraud and agreed to cooperate with us moving forward.

[25:55]Wow. That was fast. I mean, you guys were moving. That’s the faster I’ve ever seen the FBI move. Man, you guys, that’s like a tech unit local PD squad might work. I have never seen you guys work that fast. I got to tell you, we were really hustling. You were. So McLean’s agreement required him, obviously, to be honest with us, but also we only gave it to him because he assured us that he was not involved in the actual murder of, of Henry Podmorny. And so if, if, if that changed, then, then that agreement was going to be out the window, but we didn’t want to, we just didn’t want to pass off, give him a free pass for, for a murder situation. Yeah. He had to, he had to not have been involved in the murder.

[26:42]So we immediately start debriefing him and, and we probably spend about four or five hours going over the details, mentions that effectively Dimple and a daughter and son from a former marriage, both live in the Cleveland area, agreed that they should initially kidnap Henry Podborny and then cleat out his accounts. And that was later changed when the stepson, Gary Gabbard, who was a member of the Hell’s Angels motorcycle group and another Hells Angel by the name of Lee Juarez were present during the discussions. And they both said, look, dead men tell no tales. You know, we don’t need to kidnap him. We just need to get him, kill him and go clean out his accounts. And so that became the plan.

[27:36]The money that Henry Pogborny supposedly had was a result of a loan shark, not because of the West Point Pallet Company, but because he was allegedly engaged in a loan sharking operation with a U.S. Congressman in the Illinois area. And they had potentially millions out on the street, and they had a lot of money hidden in the house, money hidden in the warehouse, and money in safe deposit boxes in various banks.

[28:05]Dimple his estranged wife kept pressing him and pressing him for money and one of the reasons she left was because he wasn’t going to henry apparently wasn’t going to dip into the loan sharking money and so she just left and said i’m i’m done with you i’m through with you well they wanted to get their hands on that money and they knew that that money wasn’t going to be turned over in a divorce by any means nobody’s going to say well we have a loan sharking business, So here’s your half of the money. They needed Henry out of the way so that they could get in and search where they thought they had money available. And so that was the plan. Pod Borny flies into town.

[28:46]

The Plot Thickens

[28:47]And according to McLean, he was picked up at the airport by Robert O’Neill, who was a black male, just a thug in the Cleveland area, and taken back to O’Neill. O’Neill had a vacant bar that had gone out of business, but he still basically operated out of the bar. And he was taken back to O’Neill’s bar. And O’Neill and his sidekick, Lloyd Allen, were supposedly the ones present when Pod Borny was killed.

[29:20]But Pod Borny gets taken to the abandoned tavern. And O’Neill tells him that Dimple was inside the side door of the tavern just to go on in. And that’s what he did. And then nobody saw Henry Podwornie after that.

[29:36]McLean tells us that O’Neill brought out the checkbook and the driver’s license and gave it to her. And then they immediately drove and met with McLean, where McLean got the copy of the check. And that’s why he had the check and the checkbook the very same day.

[29:56]So that’s about the extent of what McLean told us. No mention of Curly, Montana at this time. Nothing like that came up. So this was absent Curly, certainly at that point in time. So our next step at that point is to get McLean to talk to Gale to find out what happened, actually happened to Henry Podmorny. And where is Henry Podmorny located? And so we’ve got several consensual recordings in which McLean is talking to Gale. Gale and Dimple and the brother Gary are now back in Berwyn. They left the day after Podborny showed up to get there to supposedly search and try and find the money that they thought was hidden back there. And in the first conversation that John McLean has with Lola Gale Toney, the daughter-in-law, Lola tells him that the money’s gone. We got here and the money is gone. It was supposedly buried under the floorboards in the attic, and those floorboards were torn up. There’s no money there. There’s no money in the safe, and they don’t know what happened. Lola makes an interesting statement, though, to McLean during this call. She says the letter showed up.

[31:23]And that’s all. And McLean just changed the topic, changed the subject at that point. And so later on, we asked McLean, what does she mean the letter showed up? And McLean just really passed it off as, I don’t know. I don’t know what she’s talking about. And then changed the subject back to trying to figure out where Henry Podborni was.

[31:44]So we try our our key now is is that she’s not revealing where henry is and and in in multiple attempts of talking to her she says that robert o’neill will not tell her what he did with him, and so now we’ve got we’re in a really tight spot at this point because if there is even the slightest chance that, that Henry’s alive. We’ve got to get her back from Cleveland or from Illinois. And, and we’ve got to find out where, where Henry is located. So we come up with a plan that McLean tells her if, if Podborny had an insurance policy, they can collect on that policy if his body’s found, but if they never find his body, he’s, they’re never going to, they’re going to, It’s going to be at least seven years or so before they can collect.

[32:34]

Lola’s Betrayal

[32:34]And so Lola says, well, let me check and find out. And we get a call back shortly, or McLean calls her back shortly later. And she goes, yeah, he did. He had a couple of policies. And so I’m going to catch a flight to Cleveland the next day, and we’re going to go to O’Neill and find out what he did with Henry.

[32:55]So the next day she flies in to Cleveland Hopkins airport and we’re sitting there, we’re surveilling. She literally brushes up against me. I’m on a phone outside the disembarkation area, but she literally walks right by me, goes out and she gets into a car with McLean. And the first thing they, they did was they pulled over and to a phone booth and she was, she was to call Robert O’Neill at that point. I remember there aren’t, there aren’t cell phones at that, at that point in time. So she had to go to a phone booth. She gets back in the car with, with McLean. And of course we’ve got the car fully wired and it’s transmitting everything that they’re talking about.

[33:40]And she says, Robert won’t tell me what, what happened with him. He doesn’t trust me. He wants to know why I’m asking, asking about Henry at this point. And I don’t know what’s going to happen. I don’t know where he is. So we make the point at that time that we’re going to affect an arrest on, on, on Lola. And we, we pose a, or we, we, we fake an arrest of McLean at the same time. So she doesn’t know that he’s, that he’s cooperating. And, and we take her back. We joined up with the Cleveland Homicide Unit at this time just because we knew we had a homicide on our hands. We also had other federal crimes too. So we take her back and we take her into the Homicide Unit. And Lola Galtoni absolutely flips over and cooperates immediately and identifies all aspects of the school. Hey, Fred, now remind us who Lola Gayle Tony is. What was her relationship? That’s the daughter-in-law. That’s the stepdaughter of Henry Podborny. Of Henry Podborny, okay.

[34:49]Yes. And she was the, uh, she’s the daughter of, of Dimple Podborny from a, from an earlier marriage. Okay. All right. All right. So go ahead. Yeah. So, yeah. So Lola admits the whole thing. She talks about her brother, Gary being there and the, and Lee Juarez, both Hell’s Angels being there when the, when the plan was, when it was discussed. And then it, it, it became apparent that they needed somebody to help them clean out the bank accounts. And since she had worked with Jim McLean in the past and knew that he was a con man and knew about banking. She gives him a call right away. And she says that in the planning aspect of it, they’ve got a problem with the house and the warehouse in Berwyn, Illinois, because Henry Podborny had Dobermans that he kept in those locations. And they were concerned about how to deal with the Dobermans. And so McLean, she says that McLean says, I’ll take care of that. I got somebody that knows how to do it. And he brings in another guy.

[35:50]And the guy says, listen, you’re going to do this. You need to have an alibi set up so that it looks like Henry’s still alive and he’s somewhere else in the country. So he says, get me a letter that Henry has sent to Dimple and make sure there’s no date on it. And I’ll see to it that it gets mailed from Buffalo, New York, and that’ll make it look like he misses Dimple, he’s looking for, and he wants to get back with the marriage. He also told them to take an advertisement out in the Chicago Tribune that says something like, Henry, all is forgiven, please come home. And that will make it look like Dimple was trying to make sure that he would come home. And so we got that, we found that advertisement and, and then Dimple, and then Lola tells us when she’s admitting to everything, she says, and the letter came from Buffalo that was, that was being sent by the guy. And I said, what guy are you talking about? And she says, it’s McLean’s friend, Curly Montana.

[37:01]Now that’s the first time we’d heard of Curly Montana with, with having anything to do with this case. And she gives us all this information. And so we decided at that point, since she’s now in custody, we’ve got to get these other guys in custody also for the same thing. So the Cleveland Homicide Unit got warrants for Robert O’Neill and Lloyd Allen for a kidnapping murder. Of course, we had the warrant for Lola. Dimple had admitted herself to a hospital in Berwyn, and so they got a warrant for her. And so she was arrested at the hospital, and guards were put on her room there. And of course, the brother, Gary Gabbard, was arrested and Lee Juarez was arrested. At this point in time, you still don’t have a body, though, or an actual witness who saw him murdered, correct? We don’t have, even Lola can’t say, I saw him killed. I saw him murdered. All she could say was that Robert said he killed him. Okay. And that he and Lloyd had done it. So now we have, at this point, we have six people in custody for kidnapping murder for an individual, and we have no body, we have no murder weapon, we have no witness that saw the murder, anything like this.

[38:27]And and lola was the only one that was what was the initially the only one cooperating until lee war as the the hell’s angel that wasn’t the family member lee war as says look if you guys will cut me a deal i’ll i’ll tell you what i know and so that the homicide unit got a deal cut with him right away and he says yep he said we were there we were with dimple we talked about the kidnapping.

[38:57]And, and of course he says, Gary’s Gabbard, the brother, the stepson is the one that said dead men tell no tales. So we’ve got to get that. We got to kill him instead of just, just kidnap him. And so with his, with his cooperation now, we thought, well, okay, we don’t have a body, but we’ve got, we got two people that were a part of the planning that to, to kidnap him and kill and kill him that are talking. We thought we were in pretty good, in pretty good shape until Lola says at the end of the day, after she’s cooperated and signed a statement, she says, you know, I decided I’m not going to cooperate. I’m just going to go to trial. You guys are going to have to take me to trial. That doesn’t mean we can’t use her information because she gave a voluntary

[39:45]

The Turning Point

[39:41]signed statement, but we’re going to have to take her to trial on the case. And the only cooperating witnesses at that point that knew anything about this where Jim McClain and Lee Warris.

[39:54]Well, we finally get a chance that after everything kind of calms down after all of these arrests, we’re now starting to put this case together to figure out how we’re going to go to trial without a body and murder weapon and such. But we finally get a chance to get McClain off to the side and tell him, tell us about Curly, Montana, McClain. And McLean says I didn’t tell you about him because I knew Curly Montana was not under arrest.

[40:28]And that if he knew I was snitching on him, he would kill me and my wife. And so that’s why I didn’t tell you anything about it. No, we had a real decision to make at that point. You know, what do you do with McLean at that point? He’s obviously held back critical information, but now he’s finally coming through with it. But only after we get Lola Gale, Tony tells us about Curly, Montana. him.

[40:55]So the decision is made is that he’s, he’s got to, he’s got to record a conversation with Curley and he’s got to, he’s got to try to do whatever he can to incriminate Curley on, on this case. And I got to tell you something, Jim McClain was, was, was very, very nervous with doing this because he feared Curley tremendously. But on April 6th, 1981, he has, has, he has the recording. we have a recorded conversation with Jim McClain and Curly Montana. And I’ve got a couple of excerpts here. If you don’t mind, I’ll just read them real quick as to what Curly says. They’re talking about the letter. McClain kept saying, I’m worried about that damn letter. And McClain says, they can’t prove we ever had the fucking letter. They got to prove it. We ain’t got to admit it. If we admit it, it’s possible, possible. They could indict us for the conspiracy, but you don’t admit it. It’s her word against ours. It’s her word against ours. And you say you didn’t have no letter. I’ll say we didn’t have nothing. I don’t know what you’re talking about. And they ain’t going to do nothing if we would both, but if we both admit it, possibly they would indict us on the conspiracy for shooting him. You understand?

[42:14]That’s the first time I heard that Henry Podborne has been shot. Yeah. Now that begs a question. That begs a question. What did McLean know? Right. So, and then he goes on and says, Jimmy, you go out there and say, you’re not involved in the disappearance. You’re not involved in the hit. You don’t know nothing. Neither do I. So fuck them. If you say we did the letter, well, we sent the letter. we could really become involved in the conspiracy part of killing him. And then the best line was right at the end of the conversation when Curley says, but you know, it’s only her word and ours. They can’t do a fucking thing about it. Remember that. And that was on the transcript. And that was one of the last things the jury heard before they went back to deliberate. Right. Now that letter, that letter was designed to make it look like he was still alive.

[43:12]And in a right. Because the general, the general information was, was, was Penry was going to be killed and the body was going to be disposed of and nobody was ever going to find that body. And so if they just have an alibi letter several weeks later, that makes it look like he’s alive in Buffalo. That’s going to be an alibi defense in this matter. Interesting so yeah so what do you guys do next you got them charged and then cleveland’s got some homicide charges on some of these guys right so how how does that going to work now i mean this you got two different jurisdictions you got the feds and the locals right which historically have maybe not worked so well together especially in cleveland so how do you go from here you got a lot of of tutorial decisions to make it seems to be like.

[44:04]We do. And coincidentally, you know, the two groups worked well together. And I got to tell you, you couldn’t have two more diverse groups than the White Collar Crime Squad and the Cleveland Bump. I know. I know. I’ve been there. These guys, I got to tell you, they’re great. They’re the consummate professionals in what they do. They deal with the scourge of the earth every day. And while they worked with the FBI before, I can tell you they never worked with the White Collar Crime Squad until this case came out. So we’re in a spot here now where we’re starting to corroborate everything that McLean has said, everything that Lola Galtoni has told us. And we’re starting to build a pretty solid case. And of course, there is no Henry Podborny that’s still out there walking around. So we put together a case that’s pretty decent.

[45:02]We’re all a little bit nervous that we’re going to trial without the body. But then on April 24th, I’m out driving in my bureau car. I get a radio message that I need to return to the office as quickly as possible. I do. And I walk in and they’ve got a phone set up with a recorder on it and everything’s all set. And I’m told that by the supervisor that an anonymous caller called in and wanted to talk to the case agent on the on the pod borning matter. and that he knows where the body is, but he’ll only talk to the case agent, which is me. So 20 minutes later, right on cue, the phone rings again, and it’s the anonymous caller.

[45:47]And he tells me on the phone, he says, man, he says, I know where that body is that you’re looking for, that Henry Podvorny, and I know it’s him. And I said, how do you know? And he goes, I’m just telling you, I know where the body is. And I want $10,000 to tell you where the body is. So now we have, I’m getting extorted for $10,000 to tell him, to be told where the body is on the case. So i eventually tell him look i can come i can come up with a hundred dollars and i promise you i’ll do everything i can to get the rest will you do will you work with that now and the guy goes sure meet me at and then he gives me the address where to meet him so we we all had we all rush out at that time i get to the it’s a filling station i i see him in his car he gets into my car and i said okay where do we go and he’s and he points right down a one of the road one of the main streets there on the east side of Cleveland. We go about half a mile and he says, stop. And we stop and there’s a big vacant lot and it’s in between two relatively six, seven story apartment buildings, really in dilapidated condition. But in the middle, in between the two was a vacant lot with a big pile of trash out in the middle of the lot.

[47:08]And the guy says he’s at the bottom of that bought that hill of trash out there in that lot. So while I stay in the car with him, the rest of the other agents and homicide people head out to the pile of trash. And then one of them comes running over and says, it’s Henry. Oh, man. So now all of a sudden it’s like, that’s pretty good. There you go. I said, well, how did you determine? And he had no ID on him, but on the inside pocket of his pants was a laundry mark that said H-Pod. So at that point in time, we were very confident we had Henry Podboarding. Now, the guy that points him out says, he points to one of the two apartment buildings. He says, the guy that works maintenance in that building told me that the body was out there. And his name is Wilbur Higgins. And he said, Wilbur told me that he was asked by Robert O’Neill to move that body and to get it moved. Otherwise, Robert O’Neill’s life was over with.

[48:19]And he was going to move the body that night. And so this guy got the idea, well, maybe I can make $10,000 by calling up the FBI. So anyway, we obviously we start the recovery of the body. The body is wrapped in a pool table cover. And we go over and we talk to Wilbur Higgins. But when we made the arrest of Robert O’Neill and Lloyd Allen, And we searched that dilapidated tavern that he had. And the one thing we all noticed was that there was a pool table there, but the cover had been ripped off of it. But nobody, I mean, that didn’t mean anything to us, other than the fact that it was cut out. But we found no evidence of Henry Podborny in that facility at that time.

[49:09]But now we have a body wrapped in a pool table cover. So now we take that pool table cover back to the tavern, and it’s the cover. So now we have a location connected with it. We interview Wilbur Higgins. Higgins tells us that he received a call from Robert O’Neill, that he was a friend of Robert O’Neill’s and Lloyd Allen, and that Robert O’Neill says, look, man, we dropped that body in that lot. And it was back on January 29th. and I need you to move that body. Man, my life’s on the line. If you don’t move it, something bad’s going to happen to me. Because this is now April 24th. That body was put out there on January 29th. So the temperature went from freezing to almost 60, 70 degrees, back again and then up again, and that body was starting to smell. And Robert O’Neill knew that somebody was going to find that body eventually.

[50:09]That’s why he asked, he called Wilbur Higgins and it told him to come down to the jail, which we confirmed from the visitation records that he comes down and he tells him, you got to move that body. And so that was the night he was going to move the body. We just happened to get the, get a guy that wanted to make 10,000 bucks to give us a call. But now we have the body. Yeah. So I guess my question, my question here is, first of all, did you pay him the $10,000? No. I guess I did. I did not. I did not. And yeah, there were some other situations where he agreed not to take any more. Okay. All right. Go ahead. Carry on. Yeah. So now the coroner got the name of Sam Gerber, a name that some people that are familiar with the series and the movie, The Fugitive, Sam Shepard’s murder case in Bay Village, Ohio. Um, Sam Gerber was the coroner on that particular case and had received some prominence in that thing. Well, Sam, Sam Gerber is still the coroner in Cuyahoga County at the time of this, this murder. The initial cause of death was pronounced as a blunt force trauma to the back of the head.

[51:27]And so that night, literally we got that ruling that night when we found the body. So we, at that point in time, we now had a cause of death and we have a location, which is the, the, the, uh, O’Neill’s bar. And we’re a lot farther way down the line until the next morning, Sam Gerber calls me up and says, Fred, you got to get down here right away. So I get down there and he says, hold out your hand. So I hold out my hand and he drops a 38 shell casing in my hand. He said, I just took that out of Podborny’s brain. He said, the cause of death has changed now to gunshot wound to the head. So now I said, well, you know, Dr. Gerber, I said, that’s the second time I heard that Henry Podborny had been shot. First time, obviously, was when Curly, Montana said. So now we have the cause of death now, the gunshot wound. But Gerber says, you got to go back to that tavern. And he said, you got to look up on the ceiling.

[52:32]Because most likely Todd Borny would have been down on the ground after they clubbed him and they shot him in the back of the head right where they had clubbed him. And that’s why it wasn’t noticeable initially. And he said, when that blood hit the back of the head, he said, that blood is going to splatter up on the ceiling and the upper wall. And nobody’s going to automatically see that, but they’re going to be tiny splotches of blood up there. So now we go back to the tavern again. This time we go with stepladders and we go in and we go up above right when you first walk in the side door. And we find 159 blood on the ceiling and the upper part of the wall.

[53:19]And, of course, it was Henry’s. And we literally took the ceiling down and the wall down. And during trial, we actually reconstructed that for the jury so that they could see exactly where the blood was. So now we had an exact location. We have the cause of death.

[53:38]

The Body is Discovered

[53:39]We have the body. And so we’re in infinitely better shape.

[53:43]All of the defense originally filed for a speedy trial act. I mean, they were, you know, there’s a, the state didn’t have a federal, but they, but they, they requested a speedy trial to set their, set their cases because at that time they knew we didn’t know, we didn’t have the body. And, and my guess is they’re thinking is let’s get this thing to trial with, and there won’t be a body. Well, all of a sudden now about a week and a half before the first trial, we have the body and they want to go, they want to delay. They want to delay their pieces on this thing. But the judge said, we’re going to trial. Your Honor, Your Honor, I need a continuance. I need a continuance, Your Honor. So interestingly enough, before we found the body, Dimple had two attorneys, one of them in Cleveland and one from Chicago. The Chicago attorney was a guy by the name of John Coghland, and the Cleveland attorney was Jerry Milano. Both expensive attorneys. So I’m wondering where she got the money to pay them. But at any rate, before we found the body, we were told by her defense attorneys that, hey, we have a defense. We have an alibi letter. And you guys, we got it all wrong. Henry Pyeborn, he’s still alive. And that’s their affirmative defense on this thing. Yeah. So now we know they have an alibi letter that’s not going to do them any good.

[55:09]So Nancy Schuster pulls what I would say is a genius move. We indict Curly Montana for mail fraud. Now that’s not, we know he’s going to get charged in the, in the kidnapping and the murder down the line, but let’s get our hands on that letter. We’ll indict him federally for mail fraud. And, and she gave me a subpoena to serve on the defense attorneys to turn over the letter that they’d said they had as an alibi letter, which they now, that’s now evidence in another case. and now it’s been subpoenaed and they have to turn it over. And the day after I served that subpoena on Jerry Milano, he walks up to me and throws the letter and it’s in a sandwich bag and says, there, Merry Christmas. And it turns out that’s the letter. It’s mailed from Buffalo, New York. And that was critical on the Curly, Montana case. Yeah, I can imagine.

[56:05]Made made every bit of that wire that consensual recordings you guys made made every bit of that like i mean it put him right in the middle of it just sucked it just nailed him right right in the whole thing was there any conjecture that he seemed to know that he’d been shot was there any conjecture that maybe he was a guy waiting inside the tavern that actually did the coup de grade was he there or was it just these hell’s angels guys we don’t know we don’t know the The evidence somewhat indicated that it was Robert O’Neill and Lloyd Allen who did it. But your point is very valid. We never found out who the shooter was. And that very, very simply could have been Curly, Montana. And I’ll tell you something that lends at least a little bit of credence to that. Is that when Lola Gayle Toney tells Jim McLean on the phone that the money’s gone, that the floorboards are up or torn up in the attic.

[57:02]Their first thought was that John Montana, Carly Montana, went up to home in Berlin knowing that the rest of the group back in Cleveland were occupied with getting rid of Henry. He may have beaten them up there to the ash, torn up floorboards, because he had been told where the money was hidden. And remember, he was going to take care of the dogs. He also offered to go up there and watch the house to see if it’s being surveilled by law enforcement, just in case somebody was looking for Henry Podborny. So he knew where the money was. It’s very likely that he got up there and got the money before everybody else did. Wow.

[57:48]That’s a hell of a case, man. That was one heck of a case, I got to tell you. And of course, it became… And once we found out that the Curly, Montana was involved in it, it’s like, you know, this is a real plus on this case. You know, we worked it obviously just as hard, but that was a nice finish for Curly, Montana. Yeah, you get a lot more help, a lot more prosecutorial resources, a lot more attention paid to it once you drop that mob guy’s name in there. There’s no doubt about it. So in the end now, who took convictions in state court for the actual murder? Did you have some convictions of actual murder? And then in federal court, what were your convictions? So explain to the guys kind of the difference in the two tracks and what happened there. Right. While they could have been charged with a kidnapping case, since they were charged in state court for kidnapping, I mean, there was no reason to, you know, they weren’t going to get a second charge on that one. But we did convict Curley, Montana, for mail fraud relating to that letter sent from Buffalo.

[58:59]And we convicted Jim McClain, pled guilty. And Lee Juarez eventually was convicted, I believe, federally on this, where he was an accessory in the planning stage. Lola Giltoni, convicted of a kidnapping murder. Dimple, kidnapping murder. Robert O’Neill, Lloyd Allen, both kidnapping murder. Gary Gabbard, kidnapping murder. And ultimately, the county, after I had left Cleveland, I left to go to Northwest Indiana. They indicted Curley and convicted him in state court. In state court, too. Wow.

[59:39]

Convictions and Legal Outcomes

[59:36]I guess most of the convictions ended up in state court, it sounds like. But you got the job done. That was a hell of a job, you guys. That was fine. I mean, we could have had two different settings. I think the state court was the far more appropriate venue for kidnapping murders. Yeah, yeah. The laws are much better for that state court.

[1:00:00]But all those times that Curley had allegedly been involved in hits and involved in other killings, they just couldn’t get anything on him for that one. But we just got lucky. And the white-collar squad and the organized crime squad worked very closely together in Cleveland. There was an organized crime unit of the U.S. Attorney’s Office there. And we worked. The white-collar statutes were used oftentimes to charge organized individuals. Yeah. So we had a very good working relationship. Yeah. Which is kind of interesting from a procedural standpoint. A lot of guys don’t know what white collar crime. You work with them. See, they want to take years to make a case and local homicide prosecutors. They want to do it now. They want to do it this month, this week and organized crime guys. They want to develop informants so they could get the bigger guy and the bigger guy and the bigger guy. So you have these three diverse units that have different kind of mandates, almost, if you will, different ways of working. And you all put it together. That’s amazing.

[1:01:07]Yeah, you’re absolutely right. And and that was, you know, initially we thought that that would that would create a real conflict on the thing. But I got to tell you, we worked we worked together closely. The county prosecutors, Carmen Marino and John Coghlan, not John Coghlan, I think it was his name in a second here, were, I mean, they were absolutely fantastic. And we were happy with the speed. Even when we didn’t have the body.

[1:01:32]You know, we felt we had such a strong team and the circumstantial evidence was really great. But, you know, without that body, you run the risk of having somebody. And in fact, the, the, the attorneys that represented Lola later told us that if we hadn’t found the body, they were just going to call one witness on their side and they were going to call Henry Podborning. And, and they, they knew that everybody would look at the back of the courtroom to see who comes in the door. And they were going to argue that that’s a reasonable doubt that she should have to. And it could work with a jury that could work. You can, you’re guaranteed almost a mistrial on a deal like that. You’re going to get at least one juror. Yeah, that’s exactly right. Interesting. Interesting. That’s another question I had, and all of a sudden I forgot what it was. Kind of a complicated case, but Fred, you really kind of distilled it down to the, and told it in such a way that, that we could follow along. And a lot of times these cases are complicated. And when you got organized crime and white collar crime and street criminals and, and all working together on something. And, you know, thank God they, they, they all started running their mouths and not wanting to do their own stuff. You know, this, if there’s a lesson to be learned is do everything yourself. No, not exactly.

[1:02:53]But, you know, a lot of a lot of violent organized crime acts or just straight straight murder acts, you know, there’s a there’s one of the underlying themes for a lot of that is, is that they’re after money or they’re after valuables of some sort. And that oftentimes follows the white collar statutes when it when it comes to, you know, fraud and stealing the money and that type of thing. So the two oftentimes do overlap.

[1:03:20]Yeah, really. You can also, I think oftentimes the organized crime prosecutor doing a RICO case will use some white collar crimes and what you guys have done to get one of the predicate acts that then say, oh, and this guy ordered it. So that’s, they always have to work hand in glove and you guys work well together. I’ll say that. Anything else you want to say about this case? It’s just been fascinating. You’ve got, you’re working on a screenplay, I know, and there’s not a book out there yet, guys, but he’s working on it. Yeah, I still got some pieces to put together, but, you know, there were a couple of real interesting points when we were looking for the body and thought we had located. Lee Juarez called us up a couple, oh, about a week or so after he was arrested and says, you know, I think if he’s being held someplace, we didn’t believe he was alive at that point by any means, but he said they may have put him in an abandoned hotel. Hotel, I believe it was Solon, Ohio. And he gave us the location of that. And that was one of these real little stripped down little hotels off the side of the road.

[1:04:28]And so we get this information late at night and myself and Gary Hall, agent that worked this with me, both decide, well, let’s go out and check this hotel out. Now there’s fresh snow on the ground at this point. And we get to the hotel and we pull into the parking lot and there’s obviously car tracks, you know, that have pulled into the parking lot. And there were a series of footprints, a trail of footprints going to unit number eight. In that hotel and back and forth, back and forth. And so Gary and I get out and, you know, we decide, Hey, we potentially have exigent circumstances or we need to, we need to find out what’s happening. Now I’d love to tell you that we just busted that door down, but it was actually a block. So we just opened it up. No drama.

[1:05:21]I’m not exactly sure that Gary and I combined could have broken that door. But anyway, the door was open. And there was nothing in there. But at midnight, we thought, well, you know, slight possibility this guy was part of the planning. He tells us he thinks that this might be a location. So that was one of the events when we’re trying to look up the body. Another location we looked at, we ended up bringing in a helicopter with the FLIR monitoring camera system. And they pointed out two locations on the property we were searching that were

[1:05:55]

Closing Thoughts and Reflections

[1:05:53]large enough to be a human body. Turned out they were deer uh that had been that had been buried there but so we had we were we were actively looking looking for the bottom for the body just without success until the very end yeah well yeah there’s there’s always those dead ends at any big investigation and you didn’t tell us all of them i know there’s always these different dead ends that you have to you go down but you’ve got to go down them and and they take a lot of time many times and but you gotta go down them because you just don’t know yep you sure do sure do all right red grassley it’s a it’s a great story i really appreciate you coming on and sharing this with the guys my guys that listen to the podcast and and i know they’re gonna they’re gonna be just like i was the whole time they’re gonna be engrossed in this one it’s a heck of a story.

[1:06:47]Well, I appreciate you giving me the opportunity to explain it in his podcast. All right, Fred, we’re going to have to have lunch again one of these days. It’s great to make your acquaintance right here in Kansas City. Guys, don’t forget, I like to ride motorcycles. Guys, don’t forget, I like to ride motorcycles. And if you are out there in your car, make sure you watch out for motorcycles. And if you have a problem with PTSD and you’ve been in the service, go to the VA website. And hand-in-hand with PTSD is the problem with drugs and alcohol. Well, you know, Anthony Ruggiano, a former Gambino, I guess he was a prospect, if you will, a proposed member. Witness Protection came back out. He’s now running a drug and alcohol center, or he’s a counselor down in Florida, and he has a hotline on his number. And, you know, I’ve got some books out there, and I’ve got my new book. You can see back over my shoulder, Windy City Mafia, that I did from some of the early interesting stories that I did in the podcast. I just went to several different episodes and created a written chapter, if you will. Each chapter is different. Got some Al Capone, got some Harry Aileman, got some Frank Calabrese Jr.

[1:07:59]

Got some, I don’t remember what else. Anyhow, just get that book. It’s on Amazon. And I’ve got that other book about the skimming from Las Vegas, leaving Vegas, how the FBI wiretaps in and mob domination of Las Vegas casinos. And I got my two documentary films, gangland wire and brothers against brothers, the Sabella Spiro war for just a dollar 99 rental. So thanks a lot guys. And, and thanks again, Fred, I really appreciate you coming on and telling us this story. Thanks. Take