This past summer marked a significant change for college athletes as the NCAA voted to allow them the opportunity to benefit from their name, image and likeness. While it’s certainly a significant change in the NCAA’s approach and rulemaking, what will it mean for most student athletes, especially those outside the big conferences and revenue-generating sports like football and basketball?

• Terry Mohajir – Vice President & Director of Athletics at UCF
  
• Brittney Anderson-Duzan – Associate AD for Compliance at UCF
  
• Scott Bukstein – Undergraduate Program Director & Associate Instructor of Sport Business Management at UCF
  

• 01:08 – What is NIL?
  
• 04:27 – What’s going on nationally?
  
• 06:26 – What’s the total value of the market?
  
• 09:08 – Is it going to impact recruiting?
  
• 14:54 – Are there guidelines for sports agents?
  
• 18:52 – Is NIL the endgame or are more changes coming?
  
• 27:05 – Dean Jarley’s final thoughts
  

Paul Jarley: This would not have happened a year ago.

Valerie Moses with Addition Financial (00:02): Good morning. It is so great to see you all here today. We are so proud of our partnership with Dillon Gabriel and with UCF Athletics and with the College of Business, we’re a proud partner. You can see us at the student gate at any football game, so please come visit us. We are incredibly honored to sponsor this morning’s event and to get to hear from Dillon and from [Steven 00:00:24] as well, all about the NIL partnerships. This is such a huge brand new front here, I would say, in the world of sports business and something that we all really need to be paying attention to. So it is very exciting to see these partnerships really come alive, and we are so grateful for our partnerships here today.

Paul Jarley (00:44): Will this newfound right to publicity change college athletics forever?

Paul Jarley (00:48): This year was all about separating hype from fundamental change. I’m Paul Jarley, Dean of the College of Business here at UCF. I’ve got lots of questions. To get answers, I’m talking to people with interesting insights into the future of business. Have you ever wondered, is this really a thing? On to our show.

Paul Jarley (01:08): Name, image and likeness is a legal concept that allows any person, including student athletes, the right to publicity, the ability to capitalize on anything that identifies them, including the ability to engage in third-party sponsorships and endorsements. Some people think this will change college athletics as we know it, others aren’t so sure. They think the marketplace will adjust, and that the benefits will accrue to a very few. To help sort through this, I’ve assembled three guests. Terry Mohajir is UCF’s athletic director, Brittney Duzan is the associate AD for compliance, and Scott Bukstein is an associate instructor in our DeVos Sports Business Management Program. Listen in.

Paul Jarley (01:51): As I understand NIL, this is being dealt with on a state-by-state basis. So what does Florida allow student athletes to do now that they couldn’t do before? Brittney, I’m going to throw that to you.

Brittney Anderson-Duzan (02:06): Sure. So, like most states, the state of Florida is one of the few that actually has a legislated piece for name, image and likeness. So essentially what they now have is the right to utilize their name, image and likeness for commercial purposes, so whether that be for money or not for money, that they weren’t allowed to do previously by NDA legislation. So basically, they have the right to publicity now.

Paul Jarley (02:32): They can print their faces on t-shirts. Can they get appearance fees? I’m trying to understand exactly what we’re-

Brittney Anderson-Duzan (02:39): Yeah. They can get appearance fees. It [inaudible 00:02:43] us now with what students on campus can do. So think outside of just those big endorsement deals, our student athletes can now do philanthropy work and actually use their platform as a student athlete for that.

Paul Jarley (02:53):For their own foundation, you mean.

Brittney Anderson-Duzan (02:55): Yep, they can create a foundation. Previously, they couldn’t go out on their own and utilize their name, image and likeness for a business. So if my student athletes want to go to the entrepreneurship office here on campus and want to start a business and use their name, Brittney Duzan’s makeup brand, they weren’t allowed to do that previously. They can do private lessons and actually use their name, image and likeness for that. Like you said, speaking engagements, autograph sessions, and then the stuff you’re seeing in the media, like these endorsement deals, and-

Paul Jarley (03:24): They could provide private lessons to like high school athletes.

Paul Jarley: Terry.

Terry Mohajir (03:28): The only thing that we can’t do is we can’t create the deal for them. So we cannot be involved in the deal, they have to create it themselves. People can ask us, “Hey, I want to talk to so-and-so.” We can put them in contact, but that’s it.

Paul Jarley (03:43): Okay. You can do that.

Brittney Anderson-Duzan (03:44):Yep.

Paul Jarley (03:44): Okay.

Brittney Anderson-Duzan (03:46): Yep. And what was odd was before, like with the private lessons, they’ve been allowed to do that forever with the NCAA, but the NCAA used to say, if I was the star tennis player, I couldn’t say me, Brittney Duzan, the number one for our tennis program, is giving private lessons. I would literally have to say, “Would you like to do lessons with me?” And couldn’t give my credentials because that would be using your name, image and likeness, which makes no sense because when you’re giving lessons, you’re going to want to give your credentials.

Terry Mohajir (04:11): You just couldn’t have a formal camp with your … you could [crosstalk 00:04:15] private. You couldn’t advertise it.

Paul Jarley (04:17): Okay. But now you could do a formal camp, Terry, is that true?

Terry Mohajir (04:19): Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Paul Jarley (04:20): You could, okay.

Terry Mohajir (04:21): You could have the Dillon Gabriel quarterback camp. In the past, he could do private lessons, but not-

Paul Jarley (04:27): Yeah, yeah. Hey Scott, are there any good sources of data on NIL activities at the national level? Do we know what they’re doing?

Scott Bukstein (04:34): The data within the space influencer is one of the primary NIL marketplaces. From July 1st through October 31st, the first four months in which NIL activities have been allowed, social media content has represented 59% of all transactions within the NIL space on that one platform. If we look at another primary marketplace, Paul, Opendorse, posting social digital content represents right around 28% of total NIL compensation on the Opendorse deals marketplace. So right now, social media where college athletes are essentially functioning as brand ambassadors, they’re making posts, endorsing a company, right now that’s the primary activity area and also the primary revenue area. Now there’s a bunch of other NIL activation and monetization areas. For example, some student athletes are making personal appearances at places like restaurants, car dealerships, community events. Some student athletes are signing autographs. This could be on physical, or now on digital, trading cards, digital collectibles, NFTs.

Scott Bukstein (05:41): Some college athletes, they’re playing video games with fans through platforms such as YOKE Gaming. Student athletes will get paid to spend 20 to 30 minutes playing in a specific video game with fans. College athletes can generate revenue by providing shout-outs to fans on platforms like Cameo, or they can engage in sending text messages to fans on platforms like Subtext. Some college athletes have been selling apparel, other branded items, through platforms like [inaudible 00:06:09] and The Players Trunk. So here’s a neat possibility that we’re seeing emerge for group licensing collaborations within the space with university athletic programs, so that college athletes, they’re able to sell merchandise and memorabilia that have trademark protective university athletics program logos and colors.

Paul Jarley (06:26): So Scott, do you have any sense of what the total value of this market is? Like, even for just the influencer stuff, do you have a number?

Scott Bukstein (06:33): It’s difficult to capture. The main reason is, and we’ve seen this within the past couple weeks, not all of these deals are being disclosed. It’s reporting that’s been made voluntarily by some athletic programs and then by these marketplaces. So for example, Opendorse, which is one of the primary marketplaces, for the first four months of [inaudible 00:06:53] activities from July through October, if we look at total compensation for division one, 82.9% of all NIL related compensation through the Opendorse deals marketplace involve college athletes on men’s college sports teams, and the average compensation per deal was $686.

Paul Jarley (07:15): Those numbers aren’t eye popping to me. Particularly on a per-athlete basis, right, I mean, they’re pretty small potatoes.

Scott Bukstein (07:22): Yes.

Paul Jarley (07:23): I would assume that the best opportunities here are probably for superstars in either football or basketball in the revenue sports. Fair enough?

Scott Bukstein (07:34): Okay. For sure.

Paul Jarley (07:36): All right. So you went to kind of what’s my next question, I assume the star quarterback is in a pretty good position to maybe take advantage of this, but do you have any sense what percentage of your student athletes are probably involved in something related to this? I mean, are you even allowed to know?

Terry Mohajir (07:51): Well, yeah, she knows.

Brittney Anderson-Duzan (07:53): Yeah. I was going to let Terry take it because he does have a good grasp on it, but yes. So the state law does require student athletes to disclose their NIL activities. They don’t give a timeline for disclosure, but our student athletes do a pretty good job about disclosing what they’re doing. You’d be surprised, it’s a wide breadth of student athletes from the starting quarterback to bench warmers. We have some students who have a really big following on like TikTok, or really good on Instagram, and that’s where you’re seeing a lot of things happening right now. So I wouldn’t say it’s a huge percentage of our student athletes that are utilizing it, but it’s not just the star quarterback.

Terry Mohajir (08:31): Yeah, I would tell you Paul, that our female athletes probably have the most upside, especially the ones that have a very robust social media following. And they play better, I think, as far as for advertisers. And so I think if you start looking around the country, you might see bigger numbers with maybe a star quarterback, or a star basketball player, but you’ll probably see more of your student athletes that are females.

Paul Jarley (09:08): Terry, do you think this is going to impact recruiting at all and how colleges recruit?

Terry Mohajir (09:13): Absolutely.

Paul Jarley (09:15): Give me a sense of what you think’s going to happen there. I mean, we’ve talked before, right? Yeah. I thought you’d be going out and hiring social media experts and some brand experts to help the students develop this, and quite frankly, what you don’t want is UCF’s student athlete filling the blank on the headline for something that happened NIL-related that you had no control over. I mean, that’s what would freak me out.

Terry Mohajir (09:44): Yeah. I think the biggest concern I have is predatorial people that are promising the world and the sky, and they’re not able to deliver. The other thing is, what I’m finding out is you have people that want to help and want to use certain student athletes’ name, image and likeness, and then they have handlers that get involved that try to get way over market price. That’s a little bit of a challenge too. So I think this is going to correct itself eventually. From my understanding, going back to your question about recruiting, I think it’s really a strong recruiting tool as far as when someone says, “Hey, I’m going to go to this school because there’s a lot more NIL opportunities.” I think when you are in a metropolitan area, like we are in a top 20 DMA, as opposed to a traditional college town, that maybe the only thing in that college town is the school that doesn’t have a lot of industry, it’s a little bit more challenging.

Terry Mohajir (10:50): And I also think, just to be very candid, which I’m a very candid person, is there’s also a lot more opportunities to not use the rule why it’s intended for. It’s more to pay players.

Paul Jarley (11:05): Right, right. So boosters are going to oversell…

Terry Mohajir (11:09): [crosstalk 00:11:09] … there’s really no market value. If you are in a small SEC town and I’m using that, she loves that when I use … and your-

Paul Jarley (11:18): Let’s pick on Tuscaloosa, can we do that?

Terry Mohajir (11:22): Let’s call it Rich Point State, whatever, Rich Point State. And you’re a small little town, and you have boosters that are paying for name, image and likeness that live in two states over.

Paul Jarley (11:37): Yeah.

Terry Mohajir (11:38): You know that they’re industries in two states over. And also can work against you. If you have a star quarterback, well, I’ll just use an example, star quarterback at, if you have a [inaudible 00:11:50] company that spends money on name, image and likeness, and you pay a star quarterback at one school, and you’re not doing another school, it may hurt you on your advertising. So I use the car dealers, if you are promoting a quarterback at one school and you have a very competitive collegiate region, and you say, “Look, he’s sponsoring that quarterback,” why would I buy from him? That’s not my school. So I think you have to be very careful from an advertiser as well, because people are generally very parochial in how they spend their money, and they want to support people that they support their interest, if that makes sense.

Brittney Anderson-Duzan (12:30): And I feel like with recruiting too, just being part of the recruiting process sometimes-

Paul Jarley (12:35): Yeah, Brittney.

Brittney Anderson-Duzan (12:35): … is, you’re seeing a shift of the questions they’re asking or like, how are you going to market me as a school? So you’re looking at the school’s marketability, you’re looking at the town’s marketability. And then it’s also, I think, going to tie a little bit into, all right, well, we already have these student athletes or these kids that want to play their freshman year. I think they’re going to say, well, it’s going to be a more candid conversation because the starters are the ones potentially getting better deals. So you’re kind of seeing those conversations start in some of these sports with, all right, well how are you going to market me, which that conversation wasn’t happening a year ago.

Terry Mohajir (13:10):[crosstalk 00:13:10] … you could also see some of the student athletes that might have more of a realistic chance to play at the next level that really don’t want to mess with it either.

Brittney Anderson-Duzan (13:21): Yep.

Terry Mohajir (13:21): They just say, “I don’t want to mess with, I want to focus on my trade. I want to play in NFL, NBA, whatever it is, and I don’t really need any distractions.” And you can also see certain student athletes being distracted from it as well. So I think it’ll correct itself, just like all the stuff, and I really love the rule. Having been a former student athlete coach, I love the rule, the opportunity, because it’s intended to help the women’s soccer player write a children’s book, or help a young man have a passing camp or a shooting camp or something like that, and just like regular students. But it’s not intended for college X to get booster Y to pay a player $50,000 for no market value. And I hope this is being recorded because you can take that to the bank.

Paul Jarley (14:10): Yeah, no-

Terry Mohajir (14:11): [crosstalk] … because that’s not the intention of why we are doing this.

Paul Jarley (14:15): Sure, of course, Terry.

Terry Mohajir (14:16): [crosstalk 00:14:16] … people out.

Paul Jarley (14:18): So what flashed through my mind, I have to admit, when Brittney was talking, is the frightening scenario of NIL being available when Johnny Manziel was playing at Texas A&M, but we won’t actually put that in the podcast.

Terry Mohajir (14:31): No, that’s okay. That comes up often.

Paul Jarley (14:35): I mean, he’s sort of the poster child, right, in a way.

Terry Mohajir (14:37): No, because he was signing autographs for money, which actually, I don’t have a problem with that. If someone wants to pay him money for that, that’s fine. Now-

Paul Jarley (14:46): Remember Terry, A&M had it on their website.

Terry Mohajir (14:49): I know.

Paul Jarley (14:50): … and they’re selling it on their own website, but I’m also worried about agents here.

Terry Mohajir (14:54): Yeah.

Paul Jarley (14:54): I’m worried about agents approaching student athletes and saying, “Well, we’ll handle this, your image and likeness stuff for you now,” and this is a way for them to get in the back door. So are there guardrails on that?

Terry Mohajir (15:08): Well, that’s what my concern is. I was talking about the handlers.

Paul Jarley (15:11): Yeah.

Terry Mohajir (15:11): … and now there’s legit agents that have some legitimate opportunities to help a young person get to the next level in their professional sport. But then you have handlers that may not have the experience. You have uncles, aunts, cousins, brothers, that want to get involved that really don’t have the expertise. So we do have a couple forums that allows them to go on and get the professional help that they need. There’s a couple companies out there. One that actually was started by UCF grads is one company is called Icon Source. And it’s basically, after you register through the compliance portal, you can go on there and they can negotiate all your contracts, they handle all your name, image, likeness. It’s a resting place for your name, image and likeness that advertisers can go on there, it’s very clean. We also have services on campus that our student athletes can take advantage of, the legal services on campus that they can use, and I think they have. Brittney, I think you’ve …

Brittney Anderson-Duzan (16:24): Yeah, we funnel a lot of student athletes over, which has been helpful, because we can’t help them obviously work through contracts, but to Terry’s point, the most we can do right now is educate them on what to use and what to do. Because you are seeing some shifts where you’ve got agents who’ve worked in that professional realm who are saying, “Well, we’ll come do NIL with you,” and so just educating them on, well that’s not what their normal course of dealings is. They’re not used to dealing with those kind of contracts, so are you sure you want to work with that agent? So making sure before they sign anything that they’re going over to legal services and doing that. And what Terry’s talking about is third-party market places …

Paul Jarley (16:59): Yeah.

Brittney Anderson-Duzan (17:00): … and there’s a ton out there, and Terry did a great job of vetting some of them. But giving our student athletes the opportunity to say, look, you don’t need an agent to go out and find deals. Here’s a platform you can go on, where you can meet people that want you to do an endorsement deal with them, or want you to do a social media post with them, and you can work with them and the contract’s done there and vetted, instead of you going out and hiring someone that you don’t know. And then all agents have to register through our office, so they have to be licensed with the state of Florida. If they’re a professional, if they work with like the NFL, they have to be NFLPA certified. If they are an attorney, they actually have to be in good standing with the bar. So we do that kind of vetting and give our student athletes a bit of information before they go out and do things, just to kind of help as much as we can.

Paul Jarley (17:47): Scott has a bit of a different take on NIL and agents.

Scott Bukstein (17:52): From an agent perspective, I actually think that name, image, likeness is going to be helpful for student athletes. Currently, we have an amalgamation of state laws that have been completely ineffective at regulating agents, the NCAA has tried to regulate agents. So now from a student athlete perspective, you have some time to learn more about various agencies instead of picking the agency that agrees to charge the lowest percentage for commission on your rookie deal, instead of picking the agency that your basketball or your softball coach recommends. And all of a sudden NIL provides college athletes with an opportunity to learn more about these agencies, be more informed. But, most certainly, you’re going to have situations where an agent might offer to represent a college athlete for NIL marketing purposes. That agent would advance a large sum of money against which the player’s future marketing earnings would be credited, because historically, and this is unfortunate, but in reality, some agents have provided marketing guarantees as part of a broader effort to sign players for contract negotiation purposes.

Paul Jarley (18:52): So is NIL going to be the end of this, or do you think more legislation is coming to allow more kinds of activities? Look into your crystal ball. What do you think?

Terry Mohajir (19:04): Go ahead Brittney, I’ll give you my honest opinion.

Brittney Anderson-Duzan (19:09): I mean, honestly, I think any opinion I’d give right now would be stupid because 10 years ago I would never have said that name, image and likeness would be-

Paul Jarley (19:17): I mean, that’s fair. Yeah.

Brittney Anderson-Duzan (19:19): So, do I think things will change? Yes, I think it’ll just continue to evolve as we move along, but I’m going to hold what I think’s going to happen. I’ll let Terry answer.

Terry Mohajir (19:32): So here’s my thought, and I’ve been doing this for long time now, been in AD for almost a decade, and I’ve seen it evolve and everybody was freaked out when we went to cost of attendance, we were allowed to pay up to the cost of attendance. I was very much in favor of it and it didn’t change the world all that much. It’s just became a budget issue for schools that wanted to pay it. However, in this day and age, what we have allowed to happen as a practitioner and people in my industry, we have allowed the media to hijack the narrative of who our student athletes are. I’m very passionate about. We tend to let people think that they’re employees, and so that’s the big topic right now on Capitol Hill, is that our student athletes employees, they’re not employees.

Terry Mohajir (20:30): When you talk to our student athletes today and ask them if they want to be employees, they do not want to be employees. They do not want to pay taxes. They do not want to be fired. They don’t want all kinds of stuff. They don’t want to have to get workman’s comp. They don’t want to have to get taxed on their housing, their apparel, and all that stuff. So now if they become employees, they get taxed on all that, their food, their shoes that we give them, the medical care, the pharmacy opportunities they have.

Terry Mohajir (20:56):

So that’s the biggest challenge. We are in a kind of a crossroads right now. I think the NCAA needs to talk to more practitioners about changing the narrative. And I’m very concerned that we have not done enough to really speak to the fact that it’s about education and a degree and career services, period. That’s what it is. Sport, intercollegiate athletics is a conduit to an education and a degree in a career, period. If you happen to play in the 1% that happens to play professional sports, wonderful. The 1%. But we think there’s a lot of value. There’s not a lot of value in some of our sports. There’s more cost, so they don’t make money. They don’t generate revenue. Right now, the only sport that pays the bills on this campus is football.

Paul Jarley (21:54): Yeah. That’s true on most campuses, Terry, right?

Terry Mohajir (21:57): Most campuses, I’ve worked at a school where basketball paid a lot of bills, universities. And so it was an elite basketball program. But I think that’s the key, I am concerned of this talk about employees versus non-employees, because when you get Capitol Hill involved and you get people that are trying to have political favor because they think it’s a very trendy thing to do, they’re not talking to the practitioners, including the students.

Paul Jarley (22:33): So it’s 10 years from now, will NIL have changed college sports in a fundamental way, or is it just going to be a benefit for a few star athletes? Scott, what’s your take?

Scott Bukstein (22:44): A pure financial perspective, I do think in our rights, they’re going to continue to assist many college athletes with professional career prospects and for sports such as football and basketball. In the long run, I think college athletes that benefit might end up being the ones who need the money the least. So what do I think we’re going to see within NIL? So we have this 10 year big picture vision. Within the next year to two, we’re definitely going to see more structure. I think we’ll see more formal classes within colleges of business, similar to a new credit hour, I think it’s a two credit hour class at BYU that is a Shark Tank-type component. We’ll see more workshops led by compliance staff. I also think we’ll see more strategy. So it’s just like esports and sports betting, where companies at first just rush into this space, I think companies now they’re just jumping into the NIL space without any [inaudible 00:23:32] strategy, or end goals, defined objectives. I also think we’ll see some type of consolidation within this space and emergence of several key leaders.

Paul Jarley (23:42): Terry, what do you think?

Terry Mohajir (23:44): I think it’ll be a benefit for a lot of athletes, because it gives athletes an opportunity to really do what it’s intended. You’re going to hear horror stories. We’re already starting to hear about the starting quarterback at these elite programs that came in as starters, now they’re not starting, so they’re getting their advertising dollars taken away from.

Terry Mohajir (24:09): … because they’re not playing anymore. So I think you’re going to start seeing advertisers be a little more cautious about putting their investments into 18-year-old.

Paul Jarley (24:17): That’s interesting.

Terry Mohajir (24:18): So I think that’s going to be happen, but I do think it’s what it’s intended to be. I talked to Chip LaMarca, he’s the one that sponsored the bill in the state, and I had a really good candid conversation with him. It is intended, for young people, to generate some extra money, to start a clothing company like Dillon Gabriel did, to write a children’s book, to be an equity actor. Our student athletes are in great shape to go be actors, or be able to take photos for advertising, like for a fitness magazine, or all that kind of, I think that’s going to be what’s going to evolve, and I think that’s great. I think it’s fantastic to-

Paul Jarley (24:59): What do you think Brittney?

Brittney Anderson-Duzan (25:01): I agree completely. I think the media is focusing on the recruiting aspect and the big stars and these giant deals, but the things that they’re not focusing on, which I think we’ll start to, are, I have some student athletes that I’m not going to out right now because they’re going to have things coming out, but they’re doing philanthropy work and are doing these things that, two and three years ago they could do to an extent, but now they can have total ownership of it. And they’re going to be able to take that, they’re not going to be going to the NFL or the Major Leagues. And they’re going to be able to show that on their resume when they go apply for a job.

Brittney Anderson-Duzan (25:34): This is something that I did while I was in college, and I think that’s going to continue. I think it’s going to grow, because the more that we get into NIL, and the more we understand where our student athletes land, because we have no data to look at, right? Like I don’t know how many student athletes want to start their own clothing company, how many student athletes want to be a social media influencer. So I think the next few years, as you see us kind of to get some historical data, we can start helping our student athletes, and I just think you’re going to see those areas grow as much as you’re going to see the endorsement side grow.

Paul Jarley (26:01): Well, and I mean, athletes are in a unique situation here to use their likenesses, but let’s not forget, I have a lot of students on campus in the College of Business who start foundations and businesses while they’re in college, and frankly we encourage that as much as possible, right? So I think [crosstalk 00:26:23] … it’s easy to forget they’re student athletes, right?

Terry Mohajir (26:26): Yeah. And I’ve always hesitated. I say student athletes, but I’m very cautious about saying student athletes. I just say our students most time. The population that Brittney and I serve, they’re students, they happen to be very talented in one area. They just are. I mean, I’m recruiting students, not to be athletes, I’m recruiting to your college. And other colleges. That’s what we do, we’re recruiting them to other colleges so they can get an education and degree and get a career, period. That’s it. We have lost our way in that narrative, we have lost our way as practitioners.

Paul Jarley (27:05): It’s my podcast, so I get to go last. A lot of my students want to be social media celebrities and to monetize their brand in some way. It’s incredibly hard to do. Sports give student athletes a little bit of a leg-up in trying to establish celebrity status, but it’s still really hard. Being a good student athlete doesn’t guarantee that people are going to find you interesting and worthy of their attention off the field. NIL is in its infancy. New things always draw attention, but the early return suggest it’s not going to be a big moneymaker for many student athletes. As this becomes more apparent, NIL’s ability to fundamentally change the college athletics landscape will fade. That said, there are some potential risks for students, athletes or not, in marketing their name, image and likeness. The potential for shenanigans by agents is especially troubling. And a course on this, offered by our marketing department, could be, well, a very good thing.

Paul Jarley (28:12): So what’s your take? Check us out online and share your thoughts at business.ucf.edu/podcast. You can also find extended interviews with our guests and notes from the show.

Paul Jarley (28:24): Special thanks to my new producer, Lesley Crews, and the whole team at the Office of Outreach & Engagement here at the UCF College of Business, and thank you for listening. Until next time, charge on.

Listen to all episodes of “Is This Really a Thing?” at business.ucf.edu/podcast.