Episode 258-How to Protect Your House of Worship Also Available OnSearchable Podcast Transcript Gun Lawyer — Episode 258 Transcript

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

Supreme Court case, Wolford vs. Lopez, sensitive places, New Jersey law, carry permit, church security, stun gun, pepper spray, gun violence, anthropomorphic traits, Second Amendment, gun rights, gun laws, gun storage, GOFOU.

SPEAKERS

Teddy Nappen, Evan Nappen, Speaker 2

Evan Nappen 00:15 I’m Evan Nappen.

Teddy Nappen 00:17 And I’m Teddy Nappen.

Evan Nappen 00:19
And welcome to Gun Lawyer. So, I received a letter that I want to talk about that has an important issue in these times. But before I even get to that, I just want to make an announcement. The Supreme Court of the United States just accepted a gun case. So, this is very exciting because we’re now going to get another Supreme Court decision. This case is the Wolford versus Lopez (U.S. Supreme Court Docket No. 24-1046) out of Hawaii, which will most likely impact New Jersey as well. (https://www.scotusblog.com/cases/case-files/wolford-v-lopez/) Because the key issue here is “sensitive places”, specifically, Hawaii’s sensitive place law that requires express permission from a property owner to carry a handgun on private property that is open to the public.

Evan Nappen 01:15
Now, New Jersey has that same type of sensitive place. However, in New Jersey, we won on that one in the court challenge so far in which the requirement that originally stated you had to have permission before you went on any private property, whether open to the public or not. New Jersey split it and said, no, if it’s open to the public, you don’t need that prior permission or a sign hanging on the building that says, we love guns or, you know, come on in. But in Hawaii, the court upheld actually needing permission from a property owner for property that is open to the public. So, for example, in Hawaii, if you have a carry license, you can’t walk into a 7-11 with your gun unless you have expressed permission to go on that private property that’s open to the public. In New Jersey, that is not the case. In New Jersey, you can go into 7-11, but you can’t go into private property that is not open to the public. So, if you’re going to visit your friend, well, your friend better give you permission before you carry your gun there.
Page – 1 – of 8
Evan Nappen 02:33
But what makes this exciting is that the Court, hopefully, in addressing this issue will give us a framework to evaluate other sensitive places, and it may very well have the impact of annihilating most, if not all, of New Jersey’s sensitive places, at least with a test to test their constitutionality. And by the way, the Hawaii challenge is broad and also in their sensitive places, banned guns on beaches, parks, and restaurants that serve alcohol, just like New Jersey has. So, we’ll see how far the Supreme Court goes in its analysis and if it sets up a framework for challenging sensitive place laws that we’re currently in the fight with the State of New Jersey. You know, our great state Association, the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol clubs, has the ongoing federal litigation challenging New Jersey’s Carry Killer bill, and this should be of great benefit in our fight for Second Amendment rights. Now.

Teddy Nappen 03:46
Out of curiosity, if for the sake of argument, Saint Justice Thomas is listening to Gun Lawyer, what would be the best frame?

Evan Nappen 03:58
Well, that is a very difficult question as to how they will structure the test. Now, one thing that would be just awesome is, but I don’t think it would fly necessarily, is they just say, hey, these are the only sensitive places that are sensitive places, and make it crystal clear that none of the others count. But I don’t think they’re going to do that. They’re probably going to try to structure some type of test and that’s something that we’re going to have to wait and see. I can’t even put forward a test at this time that would cut the bill, but that’s why the Supreme Court Justices get the big bucks. And let’s hope they put a test out there that is makes it pretty narrow as to where our rights get restricted. So, we’ll see how that works.

Evan Nappen 04:52
But in a similar vein, we have a letter here, and this letter is from Chuck. And what Chuck says is, is it legal to carry and use a stun gun or pepper ball dispensing air gun? I have a concealed carry (permit) but am considering other options. We are in the process of a Church security assessment, and I was thinking this and pepper spray would be a good option, less expensive, requiring less training and risk, if used in a less than appropriate manner. As a note, I enjoy your podcast weekly, and I’m a U.S. Law Shield member. Thank you and Peace. Okay, Chuck, thanks. So, as far as the stun gun and/or pepper ball deal, we’re still stuck under the current case law that makes it a problem to preemptively arm yourself for self-defense outside the home with a stun gun or pepper ball type device. You can possess them, and you can have them in your home, but not outside your home. And here we’re talking about in a Church. So, unfortunately, until we get it acknowledged officially in a case, I can’t advise just carrying those around. You have a problem under N.J.S. 2C:39-6, and it is subsection d. specifically, regarding preemptively arming oneself for self-defense outside the home. So, beware of that. Now on pepper spray, you would be allowed to carry three quarters of an ounce or less, which is a rather small container. That is the only pepper spray that’s exempted.

Evan Nappen 06:45
But if you’re going to talk about church security, and we want to talk about lethal security, can you carry your handgun at your house of worship, whether it’s a church, a synagogue, mosque, whatever? Can
Page – 2 – of 8
you do that? And the answer is yes. Houses of worship are not a sensitive place under New Jersey’s Carry Killer law. So, you are allowed to, at least you’re not prohibited from having your legal carry gun that you have a permit for at house of worship. If you participate in that house of worship’s security, that’s up to you, but you would be allowed to carry your gun. However, the danger, or the trap you have to watch out for is, since many houses of worship also happen to have schools – Sunday school, Saturday school, whatever the school is, where it’s part of that facility, then that section that is the school takes on the “sensitive place” designation of a prohibited sensitive place for a school. So, if there’s a separate part of the building or a separate room where the school is, but in the general congregation area, that’s not a school ground, you can carry there. But you can’t go into the school part.

Evan Nappen 08:17
So, if the security team wants to be able to lawfully carry in the part of the house of worship that is a school, then we have to overcome two prohibitions. One is New Jersey’s sensitive place prohibition, but the other is a law that is under N.J.S. 2C:39-5.e.. This also can set a trap for the unsuspecting just basically dealing with any school property. So, New Jersey sensitive place says you can’t have it. You can’t carry have your gun into a school. However, if you pull into a parking lot of a sensitive place, New Jersey says, oh, well, you can unload it, lock it, unloaded in a box in your car, and you’re okay if you do that. However, that would satisfy, even though that would satisfy the “sensitive place” prohibition at a school, it does not satisfy the second and other prohibition, which is found under 2C:39-5.e. And what that says is, any person who knowingly has in his possession any firearm in or upon any part of the buildings or grounds of any school, college, university or other educational institution, without the written authorization of the governing officer of the institution, is guilty of a crime. So, if you park on the grounds of the school, even to pick up your child or to go into the school and you use the exemption found under “sensitive places”, it will not cover you for the other school property prohibition. So, be wary. It is a trap. It can be a big GOFU.

Evan Nappen 10:32
But let’s say you’re in the Church and you want to have your security team be able to go into the school. Well, there is a way to work around that. So, as you can see, as we just read, if there’s permission, written authorization of the governing officer of the institution, then you would overcome the 39-5.e. prohibition. However, how do you overcome the sensitive place prohibition? Because now we’re talking not just being in the parking lot, but we’re talking about actually being in the school itself, within the house of worship. Well, for that, we go to the sensitive place law, which you’ll find under N.J.S. 2C:58-4.6 and go there to subsection e. And what it says is, nothing in this act shall be construed to prohibit the holder of a valid and lawfully issued permit, in other words, a carry permit, who is lawfully authorized to provide security at a place enumerated in those sensitive places from carrying a firearm, whether openly or concealed, provided that the authorization is set forth in writing, and only to the extent permitted by the entity responsible for security at the place in question.

Evan Nappen 12:03
So, if you get written authorization covering you for the first prohibition that we talked with and then if you get that written authorization that can cover you here, there’s one added thing you have to do. You have to be able to be lawfully authorized to provide security. So, who’s lawfully authorized to provide
Page – 3 – of 8
security in New Jersey? Those that have a SORA (Security Officer Registration Act) card. (https://nj.gov/njsp/private-detective/sora-help.shtml) If you’re on the church or synagogue or mosque House of Worship security team and you want to fully have the exemptions apply to you, you’re going to need to have SORA card and your carry permit. You can then be exempted with the written authorization, as we’ve discussed, and it will give you the ability to have the full access to those grounds without being in violation of either school or other sensitive place prohibitions. So, thanks for a great question, Chuck.

Evan Nappen 13:15
I also have a letter here, and this is from Jay. Jay says, I listen to your blogs regularly. I want to really thank you for the service you provided guarding our constitutional rights. I had two questions, but he actually has three questions. So, I don’t know, but we’ll do all three. Number One – are cross shoulder straps allowed as a holster for concealed carry in New Jersey? So, I’m assuming what you mean by cross shoulder straps, meaning a shoulder holster. You know, the rig that you carry essentially under your arm, and it has the straps that you put both your arms through. Some are made even just for a one arm through where you have it. And the answer to that would be yes, as long as the holster itself stays concealed and qualifies as a holster that covers the trigger and the body of the firearm and secures it properly. As long as the holster part does that and you have it concealed, then having it in a shoulder holster, we’ll just generally use that term, would be fine. It’s the holster itself that has to meet the criteria to be a legal holster. And then, of course, you have to keep it concealed. So, keep that jacket on over that shoulder holster.

Evan Nappen 14:38
Two, it says private residences in New Jersey with no sign saying firearms prohibited, and the answer, as I discussed previously, is no. If it’s a private residence with no sign, you’re going to have to get, you know, consent verbally, or else you’re not allowed even if you’re invited into the private residence. The prohibition on private property that’s not open to the public is still in effect. And then the other question is, are trigger locks considered locks? What about a trigger lock in a gun safe? Well, trigger locks are locks. But the question really is, if your gun has a trigger lock, is that the same as having it in a locked container? No, because there the container itself has to be locked. So, if you’re using a trigger lock, yeah, that can provide that your gun is locked. But what is often found in these exemptions is the need not just to have it locked, but to have it in a locked container. That’s what’s going to give you the maximum coverage, and that’s the point. So, if you want to have a trigger lock and have it in a locked container, feel free. If you want to have it locked in your safe, okay, you can have a trigger lock on the gun in your safe. But the trigger lock itself, generally speaking, is not going to get you the exemptive coverage that you’re most likely looking for.

Evan Nappen 16:11
Now, here’s something that caught my attention that I found to be very interesting. This was an article in AmmoLand, and I really like it because it actually gave me an argument about something that has been bothering me and that we’ve discussed before. This is an article called “Why Gun Grabbers Say ‘Gun Violence’ Instead of Addressing Real Problems” by Dan Wos. (https://www.ammoland.com/2025/09/why-gun-grabbers-say-gun-violence-instead-of-addressing-real- problems/) Now this is an excellent point, and I want you all to let this sink in. You know, we’ve talked
Page – 4 – of 8
about the propaganda use of the term “gun violence” and how it’s really “criminal violence” and how it’s a propaganda term. But what I really, really, like about this article is it took it to another level, which really kind of gave me a bit of an epiphany here. So, I really want to thank Dan for pointing this out.

Evan Nappen 17:09
Let me read a quote here from this article. “To vilify guns, the political left has made it a point to attach human traits to firearms, for the purpose of animating them. They do this as often as possible. They understand that when a human element is involved, causality and intention can be used for emotional leverage. In other words, by attaching the word ‘violence’ to the word ‘gun’ and attaching the word ‘assault’ to the word ‘rifle’, the anti-gunner can peddle the notion that the firearm has behavioral tendencies.” Brilliant, brilliant. That’s exactly it. In other words, what the antis are doing is anthropomorphic. (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anthropomorphic) They are acting and creating anthropomorphic qualities to a gun. So, when we’re talking about something being anthropomorphic, we’re talking about giving something human characteristics or traits that it wouldn’t have.

Evan Nappen 18:25
Children love anthropomorphic cartoons, talking bears, talking rabbits, etc. Bears and rabbits don’t talk, but if you give them human qualities, they do. That is a form of anthropomorphic trait, giving right there. Giving it the human element. So, by doing that to the term “violence” and taking that term “violence” and attaching it to a “gun”, guns are not violent. People are violent. Violence is a human attribute, not a gun attribute. Guns don’t go around acting violent. People do. So, this is a brilliant part. The same with so-called “assault firearms” in New Jersey. Firearms don’t assault anyone. People assault. So, this is the trick. This is the propaganda tactic. This is a technique used by the Second Amendment oppressors to use the anthropomorphic term. And when they do, folks, call them out on it. I know from now on I will. Because once you can identify the propaganda technique, once you can call them out on it, you cut them off at the knees. Tell them – do not add human characteristics to an inanimate object. That is false and a lie, and you’re treating us as children by trying to make bears talk. That’s not how it works. Excellent point. Keep it in mind when dealing with those propaganda terms put out by the Second Amendment oppressors.

Evan Nappen 20:19
And now let me mention our good friends at WeShoot. So, WeShoot is range in Lakewood, where Teddy and I both shoot. An indoor range, and a great place. We love WeShoot. And this week WeShoot has some really great specials. They’re offering the SIG Sauer P320 Spectre Comp Blackout. I’ve got to tell you, folks. This is one really cool looking gun. You’ve got to see what this Spectre Comp Blackout looks like. It’s really hot. I’m digging it. Definitely. And they have it at WeShoot. And it is a showstopper. It has an integrated compensator, laser-engraved grip, and full blackout finish. It’s built for performance and style. They also have a beautiful Smith & Wesson 640, that’s the J-frame, but it’s in .357 mag. It’s stainless. It is simplicity. It is one of my favorite pocket rockets, and this one is really beautiful. It has engraving and a gorgeous grip. Check out that Smith 640 that WeShoot has. They’re also offering a Riley Defense RAK47. It’s an American-made AK with forged trunnions, wood furniture, and that iconic 7.62 by 39 punch. And it is New Jersey compliant. Of course, it is. You can have a New Jersey compliant AK, because that’s the only guns that WeShoot would ever sell. They are completely
Page – 5 – of 8
compliant under New Jersey law. So, check out those guns at WeShoot. You can go there, and you can get some great range time in. Or get some awesome training. It is the place where I got my certification, and Teddy got his certification. You can get your certification. Check out WeShoot, conveniently located right off the Parkway. It is really a fantastic range, and I know you’ll love it. Check out their website at weshootusa.com.

Evan Nappen 22:26
I also want to mention our great state association. Like I said, they’re battling right now in that case on the Carry Killer challenge. They are also challenging the so-called assault firearm law. That is a term actually in New Jersey law, believe it or not. A term in New Jersey law that has given human characteristics to a gun. It’s in our statutes, making talking bears as a prohibition. That’s right, that’s what New Jersey’s done. They’ve done it as well, when you think about it, with ghost guns. Whoo. Well, what’s a ghost? A ghost is a human spirit. Let’s give it human spirit ghost characteristics like Casper. Back to childhood cartooning to grab that emotional response. Once you see the light on this, it’s clear how the antis play this game. But our state Association is on it. They are absolutely on it. We are fighting the good fight, and we’re making progress. So, you need to be a member of the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. Make sure that you are go to anjrpc.org. Go to anjrpc.org. Join today and be a member.

Evan Nappen 24:01
And let me mention, make sure I do, my book, New Jersey Gun Law. It’s the Bible of New Jersey gun law. Make sure you get and have my book. It’ll help you navigate through the treacherous waters of New Jersey gun laws. They constantly lay out potential GOFUs and other traps to disenfranchise us of our gun rights and to continue the movement of gun rights oppression. Don’t fall for it. Protect yourself. Get a copy of my book. Just go to EvanNappen.com and order your copy today. You’ll be glad you did. It’s over 120 topics, all Question and Answer. Made easy to understand. That’s how I wrote it. It’s a labor of love, folks. Get your copy today. Teddy, what do you have for us?

Teddy Nappen 24:52
Well, as we know, Press Checks are always free. And anytime you hear where the anti-gunners try to run cover, and they say, we don’t want to take your guns where. No, that’s not what we want to do. That’s not what we want. It’s always common sense. They always sell it with common sense. Well, if you ever want to look towards the future, if the Left were ever left with unvetted power, where they had, you know, the Supreme Court, they had the house, they had the presidency. What would that look like? Look to Canada. They have just kicked off and are actually disarmament. Going through. They finally did it. The Mad Men. They established the program where they’re tackling assault style firearms, even though the list is about over 1500 types of guns. So, practically anything that falls under assault type firearms, they are now going through and doing mandatory. I love, I love the term. They always do. It’s a voluntary program. Although if you do not participate, you will be unable to seek compensation, and you will have to dispose of the prohibited firearm by exporting, deactivating or turning them into police without compensation. But it’s voluntary. It’s just quite disgusting. And this is right off of the Canadian website of the public safety aspect of their, which, you know, it’s Canada state run. (https://www.canada.ca/en/public-safety-canada/news/2025/09/government-of-canada-moves-forward- with-the-assault-style-firearms-compensation-program-for-individual-firearms-owners.html) From the
Page – 6 – of 8
BC Firearms Academy in Canada, they list off the wonderful price ranges they offer for firearms if you turn it in.

Evan Nappen 26:48
I’m sure it’s quite generous, huh?

Teddy Nappen 26:50
Oh, absolutely. So, if you have a tactical style .22 rifle, it’s about $150 to $300. Pistol, caliber carbines, tactical rim fire, or certain shotguns, that is $400 to $800. For a high range being AR-15 variants, Ruger Mini 14s, or other military-style semi automatics, it’s about 1000 to 1052. And in the special cases of Alexander Arms off, burn off, burnt.

Evan Nappen 27:34
Yeah, well, Alexander Arms is a manufacturer, yes.

Teddy Nappen 27:39
I don’t know this particular gun that they’re referencing. They said, you must call the program and we’ll determine compensation. But what they have from their ranges, it goes up to $1,520 max.

Evan Nappen 27:54
Wait, remember, that’s in Canadian dollars.

Teddy Nappen 27:56
I know. Monopoly money, so it is less.

Evan Nappen 27:58
Oh, yeah. Well, it is not surprising. It’s really a shame, and they keep running these gun boondoggles. Like their registration scheme they spent billions on and then trashed it. And I bet you a number of the Provinces are not going to stand for it, the conservative provinces that actually want to even try to have Canadians have their so-called rights. But man, one thing to be thankful for is that we’re not there yet. Although they’re trying to do it in America as well. Believe me, if the gun rights oppressionists had their way, they would try to do it here. And I’m sure they’ll try to point to Canada, as they do Australia, for the same and the formerly Great Britain. You know, this is what they do. So, we’ve got to keep an eye on what they do around the world. But, of course, we’re here, and the one thing is, what we’re blessed with, which none of these other countries have, is an actual Second Amendment right, which is a guarantee of our right to keep and bear arms.

Evan Nappen 29:19
Hey, let me tell you about the GOFU. This week’s GOFU is from a case that’s actually in the news. This is right out of nj.com. Bergen County SWAT team called to New Jersey hospital after man pulls out handgun. (https://www.nj.com/bergen/2025/10/swat-team-called-to-nj-hospital-after-man-pulls-out- handgun.html) Well, what happened here? The hospital in Bergen County was placed on lockdown after a man entered the intake area with a handgun. And guess what he did? He took out his gun. “Had removed a handgun from his person and slammed it on a table.” Slammed it, folks. Yeah, right. He
Page – 7 – of 8
slammed it. The hospital was placed on a divert status and a shelter-in-place order was implemented. Well silver, yeah. So, what? Bergen Swat. Yeah, Bergen SWAT and every and guess what? This man removed his nine millimeter from his holster during intake prior to a physical exam. And it says right in the article, “Officers later determined the man had a carry permit, but he failed to produce proof.” He had one, but he’s charged under New Jersey sensitive locations.

Evan Nappen 30:40
Okay, look, folks. Medical facilities are a sensitive location. You can’t bring your gun there. So, he brought his gun there, and then he took it out. I guess even we could speculate that he thought maybe it would be best just to remove it so that it wouldn’t be a problem. But that’s not what you do. And then, of course, when police come, you’re required to show your permit, and if you don’t have your permit on you, that itself is an offense in New Jersey. So, now he’s charged with sensitive place violation, a third degree. He’s looking at up to five years in State Prison, and he’s charged with the failure to have his permit on him, which is disorderly person defense. He’s looking at up to six months in county jail. So, it’s a GOFU.

Evan Nappen 31:31
So, what do you do if you end up where you realize you’re in a sensitive place and you shouldn’t have your gun? Make an excuse and get out. Get out and secure it properly. Don’t go pulling it out in the sensitive place. Talk about a total GOFU. Now all you’ve done is create enormous problems for yourself, and it is a classic GOFU. Don’t think there’s going to be anybody being reasonable here. You need to know the sensitive places. You have to be completely conscious about where the sensitive places are. And if you find yourself that you happen to be in one, take the remedial action. Get out and lock it in your car. Every one of your cars, if you have a gun and you carry the carry, better have a lock box in it. You better have one. It’s part of your gear, your permanent travel gear in your vehicle, so that you can secure your gun properly under sensitive place. If you end up going to a restaurant and you see they’re serving alcohol there, whoops. Get back to your car and secure it. And keep your mouth shut. You have a Fifth Amendment right against self- incrimination. So, don’t be stupid. And that’s what GOFUs are, unfortunately. Based a lot on ignorance.

Evan Nappen 33:05
This is Evan Nappen and Teddy Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 2 33:17
Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.
Page – 8 – of 8

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S3 E258_Transcript About The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.

Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

Regularly called on by radio, television and online news media for his commentary and expertise on breaking news Evan has appeared countless shows including Fox News – Judge Jeanine, CNN – Lou Dobbs, Court TV, Real Talk on WOR, It’s Your Call with Lyn Doyle, Tom Gresham’s Gun Talk, and Cam & Company/NRA News.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

Email Evan Your Comments and Questions 

• talkback@gun.lawyer

Join Evan’s InnerCircleHere’s your chance to join an elite group of the Savviest gun and knife owners in America.  Membership is totally FREE and Strictly CONFIDENTIAL.  Just enter your email to start receiving insider news, tips, and other valuable membership benefits.  

Email (required) *

First Name *

Select list(s) to subscribe toInnerCircle Membership

Yes, I would like to receive emails from Gun Lawyer Podcast. (You can unsubscribe anytime)

Constant Contact Use. Please leave this field blank.var ajaxurl = "https://gun.lawyer/wp-admin/admin-ajax.php";