Episode 257-“86” the 4473 Also Available OnSearchable Podcast Transcript Gun Lawyer — Episode 257 Transcript

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

Second Amendment, gun laws, opposition research, non-binary, 4473 form, background check, gun

violence, mental illness, gun rights, ATF, National Shooting Sports Foundation, straw purchases, gun

control, sensitive places, New Jersey gun law.

SPEAKERS

Evan Nappen, Speaker 2, Teddy Nappen

Evan Nappen 00:15

I’m Evan Nappen.

Teddy Nappen 00:17

And I’m Teddy Nappen.

Evan Nappen 00:19

And welcome to Gun Lawyer. So, as many of you know, we do what is called oppo research, opposition

research. We not only review continuously, just probably a dozen every day of various aggregate news

sites and services related to firearms, both pro-Second Amendment rights, and, of course, those that

are oppressors of our Second Amendment rights. And one of the key oppressors is Bloomturd’s

organization “Everytown” and their mouthpiece, “The Trace”. However, The Trace, and I have to say

often to their credit, does have stories that, although are completely slanted to supporting gun rights

oppression, often reveal very important things that are not revealed on the pro-gun rights sites.

Evan Nappen 01:25

It is very interesting, and that is what I want to talk about today, because the trace had a very important

story. Of course, it shows the dichotomy on the left, and it demonstrates, of course, left hypocrisy and

gun rights oppressor hypocrisy. But nonetheless, this is an article from The Trace by Will Van Sant, and

the title is, “Buying a Gun Is About to Get More Complicated for Nonbinary People”.

(https://www.thetrace.org/2025/09/gun-background-check-nonbinary-trump-atf/) Now, we’ve discussed

this very sensitive and complicated issue of trans, what the oppressors like to call gun violence. So,

how about trans gun violence? You want to add that to it? No, no. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Yeah,

right. Because it has nothing to do with either of those two prefaces? It has to do with criminal violence,

doesn’t it? But once they’ve stepped into this slippery slope and we start putting things into identifiable

groups and using propaganda terms like gun violence, well this is what happens.

Evan Nappen 02:40

And so, of course, now the left is getting their ox gored, yeah, which essentially is their entire trans

agenda. And whether you are in favor of that agenda or against that agenda, it doesn’t matter in terms

Page – 1 – of 12of this discussion. Because what we see is what is seriously the bigger picture, and that is our Second

Amendment rights. And although the case can be made that there’s greater mental illness amongst

trans, as I’ve talked about from the official studies through these Government agencies that look at it,

that there is that factor, it still doesn’t mean that, as a group, anybody should end up prohibited. And of

course, my personal Second Amendment belief is that nobody should be prohibited. As a matter of fact,

if you want to get right down to it, I don’t think we should have any gun laws. That’s right. None. Other

than for unlawful use. That’s right. Put it back the way it was meant to be under the Second

Amendment. That’s it. Use a gun to commit a crime, to do something wrong, what we call a malum in

se offense, something evil within itself. Then that is the crime. Anything else is a mallum prohibitum.

Evan Nappen 04:05

Now I get it. I get it. Because we don’t live in that utopia of being able to go back to actual pure

freedom, God forbid. So, we’re in this situation where there is an attempt to in our society that loves to

sue all the time. We need to protect gun dealers. So, oddly and interestingly, the National Instant Check

System (NICS) and essentially even the gun form itself. And, of course, PLCAA (Protection of Lawful

Commerce in Arms Act). These are all designed to protect gun dealers. Now, on one hand, you should

say, why should guns even be required to be licensed to be sold by dealers? I mean, that wasn’t

something that was originally required. There were no gun dealers at the time of the Second

Amendment that needed a license. Or at the time of the Civil War that needed a license. But we now

have this reality that we deal with, and unfortunately, it’s grown to where, in effect, weaponization by

either political party can take place.

Evan Nappen 05:15

In reality, the 4473, which is the federal form that you fill out to buy a gun. There is no need for it at all.

Okay? We should 86 the 4473 and let me tell you why. We have this so-called background check when

you buy a gun from a dealer. Why do you have to fill out any form at all? Why can’t you just show your

Government-approved identification, which is normally a driver’s license, and then run the NICS check.

You’re either approved or denied. Why do we have to fill out a form? Why do we have to fill out a form

with all this information, answering all these questions? Because it is a trap. It is a trap designed to

catch people who apparently and often inadvertently may give a wrong answer, because it’s so

complicated. Do you know whether your juvenile mental health commitment from 20 years ago is now

being viewed as an involuntary commitment or not? Did you realize whether or not your juvenile

delinquency conviction is somehow a disqualifier? Did you realize that the old misdemeanor offense

from years ago happened to be qualified as domestic violence, so you’re actually a prohibited person? I

mean, we can go on and on. And what happens is that individuals get caught in this mess when we

supposedly have a system that does the check.

Evan Nappen 06:54

If you want to identify the buyer, which even that, I would say, shouldn’t even be needed. Shouldn’t

even be necessary to happen. But okay. If the idea is for dealers to track who is sold a gun and who’s

not, if you pass the Government check and you’ve identified that you’re you, that should be all it takes.

But that’s not the reality, is it? It’s not the reality at all. Instead, we have this form. This form is loaded

with not only traps, but excess information that is frankly offensive in many ways. All right. So, let’s take

a look at, particularly at the moment, the issue regarding how will nonbinary people now have, as The

Page – 2 – of 12Trace calls, a complication, which is actually going to end up being a denial of nonbinary people, in

many instances, getting a firearm. How will that happen? Well, let me explain. You see on the form, on

the 4473, there, is a question that asks about your sex, and it originally was male or female, and that

was it. It was based on the science, imagine that. You’re either a man or a woman. Now I know we get

into the whole debate as to whether that’s righteous or not, and we don’t even have to go there.

Evan Nappen 08:24

Because what further happened is that about 13 states, possibly even more, have enacted for driver’s

licenses to say and have a choice of nonbinary. And what we were finding is that under the old form

4473, where you had to be male or female, individuals who had a binary on their driver’s license were

denied. They were denied a gun purchase because the form required you to be either male or female,

and your ID did not reveal whether you’re male or female. So, anyone with a nonbinary license

indication, they were automatically denied their Second Amendment rights because the form did not

include nonbinary. Now let me tell you something you may not realize. The addition of nonbinary to the

4473 did not actually necessarily happen because the gun rights oppressors said, hey, wait a minute.

We have to make sure that nonbinaries can still buy a gun. No, no. It was actually the National

Shooting Sports Foundation, Larry Keane specifically, according to this article, in 2018 and 2019 that

requested, okay, that actually asked for. And it says here that Keane coordinated with ATF under the

National Shooting Sports Foundation Annual Vegas Trade Show, which we call, of course, what you

know of as the Shot Show, made inquiries and they wanted to address it. And guess what? It was

added to the form. It was added to the form so that now nonbinary could, in fact, purchase firearms.

Evan Nappen 10:44

Well, as you may recall, President Trump issued an Executive Order that throughout the Federal

Government, references to anything about nonbinary would be eliminated. From the military to

Government Employment, across the board. You’re either male or female, and the gun form is now

going to not be any exception to that. Because ATF, according to this article, according to their inside

folks at ATF, you know they have the gun rights oppressor moles at ATF, and what is happening is

they’re going to remove nonbinary from the 4473. Therefore, we’re going to go back to the old days

prior to that 2018-2019 issue. So, people are going to get denied their ability to buy a firearm again

from dealers unless their driver’s license or their Government photo ID identifies as male or female. So,

this appears to be happening.

Evan Nappen 12:05

And so, this is really fascinating. Because now essentially what is of major concern on the Left, you

know, the same folks politically behind oppressing our gun rights in The Trace, right? This is a very

important issue. Look through the whole Biden administration, and you see this is now going to be a

problem. Yet, it was the pro-Second Amendment rights folks that helped to get the initial change. So,

this creates a really interesting political dynamic. And by the way, there is a group. I don’t know if you

even realize this group exists, but it’s called the Liberal Gun Club. They’re a Left-leaning gun rights

group, and their spokesman of the Liberal Gun Club is Lara Smith. According to The Trace, in an

interview, she said, I don’t mean to be flippant as it sounds, but we knew, we knew they were going to

try this. Now it is not just trans people, it’s people on the Left that they’re going to try and disarm or

political dissidents generally. So, she’s raising this issue, which, interestingly, The Trace does say all of

Page – 3 – of 12the country’s major gun rights organizations, including the National Rifle Association, the Second

Amendment Foundation and Gun Owners of America. And they have to add in, of course, which sees

its mission is grounded in the Christian Bible. How about they see their mission as grounded in the

Constitution? Like you, folks, at The Trace should, should see it, but whatever. Condemned the

reported DOJ discussions. ” I was pleasantly surprised about how quickly these big gun groups came

out and said, ‘No, you can’t do this'”. But why is that? Because, of course, gun rights supporters support

gun rights, and we’re not going to be hypocrites about it, right? But here’s the bigger issue. The bigger

issue is that the 4473, in its entirety, needs to go. It needs to go. Why, for example, are you asked on

the 4473 are you Hispanic or not? You have to either admit to your Hispanic heritage or deny Hispanic

heritage. What does that have to do with anything? It has nothing. The reason for it.

Teddy Nappen 14:42

Wasn’t that to combine with the whole Fast and Furious Operation?

Evan Nappen 14:47

Correct! This was part of the anti-gun setup to try to make the so-called Iron Pipeline of guns going to

Mexico until it blew up in their face with Fast and Furious where they actually supplied guns to cartels

that ended up killing the Agent Kerry and causing havoc by guns supplied by our own Government

through that entire fiasco. So, that killed their political approach to trying to ban firearms, particularly

semi-automatics, because then they required rifle reporting if you buy more than one rifle, but only

along the border states. And this was all part of this push. You would think that pro-Hispanic groups

would say, wait a minute, you shouldn’t be discriminating about Hispanic heritage. But it doesn’t stop

there. Why are you asked about race at all? Look, if you’re going to tell me that this is to identify who

you are, that’s what the ID does. Your driver’s license or photographic Government ID identifies you.

You don’t need any of that identification information at all. Not whether you’re male, not whether your

female, not with your nonbinary, not whether you’re Hispanic, not whether you’re an, you know, Eskimo.

None of that. It doesn’t matter. It’s irrelevant. If they just want to identify the person who’s acquiring the

firearm for purposes of their recordkeeping in the acquisition/ disposition books, the driver’s license

does it. You don’t need any form for that. And all those questions? Well, look, its real simple, folks, do

we have NICS? Do we have a NICS instant check or not? Why do we go beyond that? There’s no

reason for it. You should just give your license. It identifies you, if we’re even going to accept that. But

okay. If that’s how we have to be, you take your license, and they identify you. They run the NICS

check and either you’re approved or denied. That’s it. But that isn’t how it is.

Evan Nappen 16:49

So, interestingly, there’s actually some kind of exciting news in The Trace that’s buried in this article.

But again, I haven’t read this in any gun rights article, gun rights supporter article. In fact, it’s the

oppressors here that reveal this. But it’s actually pretty exciting. Because what it says is that the House

Subcommittee on Federal Law Enforcement says the subcommittee that the agency, by the way,

through this committee, and this is in the article, is investigating necessary changes to the background

check form. And they’re looking to, get a load of this, folks, amend the form so that applicants don’t

unwittingly misrepresent their criminal histories. Then, in addition, remove the nonbinary option. So,

whether that nonbinary option, you know, gets removed, that becomes a form of gun rights oppression,

doesn’t it? On anybody who’s nonbinary and has a license that says it and then is going to be banned.

Page – 4 – of 12Yet, on the other side of that coin there, or the other side of their action, apparently, will be reform, at

least some reform, to the 4473, which should really be 86ed completely. But at least we’re gaining on

part of that statement. Gaining some freedom and gaining some sanity, a bit of it anyway. On modifying

that form so that people who may unwittingly make a statement aren’t turned into Federal felons, right?

And New Jersey, yeah.

Teddy Nappen 18:47

I will say, just as a question, going back to prior to the NICS. Let’s say, go back in time and you go in to

buy a gun. What were you signing and filling out prior to the NICS form? What was the process? Just

kind of, looking at that line.

Evan Nappen 19:02

Well, prior, there was nothing. You could buy guns through the mail, prior to ’68 and all you do, they’d

say, do you certify that you’re over, you know, whatever the age was 21 or 18, depending on whatever

that company, you know, certifying that you’re of age and certifying that it wasn’t unlawful for you to

have a gun. You simply sign that piece of paper or let them know about it, and you bought your gun. It

was shipped directly to your door, just like you order anything today on Amazon, just like that. And

imagine we regulate firearms that are a Constitutional right to this extreme when you can buy all kinds

of things that arguably are just as dangerous in the wrong hands, maybe even more dangerous in the

wrong hands. And there’s no issue with that. So, how come, when it comes to guns, something that’s a

protected right, we have this. But prior to that, there was no form. There was no requirement for that,

and guns could be sent through the mail.

Evan Nappen 20:18

But after the Kennedys and Martin Luther King. And in ’68 when, of course, the Democrats had control

of the Government, they pushed the ’68 Gun Control Act that ended mail order and created what is to

this day, the Federal Firearms License as we now know it, and the form 4473. This is all, you know. It’s

been modified over the years, but this is where you saw that history of it take place. So, amending that

form to fix injustice in it would be a very good thing if we can’t get rid of it totally. But The Trace further

says the quote because this is in response to questions. This is The Trace, I guess, doing their work.

And I will give them credit for this, because I haven’t seen it in any of our aggregate pro-Second

Amendment rights. It says, “The ATF is in the process of updating and simplifying the Firearms

Transaction Form . . .” that’s the 4473. “to make it more concise and user-friendly for both purchasers

and federally regulated gun dealers. Additionally, reviews and appropriate changes are being made to

ensure consistency with the President’s Executive Order Defending Women From Gender Ideology

Extremism and Restoring Biological Truth to the Federal Government.”

Evan Nappen 21:55

So, whether or not you agree with the second part, and like I said, fundamentally, I don’t.

Fundamentally, of course, all the major gun groups don’t agree with that second part. Yet, you can

understand, I’m sure, President Trump’s position on it. But the first part of it is actually very exciting,

because it needs to be amended. It needs to be made more user-friendly. It needs to have that entire

revision done at a minimum. So, the first part of it is welcome news to those who support our Second

Amendment rights.

Page – 5 – of 12Evan Nappen 22:43

And I would also want to just point out a couple quick things that are very, very exciting. Number one,

the Department of Justice has filed an amicus brief supporting the NRA and the Association of New

Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs, by the way, challenge to New Jersey’s ban on assault firearms and large

capacity magazines. (https://www.nraila.org/articles/20250919/doj-files-amicus-brief-supporting-nra-

backed-challenge-to-new-jersey-s-ban-on-assault-firearms-and-large-capacity-magazines) That’s right.

The Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs, which is the state affiliate of the NRA, that legal

challenge brought by the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs in conjunction with the NRA

and with other pro-gun forces in New Jersey. By the way, the Department of Justice of President Trump

is taking our side. Our side. For once, the Government is on the side of the Constitution of the Second

Amendment. That is great, refreshing news, and very exciting. So, I am thrilled about that.

Evan Nappen 23:56

This is one of the major reasons you need to belong to the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol

Clubs. They are the premier gun rights defenders in New Jersey. Every one of my listeners should be a

member. Not only does that help us in fighting the shenanigans in Trenton with a full-time paid lobbyist

on the alert for all of their Second Amendment oppression that they try to jam into us in BOHICA (Bend

Over Here It Comes Again) after BOHICA, we are fighting those very vigorously, but they’re also in the

courts. They’re in the courts with that very assault firearm, large capacity magazine challenge,

challenging the Carry Killer bill and these others, these other violations of our rights that New Jersey

has enacted. So, you want to make sure that you’re a member of our great Association, the Association

of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. Go to anjrpc.org and join today. ANJRPC.org.

Evan Nappen 25:10

Let me tell you some exciting news about our friends at WeShoot. So, WeShoot is an indoor range in

Lakewood, New Jersey, conveniently located off the Parkway. It’s where Teddy and I both shoot and

get our training. We love WeShoot. WeShoot has some exciting news. We shoot is now BUL Armory’s,

BUL Armory’s, first and only New Jersey dealer. It’s very exciting. I don’t know if you have ever seen

BUL Armory products. They are Premier. They are fantastic. If you’ve ever, if you are into the 2011

format, you know, similar to the staccato. And, of course, they’re not calling it 2011 but most you know

this as a 2011 where you have the higher capacity, nine millimeter, but utilizing a 1911 setup on the

slide. These guns are fantastic, and they are also more reasonable than staccatos. Yet, they are

excellent guns. So, I’m a big fan of any anything that shoots. I’m not saying, you know, I’m not putting

down staccato. I own a couple, and I love them. But BUL Armory is really in a magnificent price

competition, and they are definitely a competitor. They are doing it really, really spectacularly. And if

you’ve never shot a BUL Armory firearm, you need to. They also have a line of really cool knives. And,

of course, I’m into knives, too. As you know, I have to strictly limit myself. It has to shoot or cut for me to

like it. And therefore, their blades are very cool. They even have fixed blades in which the handle

utilizes a 1911 grip, very cool. You can check out their blades and their firearms. WeShoot is the first

and only exclusive New Jersey dealer. So, get down to WeShoot, and check out the BUL Armory

products. You will be amazed at how top of the line they are. They are really cool, really great.

Evan Nappen 27:31

Page – 6 – of 12By the way, WeShoot also has plenty of other firearms to fit whatever your needs are. They have the

Ruger Precision Rimfire, which is your ultimate .22 trainer with an adjustable stock and a free folding

handguard. And of course, it is completely New Jersey compliant. So, it is a great gun. They are also

have the Springfield Armory Echelon, which is a modular, striker-fired 9mm, built for duty, defense, and

customization with its Central Operating Group chassis system. In other words, it has a fire control unit

and operates in that manner. So, check out the Springfield. You also have the Tisas 1911DS Carry. It’s

a classic 1911 design, and it has a double -capacity and modern upgrades. And these are just a few of

the really cool great guns at WeShoot. And by the way, Molly is back, and she’s asking, do you want to

see more of her? One of the beautiful WeShoot girls. She’s hitting targets and turning heads, and we’re

all here and for it. So, there you go. Check out WeShoot’s website for beautiful pictures of guns and

WeShoot girls. As a matter of fact, why don’t you go down to WeShoot and personally get acquainted

with both. So check it out at weshootusa.com. WeShoot is there to help you get the training you need to

get your licensing and skills, and you will find that it is a place where you are treated like family.

Everyone that goes there loves it, and I know you will, too. Check out weshootusa.com.

weshootusa.com.

Evan Nappen 29:21

Let me also mention my book, which is New Jersey Gun Law, the Bible of New Jersey gun law. You

need to have a copy of it. If you don’t, you are sorely losing out on the information that can save your

rights and keep you out of jail. The book is over 500 pages with 120 topics, all in a question and answer

format. Once you get the book, scan the front cover, and get on my free and private subscriber base.

You will get all the alerts for law changes. You’ll be able to immediately download the 2025

Comprehensive Update, which, by the way, has a standalone chapter on “sensitive places”. It is the

book that is a must have for every gun owner in New Jersey. Go to EvanNappen.com,

EvanNappen.com. You’ll see the big orange book right there. Click it and you’ll have your copy in days.

Teddy, what do you have for us?

Teddy Nappen 30:21

Well, as you know, Press Checks are always free, and we always like to go back to looking at the

various anti-gun agendas. More and more, I find that looking at their various arguments and things they

push for. It’s important to go back to history and to see what was the spark, what led to the creation of

their current talking points. So, we go back to everyone’s favorite anti-gun outlet, The Trace. And I love

this media article. It just caught my eye, and I thought, okay, yeah, this is the ultimate. This is how

they’re going to stop it. The mass shooters are going to stop the gun violence in the city of Philadelphia.

Do you know what’s going to stop it, Dad?

Evan Nappen 31:14

Gun violence, Teddy?

Teddy Nappen 31:16

Yeah, gun violence. Do you know what’s their argument? Philly’s latest shooting prevention law is

literally a sign in a window. (https://www.thetrace.org/2025/09/philly-straw-purchasing-prevention/)

Evan Nappen 31:28

Page – 7 – of 12Oh, signs. They work so well. Like “Gun Free School Zones” and “No Guns Allowed Here”. Oh, every

criminal will obey a sign. I mean, signs are the most powerful tool to stop crime ever invented by man.

Teddy Nappen 31:45

Correct. And this sign is required in every single gun shop in Philadelphia to discourage straw purchase

sales of firearms.

Evan Nappen 31:55

Oh, straw. Is that like from the Wizard of Oz? You know the one of the characters, the straw, uh,

Scarecrow, who’s a straw man, and he’s, you know, he’s a straw man. If it was, if a scarecrow wants to

buy a gun, then straw man purchases get prohibited, right? Isn’t that how that works?

Teddy Nappen 32:12

Well, the problem is, the problem is, the Scarecrow went down to the bad area of Philadelphia. When

they found him, he went, oh, my head’s over there, and my body’s over here! Anyways.

Evan Nappen 32:24

Right.

Teddy Nappen 32:25

Just leaning off of that, it’s this whole pushed agenda where they’re requiring every single gun shop in

Philadelphia to have that sign to crack down on straw purchase sales of firearms. And it got me

thinking, who did this? What was the start? Who originally got this whole talking point of straw

purchases? Because we’ve brought up about the famous case.

Evan Nappen 32:53

It was Dorothy. Dorothy was pissed at the Scarecrow for not having a brain.

Teddy Nappen 33:01

Yep, it was Dorothy. Anyways, going through, I actually pulled it up on the ATF website.

(https://www.atf.gov/firearms/dont-lie-other-guy) In 2000, ATF partnered with the National Shooting

Sports Foundation (NSSF) to do.

Evan Nappen 33:17

Wait a minute. The same folks that got the nonbinary added to the form (4473)? That same group?

Teddy Nappen 33:25

Yeah.

Evan Nappen 33:26

Really, isn’t that interesting?

Teddy Nappen 33:28

Page – 8 – of 12Yeah. Look, it’s one of those where seeing this is what they do. In the common sense ideology, we’d

say, okay, yeah, we don’t want, we don’t want criminals to have firearms. But they.

Evan Nappen 33:43

Actually, what it is, is we don’t want dealers to sell a gun to somebody that shouldn’t have it, because

then the dealer gets sued out of existence by gun rights oppressors.

Teddy Nappen 33:57

Yeah, and that would be, and that would be the more common sense. But even when we try to find

common ground, they abuse it. To where, if you go to any of the sites, when I over here, sure enough,

ATF Nashville Field Office teaming up with attorneys to crack down on straw purchases. And if you go

down to Giffords or you go to any other site, what are they arguing? We need to cut down on straw

purchase sales. We need a Universal Background Checks (UBC).

Evan Nappen 34:29

Oh, no, it’s Universal Background Checks, which means Universal Gun Registration. And we all know

where registration leads to? Confiscation and eventually extermination, as every major Holocaust had

that pattern occur.

Evan Nappen 34:48

We want to work with ATF. We want to work with law enforcement. And you know what? At one point,

the ATF did work with dealers, and they were not anywhere near the aggressive oppressors that they

became in the Biden administration. They were never wonderful. I mean, they were never great. But the

last four years of the senile sock puppet was weaponization like we’ve never seen before of the ATF.

And that’s the problem. Because if they get weaponized, there you go. I mean, zero tolerance.

Knocking out dealers. Their mission was to eliminate every gun dealer in the United States. And then

how are you going to buy a gun without any gun dealers? And since it requires the person to be

licensed dealer, and they knock out licensed dealers. This is that slippery slope.

Teddy Nappen 34:48

Correct. So, this is something the National Shooting Sports Foundation should not be partnered up with

the ATF, which, by the way, that is a very bad look to have on your website.

Teddy Nappen 36:00

Well, now you just highlighted Biden. Sure enough, right under that, is don’t lie for the other guy. They

highlight the 2022 Bipartisan Safer Communities Act. (https://www.atf.gov/news/press-releases/atf-and-

nssf-celebrate-25-years-partnership-dont-lie-other-guy-anti-straw-purchasing-campaign)

Evan Nappen 36:11

Ohhhh. So, it was then used to pass gun control laws, too. Yeah. Isn’t that interesting?

Teddy Nappen 36:20

So, and this is what it comes down to. I’m quite disgusted, like they should go, they’re literally going on

there. If you go on to their website for the National Shooting Sports Foundation Real Solutions, the ATF

Page – 9 – of 12and the firearm industry collab to keep firearm retail stores secure and prosecute individuals who

burglarize firearm realtors and inform the public that it is illegal to purchase a firearm for someone who

cannot pass a background check. (https://nssfrealsolutions.org/programs/dont-lie-for-the-other-guy/)

And then go to the ATF website and they get praise from the NSSF CEO, Joe Bartozzi. If I’m saying

that right. Retailers want nothing more than to keep guns out of the hands of criminals, and the don’t lie

initiative has proven that. We look forward to 25 more years of their partnership.

(https://www.atf.gov/news/press-releases/atf-and-nssf-celebrate-25-years-partnership-dont-lie-other-

guy-anti-straw-purchasing-campaign) Are you kidding me?

Evan Nappen 37:17

Oh, God. So, here’s the thing. I’m gonna let you know a dirty little secret, Teddy. It is something we’ve

seen throughout the fight for our Second Amendment rights. Industry, industry, has backed gun control.

Let me just give you a short little history lesson. The 1934 Machine Gun Act, the NFA that we’re fighting

now with the big, beautiful lawsuit. Okay? That bill. If you go back to the original hearings, you saw Colt

Auto Ordinance in favor of it passing. You saw the N R A supporting the passage of the National

Firearms Act. That’s a fact, folks. As a matter of fact, if you have the book about the Armed Citizen that

NRA put out, where they have all the great columns of the Armed Citizen in that book, there is actually

a copy of the announcement way back in the ’30s that NRA made after the passage of the National

Firearms Act, they were proud of it. They said, look, we’ve solved the gun control problem in the United

States by passing this national law.

Evan Nappen 38:36

Now, look, they were naive. They thought they were doing well. They thought they were doing good

because of the states passing all different kind of patchwork quilt of gun laws. They thought they could

solve it with one federal law and stop the states from enacting their laws. But, of course, that didn’t

work. And as far as federal law was concerned, well, for little over 30 years, there wasn’t much else in

federal gun law. But then ’68 comes along, and the groundwork has been laid with the foundation of the

prior national gun ban, the National Firearms Act that was officially supported by the NRA back then. I

don’t want to judge them by our enlightened understanding of the problems of doing that, you know,

back then. But they did, and it was a naive mistake, for sure. But you had industry even then,

supporting it as well. And then, guess what? The ’68 Gun Control Act. Do you know who was

supporting it? Major gun makers, major gun makers. They wanted to stop military surplus guns from

coming in because that was affecting their manufacturing in the U.S. They didn’t have a problem with

imported handguns having to meet all kinds of other criteria, because that stopped their domestic sales.

Right? You saw the ’68 Gun Control Act backed by industry.

Evan Nappen 40:03

Hell, you saw the Rose Garden ceremony with (President) Clinton and Smith & Wesson there

supporting it, right? That’s what they with their support. Because they thought they had the internal lock

deal secured for their handgun, and this would become the basis for Smith & Wesson and others to

make their money. So, they said, hey, let’s support this. And they’re supporting, again, an agenda that

is gun rights oppression. So, this is something that unfortunately occurs, and even our so-called pro-

gun rights organizations seem to, at times, be short sighted. Or so focused on their business interests

Page – 10 – of 12and their folks that are members that have this business interest that they don’t see how it will be

abused and used and taken advantage of by the gun rights oppressors.

Evan Nappen 41:02

I really appreciate you pointing out us having to deal with the straw man, the straw man. Which is now,

you know, another term of art, if you will. The same way they call it “gun violence” instead of “criminal

violence”. They have something else now to hang their hat on, to sell their gun rights oppression

agenda, and unfortunately, we helped to create that one. So, it’s a shame, but you can understand why.

They had good intentions, right? But as the old saying goes about good intentions, right? It’s that road

to hell. That’s what it’s paved with.

Evan Nappen 41:43

So, let me tell you about this week’s GOFU. This week’s GOFU, the Gun Owner Fuck Up. And why do

we talk about GOFUs? Because it is expensive lessons that gun owners learn, and it costs them their

gun rights, their freedom, lots of money, and if you can learn from that, then you can be protected, and

you can learn from these errors and mistakes. That’s why we talk about GOFUs. And this week’s

GOFU is actually from a letter that I received from Joel. It highlights what is potentially a big GOFU.

Luckily, I don’t think Joel has actually officially become a GOFU, but he highlights something that does

help to create GOFUs. Let me read you his letter. Hi, Evan. I recently serendipitously, heard

serendipitously that the enforceability of New Jersey gun laws changed due to recent court rulings. I

didn’t hear this from the State of NJ directly, even though they have my contact info as part of my carry

permit registration process. Now, you know what? That’s a good point. They know who has a carry

licenses. How come a bulletin isn’t emailed, at a minimum, emailed, if not mailed, from the State to

carry permit holders, laying out the case law and what is and is not a sensitive place? Do we have any

official informational booklet of any type put out by our Government that explains where you can and

cannot carry your handgun so you don’t get in trouble? No, of course not, because they want you to get

into trouble.

Evan Nappen 43:45

The only thing out there that will help you is my book, New Jersey Gun Law, and download the 2025

update that has “sensitive places” explained. Our Government doesn’t send it out, and they know, yet

they know who the people are. And Joel goes on, while ignorance of the law is no excuse, is it in any

way negligent of the State of New Jersey to charge me a fee to register for a permit and provide key

contact information in the process without subsequently using that info to directly inform me of the ways

to use my permit significantly affected by formal legal changes? Now the question is that negligent? No,

you can’t sue them over that, not that I’m aware of. Is it something they should be doing? Hell yeah,

they should be. But again, that’s not part of their agenda. It’s not part of what they want. They don’t

want you to be, actually, a law-abiding gun owner. There’s very minimal done to that effect. And you’re

right, they could easily let us know, but they don’t. Yet they should. Now maybe they’ll come out with

something, because to the State Police credit, they do actually have an FAQ on their website

answering many gun questions. But they don’t have any detailed FAQ on “sensitive places”. At least, if

they did that in furtherance of their mission, which I’m thankful they at least have what they do have, it

would help give guidance. Because law-abiding gun owners want to stay law-abiding gun owners,

right? So, put it out there.

Page – 11 – of 12Evan Nappen 45:19

But as far as saying, because you go into a sensitive place or didn’t know case law changes and you’re

suddenly have a problem, can you then say, oh, well, New Jersey didn’t tell me about it, so I’m not

guilty of it. Now that defense isn’t going to work, unfortunately. Now if New Jersey does put out official

proclamation about what is and isn’t a sensitive place, then you can rely on that. And if a court ends up

saying what they said was wrong, then actually, Joel, ignorance or mistake of law is a defense, a

statutory defense in New Jersey, as long as you’re relying on an official statement by the government.

But their failure to do it does not give an ignorance or mistake of law argument. So, that’s probably one

of the other reasons they don’t want to do it, because they know then people can rely on it and would

ultimately have a defense of ignorance or mistake of law.

Evan Nappen 46:21

Then Joel goes on, especially at a time when court rulings can have substantial implications for legal

gun owners with carry permits. At what point is the failure to directly notify registered permit holders an

intentional act or omission on the part of the State? What are permit holders legal obligations to actively

stay up to date with court rulings on their own? And here’s the deal. There isn’t. There is no implication

for failure to notify. There’s no omission type argument by the Government. Nope. It ain’t going to fly.

Permit holders obligations are to know and to obey the law. It is squarely placed on the gun owner to

know all that. And so the GOFUs are ready to happen. The Government does not help in any way there

on sensitive places to stop it. It is something that should be done across the board. They should be

putting out all kinds of information. Look, if you want to hunt or fish in New Jersey. You can get the

whole compendium right online that breaks down the laws so that you can be a lawful hunter, a lawful

fisherman, a lawful trapper. Where’s that for gun owners? Where’s that for carrying your gun? Where’s

the gun owner Compendium put out by the State of New Jersey for the Second Amendment exercise. It

ain’t there, folks. It ain’t there. And it ain’t there because of their gun rights oppression agenda. I’m

telling you. This is what we deal with every day in the practice of gun law, of individuals who are law-

abiding criminals. That’s right. They’re law-abiding and turned into criminals, and they are officially

victims of New Jersey gun law.

Evan Nappen 48:39

This is Evan Nappen and Teddy Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from

criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 2 48:50

Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by

Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and

opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.

Page – 12 – of 12

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S3 E257_Transcript About The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.

Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

Regularly called on by radio, television and online news media for his commentary and expertise on breaking news Evan has appeared countless shows including Fox News – Judge Jeanine, CNN – Lou Dobbs, Court TV, Real Talk on WOR, It’s Your Call with Lyn Doyle, Tom Gresham’s Gun Talk, and Cam & Company/NRA News.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

Email Evan Your Comments and Questions 

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