Patrick McKay is an apostle for the Joint Conference of Restoration Branches (JCRB.) He’ll discuss breaking away from the RLDS Church, and his attempts to unify the Restoration Movement. We’ll talk about how he uses the Book of Mormon to do that. I’ll also ask him about archaeological, DNA, and other problems with the Book of Mormon, and whether he thinks he could unify with polygamist groups.  Check out our conversation…

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Who is Patrick McKay?

Interview

GT  00:48  Welcome to Gospel Tangents. I’m excited to have apostle from the Joint Conference of Restoration Branches. Is that right?

 

Patrick  00:57  That’s correct.

 

GT  00:57  All right. So, tell us your name. And we want to learn a little bit more about the JCRB.

 

Patrick  01:02  Okay, my name is Patrick McKay. And I am an apostle in the Joint Conference of Restoration Branches. You know, there’s apostles in all the restoration groups and people worry, there’s 12, 24, 48. I’m not concerned. It’s more about function, than it is form. And every branch the restoration has some divine inspiration, or at least belief in a divine inspiration of what God’s planned for them. And we come out of the Reorganization. We’re trying to remain faithful to what we originally embraced as a church, and we do a lot of missionary work. And we have Seventies. Seventies, according to latter day revelation, are to labor under at the direction of the apostles. So that’s why we have them.

 

GT  01:47  Okay, so do you have 12 apostles?

 

Patrick  01:49  We have eight.

 

GT  01:50  Eight, okay. I’ve always wondered, it sounds like the JCRB, did they start in about 1984, after the revelation on women in the priesthood in–well, now Community of Christ? It used to be the RLDS Church.

 

Patrick  02:06  No, in 1984, there was one independent branch that was formed. It was called the Independence Branch, and I happened to be one of the charter members. We had studied for a couple of years. We had had our licenses removed in the church, what they call a silencing.

 

GT  02:23  Oh.

 

Patrick  02:24  Because we had met in some alternative settings on non-scripted Sundays, or whatever. And as a result of that, the church silenced people who met in these alternative settings. So, for a couple of years, we had nowhere to go to church. So, we simply met and studied and looked at the early history of the reorganization and felt that we could form branches that work continue through that avenue. If there was an elder, then a branch could be raised up. And we did that. So, a lot of years went by before we believed that we could create a conference. And that happened in 2005. There was initial effort to gather people to talk about a conference. We met in the historic Stone Church. Then later that year, we held our first conference, and we invited as many people in the restoration branch movement as we could possibly contact. We had 76 branches attend the first conference.

 

GT  03:20  Wow.

 

Patrick  03:21  That was national and international. So, it was it was a Branch conference, the way we designed it, was a branch would have one delegate vote. And every 25 members would get another delegate vote. That way, people that didn’t live in [the] Independence area could have representation at the conference. So, in 2005, in 2008, we had a group of Restoration 70 that had petitioned the conference for three years, asking, “Could they regenerate the Quorum of Seventy.” It’s an interesting office. It’s self-perpetuating, but they need conference approval. So, in 2008, the conference had what they felt was some inspiration to accept that and they authorized that and 10 men were chosen to be Seventies, in addition to the four they had. So, as a result of that, the conference began to take on a little bit of size and so forth. It continued to expand and we’re busy in about 23 countries. So, we have a bunch of Seventy that are laboring for several years. In 2016, there was a revelation that was presented. It was never written or never codified, as far as being placed in the Doctrine and Covenants. It was kind of like, in our church, a presiding elder has a revelation about a call to the ministry, and the congregation votes on it. But it’s not a revelation that’s considered a document that’s worthy of being placed in a book volume of Scripture. And so, the Conference accepted that testimony. A couple of names were presented. They were voted on, and they were ordained. And those two apostles, then, over a period of time, began selecting others. And so that’s where we are today.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Who Has Authority? “One True Church”

Interview

GT  05:14  Very interesting. Well, one of the things that I love, you’ve got a great book, why don’t you go ahead and show us. [Hold] up, Healing the Breach. Tell us why you wrote that book.

 

Patrick  05:27  Well, you know, that’s interesting. I grew up in the RLDS Church, the Reorganized Church, and like most branches of the restoration, we believe we’re it. Every branch of the Restoration you talk to, they believe they’re the one, true church that is a continuation of what began in 1830. As I was reading Section one, one day, it’s in your Doctrine & Covenants, section one and in ours. He refers to this as the only true and living church on the face of the earth, speaking to the church collectively, and not individually. I paused and I thought, “What does that mean, collectively?” We knew in Joseph’s day, there was only one organization. But following his death, it fractured into many groups and is continued to fracture throughout the course of time. I began to think a lot about that and recognize there were people that were really inspired in the Restoration, had given their lives to it, had devoted their lives and brought their children up in the gospel and had made a real impact, whether they were Mormon or RLDS or Hedrickite, or Church of Christ Bickertonite, or the Elijah Message, and so forth.

 

Patrick  06:33  So, we began visiting some of these groups of people, and we thought [that] we’d get to know them, worship with them, stay in their homes, invite them into our home. We had opportunity to speak in their churches. We discovered something we had never known before. Here was a group of people that were very much like us but had taken a different path. I like to think of the story of the woman at the well. Jesus goes and meets the Samaritan woman. And the Jews don’t have any dealings with the Samaritans and the Samaritans certainly don’t talk to the Jews. But Jesus talked to both. And we thought, “Is it possible that Jesus is speaking to our branch of the restoration, and he may be speaking to another branch, but we’re not speaking to each other, so we’re not aware of it?” So that’s kind of what set us on this course. And as we spent time with these different people, we had just an overwhelming awareness that these were the Lord’s people, just as committed and dedicated as any other group of the restoration. So that was how I got started in that process, Rick.

 

GT  07:35  Yeah, well, that’s great. I mean, one of the things I loved about the book was you really tried to get a lot of testimonies. In fact, I think it should be called the Book of Miracles, because every time somebody bore their testimony, it was about a miracle that happened, which I thought was great. But I loved how you tried to get different voices of the Restoration, throughout. I guess one of the things that I’ve been struck by is the Strangites. I believe you had some Strangites in there, is that right? {Patrick nods.} The reason I asked that is one of their beliefs–they don’t have any apostles anymore, or prophet, and they believe–I’m trying to remember how they say it. “The lesser cannot ordain the greater.” And that you basically need an angelic ordination in order to become an apostle or a prophet, as the case might be. And since James Strang didn’t ordain any new apostles, once the apostles died out, then there were no more. So, it’s interesting as you’ve gone to all these, there’s those different beliefs. If a Strangite came to you and say, “Well, how could you be an apostle? Did you have an angel ordain you?” How would you respond to that?

 

Patrick  08:54  Well, I wouldn’t be able to say that. But what I would say is, “There was a time when the Reorganized Church and the Mormon Church debated this vociferously. And the criticism to the Reorganization that the stream can’t rise higher than its source. So, the Utah Church says, we have the apostles. We have the keys, and so you couldn’t ordain Joseph [III] and so forth in the Reorganization.

 

GT  09:21  Right, yeah.

 

Patrick  09:22  But our position was, is that the source of stream is God and if God commands, there’s [not] anything you can’t do and so we believe Joseph, the third taught, that God could regenerate the church from a single elder, if he was commanded to do so. And so, within the Melchizedek priesthood is that power to regenerate, to reorganize, to recombine the church, whatever term we might want to use.  And that was the position of the Reorganization. It’s interesting, you brought Strang into this, because the two principal elders in the early days of the Reorganization, were both ordained in Strang’s movement.

 

GT  09:59  Right.

 

Patrick  10:00   In fact, Jason Briggs, who was chosen to preside over the formation of the Reorganization in 1853, on the strength of his office of a High Priest. On April 6, 1846, he was ordained to high priests under the hands of James J. Strang. And he became the first apostle chosen and then he, in turn, ordained the next six.

 

GT  10:22  For Strang?

 

Patrick  10:23  No, for the Reorganization.

 

GT  10:25  Oh, the Reorganization.

 

Patrick  10:25  So that became an interesting thing. And, he was never re-ordained, or he never had to set that down. Strang had been ordained by Hyrum Smith. He had been ordained a high priest. Strang claims he was ordained by an angel at the hour that Joseph was killed. But going back to just his priesthood, and William Marks, and let’s see. I’m trying to think, Zenas Gurley, as well as Jason Briggs, had all been in that movement in one way or another. So, it’s interesting. We’re of the persuasion and not everyone shares this, that when Joseph died, the church fractured. There were men in the ministry in all of these groups. And that begged the question, did they all lose their authority as soon as Joseph died, if they didn’t go one way or another? And we’ve been persuaded over time and witnessing and experiencing what we’ve seen, miracles that have been demonstrated in their testimony, that God is in the matter. He’s been involved in all of these branches of the restoration. And this book isn’t designed to say that one group is better than the other. I’m in the reorganization. That’s where God planted me. I have a testimony that the teachings that we have, I believe are scripturally based. But that doesn’t mean if I have authority that you wouldn’t have authority, Rick. We assume, because I have authority, you can’t. But it’s very hard to prove a negative. We can all say, “We have authority, but you must not.” And I simply believe that there’s a new day dawning for the Restoration, where there are people that God has planted in all of these groups, and it’s his intention to weave us back together.

 

GT  12:14  Yeah, I liked– it seems like when we were back in Independence about a month ago, one of the things that I remember you saying to me at that restaurant was, “We need to quit worrying about all these authority claims.” Is that right? Am I characterizing you right?

 

Patrick  12:30  Yeah. Well, what I said was in Protestant Christianity, they resisted the teachings of the papacy. And in the Catholic faith, they believe the Pope is the vicegerent of God, that he speaks ex cathedra. They believe in intercessory priesthood. Protestantism protested that. They reject that, and they replaced that with the Bible. The Bible became inerrant. And so, in Protestant Christianity, if you believe in Jesus and you accept the Bible as Word of God, there’s room for you in the tent, whether you’re a Methodist, Pentecostal, or Presbyterian, whatever. Well, in the Restoration, I’d like to think if we all believe in Christ, and we believe in the Book of Mormon, that there’s room under the tent. The problem is the elephant in the room is authority.

 

GT  13:16  Right. That’s what you say.

 

Patrick  13:17  And so, in Protestant Christianity, the authority is the Bible, so you can be unhappy in the Pentecostal church, and you can go over here to the Assembly of God, or go over here.  But in Latter-day Saint-ism, only one church claims to have authority, there’s a little group…

 

GT  13:33  Every church claims they’re the only one with authority, right?

 

Patrick  13:36  In fact, there’s a little group right behind the RLDS Auditorium on Cottage Street in Independence, and they have about 12 members worldwide.

 

GT  13:46  The Cutlerites, yes.

 

Patrick  13:47  The Cutlerites, and they’re the one true church.

 

GT  13:50  Yeah, I so bad want to get one of them on my podcast. They’ve always told me no.

 

Patrick  13:57  They’re a really sweet group of people. They really are nice.

 

GT  14:01  Yeah. Friendly, one of the friendliest people I’ve ever met. That’s great.

Restoration Testimonies

Interview

GT  14:05  So, talk a little bit more about your book, because it kind of sounds like a Unity movement, Healing the Breach. Is that what you’re trying to do is get all the, I don’t know if I should say Mormon. I probably should say Restoration, rather than Mormon. Right? [You’re trying to get] all the restoration groups back together. Is that what you’re trying to do?

 

Patrick  14:25  Well, I believe ultimately, God says, “If you’re not one, you’re not mine.” And I think that’s an indictment on all of us to one degree or another. There’s a story in the Book of Mormon. I believe it’s more than a story. I believe it’s a true prophecy. It’s the parable that Jacob gives in the Book of Zenos, He talks about Zenos’ prophecy from brass plates. And it’s interesting he talks about how the children of Israel were removed from places and put in different parts of the vineyard, some in a good spot, some in a poor, some in a better, some in choice spot. But they all bore fruit. And Nephi, explaining the vision that he and his father had to his brothers, they didn’t understand. He said, “I can liken all scripture unto us,” referring to Isaiah. So, we can liken all scripture unto us, Rick, in our day. So, I think the various fractions of the Restoration are very much like the scattering of Israel. And all were blessed, regardless of where they went, some in a good spot, some in a poor spot, but they all bore fruit. And I think that’s true of the Restoration. All of the groups of the Restoration have been able to bear fruit to a greater or lesser degree. So, I see the day will come when we’ll be all grafted back into the same body.

 

Patrick  15:44  Now I like to give a little, I have a lot of metaphors in my book. And I like to think of it this way. All of these organizations have kept the Saints alive. They’ve stirred us and fed us and nourished us to whatever degree you think, like a mother does when she carries a child. But after nine months, and the baby’s born, what happens to the placenta? It’s cast aside. And I actually see all of the organizations of the Restoration, like a placenta. Eventually, they’ll be cast aside, and we’ll have a living, breathing body of Christ. That doesn’t mean there won’t be some organization. But we’ve become so institutionalized and there’s so much bureaucracy and maintaining each of our organizations, that we’ve lost sight of the real message of Christ, which is the Restoration of the House of Israel, preparing and gathering us and preparing us for the return of Christ. So, that’s kind of, in a nutshell, what I think about all the organizations. I think they’re all useful. And you can say one’s better than the other, whatever you want. But I believe God’s finger has been on all of them, to a greater or lesser degree, to keep the Saints alive until He moves to reunite us.

 

GT  16:59  Yeah. You talked a little bit about, in your book, about genetic diversity. Can you tell us that story a little bit better?

 

Patrick  17:09  Well, sure. In nature, if you marry within a certain family, all of a sudden you start having mutations develop. And so, if you have a wider circle, whether it’s with animals or plants or people, the chance of surviving is a lot better. You have a diverse field. And if you marry within the same structure over and over again, that manifests itself after time. And so, in the Restoration, what we’ve done, we’ve tried to remain pure, and we don’t want any wrong influences coming into our church. So, we don’t want anything to do with the Mormons, let’s say for RLDS or the Bickertonites don’t want anything to do with the other branches. They even say, “We’re not a part of any other Restoration branch.” And that’s their identity. And what happens is, it’s just like in nature. Certain elements come along, and we’re not able to deal with the disease or the shortcomings in life. And what we have is criticism against Mormonism in general. In the constellation of Mormonism, it doesn’t matter whether you’re a Bickertonite or a Hedrickite, or a Josephite. The world sees us all as Mormons. In fact, if I tell people I believe in the Book of Mormon, they’ll say, “Oh, you’re a Mormon.”

 

Patrick  18:30   And I like to respond and say, “Do you believe in the Bible?”

 

Patrick  18:32   And they say, “Well, yeah.”

 

Patrick  18:33   I say, “Are you a Bible?” And so, they understand, but the world see us, really, Rick, more clearly than we see ourselves.

 

Patrick  18:42  We are in that same banner of Mormonism, because we’re not Catholic, and we’re not Protestant. Now, we may not be Utah Mormons, or we may not be Prairie Saints Mormons, but we’re all kind of in that same basket. At least, that’s how the world sees us. We would say, “Well, we’re not Mormons, or we’re not this,” but we do have a common identity, we go back to the same origin, we share many of the same concepts: the restored priesthood, the divinity of the Book of Mormon, the gathering of Israel. We believe in angelic visitations. We believe in the gifts of the Spirit, the fruits of the Spirit. We really have a lot in common, but we spent all of our time defining ourselves by who we’re not. “Are you Mormon?”

 

Patrick  19:29  “No,  I believe in Book of Mormon, but I’m not a Utah Mormon.” And that’s how we’ve defined ourselves. And that’s a negative approach. I don’t think you build success with a negative message. I think you’ve got to be positive.

 

GT  19:41  Yeah, very good. I mean, because that does bring up another thing. President Nelson, in the LDS Church, has just said that we shouldn’t call ourselves Mormons anymore. And it sounds like you get that quite a bit. Would you consider yourself part of Mormonism or Restoration? Or how would you prefer to call yourself?

 

Patrick  20:05  We’d probably say we’re part of the Restoration. If the world refers to me as a part of Mormonism, that’s just an opportunity to discuss and talk about it. President Nelson did say we’d like to be called, “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or we could just be called The Church of Jesus Christ.” Do you know how many Churches of Jesus Christ there are?

 

GT  20:26  I do know!

 

Patrick  20:27  Within the Restoration. In the Restoration Branch Movement, we refer to ourselves as the Church of Jesus Christ, this restoration branch or that restoration branch. There was a time when some of us thought we could reclaim the name, the Reorganized Church, and the Community of Christ sued us. And so, they trademarked the name. They don’t use it, but they warehouse it, no one else can use it. So, we call ourselves the Church of Jesus Christ-Restoration Branch, whichever one we happen to attend.

 

GT  20:46  Well, and I’ve noticed in Independence, you’ll see little variations on the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, like the Restored Branch of Jesus Christ or things like that. Every time I would see a church, I’m like, “That’s got to be a Mormon church.” (Chuckling) I remember, I would take pictures. You mentioned, what we call Bickertonites, their official name is the Church of Jesus Christ. I know they got a lot [of website traffic] after President Nelson’s talk. They got a lot of traffic on their website, because that’s what they had. But the Cutlerites, also, are the Church of Jesus Christ. And there’s a lot of them and especially in Independence, if you just drive around, it was amazing to me. Like, I know Jim Vun Cannon’s group, the Everlasting Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Days. The weirdest thing is my hotel is right by there. I stopped by their church. So, it really is helpful to get some of these names, the Hedrickites, the Bickertonites, the Cutlerites, so that we can distinguish. But I love this, and I don’t know, would you call it a unity movement? Are you trying to bring everybody back together?

 

Patrick  22:16  Well, I don’t feel like I have any power to do anything like that. I’m just trying to give people something to think about that, if you look far enough down a highway, a two-lane road, you only see one lane. And I think the Lord intends to heal the breach in the restoration. So, what I’m interested in doing is creating dialogue, finding out who these folks are out there that we’ve kept at arm’s length, and realize that, when you like somebody, and you really care about them, it’s a little harder to be critical of them. And when you hear their testimony, and my book is full of testimonies, miracles, from different branches of the Restoration. And if you had a miracle in your church, Rick, that you saw someone raised from the dead, or an angel appeared, or a prophecy was delivered, and it came to pass shortly thereafter, you would say that’s evidence that we’re the Lord’s people, that we’re where God planted us, that we’re the true church. But you go over here to a different branch of the Restoration, and they have a parallel experience.  And not only do I have experiences in the book, but they’re parallel, whether it’s an angelic visit, whether it’s a healing, whether it’s using the– what do we call it? The anointing of the handkerchief, whether it’s the gift of speaking in tongues; It’s remarkable how really similar we are. But we don’t know, because we just don’t dialogue.

 

GT  23:40  Oh, absolutely. I know all of the groups are very exclusive. “We’re the ones. We’re God’s chosen people.” As I read your book, the thought that came to my mind was, there were so many miracles in there.

 

GT  24:06  Jesus says, “These are the signs that follow those that believe, healing sick, speaking in tongues,” stuff like that. And that book was just chock full of miracles. So, how can we be the only church that experiences miracles when you have Bickertonite miracles, and Strangite miracles, and all these other miracles? Do you have an explanation for that?

 

Patrick  24:30  Well, I do. I think these miracles exist among these people, because they’re his people. And I think that when you exercise faith, and you’ve obeyed the gospel– we disagree over the gospel. In the Mormon Church, for instance, there’s a lot of doctrines, the doctrine of the priesthood, and so forth, temple doctrines and so forth. In the Book of Mormon, Jesus says, “There’s one doctrine. This is my doctrine: faith, repentance, baptism, and the reception of the Holy Ghost.” Well, all of the Restoration churches believe that. We believe that when we baptize people in the waters of regeneration, that their sins are remitted, and they receive the laying on our hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost. Jesus goes on to say, “If you teach more or less than this, you’re, not of Me.” In fact, in the earliest days of the Restoration, before the church had been restored, while they’re in the process of translating the Book of Mormon, Jesus defines his church, “Whosoever repented, and cometh unto me, the same as my church. Whosoever teaches more or less than this is not of Me, but it’s of the devil.” That’s a pretty simple explanation. There’s another passage in Nephi. He says, and it’s often misquoted in the Reorganized Church, people will quote it this way, “The day will come when there will be only two churches: the Church of the Lamb of God, and the Church of the devil.” But the Book of Mormon doesn’t say that. It says there are save two churches, only; the Church of the Lamb of God, and the Church of the devil.”

 

Patrick  26:02  So the church has got to be bigger than what we have envisioned, that it’s just our little part of the restoration. In fact, there are people outside the restoration, the Lord spoke to Sidney Rigdon, when he was called into the work and recognized some of the work that he had done. But he said, “There are none that doeth good, except those who are ready to receive the fullness of my gospel.” Well, there are people outside the Restoration that haven’t embraced the gospel, but maybe they’re ready to receive it. If a quarterback goes back to throw the football, and there’s five or six receivers, only one of them may catch the ball, but they all have to be ready to receive it. And I think there are people out there ready to receive it. The problem is, we’re so mixed up among ourselves and define ourselves by who we’re not and separating ourselves from one another, that we’re having a hard time passing that ball down the field to those receivers that are ready to receive it. So, I think there’s a lot of help on the way, Rick. I think there’s some awesome Christians out there that would be enriched by the message of the Restoration. It’s not so much that we came to tear down what they have, [but] that the gospel came to build up that which they had. So, we have a very positive message. That’s why Section one says [that] we’re the only true and living church. You know, when I share the Gospel, I don’t stress that particular verse that way. That means when you tell someone, “Well, I belong to the only true and living church,” they think, “Oh, well my church is dead and false.”

 

GT  27:33  Right.

 

Patrick  27:34  So it’s not a real winning message. And that doesn’t mean that that couldn’t be true. It just means that’s not a good marketing strategy to tell the story. I think that we ought to be mindful of the fact that God is laboring with people outside the Restoration. He’s answering their prayers. He’s guiding, directing them. They’re having blessings. And there’s a lot of virtue outside the Restoration that would enrich us, as well, as a people. We have something to offer them, but we need be and have a platform where we can share it with them. And the more united we are, the stronger and wider our testimony would be. In fact, I like to talk about how each of the groups of the Restoration have a unique personality. The Mormon Church is a powerful organization. They accomplish a lot of things. They’ve translated the Book of Mormon into 100 plus languages. That’s significant. That’s remarkable. You have the little church over here, The Church of Jesus Christ (Bickertonite.) They’re very small in comparison. But they’re, like Steve Pynakker, says they’re a Pentecostal branch of the Restoration. Well, all of us believe in the Pentecostal-type gifts, but they’re a gifted church. And so, each of these groups have something different to offer. And there’s a synergy that will be formed when we come together, as a people, and we marry our strengths, and it minimizes our weaknesses, and it enlivens our testimony.

 

GT  29:02  Yeah. Since you brought that up, I was impressed with the number of Bickertonite testimonies you have in your book. Has it been easy to work with certain groups more than others, in order to get those testimonies?

 

Patrick  29:17  Well, just in having an opportunity to mingle among different people, you hear testimony, or you might receive a book from them or a journal and you read it and you find these testimonies or you have personal experience with them. And it wasn’t hard to obtain them. It just took a period of time. But we met a lot of wonderful Latter-day Saints in the Church of Jesus Christ, and they have some wonderful testimonies. We’ve met some wonderful members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints who have wonderful testimonies. And we have many in the Reorganized Church. So, it’s just a matter of listening and making notations and collecting them and putting them in a book.

 

GT  29:58  Because I noticed you had President Nelson in there. That was just a conference address he gave. It wasn’t like you personally wrote him and said, “Hey, can you give us your testimony of the Book of Mormon?”

 

Patrick  30:07  No, but I have a funny testimony about that. Actually, that was when he was a surgeon.

 

GT  30:11  Okay.

 

Patrick  30:11  Before he was, I suppose, before he was in the Quorum of the Twelve.

 

GT  30:15  I was trying to remember if that was President Kimball’s [surgery.] Because he operated on President Kimball. He was President Kimball’s heart surgeon.

 

Patrick  30:22  Oh? Well, he did administer, excuse me, he performed surgery on a Patriarch in your church. And that’s what his testimony is about.

 

GT  30:31  Okay.

 

Patrick  30:32  So when I was getting ready to publish this book, Lulu Publishing, it’s a self-publishing organization. And they said, “We can’t use that testimony.  It’s too long.”

 

Patrick  30:43  And I thought, “Well, gosh, it’s not really any longer than some other ones in the book. In fact, there are others that are a couple pages longer.”  But, anyway, they wouldn’t let me publish it. So, I was at BYU, and I went down to the copyright office and tried to get some help and really didn’t get anywhere.

 

Patrick  31:00  And finally they said, “Well, maybe you have to get an audience with the First Presidency, meet President Nelson.”

 

Patrick  31:06  I said, “Well, how long will that take?”

 

Patrick  31:07  They said, “Probably five or six months.”

 

GT  31:10  (Chuckling)  That’s been my experience, too.

 

Patrick  31:11  I decided to try something different. So, I went home, and I contacted a copyright attorney, explained to him my situation.  A couple of weeks went by. I didn’t hear from him. I contacted him, and he said, “Now tell me again, what it is you’re looking for.”

 

Patrick  31:25  I said, “Well, there’s this testimony I want to put in my book. And the publisher says I can’t use it because it’s too long.”

 

Patrick  31:32  And he says, “Well, who is this person?”

 

Patrick  31:34  I said, Well, he happens to be the president of a worldwide church, maybe 16-17 million people.

 

Patrick  31:39  And he said, “You mean he’s like the Pope?”

 

Patrick  31:43  And I said, “Well, in a sense, because he’s a leader of a worldwide church.”

 

Patrick  31:46  He says, “I get it.”

 

Patrick  31:47  So, he writes the publisher, and they sent back a release and they said, “You can use this testimony.” So, it’s in the book.

 

GT  31:54  So he wrote to Lulu or he wrote to…

 

Patrick  31:58  He wrote to Lulu, who was my publisher.

 

GT  32:00  Okay.

 

Patrick  32:00  Yeah.

 

GT  32:01  And they said it was okay.

 

 

 

Book of Mormon Restoration Conference

Interview

GT 32:08  I know, Robert Millet was on the back cover and he had attended a conference [that] you–were you instrumental in bringing that Book of Mormon conference in Independence?

 

Patrick  32:15  Well, several years ago, probably about 2010 or 2011, myself and another elder came out here and we met some professors at BYU. We had a wonderful discussion. And Bob Millet said to me, Robert Millet said to me, “If there’s anything we can ever do for you, just let us know. We’re glad you’re believers in the Book of Mormon.”

 

Patrick  32:37  And I said, “Well, there is something you can do. We are holding a Restoration, a Book of Mormon festival in Independence. And we’re wondering if the BYU professors would like to be a part of it.”

 

Patrick  32:47  So they said, “Yeah.” So, a couple of professors came out and spoke, and it was a real hit. They came out, Keith Wilson and Richard Moore. They were a couple of guys that came out and then we created a committee. We worked in conjunction with BYU. We created a two-night event. We’d be one night in an LDS facility and one night in an RLDS or Reorganized building or Remnant Church, something. And we made sure we had Mormons on each night and non-Mormons on each night, so everybody would come. And Bob Millet came and spoke and the testimony my book, he shared in my home branch after the symposium was over, or the festival. He came and spoke in our congregation. In fact, I’ve got to tell you about that. We had seven professors upfront at church one Sunday morning, and I was in charge of the service. My brother, Jim, was upfront with me and another man by the name of Joseph Smith. He’s a great-grandson of Joseph Smith, Jr. He’d been raised in the Hedrickites, the Temple Lot Church.

 

GT  33:55  Oh, wow.

 

Patrick  33:55  So before the [meeting,] we went up front. We all met in the pastor’s study and I said, “I want you folks from BYU to know that when you go back home, you can tell your Saints, that you found the land of Zarahemla.” That was the name of our branch, the Zarahemla Branch, “And that you met Joseph Smith.”

 

GT  34:13  (Chuckling)

 

Patrick  34:13  Anyway, Bob Millet shared his testimony and that’s what’s in this book. It’s a remarkable testimony that he shared, and all of the professors have been just really positive in sharing their testimony of Christ. And we come to the symposium, we don’t talk about the differences in our churches. We’ve just talked about the power of the book. But we got added insight when they came to our congregation shared their personal witness of Christ–some very interesting stories of struggles and answered prayer and experiences they’ve had that’s really equipped them to be, really, men of God. It’s been wonderful.

 

GT  34:54  Great, it does seem like the LDS Church has been more open to these ecumenical councils and conferences. And I think you’re probably a big part of that. Is that true? Would you take credit for that?

 

Patrick  35:14  I don’t want to take credit for anything, I just think a door opened, we walked through it. And they’ve been very agreeable to work with us. In fact, our trip out here on this visit, one of the things we want to do is meet some of the new professors that are on this Interfaith Committee, meet the new dean of the religion department, and continue to build this kind of rapport so we can go forward. The pandemic slowed everything down.

 

GT  35:38  Right.

 

Patrick  35:38  We haven’t had a symposium in almost three years.

 

GT  35:41  Okay.

 

Patrick  35:42  So we’d like to regenerate that.

 

GT  35:45  Well, and you’re here for the one up in Logan at Utah State. Is that right?

 

Patrick  35:48  Correct.

 

GT  35:48  Yeah, that’s coming up this weekend [Oct 6-8, 2022.]

 

Patrick  35:50  Yeah, BOMSA, The Book of Mormon Study Association.

 

GT  35:52  Yeah. And so, it sounds like it’s been reciprocated. You have some in Independence, we have some here in Logan and stuff like that.

 

Patrick  36:00  Right.

 

 

 

The Polygamy Breach

Interview

GT  36:01  So I think that’s great. One thing I will say, and this does point to the divisions a little bit, which I’m not trying to do. But, it does seem like the LDS Church, especially with the Community of Christ and Restoration branches is pretty open to these kinds of interfaith councils. I remember speaking with Benjamin Shaffer. He’s a part one of these polygamist groups. It does seem like the polygamist groups, especially, still get excluded. And I know there’s a big issue, theologically, with that. But can you speak to that? Are you open to what we would call fundamentalist Mormons joining these kinds of things as long as they’re talking about the Book of Mormon?

 

Patrick  36:52  That’s an interesting question. And of course, that’s a significant issue with most of Mormonism, except Utah Mormonism has accepted it as part of their history. The Reorganization not only doesn’t believe in polygamy, they don’t believe Joseph authored it. So, it’s on the horns of those dilemmas that we’ve had this opposition all these years. I’m open to having dialogue with anyone. But you don’t want to cut your nose off to spite your face. And that’s a step that’s pretty hard for most people to accept, not someone who says [that] we believed in polygamy in the past, but to say that we practice polygamy today. It’s a little bit difficult. But I’d be willing to talk to anybody, whether they’re a polygamist or not. But that’s a big step to take. And you realize that you could scuttle something that you’re trying to do, if you get so wide that people feel that that’s too far a reach for us. It’s a pretty far reach for people to open their church up and let a Mormon come and speak behind their pulpit. So, that’s just how, pragmatically, how it works, Rick.

 

GT  38:06  Okay, so it is still pretty hard to accept the polygamous groups in there, just because of polygamy is such a controversial topic?

 

Patrick  38:17  Yeah, I think it’s, I think, for most Christians, and for most Latter Day Saints, if we exclude the Utah church for a moment, I think all of them would have a problem with the idea of a practicing polygamist, of having compatibility. What we’ve tried to do in our gatherings together, we’ve tried to come together on what we agree on, what our commonality is, and that’s the Book of Mormon. And, of course, the Book of Mormon is much stronger than the Bible is. It says David and Solomon had many wives and concubines, which thing was an abomination. Now, the Utah Church has interpreted that, “Except I command you,” and so forth. But the rest of the Restoration doesn’t view that chapter that way. Anyway, the Book of Mormon does condemn polygamy, at least from our vantage point. So that’s a wide stretch to include a polygamist in our fellowship like that. They’d certainly be welcome to come, and I’d be willing to talk to anybody. But I think on a larger platform, to invite people to come, I think that’s a big stretch. I mean, that’s just my opinion.

 

GT  39:26  Well, it’s funny because, I don’t know how familiar you are with polygamist groups. I know Lindsay Hansen Park. She has a podcast called Year of Polygamy. She’s really been instrumental, recently. I think within the last couple of years, Utah has decriminalized polygamy. She was part of that legislative effort to do that. She says part of the problem is when we exclude people, it allows people like one Warren Jeffs to thrive. Because they’ve been excluded, they can’t get any help from the LDS Church, which obviously here in Utah is a big deal. And it’s [the exclusion has] allowed a lot of abuses to happen. Warren has been marrying underage women and all sorts of things. And she says, “It’s because of this exclusion, that it allows a lot of criminals [to thrive.]” Warren Jeffs is in a Texas jail, and should be for the rest of his life, as far as I’m concerned because of the abuses that have been brought to light. So, she thinks it’s better to allow them to be open, and she’s really tried to make a lot of friendships with a lot of fundamentalists to stop these abuses. I mean, I understand the theological [issues.] I mean, I have my own issues with polygamy, anyway. You and I have talked a little bit about that. I even have a problem with Abraham and David. For heaven’s sake, the Bible’s full of polygamy. So, I can see both sides. I can understand the polygamist argument that it’s a biblical [practice.] But by excluding them, doesn’t it allow some of these abuses to happen?

 

Patrick  41:36  Well, I don’t know. I haven’t really thought a lot about that in light of how you’ve just projected this. But look. Anybody that’s a believer in the Restoration, the Book of Mormon, I think that they’re valuable. I think their testimony should be heard. Now, there’s ways in which we can’t go.

 

 

 

Troubling LDS & RLDS Groups

 

Patrick  41:57  If a group of people wanted to have dialogue with us and wanted to be a part of this and let that separate–we ran into a group of people that were called the Snufferites.

 

GT  42:08  Yes.

 

Patrick  42:09  And they’re kind of a recent separation from the LDS Church. And, for us, that’s not much of an issue. But for active Mormons today, that’s a little raw, because those are their people, right away. So, it’s just a matter where you are in proximity to the people that have separated from you or are different from you. I think as time goes by the Snufferites aren’t going to be viewed quite the same way as they are today, for instance. And I say Snufferites, I just mean that, that’s an individual that they think a lot of. I don’t know, just how they view him, necessarily, but maybe they…

 

GT  42:49  Well, I interviewed Denver Snuffer on my podcast, and he did seem like people were trying to root out his followers and kick them out of the LDS Church. And it’s funny because he’s like, “I say, you can still be LDS. There’s no problem.” Sometimes refer to that as being a dual citizen. (Chuckling)

 

Patrick  43:11  I did meet his wife and she said [that] they still attend their local LDS ward.

 

GT  43:15  Oh, I didn’t realize that. Oh, interesting. I don’t know if you follow the Chad Daybell/ Lori Vallow thing up in Idaho. Are you familiar with that?

 

Patrick  43:28  I’m not familiar with that.

 

GT  43:29  They’re a recent breakaway group. Chad and Lori, their previous spouses died mysteriously, probably murdered by them. They married, killed Lori’s children, buried them on the property. They’re kind of the prepper movement. Last days are coming anytime now. And up in Idaho, they had a pretty big following. So anytime you have these groups like Denver Snuffer, Chad Daybell, Lori Vallow, I think the LDS Church is going to be concerned about [them,] especially if they’re influential in bringing people away. But I think you’re right, as time goes on, I mean, some of those preppers you got to worry about. Because they’re always about last days and got to have my guns and we’re going to fight for the Lord and this kind of a thing. I mean, even with the RLDS Church, you’re probably familiar with Jeff Lundgren.

 

Patrick  44:29  Sure.

 

GT  44:33  I mean, that’s probably a really good analogy with Chad and Lori, these kind of apocalyptic sects. And so, I think any church, the RLDS Church, for sure was worried about Jeff Lundgren and those kinds of things. But hopefully, most people aren’t into murdering their neighbors.

 

Patrick  44:49  Everybody has a degree to which they can go and you go too far with some of these situations. So, I think it’s just a matter are trying to find common ground with fellow believers on things that we agree on, that they’re moral. They’re doctrinal. They’re virtuous. And yet, we have some administrative differences. And we want to try to ford that stream and do that not talking about why we’re so different, but what we have in common, with the hopes that maybe we can address those issues as we go forward. But, if the issues are so big, then you really can’t address anything. So, you work in your neighborhood, and then you work in your city, and then you work in your state, and then you work in the country. I think it’s the same way in the Restoration. We’ve got to work where we have some influence to accomplish what it is we hope to achieve.

 

 

 

 

Looking at Troubling Scriptures

Interview

GT  45:45  Well, I would like to ask you. I know Elder Renlund this weekend in General Conference justified the story of Nephi and Laban, where Nephi slew Laban. I know in Elder Renlund’s case, he’s like, “Well, that was a special case. Nephi was a prophet and was justified.” But there have been other people, Chad Daybell, or Vallow, Jeff Lundgren, that have used that story in their own lives to justify killing people. Do you have an opinion on that story of Laban? Is it problematic? Nephi said to liken all scriptures unto themselves, and it looks like Jeff and Lori did.

 

Patrick  46:29  Okay, that’s a fair question. Of course, Nephi says he was commanded to slay Laban.

 

Patrick  46:34  He’d been delivered into his hands. You go back to the day of        , who was the high priest, a literal descendant of Aaron, and firstborn all the way up until the time of Christ. And he prophesied. We wouldn’t think he was a good guy, because he resisted the disciples and so forth. But he said, “It’s better that one man die than a whole nation perish unbelief.”[1] And that was a true prophecy regarding Christ. I think in the case of Lehi and his colony, the Lord preserved a remnant of Jacob through this process. And it is extreme, I suppose. But it fell within the parameters of the scriptural idea that if you were to commit manslaughter, and you fled to a wilderness or another place within the Levitical law, that there was justification. Of course, Nephi fled into the wilderness. And they did retrieve the plates, and they were able to preserve their nation. So, I’m not sure that Jeffrey Lundgren preserved anything. I think that was an aberrant expression of that. [Jeffrey] used it just to try to justify it after the fact. And you look at Nephi’s whole life and you see a person a virtue, and you see a person that is faithful. We don’t find that continuity in the people that you’ve elicited to kind of draw that comparison.

 

GT  46:52  So you’re saying you think that the Nephi story was justified?

 

Patrick  48:09  Yeah.

 

GT  48:09  But we wouldn’t justify that today? That’s not a scripture that we should liken unto ourselves?

 

Patrick  48:15  Yeah, I think we can liken it unto ourselves. And like I said, I drew the bigger picture of what Caiaphas said about Christ. Jesus came for one reason. He came to die. In the midst of that, He performed miracles, healed the sick, called men in ministry, established the church. But none of that would have mattered, had he not died. And so, the prophecy of Caiaphas comes into full view here for us. That was the purpose. And so, just like I think what Jesus told Judas, “What thou doest, do quickly.” I think God foresaw what would happen and allowed it to happen. And I think he allowed that to happen with Nephi.

 

GT  48:59  Interesting.

 

Patrick  49:02  It begs the question, too, if that becomes problematic for saints, then maybe the whole testimony of the book isn’t valuable, or isn’t true. Do you know I mean? Whether we understand everything or not, if we throw out a story, because we think that we can’t justify that, then then maybe the book isn’t what it claims to be. So that’s the horns of that dilemma. You either believe [or not.] I met a man recently. He said, “I can accept about 85% of the Book of Mormon.”  He said, “I have a hard time getting my hands around the enormity of the revelation.”

 

Patrick  49:40  I said, “Well, it doesn’t work that way. You’re never 85% pregnant. You’re either pregnant or you’re not. Either the book is what it claims to be or it’s not.” And so, whether we understand everything in the book, Rick, if we have a witness that the book is true and accept it as the word of God, then it’s not so much that the stories are true. It’s that we need to continue to find reasons to seek for understanding how that actually manifests itself, how we live that, how we understand that, and how we accept that. But I think when we take an exception and try to overlay it and make it the law or make it the rule with all of us. I think that’s probably a mistake.

 

GT  50:24  Well, I mean, the Bible is full of stuff that I have real problems with. Let’s talk David and polygamy and Solomon and polygamy. It even justifies slavery, especially in the Old Testament. So, wouldn’t you view, especially David and Solomon and even Israel, with his four wives and their dysfunctional 12 children, (Chuckling) let’s go there. Because I know you’re not you’re not a fan of polygamy, right?

 

Patrick  51:03  Correct.

 

GT  51:04  So was Jacob justified to have four wives?

 

Patrick  51:10  Well, God gave them to him. You know, it says, in the Book of Acts..

 

GT  51:15  Isn’t that the easiest thing, though? If I say, “Well, God told me to rob a bank,” or “God told me to kill my children,” or God told me, you know, I’m Jeff Lundgren. He killed his family. Isn’t that kind of a [get out of jail free card]? I mean, who can argue with that? Right?

 

Patrick  51:30  Right. And that’s a fair question, just looking from the outside. But the Scripture says that David was a man after my own heart. But David also was cast into the prison house. And so, there’s a consequence. He repented in all cases, except the case of Uriah where he sent him to the frontlines. He was killed, so he [David] could have Bathsheba. So, there’s a consequence for what David’s actions were. Solomon was the wisest man in the world, but he ended up with 700 wives and concubines. But I believe that the luster came off on these individuals.

British Israelism

Interview

Patrick  52:08  Now, we had a promise in the Old Testament, the Davidic Covenant, there would not fail a man to sit upon the throne, until Shiloh comes, and then him shall the gathering be. So that’s a covenant made with David and his seed that’s not conditional. It wasn’t based on righteousness. It was a Davidic Covenant that would go from father to son, until Christ would come to reign. The Queen of England today was a literal descendant of the house of Judah. And she presided over Israel in the isles of the sea. And whatever you think of Queen Elizabeth, or her ancestors has nothing to do with whether the promise was true.

 

Patrick  52:48  The Bible speaks to the election of race, and the election of grace. We think that the house of Israel has been blessed. Your white Anglo-Saxon Protestants have–Israel went north and west and populated the isles of the sea. When they came to England, the French gave them the name Angleterre. The Book of Romans says that they would lose their identity and in Isaac would they be called. So, they were Isaac’s sons or Saxons, at the end of the earth, Angleterre. So, they were Anglo-Saxons. So, God has blessed that race of people. But that’s a physical blessing. It has nothing to do with their salvation. We’re all saved by grace, and we’re not saved by our race. But there are certain people that have had privilege. And so, they’ve really been called to be a servant race, and not to dominate. And so, we see this played out in history. We look at things in an isolated view. But if you look at the whole span of history, the children of Israel went west and north and populated the isles of the sea. And some of the greatest things that have happened in the world have come because of descendants of the house of Israel. I’ve been privileged to go to the African continent, and the British did a lot of good in Africa. Now, they had a lot of colonialism that wasn’t so good. But they brought industry. They brought education. They brought religion. And when Rhodesia changed its name and they kicked the British out Zimbabwe, it’s really struggling. And so, for all the bad that the British did with their imperialism, they did a lot of good. And I think the children of Israel have been a blessing around the world. I think the United States is a blessed country. I think we have a constitution and a form of government that has been a blessing all around the world but has nothing to do with our spiritual salvation. That’s a physical blessing. And so, we have to look at the big picture, the promise made to the house of Israel, “in thee and they seed.” David and Solomon and Rehoboam, all of that going down, there were a lot of problems, a lot of family problems.

 

GT  55:04  So let me make sure I’m understanding that. Because I’ve heard this referred to as British Israelism or something. You’re saying that the 12 tribes inhabited the British Isles?

 

Patrick  55:17  I’m saying that when they went into Assyrian captivity in about 721 BC, they never returned. They didn’t go back to the land of Ephraim. Now, the Jews were in captivity and went back. But Israel was dispersed among all nations. Nany of them went through Northwestern Europe and populated the isles of the sea. And it says that they would come of them a nation and a company of nations. Well, when Great Britain became Great Britain, they used the Union Jack, which was Scotland and Ireland, and they became a company of nations. And the time came when the sun wouldn’t set on the British Empire, it went around the globe.  And, of course, that kingdom has diminished today. But there was a time when they were the mightiest nation in the world. And many of our ancestors came from Great Britain and came to the Americas. So, I think history has validated the fact that those prophecies were true, that God used a group of people to propagate things that he thought were necessary: creating an America, enriching the soil for the sowing of the coming forth of the church in the latter days, creating a Constitutional Republic where the church could be birthed. I think that’s a remarkable event in history. And so, maybe that answers your question, I don’t know.

 

 

Patriarchal Blessings

Interview

GT  56:47  Wow, I didn’t expect that. That’s really interesting. So, I guess that brings up another question. I know in the LDS Church, and I believe the RLDS Church and I’m curious about the Joint Conference of Restoration Branches, we, LDS and RLDS have patriarchs that pronounce lineage of members of the church. Do you guys have patriarchs in the Joint Conference?

 

Patrick  57:15  We do.

 

GT  57:16  Okay. And so, do they pronounce lineage of Israel?

 

Patrick  57:20  You know, I’m sure some of them do. I’ve not read any of the blessings they’ve given. But that was a part of the Reorganization. And these patriarchs, some are in our movement that were part of the Reorganization, and some have been called since. But I think that’s certainly within the purview of their calling, to point out the lineage of those that that are so blessed.

 

GT  57:45  Okay, so you still practice patriarchal blessings. And so, is it pretty typical for them to say, “Patrick McKay, you’re of the house of Ephraim or Mannaseh,” or whoever?

 

Patrick  57:58  Well, I can tell you in my blessing that was identified.

 

GT  58:01  Okay.

 

Patrick  58:01  So I haven’t read other people’s blessings.

 

GT  58:04  Okay. But would it be pretty typical, would you say?

 

Patrick  58:07  I think it’s very probable that that’s identified in most blessings.

 

GT  58:11  Okay.

 

 

 

 

Structure of JCRB/Common Baptisms & Priesthood

Interview

GT  58:16  Can you tell us a little bit more about the structure of the JCRB, if I can just use that abbreviation? (Chuckling)

 

Patrick  58:21  Okay.

 

GT  58:22  Are you, like, the head apostle or president the Quorum of the Twelve, or whatever?

 

Patrick  58:27  Neither, neither.

 

GT  58:28  Okay.

 

Patrick  58:30  Our structure is we’re a group of branches that met and continue to worship, and there’s been kind of unfolding revelation regarding as the church has grown and as ministry has been necessary. So, the apostles are the leading missionary quorum of the church and there are Seventies under them. We have high priests, and we have elders, priests, teachers, and deacons, just like the LDS Church does. And we have a conference. Each year at our conference, we select someone to preside over–we’ve had different individuals preside. They’re not the president of the church. They’re president of the conference, just during the conference week. So, we’re not a full organization. We’re not a Reorganization of the church. But just like men continue to be called to the office of deacon, teacher, priest and elder in our fractured Restoration branch setting, in our corporate setting, we’ve been able to call men to what you would call general church responsibilities, higher offices, seventies, apostles, patriarchs, etc. So, that’s all we’re doing. We consider ourselves not a new church. We’re just part of the church and continuity. We’re not more of the church than those who are not part of the joint conference, but we consider ourselves a part of the church.

 

GT  59:57  Okay, so is every congregation an independent unit, then, pretty much? They call their own pastors and leaders and that sort of a thing? Do you have like a stake president, or what we would call a stake president?

 

Patrick  1:00:12  We do not. We believe in that kind of structure. But in our fractured state, we have independent branches, and each branch selects their own presiding elder or priest if it’s small and they don’t have an elder, for instance. But it’s by the voice of the people. Some of the branches had come together. And we have one group in the Restoration called the Conference of Elders, and a group of elders meet. And they don’t really have any say in the branches, except they meet, and they hold conferences. They have a magazine and they publish what they think are good intentions for the saints, things they’d like to see them do.