This is a re-broadcast from my very first podcast from January of 2022.  I’m excited to interview Margaret Young. She’s a professor of English and Literature at BYU and has written eight books, three of which are on black Mormon pioneers, so she’s kind of an expert on the topic.  She has also produced a play, “I Am Jane” about the life of Jane Manning James.

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GT  01:11  Welcome. This is my first Gospel Tangents podcast. I’ve got Margaret Young here today, Margaret is wonderful. I know you teach English, but I call you a historian, especially with black history.

Margaret  01:26  The last thing I wrote for the Church History Department, their series, Women of Faith, I told them that I had a particular document in it’s original. And they said, “So, you have the holograph?”

“No, it’s the original.”

And they said, “Well, that’s what we call it.”

And I said, “Okay. You’ve just found me out. I’m actually not a historian.” I don’t know the terms. But I have been, since 1998, deeply involved in history of blacks in the West.

GT  01:55  That’s wonderful. So, with February coming up, February is Black History Month. I thought it would be wonderful to talk to you a little bit about Mormon black pioneers. The one thing that, I think, gets a lot of short shrift is Jane Manning James. One of my big interests has always been the priesthood ban. We talk about the men and how it affected the men. But I think Jane Manning James, I know she wrote a letter, which we will talk about.

Margaret  02:27  She wrote multiple letters asking for temple blessings to every church leader who she knew.

GT  02:32  And was denied. So, we’ll talk a little bit more about that as we go here. But, I think, that really one of the big blind spots in Black history is the women. What happened to women? So, that’s what I’d like to talk to you a little bit about today.

Margaret  02:51  We can do Jane and she’s not the only one. There are other women. Jane is predominant, in many ways, because she remained in Salt Lake City. She remained LDS. But there are black women who came on the Pioneer trek, who had significance in United States history, not in Utah.

GT  03:12  Yes. There’s Biddy…

Margaret  03:13  Biddy Smith Mason.

GT  03:15  We will save another episode for her. I know she’s very interesting.

Margaret  03:18  Right. So, we can just focus on Jane now.

GT  03:21  Yes. Anyway, I just wanted to give a brief introduction of Margaret. I know Margaret teaches at BYU in creative writing, as I recall?

Margaret  03:28  That’s generally what I teach. I teach literature too.

GT  03:30  Okay. And you’ve made films and are currently making a film.

Margaret  03:36  I’ve made documentaries. I’m making a feature film right now, which is a totally different ballgame. I’ve just delayed it a little bit, because it’s set in the Congo and major things are happening in the Congo right now. And I need to be sure that we’re telling the right story. And that we present it at the right time.

GT  03:54  So, I’d love to meet with you again. And we’ll talk more about your project.

Margaret  03:59  I’d love to do that.

GT  04:02  I know, actually, I got on Amazon, too, because I knew that you had written at least three books on black Mormon pioneers and I was surprised when I discovered you’re an author of eight books, as I recall, at least according to Amazon.

Margaret  04:14  Yeah. Six novels, two short story collections.

GT  04:17  Okay. So, I would call that prolific, but I’ve never written book. You’re a prolific writer. So, anything else I should add for your introduction? Is there anything you’d like other people to know?

Margaret  04:32  Well, I’m proud of my four children. I just got a new granddaughter on September 15. I’ve got three. I already had three, but then I get to babysit my new little granddaughter and that’s actually a big part of my life. That is one of the great joys.

GT  04:48  I hear grandchildren a lot more fun than children.

Margaret  04:52  In some ways. This one is sure a joy.

GT  04:56  All right. So, let’s jump in. How did you first learn and get interested in Jane Manning James?

Margaret  05:03  Well, this is going to be one of those religious stories. I’m happy to tell it. I hope that the audience comprises people of faith, regardless of what faith they have. In 1998, I had published several books. I had won some awards, and my goal had been, “I want to get published.” That happened, and I realized, “This is not that big of a deal. I want my writing to make a difference.” So, I was in the temple, and I just presented that to God, and said, “I want to do something that matters. Lead me somewhere where the story will matter.” I didn’t tell my husband about that. But he gave me a blessing at the start of the year, and said, “You are going to be given an assignment that will use your talents.”

Margaret  06:03  So, I started looking around for what I should write about, and I landed on the name Jane Manning James. I had heard nothing about her. I started doing a little research, I really had only done fiction at that time. So, I was starting to fictionalize things, and I produced 100 pages, that would be the beginning of a book on Jane Manning, James. I was starting to tell pioneer stories in Relief Society. Then, one Sunday, a woman who had had a stroke and was in a wheelchair and not able to speak, was wheeled into the Relief Society room. [She was a] black woman, and I realized, “She’s here for me.” It turned out she wasn’t even in our ward boundaries.  She just said she wanted to go to this ward. There was no reason why she would have chosen it.

Margaret  06:53  Well, we, in our family, we do know how to communicate with people who are not able to communicate. My husband’s sister died of M.S. So, I knew how to do that. I knew that music was a way to do it. So, Susie Thomas and I became dear, dear friends. Well, I guess I was asked, because I had started speaking about black Mormon pioneers. I don’t think I had published very much on that subject at that point. I certainly had the 100 pages. I was invited to participate in a Sunstone Symposium with Gene England, who is, of course, the ideal person to be on a panel with talking about 1998. So [that’s] 20 years after the lifting of the priesthood restriction. “Where are we?” And I had heard on a cassette tape, something recorded from KUER radio, an interview with Darius Gray. I had played it for Relief Society, and it was still in my purse. So, I was there with Gene and knew some of what I would say.

A black man walked in and came up to Gene, shook Gene’s hand and said, “Hello.” I wish I could do Darius’s voice. “Hello. I’m Darius Gray.”

I immediately thought, “I’ve got his voice in my purse.”

Then, he came over to me and said, “I’m Darius Gray.”

Margaret  08:15  I said, “I’ve got you in my purse,” and I pulled out the cassette. He nodded in a confused way. Anyway, he had not planned on coming. Somebody had given him tickets. Then he saw that two white people were going to talk about blacks in the LDS Church. So, he came as a spy, pretty certain that that we would mess up and that he would be there to correct us. It was, really, one of the sweetest moments of my life, when afterwards he gave me a hug, just a big hug. He had tears in his eyes.

Margaret  08:49  He said, “I’m so grateful that you get it.” Then he said, “Let’s write a book.” There was a little more, more with Suzy. She received her endowment. I was able to be with her and miraculous things happened. So, all of this started in an absolutely miraculous way. I gave Darius my 100 pages, and he said, “I can help you with this. This is the language of my childhood.” So, my job was to get the chronology, everything that had happened, get it written up, and then we would read it aloud. I would actually have Darius read it and because my father was a linguist, I know how to listen for how people say things, and he would just naturally change what I had written to something that sounded like the language of his childhood.

GT  09:44  More authentic.

Margaret  09:44  Yeah, yeah. I was the was the one who took care of the physical details of the book, and he was the soul. There was one time when I called him and said, “Okay, this is what’s going to happen. Jane is going to be going to Salt Lake City. Her mother is going to give her a blessing and a prayer. Could you just pray for me?” And he did it. He did this beautiful prayer that made him cry. We just put that in the book. I knew, as soon as Darius came in, that he would be a part of the book. I prepared the way for that in the first book. I had his great-great-grandfather, Louis Gray, as a slave, and he happened to live in Marshall, Missouri. So, he was very close to Independence, Missouri. So, I put him in there, knowing that Darius would be there.

Margaret  10:33  Now, I didn’t tell Darius that until we were getting ready to start the first book. I said, “Oh, by the way, you’re going to be in this one.”

And he said, “No, I’m not.”

Margaret  10:43  I said, “Actually, I prepared that from the first book.” I don’t remember how long it took to persuade him. I don’t remember if we fought about it. We fought about a few things. But actually, if you look at the Deseret Book versions of the trilogy, the third book, which is called. “The Last Mile of the Way,” it has a picture of Darius’ family on the cover. He’s the baby in that picture.

GT  11:09  You need to show that.

Margaret  11:10  Okay. So, now, I revised, I caught some, what I considered egregious errors in what we had done in the first book, because I tried to be absolutely true to the history. When I found that I had made mistakes, I insisted on rewriting them. So, I prefer that people read the books published by Zarahemla Press.  The way that you can identify, this is a picture that Deseret Book chose to represent Jane James, but it’s not Jane. And because of many things that happened, including our becoming–how can I phrase our relationship with Louis Duffy? We became great friends with Louis Duffy, who happened to hear–missionaries were in his area. And he said, “Hey, my great, great-grandparents were Mormon pioneers.”

Margaret  12:01  When he would say that to people generally, they’d say, “Ehh, I think you’re thinking of the wrong religion.” But one of these missionaries had seen the play I had written called, “I am Jane.” They started telling him, they said, “Have you ever heard of this play?” They started telling him the plot and he said,

“That’s my great, great grandmother.” Then, he got online. He found our books, ordered them express mail. We had followed his direct line, his mother is in an end note, in our book. So, he wrote to Margaret Young and Darius Gray, care of Genesis, in Salt Lake City, Utah. Somehow, it got to us. At the time we got the letter, Darius was not the president, anymore, of the Genesis group. But the letter got to us. And we became dear, dear friends. We remain dear friends and Louis continues to give me things and I continue to give him things dealing with black past.  When I uncover something, he’s one of the first people I go to.

Interview

GT  13:01  Well, that’s cool. All right. So, you’re really, in my mind, you’re the biggest expert on Jane James that I know. I understand you wrote a screenplay about her. Could you kind of talk a little bit about that?

Margaret  13:17  Well, the truth of that one, was that–you’re going to have to decide whether you want to use this part, okay.

Margaret  13:27  Deseret Book had planned a really big advertising campaign and had put up $20,000 to film these stories that would be played sometime during conference. And all of the sudden, it was pulled. And we had all of the footage. But it was not going to air. We were never given a solid reason. Our sense was that people were uncomfortable with the fact that we were just, by the nature of what we were writing about, bringing up that very difficult issue of the priesthood restriction. So, that was pulled. I was given rights to the footage. I worked with Scott Freebairn, who had filmed everything, and we cobbled everything together to make a little documentary. But that came as a result of something that didn’t happen.

GT  14:20  Very interesting. I know this can be touchy. One of the things that I’ve discovered, personally, is it seems like it’s a more touchy subject for white people than it is for black people. Black people are very happy to talk about this.

Margaret  14:33  Well, a lot of black people don’t find out about it until they’re on missions. That was the case with Darron Smith, who no longer participates in LDS type things, which is sad, because we could certainly use his voice. Some of the African missionaries, who I know, happened to be in an apartment where Doctrines of Salvation, the book by Joseph Fielding Smith wrote. They read his ideas, which were all speculations and not true. One of the African missionaries was deeply upset to find that, according to Joseph Fielding Smith, he had been less valiant in the pre-existence and was cursed because of Cain. Elder Holland went to dedicate Cameroon and areas around there, and all of these missionaries were there to talk with Elder Holland. And they opened up for questions. This African missionary had his white companion ask Elder Holland, about this fence-sitter idea, the curse of Cain. I heard back, because I was writing to about 20 of these missionaries, I heard back from a bunch of them telling me how agitated Elder Holland became in saying, “That is not true. I wish nobody had said anything on that issue. But that is not true.”

Margaret  15:56  And, of course, at this point, we now have the official race essay, which disavows the whole idea of curse of Cain, valiancy in the pre-existence. And that is not a public affairs thing. That went through all of the hierarchy. They were aware of it. They knew it was going to be coming out. It was quite a process, a two-year process for the person who wrote that. It wasn’t me. I think generally, at this point, we really wouldn’t say he wrote it. We would say he was among the writers, because it went through committees, and some would say, “Well, we can’t have this, and we can’t have that.” So, ultimately, it’s a product of people meeting together and saying, “What do we say?” But the fact that it does not say, “We don’t know why the restriction existed,” is actually really big. We do know why, because of the culture of the day. Everybody believed in the curse of Cain back then. That came in the 1400s, with slavery. How do we justify taking humans into bondage, even if it’s tribal violence that brings them into a place where we can then take them into bondage? How do we justify that? Well, look, God said, that Canaan through Ham was cursed to toil and bear water for his brothers. And that came because Ham was a descendant of Cain, through his wife, [There was] a whole lot of far-reaching to justify the unjustifiable.

GT  17:37  Yeah, I really do think that whites are much more defensive about this. Maybe we have we have reason to be.

Margaret  17:47  Well, because I’m 61 years old, I grew up with a priesthood revelation. I was 23. I was living in Mexico, when it was lifted. And that was a day of great joy. But I was raised with appalling ideas. Thankfully, I had particularly my father, who is my example, in so many ways, I’m really continuing his work and everything I do. But my father would react strongly when anybody would say something ugly, against blacks. And it happened a lot. And when my seminary teacher said something really ugly, I went to my dad and my dad was upset. He was deeply upset. And that let me know that it was okay. That what I felt when my seminary teacher used the N-word or when he said, terribly, just awful things about blacks, that it was okay to know this is wrong. These are his ideas and they’re wrong. And then to go all the way up to 1978, have the restriction lifted, but that certainly wasn’t enough. It lifted the restriction, but it didn’t disavow anything. And then to go through the time when President Hinckley in 2006 I believe in the general priesthood session, said beautiful words. “How can any man holding the Melchizedek priesthood, arrogantly assume that he is eligible for that priesthood, whereas another who skin may be of a different color, but who lives a righteous life is ineligible?” And that was the great preparation for the race essay that came about in Gospel Topics. Philosophically, we are in a good place with what we believe, in what we don’t believe. Now we need to have our hearts go where the ideas have gone.

GT  19:41  Wonderful words. I’ll just add this. I was pretty young. I was probably about 10 years old when the announcement came out. I remember I lived in New Hampshire at the time, and I remember thinking “Blacks couldn’t hold the priesthood? I didn’t know that.”

Margaret  19:57  And that was for many people. I was born in ’55 but raised for a while in Indiana and in Chicago, Illinois. So, I did see racism. I saw it in my fourth-grade class, which I recognized what it was. Nobody told me, “Do you realize that when your teacher is calling these three black boys, the only black boys in your class, up in front of the class and berating them, that it’s wrong? She’s doing it because she doesn’t like the color of their skin.” There was my heart, my intuition said, “This is wrong.” So, I was introduced to racism because my father had taken us into many different cultures and we had people in our home who had various amounts of melanin in their skin. So, I was really prepared for everything that I did in black history. Darius and I don’t think we’re quite finished yet. We don’t know what is ahead. Much of my time, in the future, will be in Africa, itself. What a marvelous thing–I have a godson and goddaughter, Emmy and Stephanbui. I went to the Congo. I was in the Congo to help film. Danor Gerald was with me, and he’s a just a magnificent actor. He gave wonderful firesides. I was so grateful to have a black man with me, who could be there as an example of a Mormon from the United States. I was so grateful, and for the firesides, he gave, they were wonderful. But for us to be at the bride price ceremony, which is a Congolese custom, but then to be able to take Emmy and Stephy to Ghana. We were not able to go to South Africa, because they didn’t give visas to Congolese. I was in touch with Elder Holland through this, because he knew Emmy.  He had given Emmy a certificate when Emmy completed a construction program in Kinshasa.  So, I just sent a note to Elder Holland, “Pray for us.  We haven’t been able to get our visa to South Africa.”

Margaret  21:49  His secretary wrote me back later and said, “Did you ever get it?”

“No, we decided we’d go to Ghana.”  Ghana was a place of more miracles.  We did do some filming there at Elmina, the slave castle. But there were other things that happened. These newlyweds were going to live in patron housing, and we were behind, because we had to meet with film teams in South Africa. So, I just talked to Emmy and said, “How’s patron housing?”

He said, “Oh, it’s good.  We’re in separate bedrooms.”

And I said, “Aww,” because the entire Ivory Coast stake had come, and they were using the patron housing.  So, there were not rooms for couples.

GT  22:44  There was no room at the inn.

Margaret  22:45  But it turned out that one of the people from that Ivory Coast stake was a man I had heard of at length. I had wanted to meet him. I had talked to the person who told me about him and I’d said, “Boy, I’d like to meet him.”

She said, “Well, I’m afraid the Ivory Coast is a long way from the Congo.”  Then, later on, she said, “He’s going to be in Ghana. He’s going to be in Ghana to take the stake to the temple.

I said, “When?” She gave me the dates, and I said, “I’m going to meet him.” Indeed, I stayed in patron housing. I gave Emmy and Steffi my room and I got to spend, I got to go to a youth fireside, which was inspiring. I wish all American youth could see the youth of Africa in their reverence, their attention, and their willingness to sing songs. It was glorious.

Margaret  23:31  Then I got to have an hour-long discussion with this man I had heard so much about. There were miracles all along the way. I felt an angelic presence everywhere that I went. I stayed with me for several weeks. When I returned to my temple work, it was with me in a way I had not sensed it before. It was dangerously with me, I suppose, when I was visiting a friend in Seattle, and I had a rented car. I thought, “I can get to the airport. It says it’s empty, but they always put a little extra, right?” It shut down, and I was out of gas.

Margaret  24:09  I said, “Angels, I’m going to need some help now.” They had become so real to me in Africa. It was just, “Hey! I know you’re there. I will need some help now.” Indeed, it wasn’t an angel. It was somebody who looks out for people who are having trouble and gave me some gas, so I got there.

GT  24:27  That’s a fantastic story. Alright, so let’s talk a little bit more about Jane James. She grew up as Jane Manning. Is that right?

Margaret  24:37  Right.

GT  24:28  That was her maiden name.

Margaret  24:29  Jane Elizabeth Manning.

GT  24:30  So, can you talk about what are the first stories that you know. I understand that she is probably one of the best documented black pioneers.

Margaret  24:48  Right. Well, the stories, when they were first being told, tended to focus on her remarkable journey. She joined the church in Wilton, Connecticut, and her whole family had joined the church. Her siblings and, apparently, her mother and her stepfather also had joined the church. We think the stepfather probably took a train. But all of the other Manning’s went to Buffalo, New York with the intent of taking a ship to Nauvoo. They got all of their baggage on the ship, and then were told, “Oh, you can’t go unless you pay upfront.” Well, they didn’t have any money. Of course, this went back to their race. So, they left that boat and started walking.

Margaret  25:32  She says, “We walked a distance of over 800 miles. We walked until the soles of our shoes wore out, and you could see the whole print of blood on the ground. We knelt and prayed. We asked God, the Eternal Father to heal our feet, and our prayers were answered, and our feet were healed forthwith. We went on our way, singing, praising God for all he had done in preserving us and in healing our feet.” That’s the story that is generally known.

Margaret  26:00  The painful part comes later. In “I am Jane,” the play I wrote, the first part is just full of music and joy and lovely things. Then, there’s a there’s a turn. Joseph Smith is killed. The saints go to Salt Lake, but only Jane goes with her husband. She is married to in Nauvoo, Isaac James. Jane had been raped by a minister. This was in Wilton, Connecticut. So, in the first book, I kind of identify him. There’s pretty good evidence of who it probably was. So, she had a son, Sylvester, when she first came into Nauvoo. Sylvester was there with them on the trek. So, that part is pretty well known. But then we get to the fact that we have the priesthood restriction. Because of the wonderful research of people like Henry Wolfinger, we have access to her letters to church leaders asking for temple blessings. We know that Elijah Abel held the priesthood, was ordained from what we’ve seen in various accounts by Joseph Smith, himself. So, during Joseph Smith’s time, there was not a priesthood restriction. If you want to know more about that, just read the essay.

GT  27:17  Do you know what church she grew up in?

Margaret  27:22  Presbyterian.

GT  27:23  It was Presbyterian. Was she a free or slave?

Margaret  27:27  She was free. Connecticut had been emancipated. There was gradual emancipation in Connecticut. Her mother, whose slave name was Phyllis and whose free name was Eliza, was raised a slave, but because of gradual emancipation was also free by the time of the trek.

GT  27:43  Do you know approximately what year that Jane was born?

Margaret  27:46  [She was born in] 1822.

GT  27:48  So, she was born free.

Margaret  27:52  Right.

GT  27:53  And then, so she attended the Presbyterian Church for a time.

Margaret  27:58  And the Presbyterians–in fact, there’s a page where they talk about pushing her outside, because she keeps going to hear the Mormons and the pastor does not like that.

GT  28:08  Oh.

Margaret  28:09  So, that’s some of what I fictionalized as we went, but I wanted to talk about the significance of Elijah Abel in Jane’s life. He died on December 25, 1884. That’s Christmas Day 1884. That day, Jane apparently went to the home of President John Taylor, and she had wanted to have a conversation with him. That didn’t happen, which we know, because on December 27^th, probably working with somebody who transcribes–Jane could read but she couldn’t write, wrote a letter to President John Taylor that says, “Dear Brother, I called on your house last Thursday,” which was the date of Elijah April’s death, “to have conversation with you concerning my future salvation. I realize my race and color and cannot expect my endowment as others, who are white. Still, inasmuch as this is the fullness of time and through Abraham, all mankind may be blessed, is there no blessing for me?”

Eventually, this 1884 is a tumultuous year in everything that’s happening in Mormon history. Eventually, she was given a recommend to do baptisms for the dead and [she] does many, I think, mostly in Manti and Logan. The Salt Lake Temple wouldn’t be dedicated until 1893. But that’s what she’s given.

Margaret  29:29  Now, what I find people tend to focus on, a lot, is that she had been asked by Emma Smith if she would like to be adopted as a child to Emma and Joseph. Jane, in later years, writing her life history said, “I was so green I did not comprehend.” So, she turns it down. Now, when she’s seeking to go to the temple, she says, “They asked me to be adopted.” Well, unfortunately, there is a ceremony, in which Bathsheba Smith represents Jane as proxy and Jane is sealed to Joseph and Emma as an eternal servant. The thing about Jane is, it’s pretty clear to me that she didn’t buy that. She knew that that was not right. If you listen to the words of that letter, this is the fullness of times, in Abraham, all mankind may be blessed. She’s giving the reason that we now understand is exactly right.

Margaret  30:25  When it when it talked about no divisions in the house, that the gospel is to go to all nations, that’s what it means. There’s never a good reason to restrict, via one avenue or another, one population. So, Jane pays visits to Wilford Woodruff, frequently. He says, “Well, Jane James came again. She asked me for her endowment. Once again, I had to tell her that because of Cain…” Again, that idea that now the Church has repudiated, that she couldn’t receive her endowment. For me, that’s a part of the story. But I don’t like the fact that in some tellings, it’s the core of the story, because it certainly is not.

Margaret  31:13  Jane wrote her story that she wanted to be read at her funeral. She closed it with her testimony, which is, “My testimony of the gospel of Jesus Christ is as strong today, maybe, if possible, stronger than the day I was first baptized. I pay my tithes and offerings. I keep the Word of Wisdom. I go to bed early, and I arrise early. I try in my feeble, feeble way, to be an example for all.” That, to me, Jane’s faith, and the fact that when you go through her story, she doesn’t mention the proxy sealing. It’s just a really bad thing that happened. Bad things happen in families and churches. But it does not define her. It didn’t define her at all. In her day, I’m sure she was told, and she probably shrugged her shoulders and said, “Well, I think God wants more for me.” So, then we have Jane bearing her testimony. And every time she talks about a trial, she follows it up with the way God has blessed them, with the feet. “We praise God for healing our feet,” talking about how her children were so hungry, and she had no food for them. And she says, “But in all the Lord gave us grace to stand at all.” I want Jane’s story to be, certainly, an example of how far we still need to come. If there are people who regard blacks as less than, their hearts must change. But Jane is an example of one who persevered through trials that we can hardly imagine and did it through her relationship with God and praised God throughout.

GT  32:58  I just wanted to ask you about that. It’s always was fun to play what if. Do you think if Jane had accepted that offer by Emma back in what, the 1840s, whatever it was, that may have impacted the temple ban on blacks?

Margaret  33:18  I, personally, don’t. Because once we get to Brigham Young, things change. And even though Elijah Able had been washed and anointed in the Kirtland Temple, he wasn’t in Nauvoo, when the endowment was given. That’s what would have changed history. If Elijah Able, had been in Nauvoo–he was a great friend of Joseph Smith. If he had been in Nauvoo and had been endowed, I think that that would have had an impact, that the restriction would not have been put into place. Jane presented the fact, I mean, she talked about various avenues towards getting what she wanted. But that idea, that cultural idea of the curse of Cain was so strong, and the leadership had changed, that it just didn’t happen.

GT  34:04  Very interesting. Well, I’ve only asked you about 1/4 of what I wanted. I know you’ve got to run, and I want to keep these kind of short, anyway. Let me just ask. I’ll just finish with one last question. Do you kind of feel like you’re Jane’s biographer and protector?

Margaret  34:27  That would be deeply problematic. There’s a big concern with appropriation these days, where if a white woman says, “I am in charge of Jane and the way her story will be told,” it is deeply problematic. I am certainly among those who loves Jane and I have received miraculous avenues in getting to know her better. I’m so grateful that I have been able to pay tribute to her. We’ve, Darius and I, helped get a couple of monuments. We marked all of the graves of her children that had–she lost most of her children. Only two of them survived her. So, we marked their graves. We’ve been able to do a few really nice things to let people know who Jane was and know her remarkable history. I can’t claim to [have] any particular authority over Jane, because she was herself, and the research on her is available to anyone who wants to do it.

GT  35:31  All right. Well, thank you for your time. I really appreciate this. I know that I will love to call you again and meet some more and talk more about Jane and other people in church history. So, I hope you’ll be able to meet with us again.

Margaret  35:48  You bet. I’d love to do it.

GT  35:49  All right. Well, thank you, Margaret Young. I really appreciate your time here on Gospel Tangents.

Margaret  35:55  Okay, thanks. I’m going to dash.

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