The Act in Relation to Service legalized slavery in Utah in 1852. Dr. Sally Gordon tells more about how the statute affected both Black & Indian slavery in Utah. Check out our conversation….

https://youtu.be/puDhwkA7BUg

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GT  1:36:37 One last comment, and then I promise I’ll let you go.

Sally  1:36:40  Okay.

GT  1:36:40  Because I know it is getting late. We had a conversation yesterday a little bit about–I know Paul Reeve is coming out with a book on the 1852 legislature.

Sally  1:36:50  Yes.

GT  1:36:50  Was it Chris Rich?

Sally  1:36:51  Rich.

GT  1:36:52  Chris Rich had given a presentation a few years ago at Mormon History Association where he was trying to make a distinction between Indian slavery and Black slavery in Utah.

Sally  1:37:04  Yes.

GT  1:37:05  Can you talk a little bit about that controversy and where you stand?

Sally  1:37:07  Sure. Oh, boy, you’re getting me in trouble. There are many different kinds of slavery. Native slavery was widely practiced here in Utah, across the West, and had been practiced back east. I mean, really. It had been true slavery. The idea that slavery was just African, it was a much later idea. It really is true that slavery became a much more profitable enterprise than indentured servitude, for example. But the idea that it would be perpetual and inherited slavery was controversial in the colonies. So, I want us to understand that bound labor exists across a spectrum. When a native child was sold, and forcibly removed from their family, and held to labor, until age 18, or whatever it was–even when they were directed to be given shoes, and I don’t know, education of some rudimentary sort. When most of them died before they reached the age of 18, that’s a form of bound labor. That’s not freedom. Is it the same thing as chattel slavery, protected by King George III? No. It fits much more closely into the practice of native slavery.

Sally  1:38:59  There’s a very well-known book called, The Other Slavery by Andres Resendez,[1] who teaches at UC Davis, I think. He argues that about 5 million natives, if I have it right, were enslaved by Europeans, during the period of colonization, which is a long period. So, saying that there’s two kinds of slavery just says what we all know already. There’s lots of different slaveries. Many natives were held with African slaves for long periods. So, it’s not clear to me that people who bought native children didn’t also have black slaves. It seems like they may well have. I was talking to a scholar of slavery and said, “Well, imagine. Just imagine that someone calls this adoption and says that this is someone brought into the family and taught a faith, and that, yes, they’re required to work, but so is the whole family, and life isn’t easy for them. These are people who’ve been made orphans and are not allowed to even speak their own language.” I mean, it’s a rough, rough position for a kid. But the people who are doing the adopting, say, “Well, they were going to get killed otherwise.” If you study how the slave trade worked in Utah, and across the Southwest, the slave trade went up, when the Mormons arrived. When Europeans arrived, it went up.

Sally  1:41:01  So, it’s hard to say that this was just helping kids. Paiutes were really easy to kill. They were very peaceful people. The slave traders were vicious. It’s true that some Latter-day Saints sold kids, too. So, I want to be fair. I really do. I want to say, even with African slaves, the Latter-day Saints cared about family. That’s what they do. They cared about family. Yes, there’s some idea of adoption here. But I promise you back east, they were doing the same thing. It’s not like the Mormons made it up. Andrew Jackson adopted a little native boy, took him from his mother’s dead arms. Well, Andrew Jackson engineered the war that killed the woman. I think we need to know a lot more. We can’t just look at the situation in Utah, and say we understand the system, because all of this is about people moving, people on the move. People who had seen native slaves back east, people who had seen slaves in Illinois and copied the statute. In Utah, everybody knew that there were lots of slaves in Illinois, even though Illinois claimed to be a free state. So, I just want us to place, yet again, to think about the Latter-day Saints as part of the United States. They moved, too, as did many others. So, I think separating this out and thinking of it just as a Mormon issue is unfair to the people who were held and unfair to the Latter-day Saints.

GT  1:42:59  I think in that presentation that I remember a few years ago, Chris Rich tried to make a distinction between Indian slavery, and maybe I should use the terms he was trying to use. He said that Utah slavery was more like indentured servitude, with an idea towards gradual emancipation.

Sally  1:43:18  Yeah, and we know, that doesn’t work. And they knew then, because it didn’t work in Illinois. They copied the Illinois statute.

GT  1:43:27  The Act in Relation of Service is a copy of an Illinois statute?

Sally  1:43:31  Yeah.

GT  1:43:31  Oh, I didn’t realize that.

Sally  1:43:32  Well, it’s not perfect. But, yes, it’s the same kind of thing. You’re supposed to register your slaves. So, how many slaves were registered in Utah? (One.) So, there’s been great work done on Free State slavery over the past 20 years. I’m working on some in Pennsylvania. One of the things we have learned is that–for example, in Illinois, a person who held a human being as property, which is pretty disgusting, would show up at the court and say, “I’m registering my slave, and she’s agreed to an indentured contract with me for the next 30 years. I’m going to pay her $5 at the end.” Courts would approve it. I’m stereotyping, but there were lots of cases like that. There has been some really interesting work on whether indentured servitude really is–just having a contract is not being free. That’s what we need to remember, that if it quacks like slavery loudly enough, the fact that somebody ripped a piece of paper or someone else consented, doesn’t necessarily mean it’s fair or free.

GT  1:45:08  If I remember right, didn’t the Act in Relation to Service require Native Americans to be educated, but it did not have the same for blacks?

Sally  1:45:19  No.

GT  1:45:20  There’s one difference there.

Sally  1:45:21  Absolutely. So that’s what I’m saying. You have to be fair that the Saints saw this as kids. They saw this as kids, who were taken away from their families. So, they wanted to do something. They also worried about the families of enslaved people in that statute. You’re not allowed to split up the families. So, yes, I don’t want to exaggerate or be unfair. In fact, I was talking with Melissa Inouye yesterday, saying, “This needs really careful parsing. We want to be right about how we think about this.” And being right means placing it in context, not just looking at the Mormons, which, of course, is what a lot of Mormon people want to do, and I don’t blame them.

GT  1:46:20  It’s what I do.

Sally  1:46:22  Well, but you’re talking to me, and I’m enjoying it so much. You learn things from people, and it helps. It helps give you perspective. So, that’s what I–I haven’t decided, but I have real questions, and I’m working really hard. I want to learn more. But I think just saying, “Read the statute and do what it says,” as a lawyer, we know that’s not the way the world works. It’s different on the ground. It’s like sort of saying, just read the Bible and do what it says. I mean, people live their religion differently than the exact commandments, because life requires you to encounter situations that no one anticipates. So, just reading the statute isn’t enough.

GT  1:47:20  All right, was there anything I missed? Are there any projects you’re working on, or anything you want to share with my audience?

Sally  1:47:26  What would I say? I’m working hard on Biddy Mason. I hope that a co-author and I will have an article out in the next year or so. California was another free state full of slaves.  So, I just want you to [remember that.] And they had a much more–no slaves in California. That’s what their constitution said. But the Supreme Court of California said, “Well, just, when your owner brings you to California, that doesn’t mean you’re free. No, no, no. The legislature would have to free you.” And the legislature was pro-slavery, so it didn’t work. But I guess I would say, it’s a special pleasure to be here after the pandemic, to be able to see your face and see your lovely smile, and your interest in what you do. We’re here pretty late at night. We’ve both worked hard all day, and yet, we can share. We can think, with each other. You’ve asked a lot of hard questions, and I appreciate that. I hope you appreciate that my answers are partial, because I feel like I’m still learning. I’ve only been teaching…

GT  1:48:48  You’re one of the greatest constitutional scholars and you’re still learning.

Sally  1:48:51  I’ve only been teaching for 30 years, but I’m still [learning] every day. The ways you’ve put your questions has helped me think, so, I’m grateful. That’s why we do what we do. That’s why we talk to other people. We have been starved and I hope we can come out of this being grateful for having made it through and trying to learn and engage. I think Latter-day Saints are really good at that. I was so welcomed this weekend. I was so grateful to be here. I would come back to my hotel at night so excited, writing notes, thinking about getting together with you. Because, if we don’t help each other learn, if we sit behind Zoom screens, it’s agonizingly lonely. So, I’m thankful to you for doing what you do, and for making me welcome.

GT  1:49:57  Well, like I told you yesterday, you’re the whole reason I came to this conference.

Sally  1:50:02  I don’t believe that.

GT  1:50:03  I’ve only been doing this for six years and I wanted [to interview] you the entire time.

Sally  1:50:08  Well, I hope I come through okay. As I said, I hate looking in the mirror. I hate all that. I try not to listen to myself, except when a class has been recorded where I feel I didn’t do a good job and I try to listen to that and try to figure out where I tripped up. Because a bad class is still a very painful thing. When it doesn’t go the way you want, it’s just agony.

GT  1:50:35  Well, this has been a treat, not agony at all.

Sally  1:50:37  A treat for me.

GT  1:50:40  Alright, well, Sally Gordon, thank you so much.

Sally  1:50:43  Thank you, Rick.

GT  1:50:43  By the way, I should give your author’s name. You’re Sarah Barringer Gordon.

Sally  1:50:47  That’s me.

GT  1:50:48  The [Mormon] Question, but you go by Sally.

Sally  1:50:51  I do. I’m named after my grandmother, Sally Barringer, and I keep her name to show my love for her and how much I miss her.

GT  1:51:02  Well, thank you so much for being here on Gospel Tangents. This has been such a treat.

Sally  1:51:06  A treat for me, too.

[1] Can be purchased at https://amzn.to/3KyIayv

Copyright © 2023

Gospel Tangents

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Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission