Episode 84
Addressing Veterans, Pain, Mental Health, and Recovery

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Description

In this episode, Brandon and Clinton speak with two special guests, authors Dr. Kerry and Dr. Dustin Brockberg. Their book, “End Your Covert Mission: A Veterans Guide to Fighting Pain and Addiction,” stands as an honest and authentic Manuel for veterans and sheds light on a meaningful discussion surrounding veteran-related issues. Dustin Brockberg shares his experiences as a veteran and the nuances that impacted his adjustment back to civilian life. At the same time, Kerry Brockberg speaks on the psychological aspects met while creating this book. This impactful conversation takes the viewers on a run-through of the most impactful moments in the pages and the most effective steps to transitioning back into civilian life and coping with pain and mental health. To find the Brockberg’s information or to purchase their book, check out their website at https://www.drsbrockberg.com/

Talking Points

1. Introduction to the Brockberg’s
   
2. Addressing myths about going to therapy
   
3. The importance of talking
   
4. A change in identity
   
5. Veteran voices
   
6. “Earned” pain
   
7. Coping with pain
   
8. “ACE”
   

Quotes

“Pain is something that I think is helpful to unify us rather than feeling so distant when someone goes through addiction or recovery, mental health, chronic pain. There’s a very significant feeling of being distant within this community.”

– Dr. Kerry Brockberg, Ph.D.

Episode Transcripts

Episode 84 Transcripts

my name is Brandon Burns chief executive officer for Peaks recovery centers excited to bring what are we bringing today we’re bringing some authors we’re bringing some authors folks doctors grab your popcorn your soda as you do when Brandon Burns is the host because this is going to be good stuff we’re speaking to uh veterans active military members and the family systems here today really excited to bring this book forward before introducing our special guest today here on the finding Peaks episode I’ve got Clint Nicholson co-host LPC Lac Chief Operating Officer for Peaks all the clinical things all of them all the clinical things a touch of them and joined today by two incredible authors who’ve put together the book titled injure covert Mission a veteran’s guide to finding pain and addiction Clinton and I have had the special privilege already of reading it and all of you at home are going to read it shortly after this episode I know it because we’re bringing it to you so join today by Carrie and Dustin brockberg both phds Carrie brockberg is a licensed psychologist working in the field of Rehabilitation her current practice focuses on individuals with chronic pain brain injury and other chronic illnesses and disabilities she specializes in the development of tangible psychological approaches connecting the mind and body and better understanding overall functioning and quality of life all great words on the Scrabble board Dustin Brockport is a licensed psychologist working in the field of substance use and co-occurring disorders he served in the United States Army from 2004 to 2008 including a deployment to Iraq his clinical interests include veteran-related issues grief loss affect phobia and Trauma also great words on the Scrabble board thank you so much for being here you two welcome to the show thanks for having us yeah thanks so much totally so um so both Clinton and I certainly have had the opportunity to read through your text and uh when I started uh reading it uh I am I’m a civilian with very little military background in my life and it felt like um there was a particular tone in the way that the text was being written so you know off the bat here I would just love to know why you felt called to write this text for the viewers out there in the first place uh and and the tone that’s situated within that book um you know it it feels like at Peaks recovery centers there’s a straightforwardness to the text that doesn’t always feel like we have the privilege at Peaks to like talk to our you know patients in that way and so um just just want to know the why and certainly I want to understand the tone for those who might be on the civilian side of this not you know fully knowing why it’s being addressed in the way that it is so we’ll start there
absolutely well I can I can kind of just jump off on that so again thank you for having us so much um I think a big why to this book was uh really trying to fill a huge gap in the literature world around uh kind of connecting the worlds of veterans pain and mental health into one Fell Swoop um there’s tons of books out there that are really academically written a lot of APA citations all that kind of hoopla stuff which is all has a place in the world but there’s not really it wasn’t really a book out there that was directly written for people that are impacted by these issues in a really no-nonsense direct way and it really didn’t give a lot of good tools that they can literally read that page put it down and do it and so I think that was a big a big reason to the why um I also think that from my own personal experience of being a veteran uh one of the one of the hardest things is being able to actually connect or relate to something that’s being written about you and um I think a lot of folks in in recovery could probably identify with that mentality as well that there’s tons of theory and tons of things out there but there’s not so much ways a word’s going to talk right at you in the text which in a lot of ways our tone was doing just that of saying you need to stop it so you need to start this or things like that and so I think that was a big part of kind of creating some new literature that really hasn’t been done before I think too uh Brandon coming from also the civilian perspective and co-author here one thing that Dustin has shared with me from and I’ve actually observed from the veteran Community working with vets obviously having my own vet at home surprise surprise yes Dustin and I are married um but uh one thing that is just awesome about the veteran Community is the banter and the banter I think is something that just um you when you need another vet and you have that banter you bring in a little bit more straightforward direct no-nonsense as you pointed out there’s that connectivity just kind of immediately um and that was something that was super important in our book so not only just like directness but also you know you’re gonna find maybe a few curse words in the book too so it’s definitely a little bit you know it got away from our clinical side you know similarly um you know working within a more professional setting where you might not find us you know clinically talking in the same manner but it was kind of fun to bring that out in the book and I think it’s relatable um and makes it more of a page Turner if you if you ask me but absolutely yeah I get to be I kind of live in the middle of you guys I’m a military brat so I’ve had that uh there is a level of tone and directness that felt very familiar to a certain degree and also as a clinician though having this it was actually quite refreshing to just kind of I don’t know sometimes I feel like as clinicians we can really start we kind of fluff things up a little bit to try to make things land a little bit more easily for our population and our clients and this man that there was it just landed right away there was no fluff it was very very straight and to the point and it was very refreshing and also um I don’t know if there was something very empowering about that as well very and yeah so I’m curious again like that tone um what were some of the other maybe goals that you had having such a direct tone yeah thanks for saying all that Clinton that’s that’s awesome to hear that you you received it that way um you know I think when we were writing this book the biggest thing for us was we wanted to give folks hope um hope and empowerment feelings that they can take one message away or they can take 10 messages away they could try this today or they could try this in six months or five years um I think the feedback we’ve gotten from folks too is like you don’t have to necessarily start at the beginning of the book you could start at whatever chapter makes sense for you and where you’re at um so I think that you know that’s a part of where the tone comes from is you know we wanted to make this very approachable very accessible um which you know it really makes a difference for folks that are trying to take that first step especially in a book um so it’s it really that was our major goal I think as you’re writing and um hoping to reach our target audience so yeah and then just just to kind of piggyback off that too um I think a lot of a lot of veterans would probably connect to the idea that they want to use their time really in a really effective efficient way and so this book is built in just that mentality and so um similar to to what to what um Kerry said this idea that you can go to any part of the book and just go I think that’s a similar mentality that a lot of veterans have but I’d also argue that a lot of people that are going to pick up this book whether you’re a veteran or not is you want to be able to apply it you want to be able to do something with it and we want to respect that mentality that in today’s world you got to keep going right but a lot of people whether they’re being a veterans they’re in recovery um they’re working to get to get into recovery whatever it is that they’re done waiting for 1800 pages of a book to get to the final punch line versus every single chapter every single start of the chapter is a punch line right we’re trying to get at you right after that um and then kind of hold you to be able to kind of work within your system wherever you are in your life so I think it’s really trying to hook you at multiple ways yeah one of the one of the you know speaking still to the toward the tone of the book one of the things that it right when I got to this section I was like okay I’m tuned in I’m ready for this because it was like direct it felt like it was directed at me now but so I’m paraphrasing a little bit but it said something like okay say you have anxiety and you go to a counselor’s office I’ve got news for you right they’re not going to cure your anxiety that’s not their job right they’re they’re informing a toolkit here that you go and I think in parentheses after they say sorry to break it to you you know again that’s a very it’s ant it’s it’s certainly antithetical to fluff you know in that regard and what you might find in some clinical settings and from there I was just gripped moving forward and and for me that that word empowerment that you brought up is is what feels like you’re trying to inform as a tone there right that there that you come into this and we’ll get into the rucksacks and so forth but you come into this with a certain you know level of baggage and to get out of this moment it’s going to require your energy moving forward and that might be just getting into a therapist office in the first place uh it might now that you’re in a therapy office you know you’re you’re I think commonly what you know we find especially around mental health you know major depression you know past medication regiments and so forth don’t work there’s a defeatedness that can come out of that right and um without objectifying you know our sense about it right and empowering the individual it feels like we’re given a new capacity to move out of this phase that we’re in and so I just wanted to highlight that because that was the first point I was like I think there’s a tone here that’s essential in going through this and that they’re speaking directly to a military member differently maybe in the way that you know civilians would be approached I don’t know if you want to add more to that but that was a gripping sort of section of the book for me yeah yeah I would just add just to that point is you know there’s a level of honesty and almost authenticity that we’re trying to bring to this and you know as psychologists naturally be watching the therapist’s office we want to be able to help them to kind of work within your system kind of where you are but in the same breath we have to be real with you right if you go into the office under false pretenses and you know you assume that the first 10 minutes that your butt cheek hits that chair that you should be healed is not a realistic idea here very similar to a lot of people that assume if I have 10 symptoms of anxiety and medications can take away all ten no chance right that’s that’s not how that works and I think if folks can kind of continue to hear that new narrative it allows for an opportunity to be able to work within that new system versus if we just go into what we’re told to do or what culturally we’ve we’ve always done for example you have a headache you take a pill right that’s very that’s very regimented into your brain that’s how it works and we have to deconstruct that yeah and I think too one thing that um and we speak to this book yes you’re we’re talking to Veterans um but talking to I think veteran families or any individual that um knows a veteran or wants to learn more about veterans um the tone is very purposeful in that hey this might be an effective way to get in to talk to your veteran too um you know whether that’s a family member loved one a significant other partner um so you know it’s there’s sometimes there’s this um feeling of hesitancy I think within the recovery Community when you talk about addiction chronic pain put X in the line uh mental health it’s hard to talk about this stuff right and that’s a big theme in our book is talk I think one part we just like damn it just talk right so yeah say something yeah but but the thing is is like it’s hard it’s vulnerable it’s it’s scary and when the tone is very purposeful and that let’s not make this scary let’s make this understandable and natural and something that you know we’re all experiencing pain is an Universal experience how we deal with pain no one wants to feel that way um so it’s that’s also very much why we we came about it that way so yeah yeah I think the way that you guys utilized pain as sort of a a gateway to talk about everything else that was sort of opened the door and allowed um you know just being able to talk about pain in all of its different forms eventually started to there was this movement towards normalizing what people were experiencing but first normalizing that physical pain that we can all relate to and that we can uh and that we shy less away from but at the same time have that same need to like I want this gone like right now and uh really like Yeah you mentioned Dustin deconstructing those narratives and I think um that yeah I was I’m curious um obviously your your background carry is in pain management in pain but what was um what were some of the other reasons that you chose to use pain as sort of a vehicle to explore the rest of the mental health components
yeah I mean so I think you know Dustin and I we came together for this book and we tried to better understand you know how do people understand um themselves how do we go through different parts of our life um that we experience and you know I think pain is something that right away you think of physicality you know how something impacts you um quite physically whether that be chronic pain or acute pain um but when you think about kind of the layers about what we experience as humans the different things in our life the experiences that we have um that may be negative for us painful something being painful um is is very impressionable for us as we we talk about addiction as we talk about different social experiences or mental health experiences someone specifically of course veterans experience transitioning out of the military but um pain is something that I think is helpful to unify us a little bit more than rather than feeling so distant um when someone is going through addiction recovery mental health chronic pain and there’s a very significant feeling of being distant within this community I’m the only one experiencing this no one experiences is like I do um so you know this come together moment we Dustin and I really talked about how do we make people feel part of something how do we develop more of this community um and pain just seemed to be this more widespread understanding um I don’t know going haha back to psychology right there’s only a few feelings or experiences that are Universal but I think when you say pain people are like yeah that is that was painful and that was you know something that and so I think you see that throughout our book right we kind of diversify what pain is how that shows up in addiction how that shows up for veterans mental health through the biopsychosocial lens that we form up at the beginning of the book and kind of break down later so yeah absolutely yeah just to add to that just really briefly is the there’s also a cultural component to this concept of pain right so um how different races and ethnicity gender sexual orientations whatever it is it all has a cultural lens to how a person interprets pain and whether pain is a good thing or a bad thing right so um for example in the military if somebody goes through a painful events that doesn’t necessarily mean that’s a bad thing and what I mean by that is that it might create um strength resilience it might be empowering for the person to kind of get through a hard event versus um if you feel like you’re alone in the pain and then all of a sudden that context changes of it being good to bad right so I think that those are all things that we can spend um in a lot of ways right so whether it be a person that’s coming right out of a deployment and how they experience pain that they experience pain physically or emotionally while they’re in in their actual deployment um all that the context continues to change their definition of what that means though
yeah beautiful excuse me I was I was reminded of a quote so I just pulled it up on my phone there for the book that I want to I want to bring to the viewers but before I dive into these fantastic little statements and insights you guys have in these books that are that are worthwhile and uh key takeaways uh the metaphor throughout the book is right okay if you’re in the military and you have a mission coming up right whether it’s a covert Mission or whatever the case might be you want to be prepared for that mission and you want to show up in the best possible way so you have a rucksack right and you’re going to pack that rucksack with all of the things that are going to get you through that mission and get you home safely at the end of the day you know maybe it’s a pocket knife you know maybe it’s your medical kit whatever the case might be and what we’re stuffing in there so valuable and important and I’m just without me stealing the show of this metaphor throughout the book um you know just love for the viewers to hear kind of your guys’s takeaway and the value of that um ultimately the value of of that metaphor throughout the book
I can I can I can start with that here so I think uh a bit a big part of the metaphor is to change your gear right is to change Dr rucksack to clean it out um and that’s not to say that it that the gear you have is wrong right so for a lot of for a lot of folks uh in the veteran community they had a lot of gear that helped them survive unspeakable just events that very few folks learn what happened and um there’s a level of emotional attachment to that gear right it got you through a very hard moment in your life and so whether that gear is a very physical piece of gear of a hat or a shirt or if it was a mentality or if it was a rule of I will not do this I will not show this I will not talk about this that gear is pretty narrow deep in there for them and so I think that um there’s a level of surrender or almost acceptance that we can put down that piece of gear and put new gear in there that is more efficient for you in this in the civilian world and um that takes time right that’s not an easy transition to make and some veterans are able to change out some gear pretty fast and some veterans really struggle with it and um that doesn’t make one writer wrong but it often does correlate to certain issues that we see and so for example some veterans are more than willing to talk about their experience in the military some veterans won’t talk about anything right and so those rules are different um and their relationship with that gear is different and so a big part of this book is acknowledging validating that yes this gear is important to you yes we want to honor that and what would happen if you took one chance and just took down one piece of gear to see what would happen did it actually is it is this is a a better version of it it’s kind of like uh you have your old Flashlight let me give you a brand new one that’s even better that can be more work than usual yeah just give it a chance right and so I think that’s a big metaphor that we continue to kind of hammer in in this book yeah and I would uh just kind of build off that a little bit I think something that was so important for us writing this book together was we wanted to actually give actual strategies um and that is huge for you know any community that is actually trying to make differences and changes and um so it’s not just this metaphorical idea of you know let’s change out our gear let’s you know this is something that you should be thinking about and we actually do I mean we have reflective questions throughout as well of course but we have actual tangible next steps is what we we call them for folks to you know switch out that gear switch out the strategies that they’re trying um you know I always joke with my clients you know why are you here to see me and they’ll be like uh because I want help I’m like no no let’s get to it why are you here and and a lot of times it’s like well okay yeah you know it nothing else has worked and I’m at the point now where yeah I I know I need you I know I know I need to I need help I need help everything else I’m exhausted right like and I’m always like yes let’s be honest let’s be right there right so the same thing you know when someone picks up a book you know you’re trying to think about like gosh things aren’t working right now so what can I gather is there something in here that I can gather and that’s the big thing too right so the the metaphorical rucksack but also like Hey we’re gonna give you some strategies to try to switch out see what works um and Dustin and I are huge we’re huge on hey not everything is gonna work for you in the book um you know see what works try it out if it doesn’t work switch it up do something else different so we give a lot of options just for that reason so that’s beautiful yeah and it reminds me when you guys sorry Dustin go ahead yeah well I was going to add just to add to that really fast too is that similar what we were talking about earlier around um going into therapy and kind of deconstructing that narrative there’s also a level of you know if you do try a new tool it might not be the best fit initially right it’s kind of like putting out a new pair of shoes you got to get used to it right and so it’s going to wear in a little bit and so that that’s also a big part of this too is that when you do try a new tool when you do try to kind of put your foot in the water and you tap it to see what happens it takes a second to get used to that temperature right so I think there’s a level level of almost taking a chance too absolutely and I think it actually I was just reminding me I think there’s a part in there where you guys talk about how in the military there’s a manual for everything and uh there’s not necessarily a manual for this transition back into becoming a civilian this transition of uh trying to deal with uh you know pain psychological sociological um physical what what have you and so it does feel there is a manual ish component to the book where it does start to give you some of those tools and it gives you Direction you know and I think that that is a really important something that again and clinically we can typically can shy away from is that idea of being directive within the actual clinical world and within the clinical relationship but here it feels very natural and it feels very um at this it feels I don’t know you guys do spend a lot of time normalizing certain things throughout the book and that is a again something that made it feel very excess accessible but yeah I think that there is uh it just reminds me of that idea of like there’s no manual for for this so but here here’s a start you know here’s something to get you going so yeah yeah and then I I think at you know uh at this juncture for me as well too the thing that I want to highlight um and really just to start to sink the teeth into this because I think it’s so important that we’re speaking uh this book isn’t I think this book can work for anybody at the same time it’s speaking very directly to uh a set group of individuals and sinking our teeth into the text the the I the component of identity and sort of an identity crisis and I think one of the very powerful messages and and I’ve seen this in other written text about war and community and tribalism and all of these aspects of the military that you get right but there was something that just kind of broke my heart in the book it was one of the quotes I can’t remember the name of the beginning of the chapter but basically it was a military you know person State when I got into the military you eat with you know each other you you fight with each other you you know you you go back and forth with each other you exercise together you’re tired together you get injured together you’re exhausted you fight for each other together and then when you step outside of the military and you step into a job uh in that regard yeah people you know maybe help out in the job environment and those sorts of things but but you you go from this full force I got your back into an office space that’s like well I’m working on something that’s important over here I’ll get to you later and um and I was just so disheartening and uh and I and I really just want to bring that to light because there are real challenges from transitioning to military life into civilian life and I’ve even I got a I got a military buddy of mine or whatever and I was just talking about my civilian stuff and what’s going on and he was just like I know I’m kind of glad I haven’t made that transition into that yet you know and there’s a there’s a special feature within the military that honors that sort of communal aspect of things and it’s a real empowered identity component and would just love for you you know both of you to share in you know your perspective and why you were bringing that into the book and in the first place and what you’re honoring with uh within those texts
yeah that’s a wonderful Point um I I think in a lot of ways when when a person is entering the military there is a change in identity when they’re in the military there’s a change in identity when they’re leaving relationship to change the identity right it’s a constant shift and um you know I grief is probably the best word that I think of when somebody’s transitioning out of the military because there’s such a culture shock that tends to happen whether it’s active duty or National Guard you’re still transitioning different ways of perceiving the world and um I think that’s important to be honored and understood and in the same breath I you know we actually talk about this later on in the book around this idea that when um when when a person comes home from the military let’s say they join the military at 18 they get out at 22-23 and they get home and they they go to this landscape they go to this restaurant all their friends are there and next to their friends are all their spouses and their kids and they got their college degrees and you’re just like what just happened I just lost five years of my life and I did this great honorable thing um had a lot of stuff a lot of stories to tell right and no one knows how to talk to me because they can’t connect to what I went through they are clearly a different stage of my life and so there’s this immediate like all kind of earlier saying it’s the idea of being alone being isolated being left out and um and then so naturally kind of a few things happen there one we go to try to find a community and it’s harder than you think you know and then there’s also this piece around you know do you go to common places like the VA or pfws or places like that where you know you’re going to find people of your community um or do you grab onto that old gear of hunker down and kind of keep going right and then we also see that and there’s plenty as well so um I think that’s it’s important I understand when you do encounter a person that is leaving the military or getting ready to leave the military that is exactly the time to kind of reach out and be like how where are you at how are you doing because um whether or not they see it as a problem or not um it’s not necessarily a problem but it is something to be honored and understood and so um I think you know the more proactive we can get with that the better it will be yeah absolutely yeah and I think you know the the piece that you’re bringing up Brandon is you know this idea of like the individualistic versus collectivistic approach that you know maybe we know from different cultures and backgrounds and um you know I can’t tell you the number of veterans I’ve worked with where this is it breaks my heart it’s hard to hear that and it’s hard to um see the pain that they go through of feeling like that there’s not the joint Mission or there’s not the joint value system that was so hammered in for so you know long or even short periods of time but was just highlighted as like a core belief system of like this is how we go about things um and when you have that hammered in as a core belief system and it’s been a successful right so then you they see successes from that quarterly system of working together and then you get back into civilian life and jobs and family and there’s this more individualistic like let’s let how do I succeed myself rather than this work together mentality it is very difficult to navigate that um so exactly what Dustin said that feeling of grief being alone um and it’s it brings back a lot of pain it brings about well how do I deal with this now and um that’s when we see folks maybe turning to unhealthy coping strategies and um having more depression and anxiety and um it’s very tough so I’m glad you’re bringing that up Brandon that’s a very important part of the book yeah yeah and I and just to keep that thread going as well too uh in recognition I think we got we got to find out better ways on the civilian side of things to talk to Veterans and talk to active military I mean another part of the book that broke my heart is right like common experiences of military members from civilians like I mean I’m going to say because it’s in the book but like did you kill someone you know like ah no don’t ask that question it I mean I can’t imagine asking that question myself I don’t I don’t know how as a civilians we’re trying to make connections there or why that’s a cool thing but that’s not why people get in the military to kill it’s an unfortunate aspect of you know battles and War and those types of things but I’m sharing this and hopefully you know uh for your two from year two professional lenses and certainly dust in your own experience is like what what are some like recommendations for how to approach military members I mean I feel like curiosity is key here um but you know what advice can we give to civilians to just better approach our military service members so veterans are active military even family systems so that we don’t come forward with such I don’t know such naive statements and questions about the service great great question so I think um uh there’s a there’s a few things there so I think in in one of the one of the key aspects of this is just to your point that people are curious people don’t have the language or know how to necessarily connect or talk but I think the key word in that is connect right so um you know I I was very fortunate you know in high school I had a you know a group of like 10 guys and we’re still friends right and so one of one of the one of the most sharest moments I had was when I actually came back from the military um they all kind of picked me up from the airport and in that car ride I couldn’t tell you how many questions are being asked right and and it was just like what what where did you come up with that idea like where do you think this is and um and and and they were coming at it from Pure care love concern curiosity there was nothing meant to be insulting or to insinuate anything I think that’s one of the things we also talk about too in the book is is the idea that it’s not personal right that a lot of people just don’t know any better and I think the same thing happens with people in recovery too so I also want to kind of kind of hit on that as well that folks are going through addiction recovery people don’t understand how to talk to people that are in recovery and that’s such an important I I idea to understand that they’re really trying to understand where you are and it’s not it’s not meant to be a flight or something of that nature um my My Philosophy and I say this not only in my personal life but I even say professionally I think about this idea a lot of playing dumb and it’s a weird it’s a weird uh strategy here but it’s actually quite effective and that is that don’t make any assumptions just assume you know nothing and approach it in that way and you will often find a better narrative than pre-assuming what you think they’re going to say and then asking a question with a with an agenda for example so I think that um approaching veterans in that way is is a much more helpful approach than what we have done in the past yeah and I I would add so talking from someone where I’ve asked Dustin lots of questions I think in the beginning of our you know our book um that’s how we open it up is like this is how I mean we personally have navigated our relationship and me trying to better understand his experience in the military and um now as a veteran and um I think yeah twofold here right like trying not to come at and there’s a whole section about this like things that are very typical because you’re a veteran right dot dot dot fill in the blank and it’s like okay let’s let’s build on that idea that assumption or these biases that maybe you’ve seen in movies or you talk to One veteran and that was their experience and like let’s not generalize out right um and then I think what Dustin is beautifully saying is this idea of hoping to have a kind heart of coming at the person that’s asking these questions in a way that is um open and not assuming that it’s a negative thing um and I I think that’s something that um it brings both sides together so not just this feeling of and that’s what our book really tried to do was talk about both sides you know how as a veteran do you handle that when that is being asked and then also hopefully helping readers that are non-veterans understand like how can we ask and not make assumptions um I’m going to give a little example the not playing dumb question or way of Dustin so I think one thing that and this is so it’s not plain dumb but it’s you know the the asking for clarification or more understanding of what that means if you know someone asks you that question of you know did you kill someone which is oh that is heavy right you know maybe our response is you know I’m just curious what made you ask that and I think that people then can reflect back like oh [ __ ] why did I ask that excuse my language I don’t know if we’re allowed to curse you know we’re talking to military members here we’re good I think right and but sometimes like coming at that it’s not like this like you know what the hell why’d you ask an e-rated it’s like what made you ask me that and then sometimes that reflection back the person might be like I don’t know I guess I just thought and it’s like hey yeah I get that you’re asking that in this way and that might be a sense of a thing like or maybe you’re open with that person and that leads to a really deep conversation but sometimes these more like neutral ways of getting into conversations you know what made you ask that or I’m just curious you know that Curiosity piece that you’re bringing up um can just kind of help neutralize really heavy heavy stuff that veterans experience and on the other side maybe that question or Vision that civilians might think that you know a serviceman member had experienced so yeah in a and I want to pass the torch here to Clinton in just a sec but just to tie that up you know I’m trying to be like a clever host here and that you guys wrote the book and you’re bringing the book right to the assumptions right you know when you when you make assumptions you make an asset of you and me it’s the beginning of one of your chapters uh there as well too and so I’m grateful that you you pulled that out of the text for us out of really in that question and it’s challenging too because did you kill someone I mean as as one of the quotes stated in the books I mean you know soldiers are unfortunately especially in the Iraq you know Afghanistan conflict amine rifles at children uh not out of a desire whatsoever to do so but it’s the environment that they’re in and so a question like that um can uh can just be so devastating I can imagine for a military personnel because we’re not always pointing guns at what we perceive as enemies in that way so uh before I I fire off more about these incredible aspects of the books I think I think Clinton’s engine to say something oh I oh I’m honestly I’m just thinking about how what you guys were just talking about actually would translate really well into the clinical world as well as especially for clinicians and professionals who have not experienced the military or a very limited experience with the military because I uh you guys do you really normalize that hesitation or maybe a lack of feeling like there would be a connection between somebody who was a veteran and a professional who is not but also our very pragmatic in saying that hey that’s what seven percent of the population and you know your the chances are if you’re going to look for help if you’re gonna if you’re gonna follow these steps if you’re going to take that leap and take that risk chances are you’re going to be working with somebody who is not has not had those experiences um but I also I think that there’s a responsibility as a professional for us to be able to to know how to navigate those situations because I guarantee you in grad school I did not take a like working with veterans class like that was not offered so um I just yeah I and I guess my question would be is does that I’m assuming that those same kind of strategies would work in the clinical realm but are there other clinical approaches that you might recommend are there other ways that uh you guys have recognized um you know non-veteren or non-military professionals uh have had luck with or been or maybe things that we should shy away from as professionals
okay okay I was just gonna say so um and I think towards the end of the book we have a few quotes so that’s like one of my favorite parts of the book is that we have veteran voices so we call it the veteran voice and we actually reached out to a bunch of veterans that spoke and we had actually the literal list that we asked to the veterans is the bat it’s in the last chapter I think of the book um or towards the end of the book anyway um and I can’t tell you the number of quotes that we got from veterans because we asked them what would you want a clinician to know um and there was so many quotes that were just like be patient be patient and I think being patient comes with you know you’re not gonna go out the get-go like tell me about your experience and all the difficult hard things that you went through it’s okay pacing and I’m sure you’ve you know other clinicians have heard that like the importance of pacing and that’s really important with Veterans of pet pacing and letting folks come at their own rate of what they want to share when they want to share it that control piece um especially if you’re working with them with trauma right that’s a that’s a big deal 100 yeah um that would be my biggest thing is that patience peace pacing um remembering you know letting your client share what they want um especially if you know someone’s been through a lot of trauma um and perceived trauma so you know right like maybe I’m perceiving that as the clinician is traumatic but maybe they’re not there yet and we they haven’t named that for them so um I think that’s really important actually that I want and Dustin please build off of that but I do want to kind of bring that because I can’t I don’t think we can leave what Brandon said kind of in the wind about you know the the piece about the children and I you know I just want to say our book definitely hits and is heavy there’s different parts I mean that’s a heavy heavy part of our book right um and I think that you know this is an important time to say this you know as we’re all talking about this of the sensitivity of that and recognizing that veterans and Military members have probably experienced and seen a lot of things that non-civilians have seen and Justin I want you to please build on this of course from your experience but I think that we bring these stories into the book in hopes to really bring about an understanding of this is heavy this isn’t something to be flippant about and we want to really acknowledge and respect that so um I just and that that kind of builds off of like how you kind of go into working with veterans right so um but Justin please definitely expand on that I just couldn’t leave that in the wind that was definitely something and thank you for for doing that Carrie so yeah much appreciated yeah um uh so I think there’s a few pieces of that too because I think uh in a lot of ways yes the book is very heavy and one of the best pieces of a book is you can always put it down right so if something’s hitting you you need a moment just put that book down right it’s gonna be waiting for you to get back right um and so I think that that’s such an important piece versus sometimes you feel like you’re in positions where you can’t leave you can’t not talk about it you’re feeling cornered by somebody to talk about something that’s hard so I think that this is also a great part of the book but um one of the aspects that I think is important you know whether it be a very specific situation involving children or um things that goes against your value systems you know the the concept of moral trauma is a really important piece in this uh around understanding the things that you do um or have to do as part of your job that goes against your value systems or things that you see that go against your value systems um I should talk about this a lot with my patients um in the substance use treatment that I I work in around the things that you do Under the Influence you never do sober right and so how do you how do you make sense are the actual disconnect or even distance between what you did who you think you are and who you actually are right so there’s there’s all this stuff to make sense of there um and so I think that’s an important aspect to also kind of think of when you’re working with a veteran as well that whether or not we’re making assumptions that their deployment was traumatic or not whether or not they might share a story with you that they kind of laugh about oh I saw this and oh I saw that ha ha ha and our heads were like what what did you just say like that’s why that’s awful um it might not necessarily be that to them and that’s not to say that they’re cold or they don’t care but it’s also a defense mechanism right that they had to use dark humor to get through a really hard moment and so we have to honor that and kind of not approach that with any sort of assumption so I think that that’s one piece of it uh to answer your question as well around how to work with veterans I think also taking a cultural component to it veterans love to use acronyms veterans love to um you know use different words or code names or um you know a lot of last names are used when they talk about buddies and things like that as well and so being able to say like I heard you just say this acronym whatever it is what what is that right and so then you have a whole hour-long session of what what they go through and that one month in January right so I think that there’s there’s opportunities in all those stories and um and then that probably would be another piece of it too is taking A Narrative Approach where the veteran can be really effective because they’ve got the stories and they for some people either they haven’t been asked the right way or they haven’t been given the space to actually talk about it and so um I think that that’s also another way to kind of think of how to work with veterans absolutely that’s great yeah beautiful and so gosh there’s there’s so many awesome I mean we could go into like Solutions we can keep there’s so many great aspects we won’t be able to peel all the layers but that’s why you’re going to go out and buy the book Folks at the end of this uh episode at the end of the day I mean speaking of both civilians and Military members I think it has value on both sides of this um and in certain worthy certainly worthy of an investing in you know the the book as we kind of started with starts with kind of pain man physical pain management and symptoms around that and it’s a starting point to talk about pain because we I think we all fundamentally understand or as a common experience both civilians and Military members that physical aspect of things but it feels important to start with that in it I’m gonna so I’m gonna pose it as a question here without reeling through all the pain you know trauma and so forth throughout the book but is it a common experience for you guys in your work with veterans that they come in and they’re only associating pain with the physical and that’s why it starts there to get give them room to explore how this all contributes maybe to physical emotion trauma pain and so forth
I think it’s a little I have a very biased I you know I’m working so a lot of times people are coming to me because they have something you know going on physically so I I think my I might be a little skewed My Lens might be very different than and so I would like Dustin maybe dig into this so I mean I’m working with a lot of chronic pain patients um and um I think that what my experience has been with working with vets is that sometimes talking about the physicality and how that’s such a trickle-down effect to you know the things that it gets in the way of like not being able to do a lot of the things that they would necessarily um or that they would have done um previously and the physicality of being in the military and how you know physically rigorous that can be and how that’s changed for them now that they’re you know back is you know such a problem and you know they’re not able to go and do the things that they were with their grandkids or their kids that they want and um so I I think sometimes that that that’s I see that trickle down very easily um and sometimes too I I and I I think this is why we intentionally put it first is um physical pain not always but can be more um visible and that’s a huge huge part of um you know exploring pain addiction I mean a lot of times experiences are invisible so people can’t see what someone is going through and then there’s this intangible well I can’t see it so how is that still happening and I oh it just makes my skin crawl because it’s like oh well so are we just going to invalidate that because we can’t see something but um you know sometimes when the physical pain aspects there are things that you can physically see with you know an MRI or a CT scan or you know if an amputation had happened for them um so I think that sometimes that that can be a little bit of a easier way to get in and talk about pain um and then that trickle down effect so um but I’m very very biased because a lot of my patients already are coming for you know the rehab sense of um why they come see me so Dustin curious about your experience with beds yeah well I probably have a similar bias with substance abuse because yeah I’m working you know primarily with that but um I would say I would say yes to a certain extent you do see a good amount of physical pain or chronic pain that coincide with with uh a veteran’s presentation but I think um I think you know if we also look at the cultural component to similar to to 12 just said or this idea that it’s more visible it’s also what I would call earned and what I mean by that is um so you know when I was in the military I was a 19 kilo which is a fancy word of saying I was a tanker so my my running joke because I was small enough to fit into a tank so we did that for a while uh and uh I think I think you know that’s great it’s fun it’s like a big turtle I love it um and you got to jump down off eight feet ten feet all the time and your knees are just done within a couple of years that the first part and so um but that’s also earned right that’s part of my job I had to jump down even though manual they told you you know three points of contact get down there slowly you didn’t always do that um and so um I think there’s also this level of again a it’s a narrative it tells you can you learn a lot about their pain through the story of how they got it um but there’s also this level of um culturally what’s safe to talk about and what’s not safe to talk about based on the gear that they have right so um whether it be visible or not physical pain is something that a lot of folks can see they can they can understand they can help in some ways too um but that can almost mask what’s going on underneath too and so I think there’s a level of yes that’s there that’s an important part of this but there’s other things that maybe they’re doing to also then manage that pain right are they using substances to manage that pain to be able to go to their grandkids baseball game right and so are they using alcohol are they using opioids what are they doing to try to get through that and then what message is that saying to them and you’re just kid you’re just layering this now um and so we have to pull out all those layers to understand it yeah I love that you’re bringing the earned piece up because that is something that is a um a giant part of the feeling of like it this is earned then I you know I’m resilient I I’ve earned this and I’m supposed to be able to persevere and be resilient and um you know I think that’s a large message right that we talk about in our book is this idea of in the military pain too is something that you’re supposed to smush down and keep going um and there’s a lot of veterans that I’ve worked with that hadn’t just keep going I’m just going to keep going and that’s a huge part with physical pain especially where it’s like wait a second wait a second if we keep going how many days after you keep going are you then out for the count because you kept going um and we we talk about pacing and how like you know if we if we Pace a little bit then we might be able to do more the next few days and um so it’s this again this trying to re-learn that yes so here’s how this worked and served you and why this felt earned in this moment but now now that we’re trying that that same mentality um after military um it’s different you’re you’re pushing through and it’s hurting you for a whole week and oh my goodness now your quality of life you’re missing out on all these things that you wish you were doing um and guess what there’s nothing to earn for missing out this is you missed out now and so it’s that’s a really entrenched belief system as well so I’m so happy brought that up Dustin it’s a great point out and uh you know I yeah I climb a lot of the Mounds here and the old Rocky Mountains that we get to live in here beautiful Rocky Mountains in Colorado and that three points of contact makes a ton of sense when like you’re on a mountain you’re just in you know you know the the blue skies or whatever take your time and that sort of thing and I it’s interesting Dustin that you pointed out there’s a manual for three points of contact how to get in a tank but like when you’re in that environment especially in intensity or you know bullets are flinging and all that stuff like the manual goes out the window and just getting a damn tank and like you know take off in that regard and I think it’s a it’s an interesting balance as well too or it’s coming up for me it’s not necessarily in the book but that transition into civilian life like in the in in the military life you got to look at a manual and say okay this makes sense for training now we’re now we’re in a real environment throw the manual out in civilian life it’s like you never really get to throw the manual how you kind of just you know HR departments and all of those things and so forth and like there’s a there’s a collision there of like just let me do my job and I I’m just curious if you could you know speak to you know maybe a little bit again about that sort of transitionary period and what that’s like for a military service member to go from an environment of which like you have an autonomy at any given moment to do what you feel is right versus what the manual is telling you to do is sort of a transition into civilian life yeah I think the first word that comes to my head is frustration right a lot of veterans are frustrated um I don’t I want to say all veterans but many veterans come home and they’re very frustrated by whether it be inefficiency how it ought to be done what worked for them um and whether they you know they they go into their first job host military and they have a certain way of working with a team swearing um how they want to communicate and it does not connect to the culture that is in that system or in that job or the organization and then again it goes back to that isolating like I’m different I’m alone no understands me like why why is this so hard um and so that that again can be a really tough transition for for a person um and I I think in a similar vein too that the idea that there there were the manuals and then there was kind of like the moral code and the right code and all these different kind of codes that we often had and um I would argue there’s still similar things there’s a way to kind of translate that in into the civilian world of like ethically or morally what’s right versus what you’re doing and I think that there’s a way to kind of create language to kind of have them meld together uh I just think again that takes time to understand that to understand where they’re coming from where the culture is coming from and kind of how they can kind of meld together and um sometimes time can be helpful for a person to kind of reintegrate back versus um the assumption that I get home I must just be back and that’s not that’s not a a an effective way of looking at it and so um it’s it’s honorable it’s it’s very admirable that you want to just kind of go back and jump right in and keep going which again is a very military mindset in in our book we also talk about the difference between military culture versus veteran culture and they’re distinctly different and um a lot of veterans a lot of people working with veterans don’t even always understand those differences because often our assumptions are based on Military culture based on what we see versus veteran culture you haven’t even entered it into that world yet right so you leave the military and all of a sudden you’re now in this new culture called veteran culture and you have no idea what the dorms are behaviors our attitudes are they’re supposed to just know it and so that again that was a huge disconnect to that so plenty plenty of opportunities there for sure yeah absolutely yeah and I know your your book is aimed at you know fighting both pain and addiction and I want to get to my to my cool quote here um to to kick this off because I’m telling you folks at home like there’s so many cool golden nuggets and statements like this uh but this is on the tangible next steps uh to change your gear and it is it comes after the question or several questions um but it says whatever your answer is to changing your gear know that substances are bad dysfunctional recall worthy maladaptive tainted [ __ ] pieces of gear um jeez I just love that gosh that just that’s a good one uh that all the that all the viewers can take home at the end of the day um so I I bring that quote up because you’re you’re asking in a way veterans to find better coping mechanisms around their physical pain their trauma pain you talk about you know opioids for physical pain you talk about benzodiazepines for um you know quelling emotionally even at times slightly physical pain um you know but anxiety and effects of that nature okay so you want me to go off this medication that’s provided in some net of safety um I think in our experiences at Peaks it’s it there’s certainly a scariness to that as well too because it is the protective layer that’s existed there but these drugs at the end of the day um are as you point out in your book are supposed to be used for short time periods but we’re talking about chronic conditions anxiety depression PTSD and so forth and so short-term episodes these things are going to work for but for chronic conditions they are not going to work for so maybe you’re sitting in front of a military you know member veteran and so forth and they say like well I’m in pain underneath this you know and it sounds like in that regard maybe there’s a non-caring about that pain and a discomfort from moving through that as a challenge but we have to replace the the rucksack with these tools right because drugs and alcohol are short-term relief but they’re not going to work for chronic conditions and would just love for you guys to speak uh to that value system within the books and and really again what you’re asking military members to do kind of a kind of a out of a notion of trust and how we move forward from kind of removing these maladaptive coping mechanisms
well you know I think so from my experience I think that a lot of folks um when they’re using some sort of substance um they’re sometimes a genuineness of like I know this might not be the best way to handle this right but it feels good in the moment it’s my only solution sometimes you know maybe my five coping strategies didn’t work but I am trying this right now and it’s going to push things away and I think we talk about in the group or out in the group in the um book that um you know that a lot of times when we are using um those Sensations the pain whether it be physical social emotional pain they’re thereafter right they’re they’re still there and um you know this short-term solution if we understand that that’s still there then what are we trying to get at are we trying to lean in and satisfy something on the short term or are we trying to better understand how to you know get through day to day in a longer term basis so um you know sustainability is a big thing that I talk about with a lot of my clients of like what is sustainable and I think that’s the hard thing with using right so we know that over time when you start it start maybe starts with you know one beer and then it gets to wow this isn’t sustainable I have to increase I have to you know now I’m using at these different times of the day and this is I mean it’s not sustainable so these Solutions and these different strategies that we’re talking about are things that are sustainable that can last over time that can look different each time um and I think that’s kind of the the thing that I talk about with a lot of folks is like this isn’t um a you know remote control where we’re going up and down you’re increasing the frequency or this is something you can make variations of but in different environment situations people and that’s that’s the big thing is like how do we get that buy-in that this is something that um can be longer lasting and and healthier for the body because we want to be longer lasting right that’s I think genuinely where people come from you know I tell folks all the time we are built to heal none of us want to stay in this place of pain you know physical social emotional whatever pain you’re dealing with whatever so none of us want to deal with that so how do we heal from inside out and and the best way to do that is going through some of these strategies seeking support you know this we are very big in the book of like this isn’t going to be the cure-all like right please go see a provider go get treatment do these things that are also going to be way longer lasting um you know people are coming to the book probably at different places with their addiction and recovery so um but that’s that’s a huge part of sustainability and recognizing these short-term Solutions are you know kind of in the meantime right so one of one of the the images that just came in my head was uh Indiana Jones and he’s in that cave he’s grabbing that thing’s going to replace it really fast that nothing bad happened right and that’s kind of how I see this in a lot of ways that we’re not asking to do that we’re not asking you just replace and just go Um right uh there’s a level of we got to get out of that cave right then then we can kind of work our way back um but uh you know yeah I think uh we have to honor their pain we have to honor what they’re protecting we have to honor what is not working um and I think it’s more about changing our relationship with the skill before we can actually take it away um you know earlier I was talking about about military culture and back in back in the military culture alcohol things of that nature are celebrated um or used to kind of get through a hard event right whether you’re grieving or you’re celebrating getting back from a mission or you’re um not not necessarily overseas but when you’re coming back from like a training or right when you first get home um from from deployment you use substances in tandem with a feeling right and so I think there’s a level of we have to kind of change that relationship that we that we’re going to pair that substance with a feeling versus kind of separating them in some respects and so I think a lot of people when they for example when they first come to treatment we first have to kind of stabilize that person away from the substance and then we can get to the feeling right but we if we if we keep them in tandem right next to each other the whole time that’s going to be hard and so I think that um being able to do that’s a process it takes time um I remember telling a lot of my vets produce working at different va’s that we might spend 12 months talking about how the trauma impacted you where we actually talked about the trauma itself and that’s not to slight your