Finding Peaks
Walking Through Shame, Resilience, and Self-Forgiveness
Episode 56
Walking Through Shame, Resilience, and Self-Forgiveness
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Description
In this episode, we are joined by recurring guest Madelyn Padilla UN, and Samantha Archuleta MA, LPCC to talk about shame, resilience, and self-forgiveness.
Talking Points
- Reviewing the definition of shame
- Explaining the different ways shame can manifest in a person
- Reviewing the true meaning of resilience
- Various coping strategies we help clients improve within our curriculum
Quotes
“You just modeled resilience right here by telling your story and kind of getting caught up in it. That takes a tremendous amount of courage. But that’s what weakens shame, I think when we own our story, the good, the bad, and the ugly. That’s what helps build our resilience.”
– Jason Friesema, MA, LPC, LAC, Chief Clinical Officer
Episode Transcripts
Episode 56 Transcripts
empathy is knowing your own darkness
without that connection you don’t have
anything what’s the opposite of
addiction just freedom
hello and welcome to finding peaks i’m
jason friesma
chief clinical officer of peaks recovery
centers here in colorado springs and
denver
joining me today
madeline padilla admissions specialist
slash test driving co-host here with me
today guest co-host maybe yeah
and um
and samantha archuleta primary therapist
uh for
our iop program as well as uh doing some
work for our in residential program as
well
um thank you guys for uh joining me
today on finding peeks
um
you know i’m following up the last
couple times i’ve hosted uh we’ve talked
about grief
and so i wanted to keep it light today
and bring up
shame
if we could and resilience
and uh and even self-forgiveness if we
could but uh obviously i say that in
some just but
i’ll start with kind of talking about
what shame is um
and i learned a lot about shame in all
fairness from brene brown i actually had
the privilege of
uh being trained by her specifically in
and um it was a phenomenal conference
that she put on um
and i’m like
whoever this is i like what she’s
talking about but i don’t like the topic
um
and so
shame is pretty much defined as uh
feeling bad about who you are
and um
usually shame statements start with the
words i am um and then
uh and the thing about shame is we all
have it it’s ubiquitous every single
person on the planet pretty much with a
few exceptions probably
carry around shame we all have it
and um the tricky thing about shame is
it tells us uh that if we talk about it
if we expose it to the light
people want to flee from us they won’t
want to be in relationship with us
anymore um
and so we tend to hide it and then it is
that very hiding of the shame that
causes it to get worse
and it reinforces itself
and then frankly uh the reason i think
it’s such an important topic for us to
talk about is that i think it’s one of
the huge leading factors that lead
people into relapse either on substances
or with their mental health issues is
that they just are calling themselves a
piece of garbage all the time and when
and when that is the message that
somebody is telling themself all the
time then that is
uh how they’re going to begin to act and
behave
um
and so that’s just kind of my little uh
overview of what shame is uh and it sets
the tone for this
um and the other thing that i do want to
point out we all have it and then
usually when we talk about it we usually
feel even more of it for a minute and so
i just want to acknowledge that if if
people are watching at home or whatever
and we talk about shame well you might
experience a little bit of it but stay
till the end because we have a solution
for it um make friends with it make
friends with your shame uh invite it on
the couch take a seat but it’s sid chad
um it’s already talking to you so you
might as well invite it in
um anyway so there’s my intro
um samantha i’m gonna go to you first
and and my question about shame is
how do you see it showing up uh for you
and your clinical work with clients
often times with our clients i think
shame shows up as
any other emotion they’ll deflect anger
sadness frustration um
wanting to leave wanting to get out of
the situation because their shame is so
powerful telling them not to talk about
it yeah we’re gonna talk about
everything but this piece and then as
soon as you get to the shame with our
clients it’s almost like they melt into
recovery and treatment and
wanting to get better now because they
realize that
they we see them and that they’re not
worse worse off for being seen they’re
better off for being seen
yeah that’s that’s good no and you’re
right though if
there are there are there is data to
suggest that if you ask people a group
of people what are the most destructive
emotions that there are they will always
answer anger and fear every single time
and that is not the case at all
but no one ever that didn’t even make
the top five right but
shame by as far as the most destructive
absolutely yeah yeah but anger
close second would be fear so it makes
sense that that’s what you see the most
yeah
and i think you know i think you make a
good point that people do often mislabel
it and you said it i think right before
we came on the show here but people
often
say things are embarrassing but they’re
actually quite shameful
right like embarrassment um
[Music]
is uh
is an emotion that we experience it
feels the same like you flush you might
turn red or whatever but but really
embarrassment is categorized by it’s an
emotion
um that is fleeting like it goes away
very quickly with time and usually
you’re gonna laugh about it later you
know what i mean like if it turns out i
do this whole show and i’ve got a booger
in my nose
um i’m gonna have a i’m gonna feel
embarrassed i got a big one bat in the
cave
um
but i’m gonna feel embarrassed but it
could happen to anybody and honestly at
some point i’m gonna laugh and think
it’s actually kind of funny right if i
experience it as shame i’m just gonna be
like i am such an idiot uh because i
can’t even take care of my hygiene that
makes total sense you look at um
embarrassment guilt is is the amygdala
in the brain right and then you you you
look at someone that’s experiencing a
lot of shame it kind of is in the right
and it’s up in the front yeah
where does our sense of self come from
or our projection of ourself in the
future uh oh
we’re up there in the front so yeah it
totally makes sense that those would be
very different um consequences yeah to
both of those things
yes
guilt
guilt guilt’s what yeah you know it
comes and goes
you know what gil keeps us in the
parameters of society and it is very
good i think it’s constructive i don’t
i’m not gonna steal this it’s all good
because i know that that’s wrong and
then
with the shame piece it’s like this is
me i’m like the my core this is me a me
problem and it’s it’s not something that
comes and goes and that’s it’s like you
are that thing you know i get that on
the phone a lot from people too or they
say he has no shame he is shameless
he’s using drugs in my house he’s doing
this he’s doing that it’s like
he doesn’t have it he is it yeah that’s
what it is you know it’s not something
that he has it’s something that he is
and
when you put it like that people take a
step back
it’s not that’s not an accountability
issue that’s a
a place of being issue yes yeah when i
and i you are exactly right and i’ve
shared this on finding peace before but
you know i i’ve done a group on shame
and i love to ask like who in here feels
like they’re the worst person on the
planet and at least half the group
raises their hand
and i think you’re exactly right yes
they’re using drugs in your house not
because they don’t feel it but it’s
literally because oftentimes the very
things they’re telling themselves
they’re just reinforcing like if you if
i’m the worst person on the planet of
course i use drugs in my parents house
makes sense
right i’m the worst person on the planet
that’s what i’m calling myself and that
is a very shameful statement
and and not feeling shame is about
would be about like i’m trying to cause
harm to other people like i have malice
in my intent
and and i honest i’ve done this work for
single person
that i felt like has true malice that
they really are trying to be that
destructive you said something
in one of our um
in one of our trainings with admissions
you said people’s behaviors make sense
yeah and you say this to me all the time
people’s behaviors make sense
if you if you take that lens and you
look at everything through that lens the
behavior makes sense you can access way
more compassion for people
you
people do what they feel that they are
right and so
him hiding out in your basement you know
that totally makes sense yeah because
he’s because he’s the pos right because
he’s whatever yeah
people’s behaviors make sense that has
really helped me in a lot of situations
absolutely
so how do we build resilience with
people because that’s the opposite of
shame right is to to work on building
resilience
um within them and sam i’m going to
throw that question to you of course
i think it’s
compassion and empathy is the biggest
one which is so bernie brown of us
to say empathy is the it’s the light
that heals the dark part that we don’t
want people to see
empty for self empathy for others
sometimes when you can sit with another
person and you’re ashamed and they can
share their shame and you can have a
moment of you’re both in your shame and
it’s okay and you still value each other
care about each other and can
love each other after the fact
then there’s that empathy that we need
that we can heal and move forward with
love
yeah yeah
literally
compassion is it sit and suffering
that’s the breakdown you sit and you’re
suffering and you’re sitting together
together and that’s it right so
community i guess two powerful words me
too
me too that’s a big deal yeah that’s a
powerful statement there
that’s the double whammy you can sit and
do the me too
that’s it that’s your moment
man i’m gonna i’m gonna ask you maybe a
little bit more of a personal question
like have you built resilience for
yourself
in your journey
okay
i’ll tell you a story about a
shame storm
okay okay yeah usually there’s another
four-letter word on this i’ll tell you
something crazy um
so
early on when i was in treatment
i had a couple housemates that i was
feeling kind of close to you start kind
of dipping your toe in checking people
out maybe maybe they’re cool with me
maybe people want to be friends with me
you know you start
trying different things out and i will
never ever ever forget this
until the day that i die i was sitting
with someone that i really felt like we
were getting close and she said we’re
talking about family and i told her that
my brother was currently addicted to my
drug of choice and she goes what are the
odds of that that he would be he would
find the same thing that you’re on and i
said well no it makes sense because i
introduced him to it and and she stopped
and she looked disgusting she said i
have a brother i would never do that
and it still makes me a little emotional
because i’m still working too i’m still
human but all i needed to hear was like
oh me too or i’ve done something like
that
i have a brother i can’t imagine doing
that and it was just like a storm i mean
i was like this is no matter how much
progress i make this will always control
me
it doesn’t matter what i do how far i go
i will always carry this around with me
for the rest of my life
um
so in that moment i was able to just
think about
what other people had been telling me
that was working which was you are
enough i mean this was constant you’re
enough you’ve always been enough you’re
enough then you’ll always be enough so
i went into that mode and i had um
maybe it was you they said one of the
clinicians telling me that in that
moment and that’s what because i can’t
access that that self-compassion piece
we’re not there yet that’s light years
away at this point and that’s something
that was really helpful and now i can do
it for me some of the time
yeah
that’s it
well actually you just honestly modeled
resilience too by just kind of talking
through that story and
getting kind of caught up in it and i
think that takes a tremendous amount of
courage
but
that’s what weakens shame i think is
when we own our story the good the bad
the ugly i think that’s what
helps build our resilience always i
don’t know what do you what do you think
sam i think
it’s hard to speak to
resilience and things when we just
witnessed it and got to see
that you have compassion for yourself
that you trust two people
that you and i don’t know each other
well you and jason know each other for
years that
to sit down and sit in that with us i
just it’s an honor and i think talking
about it being an honor is important and
being able to say like thank you
for doing that is important in these
moments
past the educational piece
go grab a coffee later
that was fun we’ll let you guys have a
moment but um
sam i do feel i do feel like it’s
important like how how do you see our
curriculum kind of meeting people with
their shame and and how do we address it
kind of as an organization
yeah i think
the way that i’ve seen it done in groups
and i think you actually taught me how
to do it in these groups is kind of
facing it head-on is let’s bring it to
the surface
and then let’s remind you that you’re
good enough that you’re going to be
enough you have been and you will be
and i think we also implement this
beautiful thing of inner child work that
lets us um let your inner child know
that you were enough then too and lets
the grown-up version of you go back to
that inner child and bring it on this
journey of self-compassion and
self-acceptance i think is before
self-compassion we have to accept who we
are what we’ve done the child version of
ourselves what’s happened to us in order
to then move into that compassion piece
and i think our curriculum brings all of
that to surface
and then lets us sit with our clients
and say like you’re enough you’ve been
enough you’re always you know right
always this intrinsic value piece is so
hard
it’s a hard
if someone doesn’t have that intrinsic
value where do we even start like how to
treat other people how to treat yourself
forget it that that’s ground zero that
is like
the foundation of anything is are people
worth something not because of what they
do but because they exist yeah
i think all good treatment needs to
start right there right there that’s the
the core of this thing
yeah and
shane tells you
right everyone else has value like i can
see it in everybody else
it’s exactly right exactly except for
you it’s beautiful when we run the
groups and clients can look at each
other and say like i feel shame about
this and then we’re like can you say
that to anyone else in the room can you
say that to an inner child of yours
they’re like absolutely not no one else
deserves to hear that except for me
and that brings it to light when they
can be like oh
i also don’t deserve to hear that and
hearing those moments in groups and in
sessions when clients can say oh i also
don’t deserve that that’s when the light
switch changes for them and they can
start building that compassion and that
intrinsic value mm-hmm
[Music]
what i i have found it is amazing
um
it probably was me who told you you are
enough it is amazing just
um
making those efforts to um
begin to replace some of those messages
right because
ultimately the other thing that’s kind
of at the core of shame is that what we
really want is to be fully known and
fully accepted
and to have people be in relationship
with us anyway right like they accept us
even if they see all those things
and the other thing that i think um
we hold true and i actually was talking
about this with our with our leadership
on monday
um this last monday um
[Music]
they’re like
everybody we are all doing the best we
can when clients walk into our door that
hard story you just told about your
brother even in that moment
you were doing the best you could with
what you had
and um
[Music]
and when we can find that in people like
not only does people does all behavior
make sense in context
but people are really doing the best
they can even if it even if they’re
using and they’re in the basement of the
parents house and they’re going against
the rules and they’re violating their
probation or whatever might be happening
likely at the core they’re just
trying to do the best they can right and
that was a bid that was the bid there
maybe maybe we could be closer or i’d
have someone in this with me yeah that
behavior makes
sense yeah and then it’s easier to segue
into the forgiveness thing oh that
behavior makes sense i understand why i
did that at that time
when i hear you guys talking about this
i think of
moments in
individual sessions and in groups when
clients can say
that they
don’t blame their
younger self anymore that they blamed
themselves for this pain that they
are feeling and this when they can turn
around and say like i don’t blame myself
anymore like of course i was a 17 year
old kid struggling because of everything
around me like that makes sense to me
and it’s
i can’t talk about i tear up most of the
time talking about this but how
beautiful it is to watch a client
realize that sit in that and say like i
don’t i’m not mad at myself for that
anymore i can forgive my younger self
which inherently leads to forgiving
themselves now
touch and go as it comes up yeah as it
comes up because i’ve done that i’m like
i’m enough
and i believe it and it’s real and it’s
and i’m in it and it’s like it feels
great it feels great and then something
else might come up right something else
might come up oh my gosh we’re back
we’re back to square one that’s okay
that’s the deal i don’t know if there’s
ever a total resolution on
some of that we don’t need resolution we
see recovery that’s it and that feels a
little bit like the human condition of
right this is going to keep coming up
and there’s going to be tension between
like i feel bad about myself i feel bad
about this thing i feel poorly
and there’s tension there totally and
then leaning into that tension which is
the shame and then we can move on it
move on again and grow and have empathy
for ourselves again
that’s why i think we can throw out the
relapse prevention piece okay
what are you gonna do in your board or
what are you gonna do you know it’s like
people will actually get through those
things people will get through boredom
people will get through there’s
people are resilient
the whole relapse prevention could just
be like how do we how do we cope with
how do we wrestle with shame yeah
and that would be good enough that would
be actually the whole enchilada right
there yeah i think it’d be way more
successful than than the other thing you
talked about and i think it is what i
think we work pretty diligently to do
it it’s my it’s our focus i think as a
clinical team to say
we want to create the confidence to say
that when i bump into shame i know what
to do right
it doesn’t make it feel better in the
moment it doesn’t mean that like when
you are in the midst of
this or when you have an interaction
with somebody and
they hit your shame gremlin right where
you didn’t think it could be hit anymore
and you plunge into it um
we want to build a path a process an
understanding like okay i know i need to
reach out to people i can’t do this
alone i need to find my me too people
that can just sit with me and say i get
it i’ve been here too
full stop like there isn’t a solution
there’s just like
just having that empathy that that
person that can just sit in the dark
with you
um
and that’s what i think we are trying to
do is to say that right and i think
can can people walk out of peaks
and hopefully walk into a lower level of
care that’s older discussion and find a
way
to build have enough resilience to say
okay i know how to do this i can walk
this path i know because the other thing
shame lies all to me about anyway is
that i feel like i’m going to feel that
way forever this the moment the shame
gremlins come in i’m like this is it
i’m gonna i’m gonna feel like this
forever
um
and just finding that hope and that
process of being like okay i actually do
know
how to walk through this now i have a
path i have a process right
i think we as like the first people that
interact with our clients get to be the
people that show them that it’s there is
a me too there is
sitting with someone in the darkness
it’s not lonely and it’s not that which
then gives them the
courage
they build the courage to go out and
find other mewtwo people and find those
people for themselves and they get that
empowerment to be able to find it
because we’ve shown it to them yeah
so i think that’s part of that first
steps of it all is showing them that
they’re not alone in that
right
that’s why i love disclosure
i think
let’s go there like that’s why i think
it it’s so so important that
we are able to carefully and
thoughtfully disclose our experiences
there are times where it’s not helpful
for sure but like that’s an opportunity
to to help reduce or minimize or at
least just simmer down a little bit of
shame
worthwhile
absolutely worthwhile you know and
you also said something interesting
jason you said i am statements
are powerful and they are they have a
lot of power i am what
and that’s why i love the direction that
we’re moving because
i remember this too distinctly before
talking about shame walking into an old
school traditional meeting and they said
i said i’m a person in recovery and i
was really
just delighted yeah say that right and
they said we don’t say that here
i am what
i’m a person i am what oh i’m an
alcoholic i’m a drug addict our clients
are so much more than yeah yes
they are so much more than that and
that’s so reductive
and even that statement i am an addict
or an alcoholic if behaviors make sense
yeah
what does an addict do
use
what does an alcoholic do drug
there’s so much more than that i’m so
much more than that so
that’s my benefit and you are right from
the beginning like you you don’t become
more right
you are if you’re struggling with
addiction right now you’re still more
than your addiction it’s just really
masking it
so i think you know we’re kind of coming
up against the clock here but now you
shared kind of before
i want to take us out with with the
meditation you shared and this is the
type of thing we do like kind of a
little mindfulness to kind of walk
through all the time this sort of thing
um
so if you wouldn’t mind doing your
meditation and this is how we’ll kind of
end our episode love it okay
close your eyes
oh we’re doing it all right
we’re gonna go back to a time in your
mind
that you felt overwhelmed or totally
enveloped by shame
and then i want you to think about what
you needed to hear
after that moment
what you would have liked to hear after
that moment
and then
we’ll sit on that for a second
what you needed to hear in that moment
okay
now i want you to think about a person
or two people or three if it’s a real
bad shame spiral you were in
three people that you deeply respect
and admire
and then you can imagine them saying
that thing to you that you needed to
hear over
and over
and over
i’m enough that’s it i’m enough i’ve
always been enough i’ll always be enough
i’m enough
that’s it thank you for doing that
thank you what a what a great way to end
i do appreciate you both coming on the
show again i thank you for that
um
i’m jason friesman i’m signing off uh
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the other ones
and tick tock
and we’ll do this again in a couple
weeks thank you all and have a good one