Finding Peaks

Finding Peaks


Walking Through Shame, Resilience, and Self-Forgiveness

June 08, 2022


Episode 56
Walking Through Shame, Resilience, and Self-Forgiveness

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https://youtu.be/FPA5jN6GPD8

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Description

In this episode, we are joined by recurring guest Madelyn Padilla UN, and Samantha Archuleta MA, LPCC to talk about shame, resilience, and self-forgiveness.


Talking Points
  1. Reviewing the definition of shame
  2. Explaining the different ways shame can manifest in a person
  3. Reviewing the true meaning of resilience 
  4. Various coping strategies we help clients improve within our curriculum 


Quotes

“You just modeled resilience right here by telling your story and kind of getting caught up in it. That takes a tremendous amount of courage. But that’s what weakens shame, I think when we own our story, the good, the bad, and the ugly. That’s what helps build our resilience.”

– Jason Friesema, MA, LPC, LAC, Chief Clinical Officer

Episode Transcripts

Episode 56 Transcripts

empathy is knowing your own darkness


without that connection you don’t have


anything what’s the opposite of


addiction just freedom


hello and welcome to finding peaks i’m


jason friesma


chief clinical officer of peaks recovery


centers here in colorado springs and


denver


joining me today


madeline padilla admissions specialist


slash test driving co-host here with me


today guest co-host maybe yeah


and um


and samantha archuleta primary therapist


uh for


our iop program as well as uh doing some


work for our in residential program as


well


um thank you guys for uh joining me


today on finding peeks


um


you know i’m following up the last


couple times i’ve hosted uh we’ve talked


about grief


and so i wanted to keep it light today


and bring up


shame


if we could and resilience


and uh and even self-forgiveness if we


could but uh obviously i say that in


some just but


i’ll start with kind of talking about


what shame is um


and i learned a lot about shame in all


fairness from brene brown i actually had


the privilege of


uh being trained by her specifically in


and um it was a phenomenal conference


that she put on um


and i’m like


whoever this is i like what she’s


talking about but i don’t like the topic


um


and so


shame is pretty much defined as uh


feeling bad about who you are


and um


usually shame statements start with the


words i am um and then


uh and the thing about shame is we all


have it it’s ubiquitous every single


person on the planet pretty much with a


few exceptions probably


carry around shame we all have it


and um the tricky thing about shame is


it tells us uh that if we talk about it


if we expose it to the light


people want to flee from us they won’t


want to be in relationship with us


anymore um


and so we tend to hide it and then it is


that very hiding of the shame that


causes it to get worse


and it reinforces itself


and then frankly uh the reason i think


it’s such an important topic for us to


talk about is that i think it’s one of


the huge leading factors that lead


people into relapse either on substances


or with their mental health issues is


that they just are calling themselves a


piece of garbage all the time and when


and when that is the message that


somebody is telling themself all the


time then that is


uh how they’re going to begin to act and


behave


um


and so that’s just kind of my little uh


overview of what shame is uh and it sets


the tone for this


um and the other thing that i do want to


point out we all have it and then


usually when we talk about it we usually


feel even more of it for a minute and so


i just want to acknowledge that if if


people are watching at home or whatever


and we talk about shame well you might


experience a little bit of it but stay


till the end because we have a solution


for it um make friends with it make


friends with your shame uh invite it on


the couch take a seat but it’s sid chad


um it’s already talking to you so you


might as well invite it in


um anyway so there’s my intro


um samantha i’m gonna go to you first


and and my question about shame is


how do you see it showing up uh for you


and your clinical work with clients


often times with our clients i think


shame shows up as


any other emotion they’ll deflect anger


sadness frustration um


wanting to leave wanting to get out of


the situation because their shame is so


powerful telling them not to talk about


it yeah we’re gonna talk about


everything but this piece and then as


soon as you get to the shame with our


clients it’s almost like they melt into


recovery and treatment and


wanting to get better now because they


realize that


they we see them and that they’re not


worse worse off for being seen they’re


better off for being seen


yeah that’s that’s good no and you’re


right though if


there are there are there is data to


suggest that if you ask people a group


of people what are the most destructive


emotions that there are they will always


answer anger and fear every single time


and that is not the case at all


but no one ever that didn’t even make


the top five right but


shame by as far as the most destructive


absolutely yeah yeah but anger


close second would be fear so it makes


sense that that’s what you see the most


yeah


and i think you know i think you make a


good point that people do often mislabel


it and you said it i think right before


we came on the show here but people


often


say things are embarrassing but they’re


actually quite shameful


right like embarrassment um


[Music]


is uh


is an emotion that we experience it


feels the same like you flush you might


turn red or whatever but but really


embarrassment is categorized by it’s an


emotion


um that is fleeting like it goes away


very quickly with time and usually


you’re gonna laugh about it later you


know what i mean like if it turns out i


do this whole show and i’ve got a booger


in my nose


um i’m gonna have a i’m gonna feel


embarrassed i got a big one bat in the


cave


um


but i’m gonna feel embarrassed but it


could happen to anybody and honestly at


some point i’m gonna laugh and think


it’s actually kind of funny right if i


experience it as shame i’m just gonna be


like i am such an idiot uh because i


can’t even take care of my hygiene that


makes total sense you look at um


embarrassment guilt is is the amygdala


in the brain right and then you you you


look at someone that’s experiencing a


lot of shame it kind of is in the right


and it’s up in the front yeah


where does our sense of self come from


or our projection of ourself in the


future uh oh


we’re up there in the front so yeah it


totally makes sense that those would be


very different um consequences yeah to


both of those things


yes


guilt


guilt guilt’s what yeah you know it


comes and goes


you know what gil keeps us in the


parameters of society and it is very


good i think it’s constructive i don’t


i’m not gonna steal this it’s all good


because i know that that’s wrong and


then


with the shame piece it’s like this is


me i’m like the my core this is me a me


problem and it’s it’s not something that


comes and goes and that’s it’s like you


are that thing you know i get that on


the phone a lot from people too or they


say he has no shame he is shameless


he’s using drugs in my house he’s doing


this he’s doing that it’s like


he doesn’t have it he is it yeah that’s


what it is you know it’s not something


that he has it’s something that he is


and


when you put it like that people take a


step back


it’s not that’s not an accountability


issue that’s a


a place of being issue yes yeah when i


and i you are exactly right and i’ve


shared this on finding peace before but


you know i i’ve done a group on shame


and i love to ask like who in here feels


like they’re the worst person on the


planet and at least half the group


raises their hand


and i think you’re exactly right yes


they’re using drugs in your house not


because they don’t feel it but it’s


literally because oftentimes the very


things they’re telling themselves


they’re just reinforcing like if you if


i’m the worst person on the planet of


course i use drugs in my parents house


makes sense


right i’m the worst person on the planet


that’s what i’m calling myself and that


is a very shameful statement


and and not feeling shame is about


would be about like i’m trying to cause


harm to other people like i have malice


in my intent


and and i honest i’ve done this work for


single person


that i felt like has true malice that


they really are trying to be that


destructive you said something


in one of our um


in one of our trainings with admissions


you said people’s behaviors make sense


yeah and you say this to me all the time


people’s behaviors make sense


if you if you take that lens and you


look at everything through that lens the


behavior makes sense you can access way


more compassion for people


you


people do what they feel that they are


right and so


him hiding out in your basement you know


that totally makes sense yeah because


he’s because he’s the pos right because


he’s whatever yeah


people’s behaviors make sense that has


really helped me in a lot of situations


absolutely


so how do we build resilience with


people because that’s the opposite of


shame right is to to work on building


resilience


um within them and sam i’m going to


throw that question to you of course


i think it’s


compassion and empathy is the biggest


one which is so bernie brown of us


to say empathy is the it’s the light


that heals the dark part that we don’t


want people to see


empty for self empathy for others


sometimes when you can sit with another


person and you’re ashamed and they can


share their shame and you can have a


moment of you’re both in your shame and


it’s okay and you still value each other


care about each other and can


love each other after the fact


then there’s that empathy that we need


that we can heal and move forward with


love


yeah yeah


literally


compassion is it sit and suffering


that’s the breakdown you sit and you’re


suffering and you’re sitting together


together and that’s it right so


community i guess two powerful words me


too


me too that’s a big deal yeah that’s a


powerful statement there


that’s the double whammy you can sit and


do the me too


that’s it that’s your moment


man i’m gonna i’m gonna ask you maybe a


little bit more of a personal question


like have you built resilience for


yourself


in your journey


okay


i’ll tell you a story about a


shame storm


okay okay yeah usually there’s another


four-letter word on this i’ll tell you


something crazy um


so


early on when i was in treatment


i had a couple housemates that i was


feeling kind of close to you start kind


of dipping your toe in checking people


out maybe maybe they’re cool with me


maybe people want to be friends with me


you know you start


trying different things out and i will


never ever ever forget this


until the day that i die i was sitting


with someone that i really felt like we


were getting close and she said we’re


talking about family and i told her that


my brother was currently addicted to my


drug of choice and she goes what are the


odds of that that he would be he would


find the same thing that you’re on and i


said well no it makes sense because i


introduced him to it and and she stopped


and she looked disgusting she said i


have a brother i would never do that


and it still makes me a little emotional


because i’m still working too i’m still


human but all i needed to hear was like


oh me too or i’ve done something like


that


i have a brother i can’t imagine doing


that and it was just like a storm i mean


i was like this is no matter how much


progress i make this will always control


me


it doesn’t matter what i do how far i go


i will always carry this around with me


for the rest of my life


um


so in that moment i was able to just


think about


what other people had been telling me


that was working which was you are


enough i mean this was constant you’re


enough you’ve always been enough you’re


enough then you’ll always be enough so


i went into that mode and i had um


maybe it was you they said one of the


clinicians telling me that in that


moment and that’s what because i can’t


access that that self-compassion piece


we’re not there yet that’s light years


away at this point and that’s something


that was really helpful and now i can do


it for me some of the time


yeah


that’s it


well actually you just honestly modeled


resilience too by just kind of talking


through that story and


getting kind of caught up in it and i


think that takes a tremendous amount of


courage


but


that’s what weakens shame i think is


when we own our story the good the bad


the ugly i think that’s what


helps build our resilience always i


don’t know what do you what do you think


sam i think


it’s hard to speak to


resilience and things when we just


witnessed it and got to see


that you have compassion for yourself


that you trust two people


that you and i don’t know each other


well you and jason know each other for


years that


to sit down and sit in that with us i


just it’s an honor and i think talking


about it being an honor is important and


being able to say like thank you


for doing that is important in these


moments


past the educational piece


go grab a coffee later


that was fun we’ll let you guys have a


moment but um


sam i do feel i do feel like it’s


important like how how do you see our


curriculum kind of meeting people with


their shame and and how do we address it


kind of as an organization


yeah i think


the way that i’ve seen it done in groups


and i think you actually taught me how


to do it in these groups is kind of


facing it head-on is let’s bring it to


the surface


and then let’s remind you that you’re


good enough that you’re going to be


enough you have been and you will be


and i think we also implement this


beautiful thing of inner child work that


lets us um let your inner child know


that you were enough then too and lets


the grown-up version of you go back to


that inner child and bring it on this


journey of self-compassion and


self-acceptance i think is before


self-compassion we have to accept who we


are what we’ve done the child version of


ourselves what’s happened to us in order


to then move into that compassion piece


and i think our curriculum brings all of


that to surface


and then lets us sit with our clients


and say like you’re enough you’ve been


enough you’re always you know right


always this intrinsic value piece is so


hard


it’s a hard


if someone doesn’t have that intrinsic


value where do we even start like how to


treat other people how to treat yourself


forget it that that’s ground zero that


is like


the foundation of anything is are people


worth something not because of what they


do but because they exist yeah


i think all good treatment needs to


start right there right there that’s the


the core of this thing


yeah and


shane tells you


right everyone else has value like i can


see it in everybody else


it’s exactly right exactly except for


you it’s beautiful when we run the


groups and clients can look at each


other and say like i feel shame about


this and then we’re like can you say


that to anyone else in the room can you


say that to an inner child of yours


they’re like absolutely not no one else


deserves to hear that except for me


and that brings it to light when they


can be like oh


i also don’t deserve to hear that and


hearing those moments in groups and in


sessions when clients can say oh i also


don’t deserve that that’s when the light


switch changes for them and they can


start building that compassion and that


intrinsic value mm-hmm


[Music]


what i i have found it is amazing


um


it probably was me who told you you are


enough it is amazing just


um


making those efforts to um


begin to replace some of those messages


right because


ultimately the other thing that’s kind


of at the core of shame is that what we


really want is to be fully known and


fully accepted


and to have people be in relationship


with us anyway right like they accept us


even if they see all those things


and the other thing that i think um


we hold true and i actually was talking


about this with our with our leadership


on monday


um this last monday um


[Music]


they’re like


everybody we are all doing the best we


can when clients walk into our door that


hard story you just told about your


brother even in that moment


you were doing the best you could with


what you had


and um


[Music]


and when we can find that in people like


not only does people does all behavior


make sense in context


but people are really doing the best


they can even if it even if they’re


using and they’re in the basement of the


parents house and they’re going against


the rules and they’re violating their


probation or whatever might be happening


likely at the core they’re just


trying to do the best they can right and


that was a bid that was the bid there


maybe maybe we could be closer or i’d


have someone in this with me yeah that


behavior makes


sense yeah and then it’s easier to segue


into the forgiveness thing oh that


behavior makes sense i understand why i


did that at that time


when i hear you guys talking about this


i think of


moments in


individual sessions and in groups when


clients can say


that they


don’t blame their


younger self anymore that they blamed


themselves for this pain that they


are feeling and this when they can turn


around and say like i don’t blame myself


anymore like of course i was a 17 year


old kid struggling because of everything


around me like that makes sense to me


and it’s


i can’t talk about i tear up most of the


time talking about this but how


beautiful it is to watch a client


realize that sit in that and say like i


don’t i’m not mad at myself for that


anymore i can forgive my younger self


which inherently leads to forgiving


themselves now


touch and go as it comes up yeah as it


comes up because i’ve done that i’m like


i’m enough


and i believe it and it’s real and it’s


and i’m in it and it’s like it feels


great it feels great and then something


else might come up right something else


might come up oh my gosh we’re back


we’re back to square one that’s okay


that’s the deal i don’t know if there’s


ever a total resolution on


some of that we don’t need resolution we


see recovery that’s it and that feels a


little bit like the human condition of


right this is going to keep coming up


and there’s going to be tension between


like i feel bad about myself i feel bad


about this thing i feel poorly


and there’s tension there totally and


then leaning into that tension which is


the shame and then we can move on it


move on again and grow and have empathy


for ourselves again


that’s why i think we can throw out the


relapse prevention piece okay


what are you gonna do in your board or


what are you gonna do you know it’s like


people will actually get through those


things people will get through boredom


people will get through there’s


people are resilient


the whole relapse prevention could just


be like how do we how do we cope with


how do we wrestle with shame yeah


and that would be good enough that would


be actually the whole enchilada right


there yeah i think it’d be way more


successful than than the other thing you


talked about and i think it is what i


think we work pretty diligently to do


it it’s my it’s our focus i think as a


clinical team to say


we want to create the confidence to say


that when i bump into shame i know what


to do right


it doesn’t make it feel better in the


moment it doesn’t mean that like when


you are in the midst of


this or when you have an interaction


with somebody and


they hit your shame gremlin right where


you didn’t think it could be hit anymore


and you plunge into it um


we want to build a path a process an


understanding like okay i know i need to


reach out to people i can’t do this


alone i need to find my me too people


that can just sit with me and say i get


it i’ve been here too


full stop like there isn’t a solution


there’s just like


just having that empathy that that


person that can just sit in the dark


with you


um


and that’s what i think we are trying to


do is to say that right and i think


can can people walk out of peaks


and hopefully walk into a lower level of


care that’s older discussion and find a


way


to build have enough resilience to say


okay i know how to do this i can walk


this path i know because the other thing


shame lies all to me about anyway is


that i feel like i’m going to feel that


way forever this the moment the shame


gremlins come in i’m like this is it


i’m gonna i’m gonna feel like this


forever


um


and just finding that hope and that


process of being like okay i actually do


know


how to walk through this now i have a


path i have a process right


i think we as like the first people that


interact with our clients get to be the


people that show them that it’s there is


a me too there is


sitting with someone in the darkness


it’s not lonely and it’s not that which


then gives them the


courage


they build the courage to go out and


find other mewtwo people and find those


people for themselves and they get that


empowerment to be able to find it


because we’ve shown it to them yeah


so i think that’s part of that first


steps of it all is showing them that


they’re not alone in that


right


that’s why i love disclosure


i think


let’s go there like that’s why i think


it it’s so so important that


we are able to carefully and


thoughtfully disclose our experiences


there are times where it’s not helpful


for sure but like that’s an opportunity


to to help reduce or minimize or at


least just simmer down a little bit of


shame


worthwhile


absolutely worthwhile you know and


you also said something interesting


jason you said i am statements


are powerful and they are they have a


lot of power i am what


and that’s why i love the direction that


we’re moving because


i remember this too distinctly before


talking about shame walking into an old


school traditional meeting and they said


i said i’m a person in recovery and i


was really


just delighted yeah say that right and


they said we don’t say that here


i am what


i’m a person i am what oh i’m an


alcoholic i’m a drug addict our clients


are so much more than yeah yes


they are so much more than that and


that’s so reductive


and even that statement i am an addict


or an alcoholic if behaviors make sense


yeah


what does an addict do


use


what does an alcoholic do drug


there’s so much more than that i’m so


much more than that so


that’s my benefit and you are right from


the beginning like you you don’t become


more right


you are if you’re struggling with


addiction right now you’re still more


than your addiction it’s just really


masking it


so i think you know we’re kind of coming


up against the clock here but now you


shared kind of before


i want to take us out with with the


meditation you shared and this is the


type of thing we do like kind of a


little mindfulness to kind of walk


through all the time this sort of thing


um


so if you wouldn’t mind doing your


meditation and this is how we’ll kind of


end our episode love it okay


close your eyes


oh we’re doing it all right


we’re gonna go back to a time in your


mind


that you felt overwhelmed or totally


enveloped by shame


and then i want you to think about what


you needed to hear


after that moment


what you would have liked to hear after


that moment


and then


we’ll sit on that for a second


what you needed to hear in that moment


okay


now i want you to think about a person


or two people or three if it’s a real


bad shame spiral you were in


three people that you deeply respect


and admire


and then you can imagine them saying


that thing to you that you needed to


hear over


and over


and over


i’m enough that’s it i’m enough i’ve


always been enough i’ll always be enough


i’m enough


that’s it thank you for doing that


thank you what a what a great way to end


i do appreciate you both coming on the


show again i thank you for that


um


i’m jason friesman i’m signing off uh


like us on facebook instagram


the other ones


and tick tock


and we’ll do this again in a couple


weeks thank you all and have a good one