Episode 149 Stillness Speaks: Listening to the Body with Dr. Ron Schwenkler
Watch Now https://youtu.be/YDcAh1rCxxA Listen Now Description

In this episode of Finding Peaks, Chris Burns is joined by Dr. Ron Schwenkler, Clinical Director at Mind Spa in Denver, to share in an invaluable conversation surrounding trauma and the quiet ways it can control life. From looking into different cutting-edge models to taking a moment to focus on the importance of individualized care, Dr. Ron and Chris engage in a powerful conversation that you will not want to miss. Thank you, Dr. Ron, for sharing your expertise and insights, as well as reexamining how we not only define trauma but also how we can treat it. For more information on Dr. Ron or Mind Spa, visit mindspadenver.com.

Talking Points Introduction to the Show Giving flowers to Dr. Ron and Mind Spa Get to know Mind Spa Dr. Ron on trauma Resourcing Exploring different modalities What is a memory Getting present 12-step and trauma Be the mamal Dr. Ron’s personal experience Treating concussions Looking into Ketamine Failing medications How do people recover Getting still in your body Fitness and movement in treatment Listening to your body mindspadenver.com Final thoughts Quotes ““It’s not about what you are going to stop, it’s what you are going to start.”” – Dr. Ron Schwenkler Episode Transcripts





Episode -149- Transcripts

Yeah. But when we are leaning parasympathetically, then we can approach that which we’ve been avoiding forever much more gracefully, with more courage, with more fortitude. Yeah. You know, giving this thing back, being of service does something with purpose for people early in recovery. That’s pretty astonishing. At least it did for me. I was like, well, [ __ ] if I could be a sponsor, you’re calling me. You need me. Now I’m need, valued, seen, heard in a place that I never thought was possible. No matter what memory or thing you think of, that’s not powerful enough to change reality. And that that is a very liberating concept. Yeah.
Hey everybody and welcome to another amazing and exciting episode of Finding Peaks. yours truly, President and founder Chris Burns. Really grateful today to be joined by a colleague and a good friend, Dr. Ron Schwinkler. Grateful to have you here, sir. So good to be here. Thank you so much for having me. Absolutely. Ron is the uh clinical director over at Mindpa as well as a trauma psychologist doing a lot of cutting edge things over at Mindpa. But before we get into that, I just want to talk to the viewers a little bit about uh the relationship we have with Mindpa. Um, we have a lot of folks in our inpatient setting that are near and dear to our hearts. We get them referred out to the appropriate places. Denver Mindpa is one of our community partners. And I just happen to be doing something that I do often. About 6 weeks ago, I I have coffee with alumni. It’s one of the greatest joys in my life, in my career. And I’m walking around with a friend of mine. We’re having a cup of coffee and we’re at the park over by uh the trail head program that we have over there. And he starts to tell me about this guy named Ron that he’s working with. And I’m like, “Oh, yeah. Cool stuff, man. Outpatients going well.” He’s like, “No, this is really different.” Um, and I saw in that moment that not only was he seen, valued, and heard at peaks recovery, but the next step was just the same. And it meant the absolute world to me to know that an outpatient provider like yourself and Denver Mindpar showing up in the community for people like my friends who went through peaks. So, before we get going, I just want to thank you for the work that you guys do. What we’re going to learn today is what they do at Denver Mind Spa is absolutely extraordinary, cutting edge, and more than anything puts the client first. So, thank you so much, Ron, for what you do professionally, personally, and most certainly in the community. Sir, it’s awesome. Yes, sir. Absolutely. So, we want to talk a little bit today. I want to start out talking a little bit about how did Denver Mind Spa come to be? Um, I know there’s been some iterations of it. You have some partners. Sam is We’ve had Sam on the show before, but how did you guys develop Denver Mind Spa? Uh Sam and I met I was doing a a keynote presentation for Comeback Yoga and he was in the audience and I was up on stage and you know it’s like our eyes met and like it was love at first sight. It was like he was very very excited about some of the stuff I was talking about in my conceptualization of trauma, you know, um that incorporates the mind, the brain, the nervous system and the body, right? um and he approached me and we just started the conversation and one of my um passions is this idea idea of layered intervention and so that’s how I do trauma processing is we do layers of resourcing and you know that comes off an idea um one it comes from a trauma theory called comprehensive resource model that focuses on resourcing as the primary rather than just the thing that you do when someone is abreacting or struggling, right? And so we use resourcing to optimize a person so they can approach the intolerable affect or the trauma or you know whatever whatever you want to call it. And so as I was talking about this layered intervention, you know, it’s like this idea of like well trauma doesn’t happen on a singular context. Mhm. It doesn’t just happen. Trauma symptoms don’t happen at home or right they they become generalized and it infiltrates a person’s life. And so the idea is it’s like well if that’s how trauma behaves that’s how we should behave and we should be providing interventions on a multicontextual manner. Mhm. Um, and you know, he, you know, that conversation just blossomed so naturally between us and you know, Sam has he’s so passionate, you know, um, and so he just he just took off and ran and kept putting the pieces together and and then we hooked it all up. I love that. I I you may be one of the first people, at least Sam and you, one of the first people you talk about kind of this multi-layered approach. How do you begin to you know because the idea what I’ve experienced a lot in my life before I got to seatic experiencing therapy which is resourced along the way as we go in with our therapist we sit down they ask us a few questions we get into this thing that really hurts and we’re not resourced whatsoever but on the back end they say okay tonight you could probably do some journaling you know get into your breath work make sure you do your meditation connect with your peers how do you begin to to do that in that multi-layered process throughout the course of care instead of kind of on on the back end. That’s a big that’s a big question. So I mean I think part of it is just our presuppositions like philosophically resourcing is not an add-on. It is a fundamental part to processing. So when we’re processing like some people look at well we want to process the trauma to optimize and it’s like well sure but but why not optimize what we can to help processing right? And so it’s we can get more into how that unfolds, but it’s um we just see it as a fundamental part. And so some people come into the you know uh to meet us and they know they want TMS or they know they want ketamine and then we you know we we meet them where they’re at and um we make sure that all the eyes are dotted and tees are crossed. They’re meeting with the psychiatrist to fulfill those interventions that it’s a legitimate fit, right? Other people just know that they have problems and they don’t know where to begin and they often find their way to me or get referred to me from our psychiatrist or ketamine nurse. Um, and we we start that process out. And you know, when we’re going to do a piece of trauma work, it’s always resourcing first, right? Whether that’s just a base layer of appraisal skills, which is like notice what’s happening in reality around us right now, or breathing techniques, visualization techniques, you know, attachment um techniques to allow them to feel physiologically safe in the room, which is different than psychologically, right? Because when we are when we’re leaning parasympathetically and we’re physiologically safe and we don’t I don’t really like that word because there’s so much stuff connected to safety. Yeah. But when we are leaning parasympathetically then we can approach that which we’ve been avoiding forever much more gracefully with more courage with more fortitude. Yeah. To hold hands with the trauma. Like if people aren’t holding hands and getting in touch with the intolerable affect that moment in the trauma when they couldn’t bear it and that’s what set off all the survival mechanisms if you ain’t getting to that point you’re you’re kind of doing trauma work. Yeah. But you got to get at that point and it’s very paradoxical because the only way to really get there fully we believe is through resourcing first. Yeah. You can’t just ask someone, “Hey, would you please consider the worst possible thing that’s ever happened in your life?” Yeah. And let’s chat about it. Like, no. That goes like, but I I love what you said there because I hadn’t had any of that experience in my recovery till about 10 years in. I had done a lot of talk therapy, some EMDR, and there’s some resourcing that goes on with a good EMDR therapist for sure. A good a good EMDR therapist. Otherwise, I just hook you up and get going. Um but something that was so brilliant and I was like why the [  ] why are we doing this? I sat down with Paulie Feedler. She’s right down the road here and she’s been doing um sematic experiencing therapy for about 30 years. And I remember I was like she’s like all right well let’s do this. And I’m like all right I’m ready. And she’s like I just want you to close your eyes. There you go. Sit back. I want you to feel the earth energy coming up under your feet. I want you to open up your top chakra. Let that life energy in. And I’m sitting there thinking this is dumb. This is dumb. And then before you know it, I’m like, cool as a cucumber, right? She’s like, how do you feel? I’m like, Paulie, I don’t know if we’re going to be able to do any trauma work because I actually feel really good. So, that’s a great point. Sometimes when that happens, you know, because it’s it’s almost like a titration issue, right? People live their lives in such a stress vortex at best, trauma vortex at worst that even when they start allowing their body to remember this is what it’s like to rest, to be neutral, to be well, we I’ve spent sessions just allowing that to unfold. Wow. And then they get more acquainted. They build more mastery with the breathing, with the visualization, with the app appraisal skills. I call appraisal skills. Then then once they practice that, then we can get into doing the trauma processing. Mhm. And do you resource every time, every session in one way or another? Okay. It might just be that. So I want you to notice what’s happening right around us right now in this moment in reality, right? that there’s no guns, knives, or fangs out. Yeah. Which means you’re safe, right? Which means you are secure in this moment. And no matter what memory or thing you think of, that’s not powerful enough to change reality. And that that is a very liberating concept. Yeah. Right. That like I’ll ask people, “What’s a memory?” And they’re like, “Well, it’s a representation of something that happened.” I’m like, “No, no, no.” Yes. And what actually is a memory? And it’s like we get into it. It’s just like it’s a microscopic event happening in a brain that triggers vibration, maybe electricity signaling to other neuro neurons through neuropathways that release hormones and neurotransmitters microscopically. But that will change a whole person’s life. That’s wild. And when we when that’s like very resourcing in and of itself. And so I’m talking them through that in the moment. Just like no matter what microscopic event happens in your brain, that doesn’t change that you’re sitting in that chair and there’s no threat. Now, it could be stressful, sure, but there’s no threat. And that reminder is really, really helpful. And I love how you broke it apart in two parts where there’s this psychological readiness but this physiological unreadiness or unwillingness. So I would go in I’d say no I’m ready to go but my body is just going crazy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that’s where I think you know Bessel Vandercock and Peter Lavine from Sematic Experience. I mean these these people really have driven the point home that the body keeps the score. The body bears the burden. Yeah. You know, and so we have to allow the body to remember or learn because sometimes some people trauma starts from the womb. Yeah. you know, and so we have literally it’s it’s about allowing their nervous system to recognize that we can let down our guard and step into some of these breathing techniques or visualization techniques to optimize in order to then approach the thing we’ve been avoiding. Yeah. I had a lot of It reminds me of when I started jiu-jitsu. Even in my first year, I’d have a 70-year-old on top of me beating the brakes off of me and he’s like, “Calm down, Chris. Calm down.” I’m like, “Steve, my brain’s telling me to calm down, but my body’s not doing it. My body’s in this fight orflight. It feels like it’s getting attacked.” And I’m like, “Cool off. Cool off, but it’s just not responding well.” And it it took I bet it took longer than most folks going in there for my body to finally just just settle down and and know that it’s it’s safe. Yeah. You also bring up a really good point. It’s kind of echoleian with this idea of like psychological time as well. If you can get people in the present moment in your office or at Denver Mind Spawn, be where their feet are, there’s no suffering, potentially, right? Yeah. Because that’s huge. Yeah. That’s a big thing. Yeah. Because I love what Echer Tol talks about the psychological time and if I’m in the past and I’m in the future tends to be pretty unsteady. But if I can ground in the moment and I can be here with you, Ron, I don’t have to think about what happened yesterday. I don’t have to think about what I got going on after this. I can just be in this space with you, which is really nice. Yes, I love that. And that so this this is a huge discussion because the brain is always going to optimize the nervous system and the brain are always going to optimize survival over expansion. The key element to trauma or one of the key elements to trauma is the brain is is going to prioritize the trauma memory. That’s wild. which then for survival reasons, right, this is very important, but it’s then takes us away from the present moment, right? Because we’re always wrestling with that internal system. We’re wrestling with managing the internal landscape, which then sends bottom-up messages that, well, I’ve got to be aware of all the environmental triggers and be on guard, hypervigilance, startle response, all that, you know, that I miss the present moment. So the present moment even isn’t even an option for some people that have passed a certain threshold of trauma. You got to deal with that in order to reappropriate sure the the the trauma memory and put it in its rightful place. So this idea when clinicians come in and somebody’s coming off of you know um some intense trauma, some mental health stuff, potentially some substance use, this idea of like get present, that’s not even an option for folks. I don’t even ask that. I’m like, tell me why you aren’t present because there’s a good reason why. Right? Like we we don’t want to judge trauma symptoms. Trauma symptoms are survival mechanisms. Yeah. Like like there the every every trauma symptom if we go down the PCL5 or like it’s it’s it’s not hard to see it as a survival mechanism, right? But we judge the trauma symptoms and we don’t let them teach us why they’re so important. Right? Because a person isn’t going to wake up one morning be like, you know what, I think I want to screw everything up in my life, right? And start developing this symptom, right? Which ultimately will lead to self-centeredness at best and narcissism at worst, right? Like that’s not how people work. Like they develop into the symptoms for survival reasons. Yeah. And so a great question might be, you know, what was the reason you couldn’t be present? Right. Right. That’s tell me why it’s so hard to be in the room and be still. And they’ll say things like, well, if I’m still, then something bad might happen. Like I learned very early on that I had to be on guard all the time. It’s like, that makes a lot of sense. Was there a good reason why you had to be on guard? Yeah. My dad is an alcoholic. My mom was angry all the time. And da da d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d d. It’s like that’s a good reason for a kid to be on guard. Yeah. Oh, you had a you you everything you were on patrol and everything was fine and then everything wasn’t fine because there was a danger close bomb. That’s a good reason to not let down your guard. Yeah. Right. There’s all sorts of good reasons that these symptoms are there. We don’t need to judge them. We just need to be curious about it. I love that word curious and non-judgmental. You know, how do you guys feel about and this wasn’t part of the but I want to talk a little bit. Yeah. How do you guys feel about referring people to 12step? Because it comes it kind of comes into conflict a little bit with that because you carry some of that heavy stuff and we talk about it in a negative way like this is bad, I’m selfish, I’m dishonest, I do these things, but to your point, a lot of that is trauma resilience. And so, how do you navigate with folks that are checking into the 12step program? It’s been something new as of the last five or 10 years where people are like, I don’t know if I want to do that. Prior to that, it was just status quo. Yeah. How do you guys feel about folks that are struggling with alcohol or struggling with a substance doing their trauma? Do you guys refer to 12 steps? I’m a big fan of 12 steps, the traditional 12 steps. There’s over the last decade plus, there’s been kind of a Buddhist movement of 12 steps. Addiction is a different beast, right? And you know, I think a lot the coorbidity between addiction and trauma is through the roof. So, it would be folly to say, “No, you shouldn’t do 12 steps.” No, you need to get into that and you need to start and finish it, not just do five of the steps. Absolutely. Yeah, I always love that. The stat the stats are incredible, right? Like if you do the 12 steps, then you know you’re going to have a certain amount of um of sobriety. If you become what is it? If you get a sponsor, that that equation jumps like 10%. if you become a sponsor that those numbers like jump another 20%. So it’s this idea of see one do one teach one that is so important from everything from martial arts to sobriety. Yeah. I love it. Good. 12 steps are important. Yeah. I love it as well and I love it in in in compilation with um you know some really good clinical. I I think that helps support it and you know I think folks are starting to see it clearly now and I think it’s opened up more in those 12step rooms. This idea that yes, you should get a therapist. Yes, you should get a sponsor and work the steps. And I think bigger than anything with the 12step program, specifically folks who struggle with shame. Um, you know, giving this thing back, being of service does something with purpose for people early in recovery. That’s pretty astonishing. At least it did for me. I was like, well, [  ] if I could be a sponsor, you’re calling me. You need me. Now I’m need, valued, seen, heard in a place that I never thought was possible. Agreed. Yeah. I mean, I’m just such a big fan of the classic virtues as well as we, you know, the VA values in general. And I think service is just classic and modern. Yeah. And, you know, I think, you know, I think especially for men, like we want to be of service a lot. Yeah. You know, um, but certainly with addiction, it’s not just about what you’re stopping, it’s about what you’re going to start. And service is a great thing to start when you’re struggling with addiction. And that community piece is huge is absolutely huge. That’s one of our saying at Mind Spa is like be a good mammal. Like we are mammals before humans, right? Like fundamentally at our core, we are mammals. So practice, you know, what do mammals need? Community touch, right? They they they need, you know, have that direction. Yeah. Yeah. No, that’s huge. and you’re no um it’s not foreign to you trauma. You’ve walked through a a multitude of traumas yourself. I think you had a motorcycle accident. Two motorcycle accidents. Yeah. Well, how what happened? So, and this was, you know, my my unfortunate prized education experience were these traumas, right? So, I have I have two master’s degrees. Well, I have an undergraduate degree that focused on religious studies or cultural studies. some philosophy, a master’s degree in counseling education, and then I went to DU to get another master’s in clinical psychology and a doctorate in clinical psychology. You’re busy. So, we we moved from from out east to um here to go to DU in 2012. And a month before my program, I’m riding my bicycle and I got hit by a truck from behind going 65 miles an hour. Holy [ __ ] How fast were you going? You know, whatever 20, right? like whatever 16 17 but I got I got roadkilled and um I I mean there’s so many different parts right trauma memory is very succinct right there’s all these different details again for survival mechanisms evolutionary mechanisms but I ended up um I had in that one year from that to a year later I had five surgeries so I had a surgery every three months um excuse me four surgeries every three months and I was doing my first year of my doctorate program with my helmet cracked. So, with a concussion, having a surgery every three months, anesthesia stuff, um, and trying to get through this doctor program with three kids. Wow. Um, and then we were having another one on the way. And this was a year and a month later. I was on my Harley on I25. No. And I and I just finished I picked it up from the shop that morning and it was like my gangster dream bike. Oh, and it was done. No, it was done. I get on it and I ride to a motorcycle training course. It was always good to take. I’ve been riding for a long time, but and then that’s done and I get on my bike from that and I’m I get on I25 for like several minutes and I get hit by a a kid on a crotch rocket going over 100 miles an hour from behind again. Holy smokes. So I and and that accident was way worse than my first accident. So I had like first and second degree burns. My ankle was turned around 180 degrees. I spent days in the hospital. I slid over 100 feet on the interstate. I went from the right lane, flopped over to the mid the center lane. And usually on on motorcycles, it’s it’s not the first hits that kills you. It’s like it’s the the person that’s not paying attention that runs over you that gets you. And so I was just waiting to get very peacefully to die. And that was because of all the trauma work I did from the first one. So my first one I was terrified. I thought the guy when he got out of the car I remember looking at him and he reached from behind like this and I started screaming, “Don’t kill me. Don’t kill me.” Because I thought he was going to shoot me because I was on like a back road. Terrified. Totally illogical. Yeah. Trauma mind survival, right? And that I mean I just I just did so much trauma work with that first one that when the second one happened I knew exactly what was happening. Like the first thing that came to me is mother I can’t believe this is happening again. Like oh my gosh the second thing was let thy will be done. I remember saying that word that phrase and I just relaxed and I waited to get hit again and I was fine. It was one of the most peaceful experiences of my life. Wow. Because of all the trauma work that came from the first one. And then I was sliding and sliding and I wasn’t getting hit. I was just like like starfishing mothers on and stuff. Just the best. I remember the ground. I had a little brain bucket on. I didn’t even have full and I remember being like, “Well, that sounds good.” So, I tucked my made a choice in the moment to chuck my chin to so more of the helmet can take I didn’t have one mark on my face and I slid on my chest for over 100 feet on the interstate. Wow. Just because of the trauma work and being able to like be okay with life and death. So, when the next bad thing happened, I was really okay. Like, it was the test of all tests. Wow. So, I wouldn’t trade those unfortunate educations for anything except what it was really hard on my family. Yeah. Especially my oldest son. How long were you in the hospital after that? I was in the hospital for 4 days. Jeez. After that. And how long removed from the previous accident? One year and a month and then I had another surgery. So, I had ended up having six surgeries in 18 months and then a spine surgery five five or six years later. Jeez. on my neck. Did you have to fuse anything? No, we got a disc replacement. Okay. Wow. Yeah, that’s huge. That’s huge, man. How does your body feel today? Working out five times a week. Doing your thing. You got emotions lotion. Emotions lotion. You got to move it. It’s that old saying, cowboy saying, either get busy get busy living or get busy dying. Like, you know, I mean, there’s a lot that helps me. Yeah. continue to do the trauma work, continue to do the service, the the the values work. Um, but also, you know, HRT, you know, I became clinically depressed um after the first one, which was really frustrating to me because No, after the second one, I became clinically depressed because it it the the second one didn’t seem traumatic for some reason. And it was like up top cuz cuz all of the work and but man I just I was clinically depressed after that. Didn’t have any nightmares. No, you know the trauma responses were very little and the depression was severe. That’s what sunk in. And I was talking to a vet. I was doing a session and he was talking about his depression and Zoloft and I’ve you know I was on tons of different medications trying to get at this depression and he’s like dude get your blood work done and he was he’s like I got that’s that’s what changed my life is my blood work. My my testosterone was at 68. Yours was holy smokes. Wow. And so then, you know, then I started, you know, HRT, um, and just consistent blood work ever since. Um, you know, really monitoring my testosterone levels, take a couple peptides, and so yeah, I mean, I have a headache every day and my joints hurt every day, but still working out. Did you end up getting a TBI as a result of that? Yeah. And and you had concussions as well, right? Yeah. And I also played rugby in college for many years, so I’ve had a long history of concussions, but Yeah. How did you treat that? Now, I know you did the trauma work, but how did you treat the TBI and the concussion side of things? Um, at that point in time, I didn’t know about ketamine. You know, I I did a lot of psychedelics when in the 90s when, you know, I before I got into mental health. I’ve been in mental health for 29 years. So, it was just kind of grinding through and building my own relationship with the concussion. So, I would say, you know, without any medical intervention, we’re really good at diagnosing concussions, but like what do you do for concussions? Well, now we know like Hbot and ketamine can really help lower that inflammation. But you got to build a relationship with concussions and get honest about it and and like stop looking at it as the enemy rather as your brain is doing everything it can to help you survive and it’s injured and just because we’re injured that doesn’t mean we’re weak, right? People get that I feel different so that means I’m weak and people but we have to see it as an injury. like you took a hit and now the brain doesn’t work as well as it used to and so we’re gonna find workarounds but acceptance and patience is mandatory. Mhm. Like we can’t you know so many people are so upset that concussions are life changing. I’m my life is still changed from my concussions. I can’t remember names to save my life. It takes Apparently I can’t either. So, so we have to, you know, it’s like we got to stop judging it and say like this is this is my shortcomings now. This doesn’t change my character as a human being. I’m I’m still working hard with my values. But I’m different now. Yeah. It’s like that acceptance piece, too. Acceptance is everything. Whether it’s trauma, concussion, all of it. Yeah. What would you do today if somebody came into your clinic at Denver Mind Spa and they had Exactly. what happened to you happened to them. How would you have treat would you treat that differently with the modalities that you guys have today and how would that look? Yeah, I mean if I could build a a concussion treatment plan um it would be you know meeting with the therapist getting the resources like we got to get the framing of how life has changed and then um hyperbaric oxygen treatment um I think you know 1.6 six atmospheric pressures like the optimal concussion um pressure and um ketamine um to reduce inflammation. And so we do ketamine um start at very low doses, get a person feeling comfortable with it. Um and it’s an incredible anti-inflammatory. We have a nurse present the whole time. It’s IV, so if there’s any
reaction to it, we can shut the drip off and and get the person, you know, resourced and stabilized. But it’s it’s pretty amazing intervention, you guys. Hyperbaric chamber, ketamine, Denver Mind Spa. I haven’t I think um All Points North has a hyperaric chamber, but it’s not as cool as your guys’. Yeah, we got a little UFO. That one is sweet. So cool. And it goes back to where we started, right? that layered intervention. It’s like it’s it’s not just about the trauma work. It’s not just about the change of life work. It’s not just about the ketamine or the oxygen. It’s all of them happening at at a similar time frame. Yeah. I love that like multi-pronged approach that you guys carry out there. I love that you carry it out by way of the just providing astonishing client care. You know, insurance doesn’t pay for HBOT, you know, but you guys have the cutting edge HBOT because, you know, it informs healing for the people that you get to serve. That’s what I like a lot about you guys is you have these extra It’s like it’s like us with the movement team and the hikes and all this stuff like insurance wouldn’t pay for that for a second, but it’s like there’s these quality of life and connecting components that can really help serve people and I think you guys do that really really extraordinarily. It’s really cool. Yes, man. Yeah, you guys are doing a great job, too. And it’s just Yeah, we can do a whole other segment on insurance. Yeah, insurance. How how it is organized crime. I met some It is organized, right? We Why do we want to keep people sick and not pay the people getting people better for all their efforts, right? Privatize the profit. We socialize the expense. Enough said. Yeah. Is there any something I’ve been running into lately as we begin to start to conceptualize, you know, we have Triricare, Tri West coming on, you know, we refer out for ketamine right now, but one of the things that’s kind of buted up against kind of the substance use side of things is, or maybe I should ask you, are there a lot of contraindications for folks who have struggled with substances as it pertains to the modality of especially, you know, I mean, I I am not an expert in that realm. Um, I have heard incredible stories about how ketamine has helped curb a lot of addiction processes as well as Hiaawasa and some of these other Ibagane obviously. Um, but there are some interventions that just they just are amazing about what they do with that desire, that addiction mindset and it gets people into wise mind real quickly. Mhm. Um I think it’s you know um what’s the what’s the phrase? You know discernment is the better part of valor. So like you’ll know let’s be really thoughtful about it. Let’s be really thoughtful about your addiction process. And if you know this could be a good idea. Um let’s do the research. like people like there’s no excuse not to know anymore with with the advent of AI and even before that there wasn’t an excuse because everything was searchable but now it’s even easier to to understand the scientific data right like all you got to do is type in the right question and it’s like you get footnotes and everything so people need to educate themselves yeah and and feel good about it while working with the right professional yeah I love your approach on that even though you may not be an expert on the substance use side of things the outcome comes for substance use folks for traditional models of therapy are abysmal. And so I’m a big a big fan. Now maybe in my first, you know, six months of recovery at 22, ketamine might not have been a thing, but it could have alleviated a lot of the symptomology that’s wrapped around kind of this substance use and mental health process. And so I love getting curious, being open-minded, getting to know our clients, but certainly not throwing the baby out with the bath water. Not. No, I mean there’s so I mean literally when I hear when I say I have heard miracle stories and more miracle stories than than I did ketamine and it screwed my whole life up. Like I’ve actually never heard that story. I haven’t heard that. Yeah. But like I mean it’s just so important and we you know the psychedelic conference was just last week here in Denver. spent a week there and it’s like you know I have I spoke to firefighters, professional hockey players, professional football players, warriors, you know, dude from special forces in the United Kingdom to you know team guys here and it’s like literally miracles happening because of you know us being able to think outside the box and allow the psychedelic movement to get some legs. Yeah, I agree with you wholeheartedly. We went and sponsored a a dinner up there where Dr. There’s a lot of doctors. Um I’m forgetting her name, but she put on um a wonderful dinner and these people that are coming up and speaking life into these modalities are brilliant. They’re doctors. A lot of anesthesiologists are getting into this thing with the ibagane and things like that. And I was just blown away. And to your point, I think we get it misconstrued with like a khole in addiction and this ketamine infusion therapy. Well said. Yeah. Perfect. And we get we get mired in that. And so did I. And I had never done any of the ketamine on the outside, but I’d be like, “Oh, that’s bad, you know, and it’s not good or bad.” And then there’s some some hard stories where it was used as chemical restraints and that, you know, was tragic, but it’s like, you know, I’ve never said this before, but there’s hard stories in the birthing process. That doesn’t mean we stop having babies, right? Like moms and and and children perish just in the natural order of things. Like it’s tragic, but we we don’t want to let the tragedy That’s the negative bias, right? we over prioritize the negative than what’s happening in reality around us. Um and certainly we need the science to back all of it up. Yeah. Um but the ancients have been doing it for a long time with zero science. Yeah. And it’s been working fine with very little like mental unwwellness at the same time. I love that too. And being able to explore that with individuals. I see folks all the time, Ron, that are their 10th treatment in it’s the same kind of treatment and you know there’s treatment centers in our environment in the United States that you actually have to have failed five treatment programs to get into because it’s the real behavior modification and they weaponize your mind around that. Yeah. It’s like holy smoke that’s insane, right? That’s so that’s saying like you know I mean it’s almost like they’re facilitating the rock bottom which sometimes is really important but like you need to keep failing right so it’s not just like which will will ultimately drive a person towards I am weak and broken and insurance works the same way like in order to get TMS coverage you need to have five or three failed medications and it’s like right so what happens after a person there’s two thing two major things that happen when people start failing medications. One is the next medication doesn’t work as effectively statistically as the first and the third works worse than the second. So that’s that came out of the stars research. I think it’s called the stars research paper or whatever. But also they just say man if these medications aren’t working for me I must be really broken. That’s the second big thing that happens, right? And so the medication chemically is not as effective and people start very quickly leaning towards there must be something really wrong with me if these interventions aren’t working. Yeah. And like that’s that’s bad. Shame on shame. Yeah. It’s terrible. And and what I’ve realized, and I’m not a doctor by any means, but watching folks titrate on and off of these SSRI, okay, Prozac didn’t work. Here comes Alex Pro. try this to watch that individual try and sit in a group process when they’re just like feeling so unwell, you know, those things are pretty hard on your body. Yeah. And then, you know, I mean, I get it, right? But, you know, psychiatrists don’t like it when I say this, but it’s it is educated dart throwing. It is like there’s there’s a certain symptom criteria and that leans a person towards a decision-making model to suggest this medication or that. Then let’s see how that goes for a while for a month or two is you know that’s often said to people and if not then we’ll change it up. Yeah. That’s like it can take months to get off medication or a month month to get on. Well and now by this point they’re in their IOP program. 60 days in you don’t have that much time. Like what are we doing? 60 days seems like a long time. It’s not a long time when it comes to trying medications. It’s like why not just approve TMS right off the bat? I know. And see if we can make the progress because FDA approval on clinical depression, severe major depressive disorder, severe recurrent, right? Why don’t we just try that first? Or treatment resistant, whatever. Treatment resistant. Yeah, that’s that’s what that points towards. Why don’t we just try it first? I know, right? Then we get to protect their character. Like maybe I’m not weak. This this intervention really helped out. Yeah. Yeah. And maybe we get to protect some part of their biology where they don’t have to go up and down on these different medications. Yeah. I mean, that would be that would be not being in the business for repeat business. Yeah. Well, yeah. We’re on we’re on the path. You know, it’s really really difficult to work with those folks sometimes, but I’m grateful to have the opportunity to introduce them to, you know, potentially if they’ve come from another treatment program. Sometimes we get that where they’re coming from another treatment program. They have a few failed attempts already. We can get them right in the chair. you know, and within moments they’re they feel like they have some agency back. Yes. You know, which is huge to your point because you guys are doing the research and seeing what they did before and using that instead of that God complex or that ego that often comes to be like, well, no, let’s just try this one more time. It’s like, well, no, let’s not. You guys are doing a great job. Exactly. I used to do that as well. We first opened, man. People would be like, I worked the steps. I don’t feel well. I said, which one? Which one? just stop by. It’s just like when needs aren’t met, it’s really difficult to be here with you. You know, it’s very difficult to engage in a group process. Not to mention, it’s a room full of strangers. I’m supposed to come in and with all my trauma wave my trust wand around. Yeah. You know, it’s not smart. That’s poor boundaries. Exactly. Yeah. So, talking a bit about the recovery side of things, how do people recover? Wow. What is the what what’s happening for the individual as they recover? What are we talking about TBI just from trauma or addiction or what do we let’s do TBI and trauma? Yeah.
I think it’s I think in this way it is similar to addiction, right? It’s not about what you’re going to stop, it’s about what you’re going to start. So that’s a huge part of recovery is like we got to figure out what are we going to start? And so certainly we need to know what the traumas are. What what event caused the the head injury? What event caused the psychological damage or injury? Certainly we need to build skills, right? Um and everything from DBT skills, dialectical behavioral therapy, right? Mindfulness skills, interpersonal effectiveness, distress tolerance and emotional regulation. like those skills like everyone would be a better human being if they just concentrated on those like developing more of those four right so DBT is great but also appraisal skills right like we are not on like people are generally honest people I think people try to be honest no matter what demons they’re fighting with but we’re not our mind is not very honest our mind is brilliant beautiful treacherous silly and stupid and it happens like those five characters can happen in a couple moments of each other, right? And so we misappraise, right? We put things in the wrong category. So a big skill is very simply put, good is good, neutral is neutral, bad is bad, right? Bad is broken up into two categories. Stress and threat. Okay. What’s threat? Well, guns, knives, and fangs. Like if that like we should approach life even stress, but there are some things we should avoid. Guns, knives, and fangs. Like when that that’s happening, you’re in a threat situation. Your nervous system will optimize to increase survival potential and you’ll deal with it one way or the other. If it doesn’t fit into that very slim category, it doesn’t matter how it feels. It’s a stress. Yeah. But the problem is is people take things from a neutral category or a good category and put it in to the bad category. For instance, just sit still. Don’t move for five minutes, two minutes. And people that have unresolved trauma will like not oftenimes will not like that. They don’t want to be still like still means danger. Yeah. Okay. So that’s stillness neutral is now a stress. People that have broken hearts, right? Love is dangerous. I’ll stay out of relationships. Well, now we’re putting love into a stress and and threat category, right? That’s not true. It’s like, no, that relationship didn’t serve you and was hard, but that doesn’t make love bad. Yeah. It it makes all sorts of other things complicated, but love is not bad. Love heals. Love organizes, right? Yeah. And so we have to get really good at putting things in the right category and that’s called appraisal skills. And I developed that basically through the the Buddhist eight-fold path. It’s like there’s a lot there’s volumes written on the eight-fold path and it’s like we got to simplify it. So it’s like this is what we want to stay present to major skills, right? This allows us to build a better relationship with ourselves because we’re making good choices. Like oh no, I can sit here and have a cup of tea and know that nothing bad is going to happen. That’s neutral. That’s wellness. And I can celebrate goodness, right? I don’t always have to prioritize the negative bias. Yeah. Right. And and the the managing of threat and stress, but these are the habits that we we create. Yeah. So with DBT with appraisal skills certainly understanding and doing good trauma work on the process and then it’s it’s I’m a behaviorist so it’s like you got to do things different like when you say like what’s the treatment plan it’s like do things different there’s no way around it you have to stand next to your trauma you have to learn stuff and you got to do things different there’s there’s no way around it if you’re interested in change then you have to do those three things. Yeah. Right. I love that appraisal. I don’t think I’d ever heard that before. Yeah. I’ I’ve been developing it over the last couple years. It’s so simple. Yeah. It it really is. And I’ve been finding myself lately, almost 17 years in recovery, I’m like, it’s neither good or bad. Yeah. You know, this isn’t good or bad. And I think we we we don’t celebrate the importance of neutrality enough, right? Like, so how many stress hormones do we have? Like a couple dozen. like the negative to to optimize survival potential. Our nervous system has been evolving or been created whichever one you want over hundreds of millions of years. We’re really good at survival. We have a lot of stress hormones to optimize the survival situation. Dopamine currency of the brain says Andrew Huberman. I love that. Right. And and it’s like that’s easy too like you know something good happens. Ah this we feel excited. It’s easy. Neutrality we got to work towards. Even when you say it, I’m like, I don’t know, Ron. Yeah. Our wellness in calm light. Like especially with all the tech distractions that we have. We are not spending time sitting quietly and just enjoying that wellness. We don’t spend enough time doing that. So we get that through formal meditation but also just sitting quietly and stilling your body, right? Got to work at that. That takes effort. Dopamine and stress don’t take much effort. That’s easy. Yeah. I was trying to think when you said that. When’s the last time I just sat neutral? Now I sat and meditate. I just sat and do breath work. But just sit and be. Don’t move your body. Yo, you know, don’t move your body for five minutes. Like not one itch. I want to try that. Right. And so that brings us to there’s so many interventions, right? Like there’s the traditional outpatient, interventional psychiatry, ketamine, TMS, oxygen, good psychotherapy, the psychedelic movement, right? But what about like traditional meditation? What about fasting? Right? What about sitting in a pitch black room, which I haven’t done yet, but I really want to do it for days. Like that’s like you know this is this is where visions were created from the ancients was just in certainly they had psychedelics but like fasting being still being quiet being in a circle and not being able to move for four days and just being in nature like great insights and visions have been have come from that space. Yeah. And to your point, it’s we’ve our model has gotten so far away from that very very simple truth. Yeah. And it is so simple, but it seems so like contextually very difficult to find. Yeah. Yeah. Go spend 24 or 48 hours in the woods alone where you feel like you’re wrestling with grizzly bears all night, but really it’s just squirrels in the leaves and like watch where your mind goes. Like it’s not what you think. You would you like you’re part of the food chain, but really it’s just squirrels. But in your mind, brilliant, beautiful, treacherous, silly, and stupid. Your mind takes it to all sorts of places and we can’t stand it. It’s so hard, but like that’s where all the beauty is. Well, not all the beauty, but that’s where so much beauty can come from. Yeah. And again, creating a relationship with self as well as the world. Yeah. I love that. It’s so funny. I I do that. Well, when I’m hiking in the middle of the night or like 4:00 a.m. and my wife’s like, “There’s a bear.” I’m like, “It’s all part of the process, baby. This is all right. Let’s go. Let’s go.” She’s like, “No, no, no.” I’m like, “You can’t f focus on that. You got to be where the feet are and we got to go cuz if they want us, they’re going to get us, you know.” But that’s a that’s a very very uh interesting point you make there. Something that I kind of want to wrap a a bow around um this conversation with is like how does fitness and movement because that’s another thing where when we’re doing our authorizations through insurance and they’re saying, “Hey, try this medication, do this.” Um, none of it ever says move your feet. No wild. Drink water, get sun on your face, get in the cold water, do a sauna. It’s so wild. It’s it’s absolutely astonishing to me. Well, and what that what that supports is more wildness, right? So, it supports the idea of symptom reduction, right? So, we’re going to we’re going to manage the symptoms rather than practicing being the whole body person that we were meant to be. Mammals first, which means movement first. Um, so we’re not Yeah, of course we need to address the symptoms, but it’s like I I am interested in you experiencing lower symptoms, but I’m more interested in you becoming a better person, which is not just about symptom management, right? Which gets into another idea that like I have to feel a certain way to do a certain thing. And I call that the the the biggest western lie. That is the Kool-Aid that we all drink. Y I have to feel a certain way to do a certain thing. That speaks to symptom reduction. Yeah. Right. So I don’t want to go on a walk because I don’t feel like going on a walk. What if feelings have nothing to do with going on a walk in reality, but that’s our mind. Brilliant, beautiful, treacherous, silly, and stupid. What we need to do is do the certain thing and then notice how it makes us feel. Right? And that’s how we counter the lie. That’s how we push back on that part of Western culture and say, “I’m not buying into it.” Like, yeah, the medication, the interventions, the resourcing, all this stuff is good, but I got to walk. Everyone should be walking 20 minutes a day. I had one person say like, “We should be walking 20. We are made to walk 20 miles a day. I don’t walk 20 miles in like freaking two weeks.” Right. Yeah. So, it’s like, you know, but but like we should all be walking. We know that we are meant to lift. We don’t have to lift heavy things. Like I can make a great workout out of two gallons of water. Yep. Let alone when I was injured a couple cans of soup. Like if you if you focus, you can work it out. We need to be active and we have to stop waiting until we feel a certain way in order to do it. We just need the selfmastery, the discipline that will eventually lead to selfmastery just to do it. Yeah. Right. And then, you know, those are my best my favorite psychiatrists are like, well, we can look at medication, but how much activity are you getting every day? How’s your sleep? Like, well, we let’s address some of this other stuff. Right. Right. People go to sleep feeling fatigued, but that doesn’t mean they’re physiologically tired. Yeah. You’re only going to get physiologically tired if you roll. If you if you press, if you squat, if you lift, right, if you engage your body, Yeah. then sleep gets easier. Yeah. It’s interesting you say mammals move. I’m just going to remember that. Mammals move. Mammals. Well, I mean, it’s it’s a cool phrase, right? But like every animal moves, right? But like we need to move. We are not meant to be sedentary. Our mind needs that space to be sedentary as we talked about. Sure. Right. But that’s a different form of discipline and selfmastery as well. Yeah. To the point I’ve uh I’ve started taking my coffee dates out of the coffee room. I say, “Meet me at the park. I’ll have a cup of coffee and we’ll walk.” Yeah. And then we get done. And I’ve never met anybody that got done with a workout or a walk or some time in the sunshine and came back and was like, “Hey, Ron, terrible advice. Real shitty out there. I got worse.” No. Everybody’s like, “Wow, I feel a lot better.” Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Good move. And so not listening to that and retraining that we just do the thing. And I think that’s kind of the way I’ve formed some of my routine is just like I don’t necessarily want to get up at 4:15. Not necessar it’s dark out, nobody’s up, birds aren’t chirping, it’s cold, but there’s this thing that I do that really provides me some agency and a foundation in my life that allows me to tackle whatever it is. It’s really, really beautiful. So I love that you guys are talking about this stuff at Denver Mind Spa. Getting people active, getting people well. you know, with the introduction of the hormone stuff. I think that was a brilliant uh point that you made there. When we’re not optimized on that side, we can’t show up for life in the way that we need to. So, I love that. Um you guys are bringing those on at MindSpot, right? Beautiful thing. Yeah. And it’s, you know, you know, a big thing in the culture, in the wellness c culture. It’s like do hard things. Yep. And then things start to change. Don’t feelings are really good when it comes to survival mechanisms. Feelings are really good when it comes to love. Like, right. And love, I’m kind of a bastard when it comes to, but like love is a long-term survival mechanism. Yeah. Right. The studies are very clear. People with loving, consistent, deep, long-term relationships live longer. Yeah. Get sick less. Right. So, like, absolutely. I hate to break it down from a reductionistic point of view, but love is a survival mechanism, too. Yeah. Um, love is really good to know like, you know, what do I want to eat today? Do I feel like Italian or you know something else? Right. But like emotions complicate things. A lot of things. Yeah. Right. Like emotions are good for some things but not for working out. Mhm. Not at all. They’re actually the opposite. Emotions come as a welcomed consequence to the hard lift or to the thing that we don’t want to do but we were able to do. Then we can feel good about it. Right. Yeah. But you can’t if you wait until you’re ready, you ain’t going to be ready. You just got to start. Yeah, I love what you’re saying, too, because I even, you know, being into a routine that’s pretty well established. I mean, it’s like on Monday, I went for a run. I was going to run three miles. I start out, I’m like, I’m gonna do a half mile. I’m going to do a half mile. No, wait. Let me get to the top of this hill because I know when I get to the top of the hill, it’ll be downhill. I’ll cruise down to downhill. I’ll come back. I’ll just do a mile. I’ll just do a mile. I got to a mile. I’m like, ah, well, the wind’s blowing right now. I think I’m going to try a mile and a half. We’ll do a mile and a half. It’s this constant conversation in this battle of just continue to do the thing. Yeah. Approach. Well, stay in contact. Stay in contact with your mind. Like, don’t just have a oneanddone conversation. It’s an ongoing experience. Yeah. Just like with people, right? So, all right. I didn’t I I three miles seems hard. I’m going to do I’m going to chunk it down. Chunking it down is great, right? Yeah. And being able to listen to your body in that as well. Totally. And on that note, there’s a lot of evidence that waking up early is really good for people, but some people just can’t do it. Like I’m 4:00 at 4. I’m like not waking up that early, right? Like the amount of pre-workout I need to get a good workout at 4:30 in the morning is not healthy, right? Like it’s like so like listen again building relationship with yourself and the environment. Like you don’t you know this stuff on you know the the people say like if you’re not wake up at 4, you’re not going to be successful, right? No success. There’s lots of ways to be successful. Find your rhythm. Yep. You know, maybe you wake up at 6:00 or 7 or 8 and maybe you’re going to bed later. Like it doesn’t matter. Exactly. Right. But like what is working and that’s the internal conversation that we have to keep in contact with. Yeah. I love that too. And more than anything, I think for me at least, and I know for you, I mean, eight hours of sleep is the goal. And so if I can get that eight hours, I’m just one of those people like the kids are like, “Dad, it’s still light out. You’re going to bed.” I’m like, “You’re going to bed, too. Everyone’s going to bed. Shut it down. I got my eye mask on. it’s over. They’re like, “Dude, you’re insane.” I’m like, “Listen, I got things to do.” You know, the winter time it’s a lot better. But, wow, Dr. Ron, I really appreciate you coming on the show today. I mean, having you on has just been a breath of fresh air. I know the viewers are going to take to this really, really well. How can people in community find you guys? Um, mindspendenver.com. Mindpadenver.com. Yep. Okay. Um, uh, Sam’s doing a great job increasing some social media stuff and you know, but I’m oldfashioned. I don’t have any social media. Just call us. Good for you. Good for you. My best friend Christian doesn’t have social media and I bet he’s got hours of his life back. You know, I think that’s so easy. It’s so easy to It’s so much dopamine, right? It’s just little little pleasures. Yeah. Um, but yeah, just call us, man. Just look us up and call us. Mindpad Denver. Mindpad Denver.com as well. They are fully in network with just about everybody. We I think yeah there’s six different insurance the big six. Okay. Five. Six. Yeah. Big six. Um yeah. So yeah, we just got to keep the conversation going. Cool. And this isn’t uh we’ve had Sam on before. We have Dr. Ron on. We’ll have do Dr. Ron and Sam on again in a few months here as we begin to kind of build out our Triricare Tri West track for folks receiving ketamine infusion and TMS. So, thank you for showing us all today how this thing is possible. In my opinion, you guys have one of the greatest things going up in Denver. Reach out to them if you’re struggling, if you’re on the fence, if you just don’t know who to call, give them a shout down there. They’ll march you in the right direction and take phenomenal care of you. Yeah. And on that note, real quick, you know that our Triricare package is unbelievable that if people can um get approved for Triricare, then we are off offering oxygen and ketamine. Oh, wow. On the house. So we really there’s there’s with all insuranceances there’s hoops to jump through but you know we want to we want to give back especially to our our service people. Absolutely. So big fan of of the military and the people that are making those sacrifices. That’s a huge deal for those TRIRA folks. I mean getting that full package for just the Triricare benefit. I hadn’t heard that before. So I’m grateful that you mentioned it. So thank you Dr. Ron. Absolutely. Thank you so much. Yeah. Until next time. Peace.