Episode 134
From Stigma to Support: Managing Tough Conversations with Dr. John Narine

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Description

In this episode, Chris welcomes Dr. John Narine, founder of Recovery Friendly Leader, to the studio to engage in a necessary conversation surrounding recovery in the workplace. Dr. John and Recovery Friendly Leader strive to destigmatize the notion of addiction in the workplace and encourage restructuring leadership and support systems for an all-around healthy organization. From looking into some problematic gaps within companies’ systems to how to manage the complex and emotional conversations within a workplace, John and Chris light up the room in this episode, opening the floor to a discussion many are unaware of. For more information on Dr. John Narine or Recovery Friendly Leader, check out Recoveryfriendlyleader.org. Please note: In this episode, we refer to Recovery Friendly Leader as ‘Recovery First Leaders’; however, we are only speaking on Recovery Friendly Leader with the help of Dr. John Narine.

Talking Points

1. 
   
2. Introduction to Dr. John Narine (0:20)
   
3. John’s story (2:05)
   
4. Recovery Friendly Leader (5:20)
   
5. Implementing RFL in organizations (7:45)
   
6. “Stigma” (10:17)
   
7. Gaps within HR & internal policies (11:50)
   
8. Perspectives and fears (15:05)
   
9. Impacts of the pandemic (17:05)
   
10. Authenticity (19:49)
    
11. Internal relationships (21:00)
    
12. Leading Workplace Addiction (22:20)
    
13. John’s professional dream (26:20)
    
14. Recoveryfriendlyleader.org (28:25)
    
15. Final thoughts (29:43)
    

Quotes

“My recovery people? They are the most productive people I’ve ever met. They are the most extraordinary individuals on this earth when supported correctly. Seen, valued, heard”.

– Chris Burns, Founder & CEO

Episode Transcripts

Episode -134- Transcripts

[Music] hey everybody and welcome to another amazing exciting and enthusiastic episode of Finding Peaks Yours Truly Chris Burns president and founder chief executive officers here at Peaks recovery centers I am so grateful today to be joined by John nen president founder recovery first leaders before we get into recovery first leaders which is very very catchy we’re going to be talking about um a multitude of things he’s also an author of leading workplace addiction so grateful to have Dr John um naren here today Dr John how are you doing today sir pretty good thank you awesome man thanks for hanging out with me today we’ve had a great time getting to know each other we just got done touring trail head up at Peaks recovery centers checking in with none other than Chef Sandra got the lowdown on the culture and The Culinary setting there at Peak so grateful to have you here today sir thank you for joining us thank you thank you for having me and thank you for your hospitality and showing me around and um it was great to see your staff and how well they they love seeing you yeah it was pretty cool and how they remind me when they haven’t seen you she was like where have you been I missed you yeah I I love being seen there and it’s it’s one of those environments that we were talking about earlier where you know it was kind of forged in fire a decade ago kind of behind this Theodore Roosevelt quote that says nobody cares what you know until they know that you care and so I’m so grateful when we can take people into the facility and you get to kind of experience that energy uh firsthand and I know it’s near and dear to your heart with what you do and what you’ve set up with you and your team and so can’t wait to get into some of that um so so grateful to have you on today as we sit here today maybe you can allow the viewers a little bit of insight into kind of your personal and professional story like how did we get here how did you um become to have so much passion not only for the professional recovery um Workforce situation that you have going on but your personal side as well sure yeah you know I didn’t get H by choice and wasn’t my plan I’ll put it that way yeah it was not but when it was put before me it it just it was something I just felt like I was called to do and today I can’t imagine my life without you know I I personally recovery myself suffered from addiction first to alcohol then it was to other drugs and finally my last Vice meth which really took me downhill really fast MH and when I was sober I was a really high function employee like I was the guy getting noticed and turning things ahead of time and doing more than what you’re paying me to do and that you know was um just my pattern when I was sober but when I wasn’t it was the complete opposite I wouldn’t show up I didn’t turn things in when I said I was going to and I just became really unreliable cost companies a lot of money you know I hurt teams that I was supposed to manage and be there for so when I was thinking about how do I ask for help this was the issue at the time I didn’t really have a family that I had a family but I didn’t know how to go to them and and tell them what was going on be scary I have friends but I didn’t know how to go to them or say anything I was kind of you know dipping my toes into recovery programs 12ep non1 12ep but didn’t use it for what they suggested using it for so work became my family MH impressing my boss uh making the my co-workers happy that was my family so to think about how do I actually tell them and disappoint them and become the black sheep and and and who knows what may happen that was the struggle how do I ask for help and keep my job so because of that I just chose to stay quiet yeah and I end up losing both wow yeah and that could be like I mean you just bring up such a good topic with respect to just not feeling safe to explain and introduce who and what I am and where I’m at in the workplace I saw it so often in my early career you know house managers would come in it’s like it was the best job I ever had when I got here making 10 bucks an hour my sobriety my job is dependent on my sobriety mhm this is a protected situation these are people struggling with mental health issues with no Outlets or reprieve or connections to go to in the workplace I really love I hate that you had to walk through it but I love that you saw it clearly as an opportunity to say hey I think there’s something here that we can insert and just do a bit differently for these folks to feel safe and have an opportunity because I’ve been telling people for years like my recovery people are the most productive people I’ve ever met they’re the most extraordinary human beings on planet Earth when supported correctly right seen valued heard which rfl kind of takes a pretty big aim at in the professional Community yeah maybe you can talk a little bit with the viewers about rfl recovery friendly leaders I love the name yeah love the name yeah so there’s a movement Nationwide called recovery friendly workplace uh it started a couple years ago in in New Hampshire and the government has noticed it wants many states to do this initiative and Colorado great I’m very grateful for this has legislation now that has that that that puts this recovery fundly workplace initiative in the state where workplaces can get policies they can figure out how to work with someone to have the culture and the resources that protect and support employees in recovery and keep the workplace safe so recovery friendly leader was a play off that name because you know we work in collaboration with them in fact our uh logo Circle and tri triangle a lot of debate went to how do we show this servant leader recovery friendly leader and those are the symbols that kind look like a button up like it’s the person right it’s the leader the upside down triangle for the servant leader and then just the recovery symbol of the triangle and the circle so it all just fits fits well together but what we do is now that a workplace says that they can support employees right we go and we show the managers exactly what that looks like I worked in a place like that where we had policies we had mental health days that we could take no reason needed we had FMLA and and an EAP we have everything people first culture but when I came forward and asked for help no one knew what to do because no one had training so figuring out along the way we were all doing that together and it may might have looked differently I can bet in my life it would have looked differently if there was some training involved on both of us know both of us yeah it could be it can be you know some of the most resourced HR departments you know I can be up on campus and some of the biggest fears for professionals up on campus is like did you guys fill out my FMLA am I going to have my job in I mean these are prime Primal issues right we trying to settle into grief week I’m trying to get some work done here and I don’t know if I’m going to be supported and to your point in HR departments that are far more resource than most that we come across in behavioral health or any other sort of profession and we just miss the opport opportunity for some of those connected tissue conversations trainings and opportunities um in those professional settings yeah you know yeah what has been some of the the like really interesting on like when you go into facilities and they contract with you and you go through the workbook what are you seeing some of the biggest kind of like aha moments for people within that professional setting like I can’t believe I miss that or or whatever it might be yeah it I just did a training um maybe two months ago and it was a introductory it was our pilot training okay it’s introduction to substitutes addiction and Recovery in the workplace and it was breaking things down in a very digestible chunks and and level so most of the people in there were in HR and they were not in the recovery field which is beautiful because that’s the people we’re trying to reach right the people that don’t know this and substance use right I I start with what is a substance so breaking out the dictionary and it’s a thing made up of uh it’s it’s a chemical makeup of of a thing basically so this book this this straw right there’s a chemical makeup to it so now when we bring that idea into the workplace we talk about substance use right then we’re talking about what drugs and alcohol that can include Tylenol but breaking it even further we’re looking at problematic substance use here so what is the the substances that are causing problems to the work and what does that look like then all of a sudden it’s no longer oh they have substance use disorder we don’t know what that’s like it’s unrelatable this is okay this could show up at as a one-time incident or it can progress into a compulsive addictive nature I used to go out with plenty of managers who did not have any disorder we all called off the following day right but they don’t have disorder right they but could they benefit from maybe a conversation when you don’t show up this is how it affects the workplace right when you don’t uh when you come in late or you’re H over this is how it affects the workplace the point is to increase relatability and I had a HR professional reach out to me and said thank you now I understand a little more of how this actually looks like and what this means yeah you’re almost introducing them to their position within the story everybody engages with substance guys right some do it more problematic than others some have more intensity seasons of life and form that but let’s let’s be clear they can leave that first training that first pilot training going I think I might have struggled with a substance a time or two right you know and the compassion and empathy and ah connectedness you know because we talk about stigma all the time it’s a it’s it’s a word that there’s so many trainings on and there’s so many techniques but for me it’s if I’m going to destigmatize something and try to bring in understanding relatability is one of the fastest way for me to get there right if I can relate I can understand much better and empathize much better so that is kind of the intention behind how we go about this everything’s about collaboration how we work together yeah yeah yeah that’s really cool I love the education first thing because we were talking a little bit earlier about um when we were getting zoned for Peaks recovery and all kind of the riger Roll we had to go through and the intensity in the community and you were like why wouldn’t they want this resource here and I was like yeah but I I think sometimes when people don’t understand and they’re not educated they don’t understand something they judge it and a lot of times that world view can be a little bit disconnected from the reality and so I love that we’re starting with education that is such a huge thing because in that education piece I think there’s so much connection and when you get that connection in my experience you got the influence when you have the influence we’re recovery friendly leaders yes I know you’ve touched on it a little bit um but what are some of like the bigger gaps you’ve seen within you know HR departments policies and procedures is it just absent entirely with respect to um insight into mental health and Recovery in the HR department and FMLA or what are some of the biggest gaps you’re seeing um that we can begin to fill through resources like recovery friendly leaders and Recovery friendly workplaces sure um you know I I was speaking to the construction Association a few weeks ago and they the people in this particular meeting all are advocates for mental health in their workplaces I mean in the industry there’s tons of suicide and overdose and it’s it’s pretty intense right now so the one struggle they had is how do we get our leadership open to this they they love the word mental health right but we as soon as we get to substance recovery then it’s like don’t talk about it and it’s it’s so that’s where we start right we start with where they’re at so in any industry that’s what we’re trying to do when it comes to the healthare field this one baffles me a lot specifically in the peer recovery space because your bosses are people with lived experience MH and when I took a poll and asked would you feel comfortable telling your boss if you were struggling that day I heard a lot of nose and I was floored because who better to understand but I need to be seen as capable I might be pulled off right if I have a a license that might get it’s the fear of that might get um a violation or or I might lose that and you know nurses doctors they all fall under the same fear of speaking out and what we talk about in our training is I didn’t learn to be in recovery by keeping it silent with the expectation to stay sober yeah right cuz that’s what you’re saying yeah right without saying it that’s not what I learned so if I can release a thought or a craving by speaking it so that I can be capable and able well why why can’t I do that yeah what unfair predicament is this field placing me in you know and it’s all about health at the same time so each industry is having their specific nuances and I’m I’m learning more along the way you know as I talk to more companies and and get out there that’s so interesting you bring up such a a unique point is to say that like even in our substance use treatment programs and our behavioral health networks um in our healthc care settings where it’s top of mind the second we start mentioning substance use people like oh I think I have to have two years to do this job or I have to you know if you’re a client care Aid you know you’re sharing experience strength and hope and a lot of time that experience strength and hope feels very much waged on is my sobriety intact and is it safe to be honest because we know that honesty is the key and so I love that you’re talking about this and I’ll even speak to it in early Peaks is where I can see you know we’ve been around 10 and a half years now you know the first half of Peaks I would imagine that people didn’t feel safe coming forward and saying hey I had a bad Wednesday I’m hopeful that we’re moving in that direction because we treat it Peaks we’re just we treat suffering all in the same thing and we’re all here together and we get professionals from Idaho and post office workers from New York and young women from Nebraska and you know all points in between um and I feel very privileged to do that but I love what you’re doing here because you’re providing what I can see very clearly it’s just a Missing Link in the chain yeah you know the other two big things that I’ve seen along the way is people think I’m I’m hearing this perception again without them saying it but for example we’re going to lose our federal funding if we do this yeah so that to me tells me you think you’re hiring and employing people actively using and going to enable that or accept that as the behavior in in or the conduct in the workplace and that’s not what this is so that’s another challenge is changing that perception another one is um you know we don’t do a lot of Nan but I’ve heard we can’t have Naran because uh we can’t condone people using right right so it’s just there’s a lot of just it’s a lot of P perspectives that have to be switched on what this work is and the tools that we’re trying to to give you you know a lot of the stuff is already in I I talked you about this right I believe the skills are there we’re going to help reveal them right and how to apply them towards people in recovery yeah I love that just kind of reframing for people and reorienting people it’s a bit of like cognitive behavioral therapy right you know but it is it is so inciteful when you can educate people get them to see clearly their spot in the story I go back to my personal recovery all the time it’s like when when they placed me when they placed my story within theirs I was like let’s go right cuz I could feel that that and it was connected and there was something about it that made me feel a part of and we could walk with and so I don’t think even though it feels like a heavy lift in Corporate America I don’t think we’re too far away I think people are feeling this distress people are feeling this disconnection employer groups are feeling some of their strongest leaders and employees for whatever reason here today and gone tomorrow without really an answer as to why M and I think your company and and the way that you guys are moving into Community really speaks to that in a very clear way yeah so it’s really really awesome yeah thank you very much I’d say like after the pandemic is when I think more companies are starting to be more open to this you know alcohol was an essential and Co revealed a lot to us about how people cope whether they had a disorder or not yeah right um and it’s become a need mhm yeah since the pandemic yeah it really is it’s I love that you bring that up too cuz it I remember sitting with people in the pandemic being like oh this is amazing we’re all in this place together in this recovery environment there’s no cars in the road as as bad as the pandemic was and we lost more people um than we should have I think it really provided it it kind of lifted the bottom up for a lot of us and provided an opportunity for us to see each other clearly in an environment that was pretty disconnected and so I always thought to myself how lucky we were to be in recovery and in recovery community when we were walking through that I mean how cool yeah you know yeah so I got sober in the pandemic oh really yeah wow so I mean it’s I didn’t have the experience prior the way I did do now to the connectedness of being in person and being able to give somebody a hug cuz yeah I love giving hugs yeah I I I was hugging your staff you I love it and you know um that really tore a lot of people up because that’s that physical connection is is just so special so it’s funny because at the workplace I used to live in Florida so the way we used to say hello at work was handshake and a kiss on the cheek oh cool so when I moved to Colorado I said hello the way I knew how yeah HR had to talk to me after that in like hey man this a safe workplace but I didn’t know right I love it yeah but um just that physical touch and and you know the int intimacy that comes with that for connection is is really important I think yeah I forgot how much I I missed that in the pandemic and I was actually at a conference in um California where were we Beverly Hills or something or rather okay and it was an emergence conference with TJ Woodward and TJ Woodward put on the conference and it was really really cool and one of the really really unique and dynamic things about it were that nobody could read off of slides we all had to be together connected in this place and they did a ton of Psycho Drama um within the conference which is really atypical than like a treatment conference but it was all about Community it was all about connection it was all about intimacy it was all about relationship um and quite frankly it was the coolest conference I’ve ever been to yeah I mean just really really cool just talk about authenticity and that was something when we first checked in um and then even when we checked in before the show it was like that’s something that strikes me about you as a president and the leader of this organization is this authentic piece that you bring forward that you really want to just share with people in a really really cool way and I love today how you’ve been so honest and open and clear with the viewers because I think sometimes people misread addiction and misread alcoholism and they say there’s no way this guy could have struggled with that right and I just love that people like you professionals like yourself and humans in recovery and come into a place like this and share openly with the world that yeah I am that and I also walked through this MH and it’s fortified and forged in this environment through recovery leaders and I want to share that with the world I think it’s a really beautiful thing man um and I am honored to be able to sit here with you today um and share this with the viewers so before we go I want to talk about I got my own copy today you know and um really looking forward to getting into this but maybe we can talk a little bit about why you wrote this book what people can expect and then what that is over there sure um before I get into that I want to talk to you about the relationship piece that you just mentioned if I may absolutely yeah that’s a huge piece to our training right how managers can have that relationship with the employee any employee right just like you would any you get to know their personality their characteristics you form that bond with them we want everyone to have that camer and team work team building like you know environment where they feel like they belong the research that went behind that book goes into basic needs of a human and basic needs of someone in recovery and an employee and they all align and one of those basic needs are is the need to belong right so when we I hear it all the time the opposite of addiction is connection right so when we fulfill that one need in the workplace and that might look like um soliciting someone opinion on a project or inviting them to a meeting personally right just that extra step because we get into the how mhm right we get into the how how to really make that employee feel that they’re valued for who they are that we intentionally want to work with you despite the fact that you’re in recovery or not whatever your status is and that we love you right we care about you and your wellbeing yeah so that book that book really was it started out as my dissertation in school see when I wasn’t sober I wasn’t passing this one class I needed to actually get to the dissertation phase and I got sober and all of a sudden I passed yeah with fly colors I’m sure who would have thought right it was a great paper yeah yeah so when it came time to study a problem I the only thing that really spoke to me was how do other managers do this how do they help someone like me and keep their business operational and luckily during the pandemic I was able to find people who had this experience of helping an employee who gave them the same suggestions that would offer to me same exact things but it was the how see when EIP was offered to me I said Thank you and I hung up because I don’t know what you’re going to share with with my HR or my manager I’m afraid to ask you because of what you may think for me about me asking I’m not going to look it up I whatever right but they were taking the extra step to Hey listen when you go there everything’s confidential we won’t know what you talked about with your cancor we just want you to get better right and employees were doing the suggestions and and they were forming this trust with their manager they were willing to follow their guidance they were willing to talk about small issues because they became bigger problems and that’s the relationship that was starting to get built right and those are the relationships we want to see in more workplaces yeah because we want just want to make make sure the opportunity to recover always exists through the efforts of the leaders right to make sure that opportunity is there that the barriers are broken down that accessibility is Equitable amongst everyone yeah we want the employee to feel comfortable taking advantage of that yeah that’s a huge deal yeah I mean there’s a difference between a policy that says I’m allowed to leave work on time yeah but when I do that the one who stays later gets the promotion of course right right so yeah the policy may say something but how do I show you it’s okay that’s what we try to bring in how do you inform that and you you brought up such a beautiful point and I think sometimes in business we get into this like well we don’t want a family but you talk about something much different it’s more of a community feel and being a part of something and feeling important within that ecosystem back to our Point seeing valued and heard mhm I can speak for myself when I’ve been in professional settings when I’m seen valued and heard and I can speak to when I’m not and the differences are insane MH so I love what you’re doing to fortify this opportunity because I’m sure you’ve done the cost benefit analysis with onboarding employees and discharging and eaps and HRS and all this stuff and um I’m sure it’s very costeffective opportunity for people to engage with in one of which like from an employee handbook or like a package perspective yeah if I’m reading through that I’m like oh my goodness this is amazing yeah because it says you care and I think that’s what people that are struggling with mental health and substance use issues need to know is they walk through a really difficult issue that it tends to be generally mired in a tremendous amount of Shame so thank you for being a conduit to help pull people and walk with people out of that I have had one question that I always like to ask young entrepreneurs like yourself that are just getting ready to set this world on fire um zoom out or zoom in zoom out zoom in five years from now 10 years from now recovery first leaders if you could have a professional dream come true and one of them what would it be and why professional dream five years from
now you know I’ve had a few people from different states that want to do this training and I have reluctantly said no it was hard I’m going to tell you why I have made no income so far right and it wasn’t about that because it’s it’s about doing this work finally we got a grant right and and they want to license this they want to bring it to their state you know bring it to the association I I got to see this work here first I got to work out the Kings yeah you know before I go and be like hey go use this stuff so I would love to
see particularly the East Coast where I’m from right I’m sure this is everywhere but from my experience certain places and the culture and what that’s like I’m just a number as as long as I can produce that number I’m great right and the mo the one day I don’t buy your history so to bring this into those types of workplaces across states that have that culture you know I would love to see that happen and hopefully the opportunity Still Remains on now that is so cool I tend to believe I bring people on this show you know amazing professionals but even better humans I I I tend to believe you will sell yourself short with that proposition because recovery friendly leaders are here recovery friendly workplaces are alive and well PE it’s top of mind it’s a Hot Topic I think you’re moving into a very very important part just with your personal recovery but professional side of things that is really really needed right now everybody knows there’s a disconnect they just don’t know where and why and I think recovery first leaders uh leading workplace addiction a lot of the energy that you’re creating um is going to speak to that really really Qui really really clearly before we end here how can um the viewers find you how do we get a hold of this information how do we get it in our treatment programs how do we get it in our workplaces website all of that good stuff sure our website is www. recovery friendly leader. org um there’s information about how we got started our history the research that actually went into this um if you’re more interested in the book or wanting to support organization there’s a donate button there in fact Colorado gives Day is coming up and I’m doing a giveaway of a free book anyone who donates $250 or more gets entered into a drawing for that book so I’m pretty excited about that and what’s to come and I love the work that you’re doing too treatment centers are important I’ve been to my fair share and you know FMLA helps with that but you talked about community so I experienced that for 30 60 90 days my longest term was 90 residential right so I have three months of this ongoing Community experience and when I get out of there if I still have my job or I get a new one right and that job supports me then that means that translates and keeps going into the workplace as well see I don’t support you by sending you to treatment because you’re cured and can come back to toxicity that’s not how this works yeah so that is the work we’re doing too so to the important thing I want you to know right or any treatment center out there is when your clients come out and they go back to work hopefully they work somewhere that understands what just happened and what needs to happen moving forward especially at a place where they’re spending a lot if not majority of their waking hours where everything they just learn is going to get tested now at work y right so that support especially from their manager someone who can give that strong guidance that’s what we hope to be able to provide do yeah I love it and when we first met I’ll say it again as I said it then a few weeks ago I I know recovery friendly workplace has been around for a little while but this is the first time in Colorado in my 10 years of being here I’ve heard anything close to this I cannot wait for this to take off like a wildfire recovery friendly leaders Dr John nin thank you sir appreciate you thank you very much all right viewers until next time you know peace