We’re back with another On the Journey episode! We had a delightful conversation with Living Joyfully Network member Kendel Ricker. Kendel is an unschooling mom of two kids, 11 and 9, and she shared some of her journey with us.

Kendel’s own education included homeschooling, private school, and public school, as well as university and teachers’ college. Her experiences allowed her to really come to home education for her own children with confidence. From there, her path to unschooling was really led by her children and it has been magical!

We talked about releasing expectations and control, finding creative outlets as parents, supporting our children’s interests, and looking for the “glimmers” in our everyday lives.

It was a really beautiful discussion and we hope you find it helpful on your journey!

Watch the video of our conversation on YouTube.

We invite you to join us in The Living Joyfully Network, a wonderful online community for parents to connect and engage in candid conversations about living and learning through the lens of unschooling. Our theme this month is Seasons.

Visit LivingJoyfullyShop.com to find our coaching, courses, and books.

Follow @exploringunschooling on Instagram.

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Check out the Living Joyfully website for lots more info about exploring unschooling and decoding the unschooling journey.

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Sign up to our mailing list to receive The Living Joyfully Dispatch, our biweekly email newsletter, and get a free copy of Pam’s intro to unschooling ebook, What is Unschooling?

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So much of what we talk about on this podcast and in the Living Joyfully Network isn’t actually about unschooling. It’s about life. On The Living Joyfully Podcast, Anna Brown and Pam Laricchia talk about life, relationships, and parenting. You can check out the archive here, or find it in your your favorite podcast player.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

PAM: Hello, everyone! I’m Pam Laricchia from Living Joyfully, and today I’m joined by my co-hosts, Anna Brown and Erika Ellis, and our lovely guest, Kendel Ricker. Hello, everyone.

ERIKA, ANNA, KENDEL: Hello!

PAM: Kendel is an unschooling mom with two kids and a member of the Living Joyfully Network, and I am really excited to share some of your experience and insights with our listeners.

To get us started, I have a two-part question. First, can you tell us a little bit about you and your family and what everyone’s interested in right now? Because that’s always fun to hear. And then we would love to hear a bit about your story of how you came to unschooling.

KENDEL: Okay. Well, thank you so much for having me be part of this conversation. It’s so good to chat with you all. And I just wanted to say how thankful I am for this podcast over the years. It’s been really instrumental in helping me find this path. And these are some of my favorite episodes, where you bring on a parent who shares their journey, because it’s just such a point of connection with people all around the world, when you’re taking this path less traveled, to feel that community behind you. So, I hope that something I share today helps someone along that path like I have from listening to so many episodes like this.

A little bit about my family and myself, like you said, I have two kids, I call them affectionately “my little critters.” My daughter just turned 11 at the end of January, which is hard to believe. And then my son will be nine at the end of February. So, it’s that transition in the winter time where they switch over to the new age.

My daughter is really into birding right now. She can always be found with her adventure pack with binoculars and a compass and bird guides, and she just loves getting out into nature and doing things like swimming and kayaking and fossil hunting. And definitely, we look for opportunities to go try to find migratory birds to support that interest of hers. So, last year we went and saw about 1600 to 1800 tundra swans at a migratory zone. We’re always looking for opportunities like that. Or when there’s bird-type activities going on, like at conservation areas, we can go and be part of that.

And then she and I have actually really been enjoying a YouTube show. It’s called Brit Hikes Ontario. And so, he’s a British man and his wife, and they have set a 300 bird challenge for the year. So, we love watching that together, because it’s quite local to our area, the places they go. So, it’s really helping us learn to identify less common birds and then to see what months they’re passing through our area. So, we’ve been enjoying that together.

And, yeah, she also is a little bookworm. My dad for Christmas made her a window seat bench and a new bookshelf. So, many hours this winter she’s been with a cup of tea sitting at the window with her book. So, that’s been so fun to watch. And she also recently started taking art lessons and has always loved painting and drawing, and she also started violin lessons recently. And that’s been so lovely to watch unfold. So, that’s been cool.

And my son, who’s soon to be nine, his biggest passion is collecting vintage toys. So, he has quite a massive collection of vintage Fisher-Price, the mid-seventies era style. And he also loves the vintage Wrinkles Puppy puppets. I don’t know if you remember those from maybe the eighties. He has quite a few of those as well as a few moose and elephant style of those puppets. And he loves learning the history of those companies and learning all the different parts of the collection. And the fun is in trying to complete the sets, right?

And he also recently really got into western Playmobil and does these quite extensive small world setups. And recently, he’s been taking videos of them and I’ve helped him edit them with some western music in the background and some interesting effects. He loves that. And so, he’s my thrifting and antiquing buddy, too, because that’s a passion of mine, but he loves to come along and search out all the good deals on his vintage toys.

And then he also loves visiting local pioneer villages and heritage sites. And I guess that goes in with this interest in the western Playmobil sets. He sees a lot of these and he loves to go to local museums and see those artifacts and things.

And we all enjoy nature together. I think he loves it from a critter perspective. So, chipmunks, raccoons, squirrels. He likes to bring peanuts along and hide them in various places for the critters.

And then he’s also really into video games, and so is my daughter. And we mostly play them on the computer. And I think he’s a Minecraft whiz and, of course, one of his favorite things on there is we have a texture pack that’s Old Western. So, he loves to bring that to life on there and so creative. And then he also has started sketching old western buildings and he’s getting quite a cool sketch style, his own unique style, so yeah.

And then my husband, I did check in with him and say, how many years have we been married? We’ve been married for 14 years coming up in August, and he’s a structural engineer and he specializes mostly in bridges and we love doing nature stuff as a family together, kayaking and biking and hiking and again, visiting these local sites and just finding interesting things to do in our area. And we love going to provincial parks together. And in his free time, he does weightlifting and then video games as well.

And something him and my son really connect on is playing video games. So, for instance, they have one right now, I think it’s called Railway Tycoon, which would typically be a bit tricky for my son’s skill level. It’s quite complicated, but my son loves interacting with Ben while Ben’s playing. So, that’s so cool to watch unfold with them together.

And then there’s a game one of the moms in the Network suggested. It’s called Ultimate Chicken Horse. And we play it together as a family. And it is very fun and it has created a lot of laughter and it’s animals trying to get through obstacles that you set up to try and get each other and you have to make it difficult. So, that’s been really cool.

And, as for myself, I like photography. I did photography as a career for a number of years as well, so weddings and families and babies and stuff. But now I just do it as a hobby. And I love gardening and mostly I like planting a cutting flower garden, because then I like to bring them in and arrange them and take photos of them. So, that’s combining both of those passions. And I love to decorate for the seasons. I also like to thrift and antique those things and upcycle them to be part of the seasonal decor.

I think what takes a lot of my time and is also a passion of mine is just being an unschooling parent and creating activities and seasonal, fun things for the kids to do and looking for opportunities. And I love to plan events for our local home educating community. So, that’s takes up a lot of my time. Tomorrow, we have a Valentine’s party planned. We do like an annual Halloween party or Not Back to School party and forest meetups and field trips. So, I like to take that role for our community and create opportunities and friendships for my kids through it and put a lot of effort into that.

Right now, we’re also doing a reading club where it’s all very independent, but then we’ll get together at the end of March for a big reading celebration at our local library party. So, I enjoy doing that kind of thing as well.

ANNA: It just sounds so fun and I’m really excited about the seventies. That’s my era of Fisher-Price, so I have some old things that he might like, oh my gosh. I love that.

KENDEL: When we’re on online communities for that, it’s him and an older generation. And they just love seeing him enjoying it and sharing it, because they love seeing it being enjoyed by the next generation.

PAM: Yeah. I think that that is one of the things I love about these conversations. I understand why you love these episodes talking with other unschooling parents about their journeys and experiences, because it’s just so fun and fascinating to hear the different interests, because certainly in your first year, or even just thinking of homeschooling, but even unschooling especially, it’s like, what are my kids going to do? If they’re not going to school, what’s going to keep them busy? So, it’s just a lovely little window into anything that might catch their interest and just to see them.

And the other thing that really shines through for me as you talk about their different interests is, oh my gosh, how much time they have, because they’re not going to school, that they can have this varied set of interests that can weave together day to day. So, yes, that was lots of fun to hear about. So, moving on to your journey to unschooling.

KENDEL: Yes. Sometimes when I’m telling people in person, I actually start with the fact that I have had a lot of personal experience in both homeschooling, private, and public education. And so, I was homeschooled myself until grade two. And then I went to a private school from grade two to six, and then I homeschooled again for seven and eight, and then I went to a public high school until grade 12 and then did my undergrad at university and then eventually finished with teacher’s college.

So, that really does feel like part of my story, because it gave me an early experience with home education myself. And so, certain things that can be some of those first, immediate worries or concerns for parents when choosing home education, I knew that it was such a good fit for me. And I didn’t have that concern about socialization, because I had seen so many opportunities throughout my childhood, the two times that I did home educate, that there was so much to be part of and lots of quality friendships to be part of. And it was kind of a quality over quantity type thing. And that suited me really well. So, that set my mind at ease.

And then sometimes over the years, I’ve had a few people say, oh, well you’re a trained teacher and so, that’s what qualifies you to feel like you can home educate your children. And I actually feel like there was experience in public high school myself, and then there was getting that peek behind the curtain through my teaching placement through teachers’ college that showed me that there wasn’t anything particularly unattainable or magical about what’s done there. And, in fact, it probably built my confidence more in the fact that, with one-on-one, what all of those kids could have benefited from was one-on-one time with a supportive, loving parent or adult. So, it just gave me more encouragement that it was more attainable and doable because of that.

I’m sure you’ve heard from quite a few teachers-turned-unschoolers that it creates more unlearning that you have to do, because what I was mostly trained in was class management or how to get content across to a large group of children who don’t want to listen to you and how to get them the best grades possible type of thing. So, I feel like right away I have let parents know that I think that has caused me more unlearning and more of that peak behind the curtain that it’s manageable.

And then also having had private school and public school, I saw that even the private sector couldn’t provide what you can provide for your own children, which is unconditional love and support as a basis. And then so much more time, like you were mentioning, for them to just explore and see their curiosity unfold. That was my personal experience that made me feel like I could say when my kids were babies, I think I’m going to try home educating.

I think when I first started, I had a very different mindset. I did more classical homeschooling growing up. It was very much, here’s your curriculum books. And I was like, I can get done by noon and then have the rest of the day free. And so, I very much thought that would be what I do with my children. And then I had thought, oh, we have so much time in the afternoons then for all of these extracurricular activities to enrich their learning. My daughter, being the oldest, really fit well into that classical homeschooling model. I feel like she actually felt like we were playing school when baby brother was napping. And so, that really solidified, okay, this is the path for us.

And then once my son came of age to start doing more formal learning, I realized very quickly that he was much more hands-on, curiosity-led, experience-based. And he’s always been a questioner. And not in a defiant way, but just all the why’s, right? Like, why, why, why, why? And so, when you respect your children and you actually hear and take in what they’re saying and you’re not thinking, it’s just disrespect and, “because I said so,” you’re like, well, that is a good question. Why do we have to?

So, I think he was very instrumental in leading me down a more unschooling path or seeking out that lifestyle. And watching my kids and witnessing how they were learning and what was engaging to them and when they retained information when it was more enjoyable or learned from their own interest, that’s what kept helping me build the trust in this ever-evolving path towards more informal, just learning from life together all the time, kind of way.

And I think early on, a word that really stood out to me was Julie Bogart’s word “enchanted,” because that sat well with me when my kids were in those younger years of just looking for ways to make our everyday cozy and inviting and about connection and relationship and magical. Really seeing how quickly it was going and being like, I want this to be happy and magical, not filled with frustration. So, that was really helpful. And then, because I got sent down that path with my son questioning things, whereas my daughter was like, “We can keep playing school as long as you want, Mom,” I would then dive more into books and podcasts related to life without school type of topics, which really set me more on this path.

I think I knew about the term unschooling much earlier, like almost right away. And it was, oh, that’s not me. I’m going to do homeschooling, because it’s so much more, not less. So, I had a very skewed idea, as many people do, of what it is. But then as I got more and more into finding out information and hearing from other parents’ experiences, I was like, oh, okay. That’s what we are doing. I thought it was this big, bad “un” term, with a negative connotation, and realized, okay, that’s actually more so aligned with what we’re doing.

And so, I think that what guides our days is, connection as the number one, the relationship, learning to drop expectations of outcomes. And you talk about that a lot, but that’s been really big for me coming from that very schoolish teacher mentality of, okay, well we’re gonna home educate, but the expectations are still really high. That’s my responsibility as a parent. But learning that they reveal so much more amazing stuff when I’m not trying to get the outcome to be a very specific thing and just then really looking for what lights up my kids’ curiosity and then coming in and supporting that.

And I think another big thing I slowly move towards is, there’s no beginning. We’re not 9:00 AM till noon learning time. It’s so much more about 365. Sometimes, my daughter and I are having the best, deep conversations 10 o’clock at night. There’s just no beginning and end to when learning time is. It’s more of just a lifestyle.

And I think another key thing that I’ve implemented more over this course of coming more away from the structured, classical homeschooling is just more autonomy of choice, so when things are coming from my children and from their interests, it’s so much more beneficial, as it is for us adults. When you’re not being forced to think something cool or, “isn’t this neat?” It’s their choice. And they can learn to make those choices while they have this supportive, loving environment, too, instead of figuring that out once they’re out from our home and starting to finally get to make choices on their own.

PAM: I love that so much. Thank you very much for sharing the various insights that helped you along the way. A lot of them are very similar to mine, because my kids were in school for a while. I didn’t even know that homeschooling was legal then. And we live in the same area.

But I think that’s so fascinating to see that, like you said, as a teacher, you probably had more things to release because you had a picture of what learning “should” in quotes look like.

And I loved your insight, and I think this is something that I share quite a bit, when somebody’s curious about what we do, it’s the difference between a class of 30 kids and a family of a handful of kids maybe. They’ll ask, how do you know they’re learning? You don’t do tests! All those questions, they’re just super curious about. But to recognize that, oh yeah. I see why you need a test in a classroom. But when you get so much time one-on-one with them, as you were saying, oh my gosh, their learning shines. And when you’re connected and engaging with them, you see it in action. That’s the proof. They’re using new words. They’re sharing new things that they’re excited about. “Oh, I discovered this. Oh, look at this bird. All those little pieces are just part of your days.

I think we learn to value those and to see those as the markers. If we’re needing to look for the markers of learning, those are them. Not a mark on a test or a worksheet completed, but they are at least equivalent, but yes, as you shared from your experience, just hanging out with your kids, it’s like, oh, this is just amazingly beautiful.

ERIKA: I love the idea of the one-on-one connection and hearing about your children’s interests. It just makes me think, okay, there’s no school in the world that is going to have birding for 11-year-olds and Playmobil history and Fisher-Price history and these things.

But when they’re picking their own interests, you can see how much learning happens. And when you’re not focused on, “These are the only things that matter,” the whole world opens up with things to learn about. And I just love the joy that comes from that kind of learning.

And you started to talk about it a little bit, that work of letting go of thinking that we can control the outcomes or thinking that we can direct what our kids should be doing and that’s our inner work to do as parents to let go of some of those beliefs. It’s a mindset shift.

And so, I was wondering if we could dive in a little bit more to all the gifts that come from doing that inner work of letting go of control.

KENDEL: Yeah, that’s definitely, I think, just my base personality outside of even being a parent or a home educating parent. I know you guys are big into some of the Myers-Briggs and things and it’s the need to know what the future holds and security are really big for my personality.

So, it’s definitely been my work, as you said, Erika, to learn to let that go. And as my kids are becoming more of this middle aged childhood age, I’m seeing things that maybe I read early on in certain books that helped me, but now I’m seeing them in practice.

A big book for me when the kids were young, that really helped me shift my perspective from feeling like the responsibility as a parent was to control and to guide a certain outcome was Alison Gopnik’s The Gardener and the Carpenter. If anyone hasn’t read it, briefly, it’s, we’re not carpenters as parents and our children are a block of wood that we can have perfectly fashioned into a certain outcome, but instead we can look at ourselves as gardeners who are creating the environment for our children to flourish and they are going to be a spectacular flower or plant that’s already who they are. And we can just give it its needs, the basic needs and enrichment for it to grow. And so, that was super helpful, especially if you’re an unschooling parent, the biggest part of my responsibility sometimes I feel is the environment that we’re creating.

So, I was very easily and quickly able to visualize that as the garden that I can enrich with fertilizer and shelter from the storms and all these things. And so, that really helped me. And it was more theoretical at that point in terms of, okay, that’s the direction I want to go in. But then, as my children are growing older and I’m seeing them prove all that to me, it’s really helpful and it’s coming more into reality now.

Another book that really helped me set aside that feeling of, it was almost like you’re a good parent if you do have that control and you are trying to get your children to certain things, I let that go more so, I was reading, I think this podcast introduced Roya Dedeaux to me and her book Connect With Courage. That was so big to me, because I had kind of let go of that idea of, it’s my job to mold them into something, the carpenter mentality.

But then that book was specifically about hobbies and interests, which I think is an area where I still felt that bit of control because I’m the parent who knows what the options are. So, I have to continually be suggesting them all. And when I could lean into and realize that there were so many more, like I would suggest things and they would be like, maybe, and not be met with that instant yes. Through reading her book, I let go of some control over all that and I really realized then that there were so many more one hundred percent yes right away that were just the everyday things.

From an outsider’s perspective, I felt a lot of external pressure just in conversation with extended family or friends when what they know is to ask, oh, are they in karate, swimming, dance? What are they in? You have all this extra time as a home educator. I almost think I felt pressure that those things validated what I was doing. I think I realized that those are just the things people know about and what we’re doing is so much less known in terms of these little things that we talked about at the beginning of the podcast that are so magical and create hours and hours of learning and fun and interest for the children.

I really started to realize that it was more, like you were saying, about me needing to have that response of, these are what my kids are involved in. If I could let go of that feeling of needing them to be in any of those things to validate what we were doing, I had more time to listen for those little clues, like my daughter would be saying, when can we bake biscuits again? Oh, well, we’re too busy doing all these other things, so we’ll get to that. And my son, when are we going to the forest next? Oh, well after this and this. And so, if you fill your weeks with too much busy work that the kids might be somewhat enjoying but aren’t helping them figure out who they are and really fulfilling them.

I learned to really validate and celebrate all these little things as if I was on some sort of mission to show people these are even more valid than one of the 20 things you can choose from for kids, because look at the excitement and joy my kids are experiencing doing these smaller things that might not seem as spectacular.

And then just watching them throughout that process is what’s important, because you can think a lot of things. You can read a book and think maybe, and then you’ve just got to wait and see it play out. So, it was me stepping aside and letting that happen.

I have an example of that, as I was working through this for myself and getting more confident with not having this list of things I could tell people when they were asking, but really focus in on what I was saying earlier and saying, oh, he’s really into collecting this set right now, and all these mini things. And when people see how much you value it, then I just had to be happy with that and they can take it or leave it.

But when I stopped offering all these options and gave more time, my daughter came to me and said, I really want to play violin. And I was like, oh. That’s out of the blue. Okay. And so, my dad played violin, so she was familiar with the instrument and had tried it with him a few times.

And I love this example, because what Connect with Courage really helped me with was that there’s no set outcomes and then they can quit. If you let it be theirs and they take the ownership of it, they don’t feel all that pressure from us. Because it’s one thing, okay. She chose it. That’s great. But I could also then come in and make that a very different experience.

So, one thing that came up was only a month and a half or so into her learning violin, she had just started playing with the bow and just got off of the finger plucking and her teacher said that there was recital coming up. And so, she knew that either way she could say yes or no to be part of it. She hadn’t even ever played a song before and I was really surprised when she did say yes. But I think it’s because if I look at my experiences, maybe with music lessons, I could definitely feel a, “You will be part of this. You will stick with it, because we’ve paid for it.” There was pressure. And because she knows it’s totally hers and there’s no pressure either way, she was excited to be part of it.

Her teacher in her art class as well as in her violin class remarks that they can see a huge difference because they know she wants to be there and that she’s choosing it. I don’t require her to practice or nag her to do so. And so, it’s just one of the first big things where I’ve seen all of the work I’ve been doing for myself playing out within them and seeing the theory come to life and it’s like, okay, it does work. I’m seeing that she’s self-driven in it and thoroughly enjoying it.

And so, now the work will be if at whatever time she wants to quit, I need to be like, that’s great. Because I’m also learning that a no is just as value valuable as a yes or a continuing because you learn about yourself and practice with that is so crucial, I think, as part of becoming an adult, knowing when something’s a good fit. And knowing that it’s not invalid because at some point you quit even if you had such great potential. So, that’ll be my next little bit of carrying through the theory is being comfortable with whatever choices they’re making for themselves.

ERIKA: Yeah. Oh my gosh. I loved all of that so much. I feel like there’s so many little parts to pull out. I love that you recognized your personality pieces with the tending toward control. I think that’s so important to realize, like, I’m going to need an outlet for myself in this area. And maybe I could start to control the environment instead of the people. I feel like that’s so huge.

And then just with the people around you wondering, putting that pressure on you of like, what are the activities the kids are doing? They don’t know to ask about birding and Fisher-Price. It doesn’t make any sense. They only know these typical things that the kids might be involved in.

And so, I love the idea of giving the kids space for things to bubble up for them. And then, the violin example is just so beautiful. It’s a surprise. It’s even something that some parents would push their children to do and she’s choosing to do it herself with that space so that you know it’s just something that she’s interested in. So, I thought all of that was so beautiful.

ANNA: Yeah, the thing I wanted to pull out, and we’ve talked about this before, but it’s that piece when we step back and stop with our agenda, which is so common, because we’re trying to do the best job, we’re trying to be the best parent, but then that’s actually when we learn about them. That’s when those things bubble up from them and we actually start to see, oh, there are enthusiastic yeses. They’re there. They just might not have been for the list of things I had in mind.

And so, I love that reminder that it’s not like we’re going to step away and it’s just going to stay here. Other things will bubble up, but it’ll be coming from them. So, I think that’s just really beautiful. And I think that piece that Erika pulled out, too, about the other people, I actually think and I bet it has been your experience, too, that when you’re sharing those things that they enjoy, actually people are interested in talking about that. They just didn’t know. They just thought, oh, you only can do karate or this or that, or whatever, the standard violin. But seeing the birding and the other things can just bring that excitement to the conversation that’s so much more real. And I think that connection is so much more real, too. So, I don’t know. I just felt like that was really beautiful.

KENDEL: I just see that it opens up in them, oh, here’s all the things about me. We don’t have to stay on the surface level, too. I feel like maybe childhood gets viewed more like a procedure, like you go to school, and then what are your extracurriculars?

Another thing that really helped build my confidence over the years was literally soccer. In Ontario, Pam, it’s just what kids do in the summer. And so, they’ll say, my kid hates it, but it’s what there is to do and it’s good for them to be active, whatever the response was. And we already paid for it, so we’re staying in it.

And when I could see that and then reflect on my own childhood experiences of that pressure to stay in things, or the questions of, what would I have been doing alternatively if I had more choice? Those all just really helped me get over the concern of what it looks like to others, because it looks great to have the soccer trophy photo at the end of the summer, but when you talk to that parent, they’re like, “We had to drag them there every weekend or every Saturday.” And so, I’m like, you know what? And then that’s kind of a modern thing too, is all of all of social media, right? Getting past what it looks like from one photo and really not letting that determine what you’re going to do with your own family.

And, like I was saying, it uncovers the authentic level of adults, too, when they realize, oh yes, those are all valid things. I’ll share little things that I’m up to.

PAM: I, too, have a third of a season of soccer experience! But the piece in that area that stood out for me, you mentioned, Kendel, when you’re in those conversations with someone and you are sharing your excitement. You are excited as you share or like, this is so cool, they’re so into this thing! That almost gives them permission to release their judgment, because they’ve either got typical questions, what grade are you in? We encountered people whose favorite question once they knew we were homeschooling was, “Do you like your teacher?” And the laughter, the, “Ha ha. I set them up.”

But, oh my gosh, when we just share that bigger picture that doesn’t look like school, but we are enthusiastic and excited about our kids’ engagement with whatever the thing is, so often, that lights them up and almost gives them permission to start thinking about and sharing. And we can ask, what do you love to do for fun? We can just share those bits and then turn it over to them. And so often, that would just leave them for a second to think like, oh, for fun. I have work and I have this. And sometimes even our extracurricular activities as adults feel more like work, because we’ve scheduled them in. I’ve got to go do X, Y, Z. Just that reminder that, oh yeah, I enjoy doing that actually just brings back a little more to it.

And there was one other thing that I, I wanted to bring out again. When you were talking about having the list of, of things, oh, we can do this and this, and then you your days are full with busyness with these activities and they mention something that they’re interested in and then it takes a while for that to maybe bubble up. It took some time.

And you were talking about just freeing up the time to let that bubble up and become more of a priority, versus whatever list we have in our head that we think they would enjoy, et cetera. But how giving them the space to think about it and choose things that they’re interested in, but then to be able to engage in them soon, they learn so much more about themselves that way. Because this is something that’s catching their attention. And then when they can engage with it, they learn. Do I like the thing? Do I want to engage for a bit and quit? And the level of detail. How do I like to engage with this thing? Oh, we’ll try it this way. I’ll play violin with my grandfather for a while and that’s really cool. I’d like to dive into this a little bit more.

What we’re allowing with that space is for them to discover themselves, back to your gardener metaphor. We’re nurturing and helping them become the plants that they want to be. But unless they’re following the things that they’re interested in and exploring them the way they would like to explore it, and then taking what happens and deciding the next thing that they want to do with it or however, it’s hard for them to figure out who they want to be.

We have all these ideas and we can bombard them and let’s try this out, let’s try this out, let’s try this out. But when you give the space for it to bubble up within themselves, I just feel it’s so much richer and it’s just so much more fun to hang around with them when they’re doing stuff that they’re super into doing.

KENDEL: And I can see with the violin, even, if she finds a style she likes and her instructor’s amazing, but you don’t need to feel concreted into, well, you’ve said you wanted to. Even in terms of, if that no longer becomes a good fit, and she’s like, I know the basics now, I want to take it on my own.

Because part of part of my coming to all this was asking actual adults, too, what did you do as a kid? Did you want to? Do you resent it? What I found out was, of course, anything that they felt forced to do, even if their parents had good intention, it doesn’t stick with them through adulthood.

And it was the things that they really pushed for on their own once they finally felt of sense of autonomy that still has impacted their life or they still incorporated in their life in some way. And so, yeah, not getting stuck in anything, too. Oh, if that instructor’s not a good fit, let’s find a mentor or someone for you to play with. Or, oh, you enjoy playing as a group. Let’s find some other kids. Whatever it may be, letting them really know that they have choice in what it turns into as well, because then it’s going to be so much more rich and beautiful than we could plan for.

ANNA: Yeah, so much. And the piece that you said about that it may end and we don’t know what she’s getting out of it and what she’s going to take into the next thing, and so, just not having an energy around that, I think is really important.

ERIKA: I just loved it. I was just like, yes!

ANNA: Yes. We love it. Oh my goodness.

KENDEL: We’re focused on the violin, but what it’s bringing up, the first point that Pam was talking about, it brought up to me that I’m really being intentional about how when I am sharing about what both of them are doing, you were talking about the excitement you can get, and I’m making sure that I’m not verbally, or body language-wise, insinuating that because she’s taking a formal extracurricular activity with an instructor at the home, that that’s no more valid.

And so, I’m purposely being careful to make all of the experiences equally as important. And that’s more new for me, because I’m a big people pleaser, so it was giving people what they wanted to hear, or if it’s conventionally “Violin?! Wow, that’s amazing. Tell me all about it,” equally bragging up whatever small world my son created that week, or whatever he was doing, so it’s not seeing anything as on this hierarchy as well, because it’s about, like you were saying, Pam, the passion behind it, the interest, and you’ve all been saying what they’re getting out of it. That’s what’s important no matter what the activity is.

PAM: I think that is something that I found so interesting, because, even for interests that look conventional to people and that they can think, oh yes, that’s a thing. Like music lessons. So often, unschooled kids are coming at it with such a different perspective and energy, because they have agency in it. They’re not being told, “Yes, this is good for you. We really think you’ll enjoy it. You should have fun, you should practice,” with some future outcome in mind. Versus an unschooled kid who’s like, “Oh. That looks really interesting. I want to try it out.”

And like you were saying, even in her art class or her violin, the teachers, and that is a comment that I think we’ve all heard over the years when our kids engage in something in a more conventional setting, the teachers or instructors are just like, wow. It’s such a different energy. It’s such a different energy they’re showing up with. They are actually curious about learning the thing versus putting in the time because their parents brought them here and they need to stay. It’s just night and day.

When I think back on sharing that, that was such a beautiful point, Kendel, not to be more effusive about things that look more conventional, the people-pleasing aspect. It was good for me to remind myself that for the most part, number one, if I’m just meeting them and I’m never going to meet them again, whatever. But if it’s somebody who’s a little bit more part of our lives, then over time, they will see that there are various things that our kids are interested in and that we are just as excited about all the different things rather than the one that looks a little bit more conventional. And then they’re like, “Oh, she’s going to be a violinist in an orchestra,” kind of comments. It’s like, oh, maybe. We’ll see. I didn’t even think about that!

ANNA: All of the predictions.

PAM: But yeah, that “over time” piece I found just to be so helpful so that I could just ground in how we are now and what we’re doing now. And then next time it’ll be something different, et cetera.

And then I can just imagine that they’re building their picture of what our lives look like, because I can’t explain what our lives look like in one little conversation. So, it’s fun just to think of it as planting the seeds as we go.

ANNA: Yeah. I love that. One of the things I wanted to talk about, because I know that it’s something that you love, Kendel, is just cherishing the glimmers. And I love that, too. But I thought maybe you could tell us a little bit about what that looks like for you in your life and how it impacts your energy and connections, because I’m all about that. How do we keep that energy of connection? Because I think our kids really feed off of that, as well.

KENDEL: Yeah, the term glimmers, I think I came across it over the pandemic, probably on TikTok or Instagram. The basic idea is that it’s the opposite of triggers. And I think it gave an immediate word to something I was already doing as more of a gratitude practice of just finding those little tiny treasures among the mundane. Life can sometimes feel mundane. The chores, whatever, whatever. If we can find those little pockets of glimmers, it really helps build gratitude and contentment and peace.

And one way I love doing it, personally, I know, Anna, you are a photographer as well, and you have a really awesome camera. I don’t know what lenses you have, but birds and the moon and it’s just amazing. But I love to, say we’re walking down a path that’s seemingly all the same long grass on both sides of the path, I’ll be on a treasure hunt for that little purple thistle and that cool old fence post or whatever, and I’ll actually photograph it as a kind of gratitude practice.

And so, that’s a nice visual of like, it’s just a field of grass, but what little treasures, what little glimmers are lying in there? And so, I apply that just to everyday life, to build in gratitude and to be more in the moment. I can definitely always be far into the future in my head and it helps me ground back into the moment and really be thankful.

And another thing that recently I came across on, I think it was Wonder-Led Life’s Instagram feed. It was a quote that is, “It’s often more about what we aren’t doing than what we are doing.” And that was very similar to me. Again, it, like glimmers, gave a word to something that was meaningful to me in a way I go about life. So, that quote, it gave words to what I had been feeling lately, which was often reflecting on how our lives are quite different than the status quo of our culture. I would often be like, what would we be doing right now if we lived a more conventional life?

And realizing that by applying that, it’s often more about what we aren’t doing than what we are doing at different times throughout my days and weeks, it really focused me in on the moment and like, yes, we are doing this and this and this right now, but alternatively, we could be doing this. I found that really helpful. And I don’t know, it’s not groundbreaking, but for any parents out there, if they just implement that quote or that way of thinking for the various moments throughout their week, it really does build gratitude for all of the amazing things that this lifestyle can be.

So, whether it’s our slow morning routine together, instead of, well, what are we doing? Instead of focusing on that, you can think about, well, we’re not rushing, we’re not stressed, we’re not begging not to go somewhere or dragging the kids out of bed. So, it’s more about what we aren’t doing in that moment than technically what we are doing. And I think that you can really turn that on the flip side as well, and a lot of times we can compare our children to school children, our nieces and nephews or extended family and friends, and you have to realize that it’s often more about what they aren’t doing than what they are doing as well in the public school system or whatever.

What is lacking, even though, oh, wow, they’re reading really well or they’re getting that grade or whatever, that’s what they are doing, but that’s not meaning that there’s not this whole huge body of things that they don’t know and they’re missing out on or aren’t experiencing.

And so, in our home educating group in our local area, there’s quite a few people that come to home educating from school for various reasons. And so, when they start to feel that, am I enough? Am I doing good enough for my child? I’m comparing them to the kids that stayed in school that they’re still friends with, but I remind them there’s this whole mountain of things that they aren’t getting or that you’re able to provide them, social and emotional safety and mental health and all of these things that are so much more important than the academics. And it’ll all fall in line once all those things are taken care of.

So, that statement and the glimmers are looking for those little pockets of joy that bring you into the moment and the gratitude that comes from that. Thinking of all of the things that people just don’t even maybe know about that you get to experience day to day, which is so special.

ANNA: I love that piece, because I think for me, it’s the same. It’s, what are those things that bring me into the moment? And you’re right, photography is something I love and it is that. I feel like I notice things, because I’m thinking. And I just started recently painting more, and so I’m like, it’s the same thing. I look and I’m like, oh, I see the textures of that. And with the kids, it’s just noticing the little thing that lights them up or just the small, even mundane pieces of the day. I don’t know. When you bring that gratitude with it and noticing those little pieces, I just found it brought so much joy and connection, because I feel like everybody feels more seen in that way when we can notice those little things about the people in our life.

ERIKA: I think it’s that reminder to get out of the thinking brain more. It’s just so easy. We have so many things potentially to be thinking about and worrying about and all the things when we have children and when we’re thinking about learning and all of these things, and so, I just love glimmers as that reminder. The intention to be looking for glimmers through the day is just that reminder to get back out of my thinking brain into the moment, looking for things that just bring you some feeling of connection and joy. It feels really good.

PAM: I was just going to say it helped me feel grounded, like when you were talking about it, that really, it re-grounds me in the fact that everything is a choice. It reminds us that when we’re doing the things we’re doing, even if it feels routine, even if it feels mundane, to remember that this is a choice.

Just seeing the little things, noticing those, it’s like, oh yes, look, I can just celebrate again that we are choosing to do this versus the other things.

Because you can get like, “This is our day, this is what we do. We do this every morning,” and you can forget to celebrate that piece that, these are all the things that we’re not doing, because this is why. It grounds you back into your why, why we want to be here, why we’re making these choices. So, yeah, it’s such a fun practice, I think.

KENDEL: Yeah, I was just going to say, giving that word to it. I love what Erika said, it brings you out of your thinking mind, because I can get real stuck in there, and into the moment. But I also think it just translated throughout my life as a framework.

Because it’ll be, for instance, friendships and connections. I think thinking in that way has given me more guilt about being very intentional with what we do choose to do and with our limited amount of time for social time. You’re looking almost for people as they’re a glimmer in my life. Where am I going to cash in my limited amount of time in this world?

And you’re wanting it to be something that’s going to leave you energized and not depleted. So, it definitely just has been a framework of, I think, because my personality is the people pleaser, it helped me be like, it’s an active thing. Instead of feeling guilt and shame for being picky and choosy about, and intentional about your life, that is actively choosing something for our well-being, for our happiness, as opposed to feeling like it’s something you should be ashamed of doing because you just notice that you want to be filling your life with as much joy and happiness as possible in your limited amount of time. And so, you’re not settling for things. I think it’s really been a whole framework shift for me, if that makes sense.

PAM: Oh, thank you so much for joining us, Kendel. It was such a pleasure to speak with you. I’m really excited to share this with our listeners. And thank you, listeners, for joining us as well.

We hope you enjoyed our conversation and maybe even picked up a nugget or two of connection or insight that you can use on your own unschooling journey.

And if you would like to have more conversations like this more often, we invite you to join us in the Living Joyfully Network. It is such a supportive community. It’s full of conversations like this, all about the things big and small that we encounter in our unschooling lives. And you won’t have to preface every comment or question with, “I enjoy spending time with my kids.” So, learn more and join us at living joyfully.ca/network. We wish everyone a lovely week and look forward to welcoming you into the Network! Bye, everyone!

ANNA, ERIKA, AND KENDEL: Bye!