Being willing to expose a weakness or a flaw or admitting a mistrake… uhm, sorry, A mistake allows people to know you are real. And real matters when building trust.

Dave Young:

Welcome to the Empire Builders Podcast, teaching business owners the not so secret techniques that took famous businesses from mom and pop to major brands. Stephen Semple is a marketing consultant, story collector, and storyteller. I’m Stephen’s sidekick and business partner, Dave Young. Before we get into today’s episode, a word from our sponsor, which is, well, it’s us, but we’re highlighting ads we’ve written and produced for our clients, so here’s one of those.

[Tommy Cool Air Ad]

Stephen Semple:

Hey, everyone. Well, we’ve given Dave the day off and I have with me a very, very special guest, Matthew Burns. Say hello, Matthew.

Matthew Burns:

Hello, everybody. Thanks for inviting me, Steve. This is great.

Stephen Semple:

Yeah, so here’s the reason why I wanted to bring Matthew on and what we’re going to talk about is Matthew and I had an awesome experience in the fall, and we traveled to Western Canada with Gary Bernier, and we did a number of presentations and met with about 50 business owners out in the Edmonton area. And we’re talking about a number of different things around marketing and whatnot. And one of the areas that Matthew presented that people really had a lot of engagement around was this whole idea of building of trust and specifically the role that social media can do around building of trust. And the part that I love the most was how you started that whole conversation, that whole idea that we talk about in terms of the trust conundrum. So I think that’s what you should start with in terms of talking about.

Matthew Burns:

It’s this whole idea of when do you actually gain the trust of the target, whether it’s a friend, whether it’s a family member, whether it’s a colleague or a client or a customer. We do a little thing where we trick our audience and we make them answer questions and we say, “Listen, so is trust important?” And we know trust is important, but we ask and everybody says, “Yeah, yeah, trust is important. It’s a great thing. We need it.” And it’s important for the sale. And they’ll say, “Yeah, it’s important for the sale.” Okay, perfect. So how do you build trust? What is it that you do with your business that builds trust? And inevitably we get the same answers. You get, oh, we show up on time and we do what we say we’re going to do.

Stephen Semple:

Treat them with respect.

Matthew Burns:

Treat them with respect. So we’re like, “Okay, that’s awesome. And never stop doing those things. That’s incredible.” So you’re doing all those things and you want them to trust you, but when do you do those things? When do those things happen? Before the sale or after the sale? Because remember, we’re aiming for trust being really important for the sale itself. So when do those things happen? And they’re always like, “Oh.” And I said, “Because you said you wanted to be trusted before the sale, but to be trusted, you need to deliver on your promise. Well, that comes after the sale. You need trust for the sale.” So this is a paradoxical loop. It’s just going to keep feeding into itself. I need it beforehand, but we don’t actually get it until afterwards.

So trust comes second. True, honest, trust comes second. It’s once you’ve delivered on your promise. It’s once you’ve engaged with the client and delivered what you said you’re going to deliver, whether it was even just I’m going to call you back on Tuesday and you call back on Tuesday. Okay, I can trust now that he’s going to do or she’s going to do exactly what I’m asking for. That’s the conundrum. I think the big thing is how do you circumvent the conundrum? How do you get to be trusted before the sale? I’ll ask the listeners, if the client came in, the customer came in and they trusted you implicitly, what would happen to the sale? What would happen to that process?

Stephen Semple:

Everything becomes easier, faster. A lot of what goes on in the sales process is the establishing and building of trust, and it’s trusting two things. Can I trust your capabilities and do I trust your soul? It’s really those two. And really the trusting of the soul is more important because if I really trust your soul, I also trust that if you didn’t have the capabilities, you wouldn’t steer me wrong. Right?

Matthew Burns:

Exactly.

Stephen Semple:

What do we need to do to create the environment where a prospect who’s never met us comes walking in through the door going, I trust ABC plumbing, I trust this air conditioning, I trust this lawyer, I trust this account, whatever it is, I trust you guys, and I’ve never worked with you and I’ve never met you, how do we build that environment?

Matthew Burns:

It’s a tricky scenario. The reason why it’s tricky is the only way we truly get trust is by giving it, which is a weird thing because how do you give it if you don’t get it? How do I give it if I’m not getting it? So somebody’s got to take a risk. There’s a risk involved. And the easiest way that we can risk, this is easy when you do it and you’re good at it and you practice it, but until then, it’s really difficult, but it’s really easy to do it by showing a weakness or a flaw through vulnerability. Being vulnerable with your audience allows you to garner trust with them, because if you are willing to put on the line something, anything, and we can come up with a whole bunch of examples and scenarios, but you give up a weakness or a flaw of your own, you let them have it freely with no expectation in return of anything and trust that they’re going to not hurt you with it, they’re going to trust you back. And this sounds convoluted.

Stephen Semple:

Because you can even do it with offer. So it’s this whole idea of extending of trust. I will earn trust. So a lot of people with their warranties and guarantees, yeah, we warranty it except we don’t trust that you’re being abusive to it, so we’re going to give all these exceptions because we don’t trust you. So our founding partner, Roy Williams, worked with one hour heating and air conditioning really back in the early days and worked with them to create this offer. So here’s an example of an offer. If we are not on time, the job is done for free. But who defines on time? The homeowner, not the technician. Now, could you get a homeowner who lies and you’re actually three minutes early and they go, “No, you’re late.” The homeowner says you’re late, you’re late.

Matthew Burns:

That’s it.

Stephen Semple:

That’s how much we trust you. Do they get screwed the odd time? Sure they do, but it gives them big benefit because they earn massive trust in the marketplace because they’ve extended trust.

Matthew Burns:

Dude, that’s a fantastic example. It’s no different than the Kesslers jeweler story that Roy’s talked to us about in the past too, where the center cut diamond, he guaranteed the center cut diamond for life. And what were the caveats? Nothing, nothing. If they come back and they lost their center cut diamond, they replaced it.

Stephen Semple:

The only caveat was you had to come in once a year to get it inspected because the prongs do wear out. But that’s no different than saying, “Hey, I’ll warranty your car. You just got to change the oil every once in a while.”

Matthew Burns:

Right. It’s a huge trust plate because they’re giving up of themselves.

Stephen Semple:

But let’s talk a little bit more about, because we specifically want to talk about social media. So let’s talk a little bit more about this concept of parasocial relationships. That’s really the meaty one that we can use in social media. So for those who are not familiar, a parasocial relationship is this thing where emotionally somebody feels like they are your friend, a member of your tribe, they trust you, and they really feel like they know you and you’ve never met. And Matt, I’ll let you go through how you build the parasocial relationships, and at the end, I’ll talk about the psychology on it, but there’s some real science behind it

Matthew Burns:

So everybody understands, anybody alive, I don’t know anybody who has never heard of Kim Kardashian.

Stephen Semple:

Kim who?

Matthew Burns:

Yeah, yeah, right. Nice try. The Kardashian family is this sought after brand that has been created intelligently through the crafting of parasocial relationships. And it’s because you believe you know them. If somebody says Kim Kardashian, things come to your mind right away, what she’s good at and what she’s bad at, how she’s going to react well and when she’s going to react poorly. And that’s all been crafted very well for TV. And so it’s no different than a soccer hooligan who believes they know their favorite player because over time they believe that they’re best buddies, they believe that I have every right to yell and scream and call you, blah, blah, blah, put in the beep expletive here because you didn’t do the thing that I wanted you to do, even though that guy has never been able to kick with his left foot. You know what I mean? And so it’s because they know both sides of the game.

Dave Young:

Hey, Stephen, I want to interrupt ourselves. That’s not proper grammar, but I did it anyway.

Stephen Semple:

There you go.

Dave Young:

In lieu of our commercial this time, I thought maybe you and I could just chat for a minute.

Stephen Semple:

Absolutely. Sounds great.

Dave Young:

Our goal with the Empire Builders Podcast is to talk about business building strategies that have worked for people that started out small and became empires. We want to help you. If you’re a business owner and you’re listening to the Empire Builders Podcast because you want to build your own empire, we’ve got a pretty sweet offer for you, and that is to just spend 90 minutes chatting with us. It’s not a sales call on our part. It’s a 90-minute session where beforehand you do a little bit of homework and give us some basic background information about your business, and then we get on a Zoom call and we learn a little bit more about you, and we give you the very best advice we can give in a 90-minute session.

Stephen Semple:

And I’m going to say it is miles away from it. I hate these dog and pony sales calls where I’m great, I’m amazing, here’s samples of our work. You should hire us, which is part of the reason that makes us different is the fact that there is the scorecard and questionnaire that goes out that the owner sends back to us because it allows us to take a couple of days, do some research, put some thought, and come with some solid recommendations because it’s my belief that if we can provide some good insights that somebody may be more interested in hiring us. And certainly that’s a way better experience than meeting with some sales guy who runs you through a dog and pony. It’s lots of fun. It’s great value. People get a recording of it. I highly recommend people take us up on the offer.

Dave Young:

Easy to find us. You’re listening to our podcast, so find a way to request your 90-minute session with us. Looking forward to talking to you. Let’s get back to the story.

Stephen Semple:

Back to the story. Here’s what I want to add here. It’s not like if you ever asked somebody that they would say, “Oh yeah, I know Kim Kardashian and I are friends.” So this is happening at a deep subconscious level, but it’s a real thing. It’s a real thing that’s been studied by social psychologists. So I just wanted to add that.

Matthew Burns:

No, and I’m glad you did because that’s a very crucial point. The whole idea here is that what we know… You think about the person you trust most in the world. Let’s put it to that test. For the listeners, think about the person you trust most and think about five good things you know about them. Five good qualities, they’re trustworthy… They’re trustworthy, that’s funny. They show up on time. They’ll help you out when you need to move. They never ask for anything in return. All the good things that you know about them.

Stephen Semple:

They serve the best whiskey.

Matthew Burns:

They serve the best whiskey. Thank you, Steve. Yeah, that was not a gratuitous reach out for… Thank you, Steve. You serve the best whiskey. Yeah, but all these awesome things about them. Now, think about the person that you trust the most. And now I guarantee you can tell me the five things that they’re not good at. They’re often late, they complain about the mundane, whatever those things are, but you know both the most awesome things about them and you also know their weaknesses and their flaws, but that means that you can trust them because you know them.

So parasocial relationships are about getting to know somebody or have the feeling that you know them well enough that you can then determine an outcome. And if you can determine an outcome, pretend that the outcome or think that the outcome, you now have trust in the action and behavior. So if they say, “I’m going to show up on time,” but they never do, you can trust that they’re going to be late. My best friend who is lactose intolerant, I can trust if he has Dairy Queen is going to make the room smell bad. I can trust those things, and that’s a real form of trust. So how do we create that for a clientele base that don’t know us yet?

Stephen Semple:

But let’s explore one thing a little further before you go into this.

Matthew Burns:

Okay.

Stephen Semple:

So parasocial relationships come from shared experiences, shared beliefs, shared weaknesses, those are the things. And the reason why they happen is for the history of mankind, other than really the last 20 years, is if I knew your kids’ names, I knew that your kid has got this one learning disability, and I know what church you go to, and I know all of this stuff about you, it meant you were a member of my tribe. You are a member of my tribe. You are a member of my community, which also means you knew me and we are friends. And the more open that you were and the more I knew about you, yes, the more we are in the same tribe, on the same side, and I trust you.

Matthew Burns:

Correct.

Stephen Semple:

And this happens because for millennia, after millennia after millennia, the only people you knew these things about, you were in those relationships. So today, when you learn those things, guess what? All of this genetic stuff kicks in that says, “Hey, we’re members of the same tribe, but we have an opportunity today to build that more than ever through the use of social media.” So the Kardashians, for example, it drives us nuts. They share every fricking weakness to the degree where it’s like, “I can’t believe she’s sharing that again.” But what they know is that’s what builds those bonds.

Matthew Burns:

That’s right. That’s what makes it trustworthy.

Stephen Semple:

Right. So now you’re an RV dealer, what do you do on social media to build those bonds?

Matthew Burns:

Oh, man, you’ve got an awesome client there though. Steve’s got a client that he sells used RVs, so we’re not talking fresh from the manufacturer. He’s got RVs that have been used. And so you think yourself as an RV dealer who’s selling used RVs, what are you going to do? Well, I’m got to clean it all up. I’m going to repair everything. I going to patch it and I’m going to make it perfect. Then I’m going to tell everybody that’s awesome. That’s what you do. Not your client. Your client said, “Nah, you know what we’re going to do? We’re going to leave it exactly how it is. We’re going to show you all the holes. We’re going to show you that this thing’s dirty. We’re going to talk to you about how it was used.”

Stephen Semple:

They clean them up and make them look awesome, but they’ll point out if there’s a flaw.

Matthew Burns:

But their social media shows the flaws before they fix the last thing they go, “Guys, just so you know, this was a problem. And if you wanted that part to be perfect, this isn’t the trailer for you.”

Stephen Semple:

That’s a very good point, but everybody knows that that was a problem.

Matthew Burns:

Exactly. And the problem can be as much as just it was overly used from a smoker so now it’s got a smoky smell. And it’s amazing because you did tell me a story that’s a little bit racy where it was hot box. It was completely marijuana smoke and infused. They talked about it. They said, “This is what it is.” And they said, “If you’re a marijuana smoker, you can’t wreck this trailer. This is the one for you.” That thing sold fast and it wasn’t moving because they were afraid to say it. Then they gave the weakness and then it sold. And to me, that’s the power of being able to share. We have a plumber in Maryland, but when we shared this whole idea of sharing weakness with them and their social media, which they had an incredible social media campaign before we even got to them, they really do understand the idea of building relationships and community, but we shared the whole idea of sharing weakness.

And Josh, it’s a husband and wife ownership, and the husband, Josh, says he takes a picture of his wife when they’re at the radio station recording their ads that we’ve written for them, and she hates it. I’m tell you guys right now, she hates it. She does not like the sound of her voice. She doesn’t want to go to the radio station. She hates it. And while she’s reading one of her lines, Josh takes a picture and it’s her looking awfully angsty. She did not want to be there. She was uncomfortable. And he posts it on social media and says, “Which one of us do you think doesn’t want to be here?” And she’s recording for the world and shares this, and that’s one of their highest engaging posts because people are like, “Oh my God, I don’t like to hear my voice either.” The connection points are incredible, that shared-

Stephen Semple:

That shared weakness.

Matthew Burns:

Yeah, and shared experience, right? Oh man, I had to do that once too. I hate it. They weren’t now known as the plumber in town. They were known as the human who has these traits. That’s incredible. Now I get to know you. I get to feel what it’s like to be you. And I’ve never used you before, but we’re kindred. We have something in common. And that’s the weakness that they shared. It was incredible.

Stephen Semple:

So what you want to do is go check out No Bull B-U-L-L, No Bull RV social media, because what you’ll see is lots of recordings of Rick and his staff pointing out the weaknesses and the flaws in these trailers. There’s also great interviews with the staff where they tell some hilarious stories where you just sit there and go, “Oh my God, I cannot believe you did that.” But again, makes them human, makes us connect and makes you think back at that stupid trip that you did at some point, right? And the other one is Seaside Plumbing in Maryland, which is Josh and Lauren, and take a look at the things that they’ve done and the vulnerability that they put out there. But this is how you use social media. Social media is not about, look how great we are and the perfect job we’ve done.

Matthew Burns:

We got a special on this week.

Stephen Semple:

Social media is where you can build those bonds. And here’s the thing I want to say, people today, they multi-channel their research. They go and they look at your Facebook, they go and look at your social media posts, they go and they look at your reviews, they go and they look at your website. They look at all of that stuff before coming in through the door. And if you have social media where you’ve said, “I’m going to use this tool to build trust,” it’s going to make a big difference in your business.

Matthew Burns:

And if anybody who’s feeling that it’s a little bit… Because we’re not trying to steal trust from people, but what you’re doing is you’re actually building an online relationship. You’re building this relationship with garners trust, and it has to be reciprocal. You have to give of yourself to get back from them. They’re not going to trust you unless you’re giving of yourself. And that’s the big lesson.

Stephen Semple:

And here’s the little piece of secret sauce.

Matthew Burns:

Here we go.

Stephen Semple:

How do you know when you’re doing it is when you feel uncomfortable hitting that post button?

Matthew Burns:

Oh, yes, yes.

Stephen Semple:

Right. The first time Rick did that, he was really nervous about doing it. And in fact, the first time he did it, what I said to him is, give me a trailer that you’re ready to take back to auction because you haven’t been able to move it and let’s do this. And we did it and it sold. And he was like, “That was really interesting.” But he was nervous to do it at first.

Matthew Burns:

That’s right.

Stephen Semple:

If you’re nervous to do it, if it feels uncomfortable, you know you’re hitting that vulnerability button and pray towards that. Don’t run away from it.

Matthew Burns:

That’s it, 100%.

Stephen Semple:

There you go, guys. Use that idea for your social media. And what’ll happen is, here’s the weird thing that’ll happen. You’ll have people coming in and literally coming in where they’ve already decided they’re buying from you.

Matthew Burns:

And if you’re not sure how to do it and you want a little bit more advice, I know Stephen gives up 90 minutes of his time for free to talk about it.

Stephen Semple:

Yeah. Take up one of the starter sessions and we could specifically talk about social media. I’ll make sure that we hone that in onto the call.

Matthew Burns:

Only if there’s whiskey, only if there’s whiskey.

Stephen Semple:

All right, thanks Matthew.

Matthew Burns:

Awesome. Thanks buddy. Appreciate it. This was fun.

Dave Young:

Thanks for listening to the podcast. Please share us, subscribe on your favorite podcast app and leave us a big fat juicy five star rating and review. And if you have any questions about this or any other podcast episode, email to questions@theempirebuilders podcast.com.ZÅAZ