Fieldnotes - Dogs in Our World
Julie Forbes: Dogs & Leadership
In this episode of Dogs in Our World, host Adam Winston sits down with Julie Forbes, host and producer of the Dog Show with Julie Forbes, to explore the theme of “Dogs and Leadership.” Julie shares her extensive experience in dog training and behavior, emphasizing the importance of non-verbal communication, presence, and emotional tone in effective leadership with dogs. They discuss common misconceptions about leadership styles, including the outdated “alpha” model, and highlight the value of motivation, fun, and individualized approaches tailored to each dog’s unique temperament and needs.
Julie and Adam also explore how lessons learned from working with dogs can translate to human leadership and personal growth. The episode concludes with a focus on self-awareness, authenticity, and the power of being present, offering listeners practical wisdom to enhance their relationships with their dogs and others.
Listeners are encouraged to reflect on their own leadership styles and consider how they can foster healthier, more respectful connections with their canine companions. The episode also provides information on where to listen to Julie’s Dog Show and invites the audience to stay connected through Dogs in Our World’s social channels and newsletter.
Read on for key takeaways, resource links, and the full transcript.
Key Takeaways- Leadership with dogs requires awareness of non-verbal communication and presence.
- The outdated “alpha” dominance model is misleading; a parental leadership approach is healthier.
- Every dog is unique; leadership and motivation must be tailored to individual temperaments and needs.
- Fear is an ineffective motivator; positive motivation and fun foster better learning and relationships.
- Setting a calm and consistent emotional tone is key to effective leadership
- The Dog Show with Julie Forbes — Julie’s radio show and podcast with over 400 episodes.
- Sensitive Dog — Julie Forbes’ dog training and behavior consulting website.
Introduction
Welcome to episode number five of Dogs in Our World. We’re going learn about the
topic of Dogs and Leadership. Stay tuned at the end of today’s show for some special
announcements I have to share with you about upgrades and new offerings from
dogsinourworld.com
Ok. The first part of today’s show will revisit a familiar term you may remember
from our first episode and we’ll also better understand why leadership is necessary. In
part 2, we’ll talk about the importance of motivation and we’ll briefly address another
JULIE FORBES:
DOGS AND LEADERSHIP
5
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huge debate in the dog training world, and we’ll learn about the importance of having
fun. In the final part of today’s show, our guest will share with us ways that we can position
ourselves to be better leaders.
Ok. Let’s get started…
Part 1: Dogs and Leadership
Julie: My name is Julie Forbes. I’m the host and producer of the Dog Show with Julie Forbes, which is a local radio show here in Western Washington and also a podcast on iTunes and on our website, which is dogradioshow.com, SoundCloud, and on our Facebook page. I’ve been on-air for 8 years, I think, now. It was 2009.
Adam: I actually did the math. I looked at your website and, yes, and I did the math. It’s been 8 years.
Julie: 424 episodes I think. It’s so fun. Like you, I like to talk about dogs. And, it’s interesting, because a lot of times people will ask “it’s an hour show? don’t you run out of things to talk about?” Actually, it’s the opposite. The more people that I talk with, the more there is to talk about. It’s an educational show. Sort of an intellectual conversation, but all somehow connected to dogs. I also work locally here in Seattle and somewhat via skype helping people with training and behavior. My company is called sensitive dog.
Adam: And do you have a website?
Julie: sensitivedog.com.
Adam: Do you have any other books or anything that the listeners can check out if they want to learn more about you?
Julie: So, I am just about finished writing my first book. It’s been almost 5 years of working and researching on it. And, it’s really truly just about done. I’ve said that many times over the years. It’s a humbling experience writing a book. But, I’m excited about that and it’s a bit of a hybrid of the book. I weave my years of experience working with people and their dogs. And, also my own personal experience as a human being. As well as research that I did mostly on leadership, which is what we’ll be talking about today. And, what dogs can teach us about leadership and ourselves. Because they’re non-verbal, to be effective with dogs, we have to be aware of our non-verbal communication, which means being aware of and in our bodies, which is not a given for people. Our relationship with our bodies is complex as well. It’s geared more towards women, but the conversation certainly isn’t. So, it’s been a challenge to weave all that information together in a way that makes sense and that’s what I finally figured out.
As Julie and I began our conversation, she immediately addressed a topic that should be familiar to our listeners. Remember when Erik, from Wolf Haven International, and I talked about the term Alpha and how viewing ourselves or dogs as such can essentially lead to an unbalanced relationship? I also said that the subject is nearly unavoidable when learning about dogs. Here’s Julie’s take…
Julie: Well, working with dog behavior sort of requires a focus on the topic of leadership and really the question of it. Because, in this industry, and I’m sure you know with your experience in training as well, the industry is not regulated. It’s trying to be regulated, but it’s not regulated for better or worse. There’s a lot of confusion and a lot of disagreement around what is right in leadership as it pertains to dogs. So, you know the word you hear a lot is “alpha”, which has a negative connotation to it now. There’s a lot of pushback, which makes perfect sense. There’s some interesting history around that as far as the ideas that were marketed in the context of our relationship with dogs and sort of looking at models of wolf packs and deriving how we should be with dogs and based off that. But, the research that was done and the model that was taken from that particular research was done on captive wolves. So, they were forced pack. And this was spelled out actually very clearly in Temple Grandin’s book Animals Make Us Human.
Adam: And episode one of Dogs in Our World. (laughs)
Julie: Nice. So, it’s interesting that in forced packs there is more of a rigid hierarchy that forms, because they’re not related…
Julie: So, this whole idea of Alpha and this sort of ladder structure of leadership, which you can see, in this country anyway, applied everywhere. Corporations, Religion
Adam: School.
Julie: Exactly. And, um, and then in the dog training world. And, it’s interesting to me why the research done on captive wolves was the one marketed to the general public and not the research done on wolves in the wild. Because, imagine the difference. What a different conversation we would be in in the world of the dog training, if it wasn’t “alpha”, but more of a parental understanding. More of a parental dynamic, which we can relate to. There’s ways that can get us into trouble.
Julie: Dogs aren’t human children, but there’s a lot of those dynamics that are really natural. You are responsible for your dog’s wellbeing. You are therefore the one in charge. Whether you like it or not, that is your role. They need us to be. This is a human world and lot of dogs would feel overwhelmed, if they felt like they were in charge even if they tried to be, just like kids. So, that’s kind of why did I focus on this. Because, it’s part of the conversation in coaching people in their relationship with dogs.
Adam: If you’re listening, right now, and thinking to yourself “well, I don’t have a dog” or “I’m not in a position of leadership”. Then, I want you think about how nearly every time Julie mentions the word “dogs” in this episode about Leadership, you can likely get away with replacing the word “dogs” with “humans”. As I’ve said before, this show is for everyone whether you have a dog or not. As we continue, think about how the stuff we’re talking about and how it can be applied to those of you who are not just dog owners, but maybe parents or employees.
Adam: I really want to learn and I want to share with everybody who’s listening about how we could either be better leaders or how we can better work with those that we serve.
Julie: Mmhmm. Yeah. And that alone is sort of a philosophy of leadership where you are of service to those you lead. Versus maybe a polar opposite would be a bully type style. I’m going to keep you down so that I maintain my position at the top. That’s rooted in insecurity. It’s really not authentic true leadership. I think there’s a lot more out about bullying types of leadership. It’s unfortunately effective, because it targets people that are afraid and that’s how the bully stays in power.
Adam: And leadership is a skill that has to be practiced, right. If we’re someone who hasn’t had much experience as a leader or in leadership positions. Do we have to be leaders?
Julie: Depends on the dogs. Some dogs don’t need much. They don’t test boundaries much. They’re just easy. They’re easy going. They don’t have much in the way of challenges. They’re happy when someone new comes over to the house. They’re not reactive on leash. The things that many dogs are challenged with. It really depends on the individual. You could turn it to the human world. Well, does a child need a parent to be in charge? Well, yeah. If the child is sick, who pays for it? Who acquires the food? Who pays for it? Who drives the car? It’s a model of nature. Parental role is that you are in charge of. You are responsible for. And so, given that. yes, you are. How much you’re going to have to play that part, depends on the dog. And people are different just as dogs are. Some people are natural leaders and that’s easy.
Julie: Other people maybe aren’t natural leaders or just haven’t practiced. What’s great about our dogs is that they give us an opportunity to practice those skills in a safer context than with people.
Julie: The first thing I would say is that it depends on the dog. Every dog
Part 2: Leadership Pitfalls, Motivation, and FunWelcome back. In the first part of the show, we met Julie Forbes. She talked about the importance of leadership and how each of the dogs in our world are unique. I also challenged all of us to think about how today’s show can hopefully teach us a little bit about ourselves and how to be better leaders.
Now, I want to look at some of the things we should be cautious of, such as using fear as a motivational tool. Have you ever had a boss who was big on results, but had very little in the respect department? I once had a boss who would threaten us with unemployment, if we didn’t work through the night to meet an unexpected and increased quota. At the time, I feared losing that job, and my boss would use that fear to motivate me. Those threats, among other things, did little to instill respect and a healthy organizational culture. Here’s Julie, again, helping me see how dogs can teach us to be better leaders.
Julie: I think a great quality of leadership is to inspire greatness in those who work for you. To nurture those who you’re responsible for to be the best versions of themselves that they can be. Versus keeping others down or beneath you and focusing more on that aspect of it. I don’t think it’s as effective to inspire work or productivity by keeping people down or feeling bad about themselves. Relying on fear to maintain a position a power, I don’t think is good leadership.
Adam: I see that parallel between how I’ve been treated as a worker. Trying to be motivated by fear as a tool. And I see people using fear as a tool to kind of teach or control their dogs. It creeps me out.
Julie: It’s all over the place these days.
Adam: Can you think of a healthy situation where we should use fear as a leadership tool?
Julie: Understanding that there’s a line. I think there’s an appreciation of respect towards a leader. Understanding that this is the person in charge. Understanding that there are expectations and there could be consequences. But, that’s not… You know, when I think of dogs and fear, I think of an emotional response. When you’re in a state of being fearful, it will make you have trouble making mental connections. Your ability to learn is really drastically impacted, if you are in the presence of fear and anxiety.
I recently had a dog training client who said to me, “ah, it’s all about using treats.” I said, “no, it’s all about incentive”. I’ll ask most dogs to ‘sit’, before opening the front door and going for a walk. I typically don’t need food or any other type of reward, in that situation, because the reward of having the door opened and beginning the walk is enough incentive for the dog to comply. Of course, some dogs don’t like going for walks and others need very little, if any, incentive to sit. Here’s Julie talking more about using motivation when providing leadership.
Julie: In the context of business and managing employees. How do you motivate? That’s another doozy. Talking about motivation is something we take for granted. Oh, dogs love to please. My dog loves to please. Mmm. Your dog is interested in themselves and what works for them first, generally. How much your dog enjoys being worked with is genetic. Is it a herding breed or is it a scent hound? Cause I can guarantee you a vast majority of the herding dogs will be excited to just be told what to do. My cattle dog, for example, is like “yes!”. “Levi! do this or do that and “yes”!” you know, psyched. He’ll just put his ears back and do it, because he’s super excited. My dachshund, scent hound, her job description is to track scent. Your job is to keep up. A terrier, for example, will go into the hole and kill the animal in the hole, versus a herding breed where the job description is “go right, go left”. You’re not telling a terrier “do this, do that”, while they’re killing a rat, for example.
Adam: Interesting.
Julie: That part is over-applied that “dogs love to please”. Hmm. Dogs are paying attention to the feedback they’re getting in their environment and what works for them.
Adam: And different people are motivated by different things. People have different skills and abilities that need to be harnessed by good leadership or with good leadership.
Julie: Exactly. Recognizing what is your skill set as an individual and therefore what job am I going to expect you to do.
Adam: I view myself as an impatient person. It can sometimes be one of my downfalls, but other times it contributes to my personal drive. It definitely is a down fall for me when my impatience with people causes me to become reactive or short tempered. I have spent a lot of time around a wide variety of dogs and I can say that they have taught me a lot about patience. And, as Julie is about to tell us, the importance of setting the emotional tone.
Julie: Commonly when people don’t get what they ask for they start to panic a little bit. Go over to the dog and try to catch the dog. And, your dog is basically controlling you. You’re freaking out.
Adam: And maybe, they’re getting a “razz” out of you too.
Julie: I’ve thrown you off, without even doing anything. That’s not a strong presence. How easily someone is gotten to react is not a sign of someone I would want in charge of me.
Adam: yeah, the reactive boss, or the micromanaging boss.
Julie: “ahh!” What’s going on? I want calm and thoughtful. I feel confident in my ability to ultimately get what I ask for. You’re asking another individual to make a choice. That’s something you don’t get enough of in training. We talked about motivation. What motivates one individual over another is a really important thing to understand about your dog as individual. Why should your dog want to work for you? Because dogs love to please? No. Why? What is the nature of your relationship together? Do you have fun together? Does your dog feel good when he or she does something for you? Do you let them know or do you take it for granted? Then, really focus on when they misbehave and that’s where they kind of get more attention. So, there’s a lot there. But, the emotional tone is…I really love getting to coach people through that and watch people practice it. One of the ways to really express power is to set the emotional tone. This is how this is going to go. If you don’t do what I ask, am I going to change my emotional tone? Or, am I going to just stay on it and get it. Work through it and ultimately follow through without changing how I’m being really drastically. Because, that would be the dog really throwing you off. Are you just chasing the dog around the room? Then, the dog starts to have the most fun.
Another controversial subject that I find nearly unavoidable as a dog trainer and dog welfare professional is the debate over the use of corrections. Corrections can range from using physical force, a shock collar, simply saying eh-eh when a dog presents an undesirable behavior. I’m weary of anyone who advocates using physical force, or what I dramatically refer to as “electro-shock therapy” to train a dog. But, it’s also my opinion that modern American dog training has also overreacted a bit in an attempt to distance itself from the old-school alpha dominance style of the past. Not that the Alpha, or dominance, approach isn’t still very much alive. Yes, we should teach dogs desirable behaviors, so we can set them up for success. But, is it wrong to communicate to a dog, or person, when they’re about to do something potentially undesirable?
Julie: The most important way that dogs are understood as an individual in this context is around the use of corrections. Which is the biggest way that the industry is in conflict is around corrections and consequences. There are sort of two ends of the spectrum. We’re not acknowledging wrong choices…
Adam: Which I think relates very heavily to leadership.
Julie: Sure. In parenting styles, too. “don’t ever tell your dog “no”. Well, dogs correct each other. It’s ok. It’s just that…
Adam: You can pick whatever word or sound you want, too. That’s the beauty of it.
Julie: It doesn’t matter. How are you going to set boundaries? How does a dog communicate to another dog not take their bone? They growl and snap. “Oh no. my dog is being aggressive.” It’s just the dog is communicating in a way that’s natural to the dog. Or, it’s communicating to the other dog to stop humping them. They turn and swing their bodies. It’s not all positive. The world isn’t all positive. Dogs aren’t all positive. And, it’s ok. We can set boundaries in a way that isn’t abusive and that is sensitive to the dog. Cause if you over correct, then you freak them out and you don’t have their brain, so you can’t teach them anything, because now they’re nervous. So, you have to know who you’re working with. Some dogs are very sensitive to body language and corrections. Others, not so much. They’re like “out of my way!” and trying to blow past you.
Adam: Big goofs.
Julie: Yeah, that’s why we normally come in with a low level of intensity with the dial turned down and then get to know the individual that we’re working with.
As we talk about being leaders and avoiding the pitfalls of unhealthy leadership approaches, I often tell clients to think about their favorite teachers in school. Usually, those teachers provided a place where we could both express ourselves and have fun while learning. Like everyone, I have bad days and sometimes allow my impatience to get the best of me, but one of the main reasons I enjoy working with dogs, is because it’s fun. Dog training should be fun. In fact, as a personal piece of advice from myself to all you dog owners out there, if you’re ever working with a dog trainer or similar professional and they aren’t instilling a sense of fun in you and the dog, then I recommend finding someone who does.
Julie: I am at my most brilliant when I’m having fun. So, I want dog training…. All I want to do is have fun…ever. For me that’s what it’s all about.
Adam: My worst dog training days are when I realize that I lost sight of that.
Julie: Chaser the border collie who was taught over 1,000 words. She was also taught common nouns, so she could name things. She was also taught verbs and adjectives. How this dog was taught language is something that hasn’t been accomplished prior to this. John Pilley, the retired psychology professor who taught his dog “Chaser” all of these words entirely through playing. If we talk about motivation for work, which is inspiring work as leadership. Often times in leadership you’re trying to motivate people to do things for you or be this or that for you. Fun and play is lot of it.
Adam: That’s why you see a lot of this stuff now days with the google campuses.
Julie: Game rooms.
Adam: Game rooms and free snacks.
Julie: Exactly.
Coming up in the final part of the show, Julie Forbes will share with us the importance of being present and self-aware. And, how these mindful states can help us be better leaders. Back after this.
Part 3: Presence, Self-Awareness, and Authentic LeadershipWelcome back to the final part of this episode. One of the biggest takeaways from my conversation with Julie Forbes is the importance of being present. I think her advice could also help me as I work to harness my impatience.
Julie: You know being present is powerful.
Adam: What do you mean by that?
Julie: Being present. Well, we could probably do a show just on that…
Adam: Ok. Let’s do that.
Julie: That’s something that dogs really provide us an opportunity to be present in a world that moves so fast. And one of the pieces of coaching that I will give to people when I’m in the presence of them and their dog and coaching them to educate their dog. And this could be in the context of basic obedience training, which is different than behavior work. Obedience training is kind of like school, like education. People talk and move so fast Sit! Sit! Sit! Sit! Sit! It’s like, oh my gosh. If someone was talking to me like that, I would be inclined to listen for very long.
Adam: That’s the first thing I do in my classes. We play a little game, you know, “the name game”. They can only say the name of their dog once, but they have to come up with some sort of sound or way to get the dog’s attention. But if you repeat yourself, then you lose your round.
Julie: I think there’s also an attachment to the outcome. It’s not the destination, it’s the journey. When a dog is new to the training process, especially, being really present to the dog’s learning and thought process is one of the best ways to get to know your dog. Especially that the nature of our relationship has been working together for tens of thousands of years until very recently. I call it the unemployment epidemic in our society and a lot of them are really bored. It’s the down! down! down! mentality. I call it the “doing versus being”.
I later asked Julie to expand on what she meant by “doing versus being”.
Julie: Meditation, for example, would be a great practice in being. Asking your dog to do something that he or she knows how to do and just giving it a few seconds, before saying something, or doing something, to get your dog to do it. Actually, what’s more powerful is to just be, with your dog, and listen to the non-verbal communication. Because, they’re not going to verbally process. “Oh yeah, you said that to me before, but not with a big hand signal this time and I’m used to that.” Ok. But, then they do it. So, they’re not going to verbally process, because they’re dogs. But, they have a thought process. So, being with that process and letting the dog actually connect the dots, actually strengthens their ability to have a thought process. Which is important when you start working them around distractions. Talking about leadership. It’s not what you say, it’s your actions and also how you are. Leaders set the emotional tone. So, if I’m like “sit, sit, sit, sit”. It’s like oh my god, why are you so amped up and panicked. What is happening right now? What is different. Versus, “hey, sit”. And it just feels different. It creates the emotional charge of the environment. I mean that’s just not leadership. That’s power.
One of the things I’m always quick to teach my clients is that dogs have different temperaments. Some dogs are timid and shy and take a little longer to warm up to new people. Other dogs are very bold and have zero stranger danger. Sometimes I see people jump to conclusions and make broad assumptions about a dog that are completely off base.
For example, just because a rescue dog is fearful or timid around new people, doesn’t mean that it was abused by a previous owner. Also, if I had a dollar for every time someone tells me that a dog doesn’t like me, because I’m a man, I’d be rich. Alright, I wouldn’t be rich, but I hear it all the time. I’m not saying that there aren’t any dogs in our world who don’t like men. I’m just saying that I think sometimes we project and give dogs labels and histories that aren’t helpful or applicable to the animal.
Julie: In communication with dogs, the more self-awareness you are and the more conscious you are of yourself, especially your emotions, the better you will be at communicating with dogs, because the clearer we are. For example, projection. Being aware of…
Adam: What do you mean by projection?
Julie: Projecting your own feelings on to another. So, it’s uh, we do it all the time and it’s kind of a bummer. Well, ok. Fear of the dog not liking you, if you set a boundary. It doesn’t have to do with the dog, I guarantee you that. Dogs actually really like it, when there are clear boundaries and communication.
Adam: They like structure.
Julie: Yeah. With respect, of course, and love and fun and all that good stuff. Just as kids like to think, generally, that there is a larger presence than them? It helps them to relax. So, the more self-awareness we have, the better people we are. And we’re not run by our unconscious agendas. And run by our insecurities.
It’s a real honor and pleasure to learn from someone like Julie Forbes. I think she and I both share an interest in learning about ourselves, other people, and how the dogs in our world help facilitate it all. I think learning about ourselves and dogs is empowering and as I’ve told you before, it leads me to new areas of interest and understanding. It also helps me better understand Julie when she talks about…
Julie: Personal power, regardless of whether you’re in a leadership position at work or in life or wherever. If you have a dog, you are to a degree depending on your dog. This sense of personal power and authenticity. Being authentically connected and being authentically who you are and brining that authentic self to your relationship, or whatever it is, I think is a huge piece of being powerful, because you are you. You’re fully you. You’re not trying to be somebody else. You’re not holding yourself back, because you’re afraid of what this person is going to think. Or afraid of being different. That’s something that I can certainly relate to, personally. And, gratefully so as I approach my 40th birthday, this year, I don’t fear that nearly as much as I did, when I was a 20 years ago. Who better to be authentically expressed without being judged and that’s part of what makes that relationship so safe. We also, again you know, need to…uh…keep tabs on our ourselves and on our dogs. The clearer we are emotionally. The better we take care of ourselves and stress levels in life. Because, dogs, unfortunately, sort of absorb all of that. The more we help ourselves, the more we help our dogs too.
Adam: The more we help ourselves, the more we help our dogs too.
Julie: mm-hmm.
Adam: I’m going to remember that one.
Julie: For sure.
Adam: That’s a soundbite.
Julie: Yeah.
Adam: When and where can people listen to the dog show?
Julie: Live, Wednesdays at 2PM pacific time on alternative talk am radio 1150. Also, you can listen to the podcast on iTunes and we post our shows on our Facebook page as well. It’s the dog show with Julie Forbes. So, there’s over 400 shows awaiting to be downloaded for free.
Adam: Ok.
Cue Bed Music – Outro
Thanks for listening to my conversation with Julie Forbes about Dogs and Leadership. If you’re a listener who has a dog, think about how you provide them with leadership? Does your dog need a lot of leadership and management? Are you finding healthy ways to motivate and work with your dog? And are you able to create boundaries? How can all of us practice being present and more self-aware? One thing Julie and I talked about, but I’ll have to save for a later date is the importance of body language when communicating with dogs. Sheesh, it’s so hard cramming everything I learn from our guests into just one episode. Thank you, again, to Julie Forbes for sharing with us. I’m sure she’ll let us know when her book is published. If everything goes as planned, I should have a very special guest for our next episode. So, I definitely recommend connecting with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Another way to be the first to know about new episodes and updates is by signing up for our newsletter at dogsinourworld.com. Until then, I’ll talk to you soon.
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