How can a physical journey trigger profound inner change? What draws a non-religious person to undertake a Catholic pilgrimage? What happens when you encounter both the best and worst versions of yourself on the same path? Bradley Chermside, international best-selling author, entertainer, and host of the El Camino de Santiago Podcast shares his transformative journey.

You can also find my memoir, Pilgrimage, and lots of pilgrimage and Camino resources here.

Bradley Chermside is an international bestselling author, copywriter and multi-award winning singer and entertainer. He’s the host of the El Camino de Santiago Podcast, and today we’re talking about his book,The Only Way is West: A Once in a Lifetime , 500 Mile Adventure Walking Spain’s Camino de Santiago.

• Life before the Camino and why walk a pilgrimage if you’re not a Christian
• Spiritual and personal influences
• Highlights of the Camino, and the challenges along the way
• Meeting people, walking together and alone
• Balancing life after Camino — and why Bradley continues to walk the routes
• Recommended books

You can find Brad at BradleyChermside.com and also on the El Camino de Santiago Pilgrims Podcast.

I was also on Bradley’s Camino podcast talking about my own Camino experience here. 

Transcript of the interview

Jo: Hello, travelers. I’m Jo Frances Penn, and today I’m here with Bradley Chermside. Hi, Brad.

Brad: Hello.

Jo: Hello. So just a little introduction. Brad is an international best-selling author, copywriter, and multi-award-winning singer and entertainer. He’s the host of the El Camino de Santiago podcast, and today we’re talking about his book, The Only Way Is West: A Once-in-a-Lifetime 500-Mile Adventure Walking Spain’s Camino de Santiago. And on the video, Brad’s just showing the book there, it is fantastic. So we’re going to jump straight into it. I wanted to pick out this quote from the book.

You talk about, “A meaningless, empty existence, exacerbated by the Monday morning blues.” Why was pilgrimage the answer?

Take us back. What was life going on in your life at that time and why was pilgrimage your answer?

Brad: Well, exactly what you just described there was a meaningless existence. I knew it had a limit on it. I knew it wasn’t a sustainable way of living.

Jo: What was it though? We’re dying to know.

Brad: I don’t really need to go into details! but it was just doing what you do as a youngster. You’re experimenting with different things, and it wasn’t really fulfilling in any way. And the work I was doing at the time wasn’t fulfilling either, even though I was making a good living out of it. And I thought, you know what? There’s got to be a drastic change here, and I’d read two books about the Camino during the time. The Camino by Shirley MacLaine, which is mad.

I was like, “Whoa, I wouldn’t mind some of these crazy things happening.” These really vivid lucid dreams and hallucinations in her dreams and stuff. And also The Pilgrimage by Paulo Coelho, which is one of my favorites.

Jo: And I read that one. That was my one. Very different books.

Brad: Oh yeah, definitely. And again, a bit woo-woo, as they say.

But I’m into woo-woo so it was definitely preaching to the converted. And I thought, you know what? And anyway, I bumped into a friend of mine in London, just by chance, a serendipitous event, and they said to me, “You should… I’ve been trying to get in contact with you. You should walk the Camino.”

And this person was never ever present on social media, literally disappeared off the earth. And I just bumped into them on the wrong train on the London Underground. So I got onto the wrong train on the London Underground and I was like, “This is a sign.”

I decided to go and walk it, and the massive change was exactly what I needed.

It was a chance to look back at the life I was leaving and realize that it was going down a dead end and that changes were needed.

Jo: So what year was this?

Brad: This would have been 2015.

Jo: Oh, okay. So as we speak now, like a decade ago. And so, how old were you approximately at the time?

Brad: 2015, so going back I would’ve been 36.

Jo: That’s really interesting. So I do think that in that mid-30s, I also at that point, I was working as a business consultant, and I was like, “What is the point?” And I wasn’t living quite the high life that it sounds like you were, but it was also a similar, “What am I doing with my life?” I think there’s probably something that starts to hit at mid-30s when that happens.

Brad: Yeah, I think it comes at different points for everybody, doesn’t it? But you just know, like, you’ve got to make a big decision. And it was very, very necessary.

Jo: So you read those two books, but you… as far as I know, you’re not a Christian, right?

Brad: No, no, I’m not, no.

Jo: So how did you go from… I mean, obviously you read those two books, but something was drawing you, and you said you’re a fan of woo-woo.

What in your background prompted you to want to go on what is essentially a Catholic pilgrimage to change your life?

Like, you could’ve gone to India and done meditation or something, but you chose this.

Brad: Yeah, it’s a very good question because I have done stuff like that. I’ve spent time with Hare Krishnas. I’ve chanted with them and stayed in a Buddhist silent retreat, which for me is a really big challenge. The silent retreat was in Hertfordshire in the UK.

And I’ve always been spiritually curious. I’ve also worked in a church, worked for a church. You know, this was part of my journey, like, where is my spiritual destination? Where’s my spiritual home? Still haven’t found it, if I’m being honest. But that is all part of the journey so I’m always open to religion, always open to spirituality. And I just knew that this was a place where it was a kind of a bastion of European spirituality.

And my brother is super spiritual. He’s older than me but he’s super spiritual and he’s been an influence definitely. He’s a Christian, actually.

Jo: Okay, so there was something there.

Brad: Yeah, yeah. And he was shoving Bibles under my nose as a kid, and I’d pick it up. It never really resonated with me personally. But always aware, always open, always, and I knew this was just a place where I’d probably meet like-minded seekers.

Jo: Yeah, and I use that word too, seekers.

Brad: Mm-hmm.

Jo: And I think that’s, I guess, what I’d say to people listening, if you’re not religious, you can still be a seeker, like a spiritual person.

Which Camino route did you walk at that time and what were the most beautiful parts, the highlights?

Brad: The Camino Francés, which is the kind of official starting point, is in France at the foot of the Pyrenees, Saint-Jean Pied de Port. And you cross the Pyrenees, then you walk all the way to Santiago de Compostela across the whole of northern Spain.

I went on to the Atlantic and finished in Finisterra, which is the supposed end of the Earth until the Americas were discovered. So I love that idea. And that’s where the Camino Francés trail, the official trail, goes from. You can jump on and off any point along that trail. There’s not like a gate that opens up and closes until you get to the end. You could just get on there and walk it. And the first day is stunning. It’s a really tough walk. It’s up and over the Pyrenees.

There’s a stop along the way in a place called Orisson. That’s a really good stopping point. I went all the way over and all the way down on the first day, 27 kilometers, but the views are incredible. It’s like you’ve walked through the gates of heaven and you’re up in the clouds and you’re above the clouds and you see the serrated mountainous skyline and the jagged peaks poking through the clouds. It’s unfathomable to the mind. You never think that such natural beauty exists.

And also, another beautiful part would be Santiago to Finisterra. That’s an official start of another Camino, which is the Camino Fisterra. You get another Compostela when you get to Finisterra as well. And me and my wife did that again last year, March 2024. It’s four days walking, three days if you really want to give it some. But wow, I mean, that is something else. Forest all the way, pine forest, walking alongside… I just got goosebumps saying it. And the energy, the energy, oh my Lord —

There’s something in the air there between Santiago and Finisterra that I guess you could call it a higher vibration, a supreme energy, a purer energy —

I don’t know what it is, but you go there and your whole soul just breathes a sigh of relief when it gets there.

Jo: Is it a lot less busy?

Because one of the issues, I guess depending on the time of year, but the main Camino routes and the Francés particularly can be very, very busy, and that last 100 kilometers is particularly busy because that is the one that a lot of people only do the last 100 kilometers. So is that separate one on to Finisterra, is it a lot emptier?

Brad: I guess it depends on what time of the year you do it, but it definitely has less people than the main Camino routes. I don’t know the official statistics. I know the two most common routes are the Camino Portuguese, which would be in second place, and the Camino Francés. So where the Camino Finisterra ranks on that, I don’t know, but there’s definitely less people. It’s a harder walk, so that’s why there’s less people as well. It’s not an easy walk by any stretch of the imagination.

Jo: Is it more mountains again?

Brad: There’s a lot of ups and downs. There’s a Spanish guy I met along the way and he described it as, “Bing bong, bing bong, bing bong.”

But it’s not just the fact that there’s lots of ups and downs, but it’s like you go really vertical up and down. I found myself doing zigzags to get down because it was so steep.

Jo: Okay, because of the knees. That’s the thing, it’s the downwards on the knees, right?

Brad: Yeah, it’s a stretch, but it’s a challenge, but beautiful and just the scent of pine forest everywhere and then you kind of get to the last day and you’re walking alongside the beach and there’s all these lovely places to stop off and eat seafood. And I don’t know what it is about Finisterra but because it’s the supposed end of the world.

Again, I’ve just got goosebumps. My hairs are standing on end here. When you get there, it’s just like, oh my God, it’s quite emotional when you get there. Me and my wife just kind of got there and we were like, “Oh my God, this is just something else.”

Jo: And your wife is Catholic, right?

Brad: She is, yeah. She’s a very, very devout Catholic girl, my wife.

Jo: Yeah. So it’s interesting that you both have a different experience of what is spiritual, but if you both find that place so important, that’s really interesting that you feel that way. But winding it back to your original Camino —

What were the hardest parts of the journey?

—when you didn’t know anything about any of this stuff and presumably hadn’t done a walk that long either because it’s like six weeks, isn’t it?

Brad: Yeah, I mean, I did it in 29 days. I was going great guns. But I’ve got experience like running marathons and triathlons and stuff like that. But I will say even though I’ve done marathons and triathlons, nothing can prepare your body for walking day in, day out those lengths of kilometers. That was definitely the hardest part, adjusting to the physical challenge.

They say that the Camino is kind of split into three different challenges or three different areas of growth, where the first is the physical and then it’s the mental. The middle part of the Camino Francés is quite tough because there’s a stretch of about 200 kilometers or so between the cities of Burgos and León, and it’s called the Meseta which is like the breadbasket of Spain. So it’s very mind-numbing terrain, there’s long stretches where there’s no cafes or bars. It’s just you and your thoughts walking alone with the hot sun beating down on you. Very, very tough mentally. Physically as well, but mentally, I’d say it’s harder.

And then you get to the last part where it’s more the spiritual awakening supposedly. That doesn’t happen for everybody and you shouldn’t ever put pressure on yourself for that to happen, you just get on walking. But there are also the mental challenges, like you alluded to, Jo, is the fanfare around the last 100 kilometers.

I’ve had some kind of hate mail about this from people saying that I wrote in my book that they’re a ‘plastic pilgrim’ because they only walked 100 kilometers. But that isn’t what I wrote. I wrote that you do encounter more plastic pilgrims along the 100 kilometer mark, because it’s where you get all clapping, all dancing, school groups, tours, people with a flag in the air being followed, singing, dancing, people that are up until 1:00 in the morning in the hostels, singing and clapping.

It’s a real challenge because you’ve walked so far, and you’re so tired, and then these people are just, they’re not walking so far, it’s just a party to them. Fair enough, but I kind of defined a plastic pilgrim as someone who didn’t really respect the ethos of the Camino and fellow pilgrims. And they happen to appear around the 100 kilometer mark. So you have to shift your perspective a little bit and not be so judgmental. And I was definitely guilty of that.

Jo: Oh, me too. I was just thinking there, I was judgmental of, at the time, of the people who weren’t carrying their own stuff.

Brad: Me too, I’m ashamed to say. Yeah.

Jo: Yeah. And now, looking back, I’m like —

“Look, there shouldn’t be any shame in however you do the Camino, and it’s your Camino your way.”

But at the time, I remember one particular point, and I was like, these older people who I’d seen at the place we were staying that morning, they’d left – I’d left really early with my pack on, all my stuff, and they just whizzed past me later in the day with just tiny day packs on. They were like, “Oh, hi again.” And by then I was like, [sigh]. And that day, I remember thinking, “Yeah, you don’t carry your own stuff.” This judgmental voice in my head. But like you said, one of the challenges is coming up against your own issues, right?

Brad: Absolutely, yeah. And I think that’s the point where I was definitely guilty of being a pilgrim snob, no doubt about that.

And I look back and I’m a little bit ashamed of myself really. But at the end of the day, everyone’s pilgrimage is different and because you’re doing so much physical exercise, there’s a lot of cortisol coursing through your veins as well. So your stress hormones are at the peak as well. So you have to forgive yourself a little bit for that. Because when you step back you’re like, “Okay, there was no need to think like that.” And you’re only souring your own experience as well, being like that.

Jo: Yeah. Again, all of this, it’s meant to be a challenge and there are different levels of the challenge.

What about some of the more emotional things?

You do at one point talk about crying and you also talked about a rumor of some spiritual ley lines among the Camino paths. So tell us more about that sort of emotional and spiritual side?

Brad: Yeah, it’s hard to define it or explain it, really. Because first of all, alluding to those ley lines, again, a bit woo-woo, but I’m reading from the Britannica website here, these are not my words. I’m not this articulate, okay? So, “Ley lines, invisible lines that, according to new age thinkers, join significant landmarks across the world. They believe them to hold sacred powers.” So, this is the theory behind it.

I can tell you from experience that they say that believers will say that there are ley lines that run across the whole of the Camino Frances, supposedly in the ground, I guess. I don’t know where they are. And they’re also say that the Milky Way runs directly above it as well. So there’s supposedly this explosion of spiritual energy. And I guess lots of people have spiritual energy blocks, and it helps to really open that up. And I guess when that happens, there’s an explosion of emotions as well.

And with lots of things going, there were different challenges mentally, professionally, emotionally in my family at the time that I was going through. So it was like, “Why am I crying?” I don’t know.

You don’t know why you’re crying, you just do. It just happens. And there’s also just the great natural beauty that’s all around you.

You’re walking through vines, like red wine vines, and mountains on the sky. Everything’s just so beautiful.

And you’re meeting people from all over the world, lovely people. And on the pilgrimage, I often think, like, you sometimes encounter the worst version of yourself. You’re also meeting people at their best version of themselves as well, because they’re open, they’re traveling, they’ve released themselves from the shackles of the nine-to-five. And so, just that great mixture, that cocktail of beautiful energy just opens up something, I think. And I guess whether the ley lines are a result of that, or whether they cause that, who knows? Who knows? But I can tell you there’s a special energy on that Camino, and there’s something beautiful going on there. And maybe the ley lines are the culprit.

Jo: Yeah, it’s interesting. I like that you said there, “Whether it’s the cause of it or because of it.” Because I also feel that when people of either faith and belief, when you worship in a particular place, this is true anywhere in the world with any religion, it’s not specifically Christian, there are places where people have worshiped over the years. That might be a pagan place. And there is energy that you can sense there if you are open to it.

And I agree, I think there’s places like that along the Camino. What’s interesting, of course, is the Cathedral of Santiago de Compostela, which is really like, a thousand years old and full of all these relics, and a very holy place for Catholics. I didn’t get that sense in there. I don’t know. What do you think about the difference between the sort of more humble senses, and the really grand places of worship?

Brad: So it’s really interesting you say that, because the word I take from that is energy. And even though I don’t consider myself a Christian, I love to go into churches, because I love the energy in the churches.

Yeah, I love the divine, spiritual, purer energy where people go there and they emit and they transmit beautiful energy. And I think that’s why it’s such a good place. And when you go to a place like the cathedral in Santiago, it’s more of a tourist site these days.

So maybe the energy’s different and people aren’t really in there to worship, are they? They’re there to take pictures.

Jo: I was, to be fair.

Brad: And understandably. It’s a stunning cathedral. There’s no doubt about it.

It’s beautiful inside and out. And that special energy, I have actually felt more in the city of Santiago, in the squares, there’s the place outside, Praza Obradoiro.

That’s my very poor attempt at Gallego there, which is the national language of Galicia, the local dialect. Or, actually it’s a language, to be honest. It’s not a dialect, it’s a language.

And in Praza Obradoiro, I love the energy there, because that’s when you see all the pilgrims turn up and finish, and they’re all so jubilant and celebrating. Again, it just gives me goosebumps, just seeing them come in, throw their backpacks to the floor and celebrate. It’s really nice to watch.

When you’ve finished your pilgrimage, it’s nice to just go and sit there and have a cold beer and just watch everybody do that. It’s really nice.

In your book, I felt that your experience was quite different to mine, because I was solo, and I’m quite a solo person, so I wouldn’t say I hung out with people at all. And I got private accommodation, so I wasn’t in hostels and all that. But your Camino did seem like pretty people-based, pretty chatty, lots of relationships.

How did people shape the route and how can others who might want to walk it meet people but also have time alone?

Brad: A great place to meet people is always the albergues, the hostels. When I’ve gone on my own, I’ve stayed in albergues, specifically because I wanted to meet people, more than anything.

And they are really economical as well.

And just a cheeky little hint, there’s this really special albergue along the way in a little village called Granon. And it’s like a donativo, they call it, so you give a donation based upon what you can afford to pay. And everyone gets together. There’s about 40 pilgrims. They get together. They all make a meal together. Then they go to worship together in the church afterwards. The albergue is an annex to the church.

So a really beautiful experience. I really recommend that as a place to meet people. But albergues are a great place to meet people along the way. Also in the cafes and bars along the way. That’s when you often encounter the quirky locals. The locals are very quirky, very helpful. Even if you don’t speak Spanish, it doesn’t matter, because they talk with their hands. They’ll still talk at you anyway, they won’t care if you talk Spanish or not. And then you’ll meet your fellow pilgrims as well. And that’s when you say, “How far have you walked today? Where are you going to? How are you feeling? You want some cream for your blisters?” All this kind of stuff. Everyone’s very helpful with each other along the way. So that’s a great place to meet people.

And how does people shape my Camino? I guess, again, it falls back to energy, doesn’t it? You meet people that have got this lovely energy and sometimes you’re tired along the way and you might bump into someone and they’ve got a really engaging, uplifting conversation.

And I found that when I got tired, I started talking to people that put an extra 10K in my boots or an extra bounce in my boots.

And I guess you’d call me an extroverted introvert. And I think that probably describes me, because I love to be with people, but then I’ll just crash and burn and I can’t be with anyone for a while. I need to go and just sit in a corner and be quiet with myself. So I think the pilgrimage, the Camino really affords you to do both, to be honest. Because you can just go and tuck yourself away in a little cafe in a plaza when you’re finished walking, and journal. That’s what I did anyway. And from that point of view, it really does have something for everyone. The solo walker, as I think you prefer to do, Jo. But I know you found it hard to find that time alone the way, that time alone.

Jo: Well, sometimes, when it was busy. But I wasn’t chatty, like you are. But you went on your own, you didn’t go with other people?

Brad: Yeah, I went alone, all alone. I went all alone. For anybody, that’s a scary thing to do, because you don’t know where you’re gonna sleep the next night. And I didn’t plan anything. I just wanted it to be… Sometimes I just slept where I felt. I slept in a church tower one night, which was something I wouldn’t repeat, to be honest.

The pigeons were very busy, that’s all I’ll say.

But yeah, there’s definitely something for everybody. And there was one time where I just remember really wanting to walk alone, and there was a French gentleman. This was on my final day, my final walk into Santiago, and I felt really bad because I know he wanted to walk with me. But he didn’t speak English, I didn’t speak French, so it was really difficult and tiring to communicate.

And in the end, I had to kind of get the message across that I wanted to walk alone. I felt really bad, but I wanted that last stretch into Santiago to be alone.

Jo: Although that last stretch also, so certainly the very end bit, is in the city, so it’s quite weird, isn’t it? You’re like… It’s kind of a strange ending, because you were out there and then you’re in this city and there’s everyone going about their normal lives.

Brad: Well, yes, a little bit of an anti-climax.

Now, when you say people shaping your way, I just remember an old fella outside, really old man outside a cafe. The Spanish, they love to smoke, and there’s a guy smoking a cigar, and he just raised his cigar to me as I walked past him, and that really, really gave me a lift. I don’t know why, it really did.

Jo: That’s nice that you remember that. Well then, let’s talk about the ending, because —

You went with a purpose to make, you said, a drastic change, a dramatic change in your life. So what did happen as a result of that first Camino?

Brad: Yeah, it’s more like what didn’t happen. To be honest with you, I changed everything.

I dropped the business I was running. I just closed it. I could’ve sold it, but I was like, “You know what? I don’t care about the money.” I just didn’t want to do it anymore, so I closed that down. Changed jobs and yeah, I decided that I was gonna move to Spain, so I moved to Spain.

My plan was never to write a book. I didn’t know I was a writer at the time. I’ve always written. I’ve always enjoyed writing, but I kept a journal and I was sending emails, because I was like, “I’m gonna get off social media.” I’ve found that social media drains my mental battery, and staying off it charges it. So, sadly as part of what we do, social media’s an integral part, and sometimes it uses you rather than you use it.

But massive changes and I ended up writing a book. After I got back, I’d just kind of put together all of my journals and my Dictaphone commentaries and I sent it to friends and family at Christmas, just as a “Yeah, this is just a…” And so many of them got back to me and said, “This is so good. You should do something with this.” And I was like, “Eh, not sure.”

But in the end I decided to do so and this little baby was born. And an alternate career was also born as well, so I’ve kind of got two careers that actually complement each other now, which is great.

Jo: Which is the writing and your entertainment?

Brad: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I’m one of those cringey entertainers, that’s me.

Jo: I love that though. It’s so interesting, because to me —

The way you talk about the Camino and being a spiritual seeker, and then an idea of you being in some nightclub doing entertainment, how do those two things go together?

Brad: It’s really interesting because I don’t really drink alcohol these days. Because I live in Spain now, the odd beer, a cold beer in a lovely cafe, that’s nice. That’s about as much as I’ll drink. And in my industry, I’m always being like, “Push drinks,” you know?

And I just have to turn them down. There was one time me and my wife did a gig a couple of weeks ago and the barmaid just came and put two shots in front of us and insisted we drink it. I was like, “Oh, do I have to? Oh.” And it just felt like poison.

So it’s strange. They’re very two contrasting lifestyles, but in actual fact, they really complement each other, because I have all day to write and then I go to work in the evening, and it’s great. I’ve found my vocation, which is an alternate vocation, which is writing.

And I love doing the entertaining as well. Really enjoy it. And I really feel like it was something I was born to do, you know? I’ve got this kind of bubbly personality. Some people might call it annoying. I don’t know.

Jo: I think it’s charming that you do both. Do you sometimes, like if you’re in a club or something, do you sometimes see young men who were like you were, and you can’t really say anything because you’re so old and mature now?

Brad: Oh, of course, yeah, of course. I look at them, I’m like, “Yeah, that’s me. That’s the annoying version of myself.” And in some ways it helps me to do the job, because I’m able to permit them, tolerate them in a way as if I was thinking, “Oh, I’m something special. I’m better than that.” At the end of the day, I’m just a PE teacher that ended up being a singer, an entertainer and a writer. And thankfully I make a living out of it, and I’m really grateful for that.

I’ve just always been the cheeky chappy, the happy-go-lucky character, and like I say, some people might find that annoying, but that’s me.

Jo: It’s also really important, because I know I’m quite a serious person. The point is —

You can enjoy doing the Camino. You can be a happy, laughing pilgrim. You don’t have to be like a serious, super spiritual, “Oh, my life is so awful,” kind of… You know, sometimes it all gets a bit too serious.

Brad: I think the Camino definitely has that element to it, and pilgrims, obviously they’re there to search, they’re there to seek, they’re there to find answers.

So when they meet a character, some of them might meet a character like me and think, “Who is this idiot?” You know, like, “Just leave me alone.” And I don’t blame them for that. I might probably think the same, to be honest. But there should be a bit more of a fun element.

Like for example, I’ve been on certain Camino forums and gone on there with the way I am, a bit jokey, and I’ve just been trolled by people. So I’m like, “I’m not going back on here.” And I haven’t since, to be honest with you. I think because I’d said about showering with your clothes. I said it’s a good way to clean your clothes. And then the people are on there saying, “You shouldn’t shower your clothes. You’re wasting water.” And I was like, “Oh, okay. I didn’t know that.”

Jo: I would agree that showering with your clothes is the best way. I mean, that’s what you do. You put them under your feet and you wash yourself and then you stamp on them because the soap of the shampoo… I mean, that seems not like wasting water to me.

Brad: Yeah, exactly. Well, maybe it uses less… You’d use the same amount of water doing it in a sink, wouldn’t you? So, I don’t know. To me, I’m killing two birds with one stone, you know?

I got trolled for that. I got trolled by someone because they said I was putting stickers all along the Camino Portuguese. As if I would… Why would I do that?

Jo: Maybe someone else did it on your behalf for your book or something.

But you’ve done more Caminos since then?

Tell us why, and also why the podcast? Like, you haven’t just let it go and moved on?

Brad: Well, I think the podcast just came… The idea came to me when I was walking the Camino Portuguese a few years later. My wife is obsessed with the Camino more than I am. She absolutely loves it. You look around our house, there’s Camino memorabilia everywhere. We’ve got shelves, we’ve got fridge magnets, we’ve got paintings. You name it, they are everywhere.

And so why I did just… I love the Camino, I love nature, I love exercise, I love physical challenge, so there’s that element to it. My wife loves it, so I’ve since walked the Camino Portuguese, the Camino Ingles, the Camino Finisterra again. So we’ve been back to the Camino a good few times since.

I think there might be another one. Can’t remember off the top of… We were gonna walk the Camino Invierno this year, but in the end, we didn’t do it, but it’s definitely on the list.

Jo: On the list.

Brad: And we’ve also walked a lovely walk in England, which people don’t know about very much, but the Leeds to Liverpool canal walk, oh my Lord, that is amazing. And it’s so easy as well, because it’s flat all along the way. It’s just a canal.

Jo: I love walking. I live near a canal, and it’s really easy because you just keep it on one side of you.

Brad: Yeah, yeah. You never get lost.

You never get lost. You just follow that body of water from Leeds to Liverpool, stunning walk. And so easy, you just literally hop off the canal, stay in some accommodation, hop straight back on it, it’s a really beautiful walk.

And why the podcast? I mean, it just came to me. I was like, okay, one, it would be a good marketing tool for the book, and I just enjoy talking about the Camino and meeting other pilgrims.

And in all honesty, I got to the point a few years ago, it was 2022, but I’m about to resurrect it, and I’d been let down by a few guests who said they were gonna come on and they didn’t. And I was thinking, “Is this a sign that I should stop it? Have I exhausted talking about practical elements of the Camino?” And I felt like I had, so I’m gonna be going on resurrecting it with yourself as one of the first interviews. Which is a real honor, so I’m really grateful for that.

Jo: It was lovely. And it’s a different conversation to this one. Like, you were interviewing me about my pilgrimage, so it was quite different. And people can find that interview over there, hopefully by the time this goes out.

Brad: Yeah, and your book is really interesting as well, because it’s not only a memoir, it’s also kind of like a bit of a self-help guide as well. And there’s also loads of practical tips for planning the Camino and training tips.

Jo: Yeah, our books are really different, don’t you think?

Brad: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Definitely, yeah.

Jo: Your book is full of characters, and that is fantastic. Whereas on mine, because it was solo, I’m the only character pretty much.

Brad: Yeah, well, my writing mentor kind of said to me… He’s always said to me, “Character squeeze, character squeeze, character squeeze, character squeeze.” And it was like, when I was thinking, “Wow, there’s so many people, I don’t even need to.” They’re dripping character. No need to squeeze them, you know? So that’s got to go in there.

And the podcast is something I’m really excited to resurrect, to be honest with you, because it’s continued to grow in its listenership and its following.

Even though I haven’t done anything for three years, I’m still getting messages regularly saying, “Oh, it was so inspirational, your podcast.” I think because for someone who’s never walked the Camino and someone that’s maybe a pilgrim looking to refine their routine, they’ve got a lot from it.

And you’re going on there listening to people who have had such a good time on the Camino, and it gives people that haven’t walked it that motivation and that incentive to do it.

Jo: Have you done a solo episode on there about the Finisterra?

Brad: Mm, I don’t think so.

Jo: Well, I’m gonna ask for one. I love the conversations, but the solo episodes I think sometimes with the host talking about that is really cool. Or maybe you could do it with your wife or something.

Because I literally, and I only said to you a few weeks ago when we recorded my interview on your show, I said, “Oh, I have no interest in walking another Camino.” Like, as far as I was concerned, it’s done. Now you’ve given me the idea to walk that Finisterra, and I’m like, “Oh, okay.” Because I always had in my mind, ’cause Paulo Coelho went there at the end, probably Shirley did as well, it is what some people do for sort of the end of the world type moment, and I didn’t do it. So that, you’ve put that in my head now.

Brad: That’s not a bad idea actually, because I know my wife would be more than happy to talk about it, and she always takes like, a thousand photos.

Jo: Yeah, I would love that. That’s the episode I want to listen to, because now I’m thinking about it. But yes, your podcast is fantastic. This is the Books and Travel Podcast.

We’ve obviously talked about our books, but what are a few more books you recommend about the Camino or pilgrimage in general?

Brad: Well, there’s four Camino books that jump out of my mind. We’ve mentioned two of them already.

And the other two, which would be Spanish Steps by Tim Moore. Very similar to mine, quite irreverent, kind of a humorous angle on it. He walked it with a donkey.

Jo: What, leading the donkey?

Brad: The donkey carried his stuff. He wanted to make it like a medieval or an ancient pilgrimage. And I felt sorry for the donkey, if I’m being honest with you.

But maybe donkeys are just like dogs, they like to do that, you know? Be by a human’s side. So, I did take pity on the donkey a lot. But it is very funny, I have to say. And the writing’s brilliant.

There’s another book called The Journey In-Between by Keith Foskett, that has some really lovely descriptive writing in there.

And talking about walking, Bill Bryson, A Walk in the Woods is very, very funny as well. I don’t know if you’ve heard of that one, but really good book.

I read it and I listened to it because I liked it that much. And my favorite book ever, which is similar to the Camino in a way, it’s called The Brazilian Adventure, and it’s by a guy called Peter Fleming, written in the 1930s. So it’s kind of written in Cholmondeley Warner style English, you know? It’s, “Rio de Janeiro is a lot like Reading, but with less people.” You know?

And you have to permit the guy politically incorrect language, because it’s the 1930s, you know? Like, you have to just put that aside and say, “Okay, probably he wouldn’t write that if he was writing that in this day and age.” There’s a few things that you would read, you go, “Oh, should be writing that.”

But fantastic writing. My God, he’s a vocab gymnast, that guy. Oh my God, the writing is incredible. So The Brazilian Adventure, and he’s trying to find… He’s going to virgin territory into Brazil, to look for a guy that he’s not sure if he exists or not still, in an area if he’s not sure if it exists or not either. So the whole thing is just a calamity the whole time, but the writing is incredible. And the adventure, you know, the beasts, the crocodiles, the snakes. All of this kind of stuff, it’s just amazing.

And through the lens of someone who’s very understated, where these days, we have to overstate everything to get attention. But, “Oh, I saw a snake and it tried to kill me. I shot the bugger.” You know, stuff like this. It’s very funny.

Jo: Oh, excellent. Oh, well, this has been fun.

Where can people find you and everything you do online?

Brad: My books are on Amazon. Just search for The Only Way Is West, and you’ll find it on there. It’s got 4.5 out of 5 stars, 1,500-plus reviews. So it’s reviewed quite well. And I’ve written another book, which is Not from Around Here, Memoirs of a Soft Southerner Up North which is about me being a Southerner living up North during the pandemic. And so just, I write funny memoirs basically. And you’ll find them all on Amazon.

Jo: And the podcast?

Brad: The podcast, you could just go onto wherever you listen to your podcasts and just type in Camino de Santiago pilgrims podcast. Camino de Santiago pilgrims podcast, and you’ll get 87 episodes of lots of Camino tips, tricks, and hacks.

Jo: Brilliant. Thanks so much for your time, Brad. That was great.

Brad: Thanks for having me. It’s been a pleasure.

 

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