Today I chat with Yemisi Ilesanmi about LGBTQ rights in Africa. Ilesanmi is a feminist and an LGBT rights activist, she blogs at Freethought Blogs, and she has written a book called, Freedom to Love for All: Homosexuality is Not Un-African.



*********************************************************************************
Transcript:
Trav:                Welcome to the Bi Any Means podcast, a place where social justice and humanism meet. Hello and welcome to another episode of the Bi Any Means podcast, the podcast companion to BiAnyMeans.com. I’m Trav Mamone and my guest for today is Yemisi Ilesanmi.She is a feminist and LGBT rights activist. She blog at Free Thoughts Blog, and she has written a book called Freedom To Love For ALL: Homosexuality is Not Un-African. Yemisi thank you for joining me today.Yemisi:            Thank you for having me.Trav:                First, I want to ask you about your background, tell us a little bit about your background.Yemisi:            I am a Nigerian woman. I’m a resident in the UK. I identify as feminist, bisexual and atheist. I actually am a barrister, and I hold a master’s degree in gender, sexuality and human rights. I’ve worked as a trade’s unionist for about a decade defending workers’ rights nationally and internationally and I’ve done so as a national woman leader of Nigerian Labour Congress. I’ve been the vice president of the International Trade Union Congress and been a member of some ILO committees on Freedom of Association and Rights.                         Basically, I’ve worked as a trade unionist, and right now, I’m more of an advocate and human rights campaigner. I just wrote a book Freedom To Love For ALL: Homosexuality is Not Un-African and I do a lot of campaigns around LGBT issues and atheism.Trav:                Good, good. You are an atheist now but did you grow up religious?Yemisi:            I was born and raised as a Christian in Nigeria. I was born in a religious country into a religious family. I was deeply religious myself in my early years, actually in my teenage years. I happened to be an ardent reader and always wanted to know everything about whatever I’m involved in. I always wanted to excel in my field, and since I took my Christianity seriously then I had the urge to read everything could about it, and I read my Bible, and as a child I was Bible crazy because I had read every single page of the Bible, and all the available colorful books of Bible stories.                        I enjoyed gathering other children and teaching them about the Bible and the adults just watched sometimes in awe. Really I think I was well into the Christian [inaudible 00:02:59] and my parents were members of White Garment Church, which is not your typical orthodox European Christianity. The Celestial Church of Christ was a bit more along the beliefs in prophecy, Holy Spirits, divination and cursing out demons. I would say at the age of 13, I was already a recognized celestial prophetess.                        Being versitle in Bible knowledge, and a fairly good prophetess, everyone said my calling was to be a great pastor for God. Well, funny how things turned out. I’m already working on my book on that. You just watch out for it, “From Prophetess to Atheist.†                       I think by the time I was 16 I had already read many religious tracts including tracts from Jehovah Witnesses, Eckankar, Grail message, etc. I just read really the [inaudible 00:03:57] then, and the spiritual [inaudible 00:04:01] in Nigeria. I was already questioning my beliefs I think at that time. I think the very first thing I could not get over in the Bible was the story of pharaoh and how God hardened his heart. I read that part over and over again, and all I see was a situation where an all-powerful Being used its position to harden the heart of a powerful but not all-powerful ruler and in the end caused the deaths and suffering of many people to lead to deaths of innocent children.                        I couldn’t identify this God with all the all loving Jehovah I so much loved but no matter how many times I read the Bible the facts stared right back at me. Before I knew it, I started seeing other instances in the Bible that just did not sit well with my conscious. I think at this age I was not concerned about the historical accuracy of the Bible. I was more concerned about the morals and the equity of the actions of God and the Bible portrayal of God made me lose my faith in the … I say the equity of God and much later in the existence of God.                         I become conscious of human rights at an early age, and as a budding human rights activist then, the God in the Bible, and all the religious tracts I was desperately reading just appeared like a great violator of human rights. He took on the face of dictator tyrannical warlord even worse than the ministry dictators I was so much opposed to in my country then.                        By the time, I was 19 I was already calling myself a free thinker. I didn’t come across what atheist until late twenties, and I think when I did come across the word online I knew I had finally found a word that suits me. Yeah, I was born into a religious background but thankfully, I was able to leave that behind. Trav:                Here in America there’s a huge stigma attached to being an atheist. Is there a stigma to in Africa?  Yemisi:            Of course, yes there’s a few stigma and in some parts it’s not just about stigma, it could mean the loss of lives, and being an atheists in Africa could mean a lifetime of discrimination, isolation, ostracism and judgment and not just from society. Unfortunately, from those we care about most, and that is our family and very friends. It’s really not just about the stigma. It’s really about the isolation also, and like I said, it could be loss of lives. We have the blasphemy laws, and there’s a part of Nigeria we have the Sharia law. It’s not good news. Trav:                Right. Now, you are also bisexual, and here in America people, say things like bisexuals are just confused or bisexuality doesn’t exist. Do you get a lot of that to?Yemisi:            Unfortunately, yes I do. I get that a lot, as I am sure many bisexuals do. I’m aware that there is a lot of confusion out there about what bisexuality means. However, contrarily to popular opinion, bisexuals are not confused. We are not confused. The confusion is from the many who simply do not understand what bisexuality means. I can ask, what is bisexuality? Bisexuality is romantic or sexual attraction to both males and females. It also encompasses attractions to all gender identities, all gender identities and biological sexes.Because bisexual does not fall into the normal sexual attraction or the homosexual narrative does not mean that bisexuality is invalid or in any way confusing. Bisexuals are people who are capable of sexual attraction to same, opposite or other gender. It really that simple. It is sad that we understand … if we understand that heterosexuals are people who are sexually, emotionally attracted to people of opposite sexes and that homosexuals are people who are attracted to same sex it shouldn’t be difficult to understand that bisexuals are people who are attracted to same sex and opposite sex or other gender.Also, our sexual attraction is not an indication of whom we want to have sex or the number of partners we have. Where you have … many people ask what is bisexual if we are not just being greedy. What they are really saying is that being capable of sexual and emotional attraction to same sex and opposite is greedy. I think people should equate our sexual orientation with greed or confusion. There is no correlation between sexual orientation and greed. We do not have homosexuals and heterosexuals if they are just being greedy. Why do we continue to pose this question to bisexuals? And I’ll say it does equate confusion. It does not equate wanting it or we are just born with the ability to be attracted to same sex, opposite sex or other gender. We should just do away with the stereotypes, and not proclaiming that we are not real, enough of saying that we are confused. Enough of the ignorance statements that bisexuals cannot stay with just one partner. This is not true.The fact that I can be attracted to more than one gender does not make me greedy. It does not make confused. For example, the fact that I like ice cream and cookies I can always say and that I also like all flavors of ice cream does not mean I greedy. It does mean I will eat it all at the same time. Like different flavors doesn’t make me greedy, it does not mean I cannot control myself if need be and people should just stop saying we are not free. They should stop saying that and stop saying bisexuals are not real. I am real. I am not a fantasy. Those are just examples of bi-phobia when people deny that bisexuals exist. Even within the atheist community, we have things like that. This is not just ignorance. It is an example of bi-phobia, and I wouldn’t expect that I will still have the same this within my own LGBT community but unfortunately, people still expect you to explain what the “B†is within the LGBT community. And I think by now people should understand that bisexuality orientation, and we are here to stay.We are not confused and we do exist.Trav:                Very good. Now, I want to talk about your book. First of all, what inspired you to write the book?Yemisi:            I wrote this book … that’s the book “Freedom To Love For ALL: Homosexuality is Not Un-African.†I wrote it to counter the erroneous impression that homosexuality is un-African because this is a rhetoric that many African politicians keep sprouting in their bid to defend discrimination against gays, lesbians, bisexuals and transsexuals. It was also during the upsurge of anti-gays bills in many parts of Africa.                        I was doing a lot of advocacy work on Facebook, and social media writing about it, and people were contacting me for information on or tagging me wanting me to get involved in some of the trends on Facebook. I just decided that it would be good to actually add a compilation of some of my written works and posts so that people can have easy access to this information. I would say with the upsurge of that, again, [inaudible 00:12:21] like I said, many African countries it became imperative to provide necessary information and create awareness on issues of sexual orientation especially homosexuality and bisexuality. Information is power, and education is key to human development. In this digital age where information is easily, available it is sad to know that many people especially Africans still fall for the homophobic, bi-phobic, and trans-phobic rhetoric that sexual orientation is a matter of choice because it really is not and that’s actually my motivation for writing the book.I wanted to put the information out there to be easily accessible to people.Trav:                Right. One thing you mentioned in the book, like you said earlier, a lot of Africans say that homosexuality is un-African and that’s it’s an import from white people but as you mentioned Christianity was imported into Africa not homosexuality. And also you say that same sex relationships where not only a perm but celebrated in African culture. Tell us a little about that.Yemisi:            Yeah, yeah. In the book “Freedom To Love For ALL: Homosexuality is Not Un-African,†I put together a collection of my messages debunking the myth that homosexuality because it’s just myth. The three chapters that delved into the history of homosexuality, and bisexuality in Africa and noteworthy is the wall paintings in Egypt of two black men kissing. They were named Nyankh-khnum and Khnum-hotep. They were ancient Egyptian servants and they are believed to be the first recorded same sex couple in history.                        It is the only time in the [inaudible 00:14:14] where men are displayed in brazen and holding hands. In addition, their names actually form a linguistic reference to their closeness. Nyankh-khnum means joined to love, joined to life and Khnum-hotep means joined to the blessed state of the dead. Together the names can be translated like joined in life and joined in death. We have this wall painting there, right there in Egypt and also there are other cultural practices in Africa that indicates not just the existence but acceptance of homosexuality, bisexuality and transexuality in Africa.                        For example, in Uganda some members of the Buganda royal family suggest that homosexuality was existent and tolerated before colonial rule. To this day, it is said that many members of the Buganda royal family are gay and that’s actually common knowledge. The Ugandans don’t dispute that, and also before the practice died out I think in the early 20^th Century where the male Azande warriors in the northern part of Congo, that’s northern Congo. They routinely married male youths. The male warriors married male youths who functioned as temporary wives and they are the commented facts. That was in the earlier 20^thCentury it surprises that it’s actually well known in that area, and even in Nigeria where I come from we have the matriarchy, and actually is still very strong in Calabar, Nigeria. In this place, in the absence of a male child, the oldest daughter in the family was culturally allowed to marry another woman. That is the woman who acts as the husband. She’s allowed to choose a man to impregnate a wife. The child of the woman got a family name, and she also gets to keep the child and keep her wife.Technically this is same-sex marriage, and it involves a recognized marriage between two same sex persons that’s between two women. Of course, I wouldn’t know and say for certain what goes on behind closed doors once husband, “husband†and wife retires to their bed or in this case wife and wife. Actually, with this the anti-gay law, the Sodomy Prohibition Act in Nigeria.I wonder what the state of this long known cultural practice is now in Nigeria because it’s a known cultural practice and it still goes on. Does that invalidate that cultural practice? I think that will have to put to test. Also, the northern parts of Nigeria like Kano and Kaduna they are actually homes to many gay and I’ll use the word effeminate men because although a effeminate doesn’t mean gay but in dressing and everything we have. Kano and Kaduna are areas that are actually known to be homes to gays, and unfortunately, that was actually before the Sharia law came with the threats of stoning homosexuals to death because of that many have had to flee for their lives.Some African cultures also view transgender persons as gods. They were revived before important intolerance religious started making ways in Africa. It was actually the advent of colonization and the import of foreign laws that sodomy law was brought homophobia and intolerance into many African societies. For example, Shango the Yoruba god of Tonga was often described as a beautiful woman who dressed like a woman, had his braided and accessorized like a woman. Shango priests they are men still dressed in clothing traditionally associated with women when performing rituals.Homosexuality, bisexuality, transexuality are not concepts that are alien to Africa. Sexual orientation is not just a cultural thing. It is biologic, and if we know that and we have said that we have people originated … we [inaudible 00:18:57] we originate from Africa it’s only logical to have said that from time immemorial homosexuality is a biological thing that must have existed right then from the home town of human beings Africa itself. Really, it’s there, and since Africa is a part of human beings, it would be logical to say that we as a man cut off from that biological trace of sexual orientation.Yeah, we have our cultural practices that have existed right before colonialism came with these concepts of homophobia and all that, legalization homophobia. I’m not saying there wasn’t homophobia in Africa before but colonialism came with sodomy laws, and we see it came legalization of that homophobia.Trav:                Right. Now, what’s the status of anti-gay laws in Africa now? I know that when they were first proposed news came over to the States. There was a big uproar but I haven’t heard much about it since. What’s the status of the anti-gay laws now?Yemisi:            In Nigeria, the law has been passed and signed by the incumbent president. The law actually stipulates 14 years imprisonment for same sex relationships and 10 years jail term for anyone who advocates for LGBT rights or it could be the media through attending or not reporting anyone suspicious of having same sex relationships. In Nigeria, it’s sad news it has been passed.                         In Uganda, the law has been reopened again and we hope that it will also be thrown out. It was thrown out based on it was passed but was thrown out based on technicality ground in the because of law but it has also been reopened. We just hope that it wouldn’t sail through again and unfortunately, some parts of Africa also are trying to have a similar bill to pass it anti-same sex bill in their own country. I hope that sudden upsurge of anti-same sex bills would die down but for Nigeria it has been passed, and signed by the president, passed by the parliamentarians, signed by the president, and our hope is to go to court and challenge it. For those of us in diaspora all we can do is to give support to those at home and challenge this.            Hopefully the LGBT community in Nigeria will get its act together and do the right thing because at this stage they have to just fight it out in the court of law but on own part for those of us that are in the diaspora we keep doing what people back home can’t do due to the law. That is bring attention to it, protest we can and when some of our parliamentarians or president visit this part of our world, this part of the planet we make sure that we make them feel uncomfortable because they send some of us away from our country. We should also make them feel uncomfortable when they visit countries where we have been accepted regardless of our sexual orientation.We make them feel the heat, and bring the discussion back on the table.Trav:                How did you become involved with Freethought Blogs?  Yemisi:            I was basically prone to actually writing for Freethought Blog. I had a blog under the same name Yemmynisting on Blogger. I was active on Facebook where I got to be friends with Ophelia Benson. She’s one of the Freethought Bloggers. She was interested in some of the things I was sharing. I sent her a link to my blog on Blogger, and also a link to my YouTube channel. Suddenly I received an email from Ed Brayton if I would consider writing for Freethought Blogs and of course, I was thrilled and I said yes.                        I’ll say it. It has been an exciting experience because it’s a place of like-minded where I could be myself and also share experiences with others. It’s really been interesting. Trav:                Great, great. You once did a video where you talked about the so-called Atheist Plus movement. A lot of people are saying Atheism Plus is dead. What do you think?Yemisi:            Why would anyone say such a thing? Atheism Plus is not dead. Even many of its detractors, I mean even though many of its detractors have been wishing Atheism Plus dead from the very first day it was birthed, I’m sorry to disappoint them Atheism Plus is still very much alive.As long we have atheists that identify with the label, it is very much alive. I identify with the label as many other artists I know. I am admin of the group African Atheists Plus and that group is still up and running. I am also a member of Atheism Plus online forum as are many others that are under … lots of people are so invested in announcing the death of Atheism Plus beats me. It is well alive and kicking, and I can’t understand . . . I don’t know why they are bothered. Why are people so bothered what labels others wear and how they choose to identify or why they choose to identify. For me it is a big deal for me to use Atheism Plus as a label. It is very important to me to use that label, and the more I meet atheists who are general assholes, or I am glad that label exists for me to use.Actually, my Atheism Plus is an addition. It means in addition to being an atheist, I am also an atheist who speaks out on social justice issues and actively oppose racism, sexism, homophobia, et cetera. Like all [inaudible 00:25:45] aware, I just like putting it out right there. What is wrong with having a once stop shop for everything under one umbrella. For me the umbrella is as the atheist umbrella I am not just a social justice group, secular womanist umbrella but the atheist umbrella. I can wear my atheist [inaudible 00:26:08]. I know what the other person stands for.The point is I want a place to do all of those things with atheists who are interested. It’s not a crime if you are atheist and you are not interested or you don’t care for the tag. It doesn’t not make you a bad person but what makes you a bigot and infantile person is where you throw tantrums, spill hate and invade the spaces of those who choose to identify with the Atheist Plus tag. That’s not good.I believe [inaudible 00:26:39] would hate my own decision on which group to join and network with. It saves me precious time I use online arguing with bigot, racist, homophobic atheists on why they have no rational reason to be racist, homophobic or chauvinist. It will save me and many others the agony of joining atheists’ groups that do not care that some of their members are being subjected to degrading attitudes from other group members.Atheism Plus agrees to me because it promotes … it promises a place to hang out with atheists who just like me believe that bigotry, racism or homophobia is irrational and are willing to critically examine social justice issues alongside our non-belief in the existence of God. We want to network. We want to talk about atheism, social justice issues, or just hang out in an environment free of bigotry.It’s really not that difficult to understand. It’s really not a dead movement because I’m very, very much critical about the type of atheist group I join, and like I said, it saves me the headache of going into an atheist group and coming back so disappointed because I’d end up to face misogyny. I have to explain to people why they shouldn’t call me a nigga, why they shouldn’t use ableist language. It can be so tiring. It can be so tiring.With the Atheism Plus tag, I just know what I have in for. I know I don’t have to go through with the one-on-one tutorials. I don’t have to give anyone lectures on that. We call all exchange and share ideas and it’s also a safe place to be free from the online harassments. It’s not dead. It’s very much … it’s a label that is very much alive, and it’s one that I still identify with and I think I will continue to identify with. Trav:                Good, good. Well, that’s about it for me. Anything you’d like to add like any upcoming projects.Yemisi:            Yeah. I still have a blog. I’m still blogging at Yemmynisting. I’ve been quiet for a while but I’m coming out with my book soon. There is a collection of book … a collection of poems anthology which I’m part of that is coming out soon. It’s on echo-sexuality and that should be out next week. I’m having my own personal collection of poems that will be out very soon too plus I’m also working on some new YouTube channel programs basically on atheism.                        Watch out for that and yeah, I also have my book. My first book on atheism and religion coming out hopefully by the end of this year. I’m working on that too. Keep reading my blog check out my YouTube channel for the new materials and the new videos. It’s going to be titled How Moral is your God? And it’s going to be a series. I’m working on that and keep … be on the lookout for it because it’s going to be interesting.Trav:                Thanks again for joining me today Yemisi.Yemisi:            Thank you for having me.Trav:                Thanks for listening to the Bi Any Means podcast. The theme music is “Endurance†by Dream Youth. You can find more of their music at dreamyouth.bandcamp.com. The Bi Any Means logo was design by Asher Silberman. If you like what you have heard, consider becoming a Patreon on Patreon. Just go to www.patreon.com/tmamone to donate. Also, you can go to www.bianymeans.com for more musings of a queer humanist.

*********************************************************************************


Subscribe via iTunes

Subscribe via Stitcher

Support the Bi Any Means Podcast on Patreon.