This week I’m thrilled to have Dr. Veronica Ruelas and Denise Gaffney as my guests to chat Forgiveness. Veronica and Denise are the co-founders of Forgivity, an app designed to foster a habit of forgiveness.

To be fair, when I first heard about turning forgiveness into a habit, I was a bit hesitant. Forgiveness as a habit was nowhere near anything I would have considered. Throw on top of it a neuroscientific and psychological angle, and all of a sudden I’m becoming a big fan.

I love the concept, especially in the context of the workplace. We touch on it in the podcast, but ultimately it should lead to a broader conversation of those “soft” words and terms (think vulnerability, psychological safety) that are vital to a functioning and more productive workplace culture. Ironically, these words we attribute as “soft” are embraced by the strongest and bravest leaders we know. They work.

Beyond the workplace, there is an accountability aspect to forgiveness that I never gave much thought. It’s a personal power to be able to forgive, and is one more notch on the belt of what we ultimately have control over. In fact, it’s the lack of forgiveness that often prevents us from getting to where we need to go.

Lots more to come on forgiveness – and one topic I encourage you to explore for yourself and your teams. Listen to the interview – they are fantastic – and learn how forgiveness just may be the buzzword that makes a significant difference for you this year.

The Forgivity app is now available for download on iOS. For more information on the app, please visit www.forgivity.com.

For more on Veronica and Denise, please hit up their channels:

https://www.instagram.com/forgivity/

https://www.facebook.com/Forgivity

https://www.tiktok.com/@forgivity

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Click Here for an Unedited Transcript of the Podcast

I’m Jim Frawley and this is bellwether. Welcome to bellwether. Thank you for being here this week. We have guests, multiple guests for the first time we’re doing, you know, we’ve got a trio going here and it’s gonna be very, very good. The topic is forgiveness, and I know it’s, you know, it’s forgiveness. We, we can all talk about forgive for some reason. It’s one of the hottest words in corporate right now. I’ve gotten multiple phone calls about it right now. Everybody wants to know about how do you bring forgiveness into the workplace and what does that actually mean? Uh, which took me a little by surprise and, and very fortunately, almost, you know, as the world and universe can kind of work at the same time, I was introduced to these two wonderful individuals who have a solution for forgiveness in the workplace, and they have the app. Everything is an app, and this is, uh, this is going to be a very, very cool app. So I wanna talk to you about forgiveness. I’m gonna talk about the forgive app and let me introduce our wonderful guest this week. I’m gonna start with, we have Denise and Vero Vero. Please introduce yourself.Hi, I’m I’m Dr. Veronica OS and I’m the co-founder and co CEO of forg.And I’m Denise Kaney, I’m the other co-founder and co CEO of forg. Um, I have 20 years on wall street. I’m a certified, uh, energy leadership coach, and now I’m an entrepreneur,Which is a wonderful journey to be on. And when I think about wall street, I don’t typically think of forgiveness unless you think about it in, you know, kind of government handouts, but we’ll, we’ll talk about, um, at, in a difficult corporate environment. Talk to me, we’ll get it right out of the way. Yeah. Talk to me about the forgiving app, what it does and why you created it.So, um, it’s, it’s an, we use, uh, clinical neuroscience methods to, um, make forgiveness a more intuitive behavior because it’s, it’s not something we’re, we’re all taught that forgiveness is important and it’s universal, but, uh, the, how is really missing from the equation. And so, um, yeah, so we, we infuse, uh, humor. It’s a multisensory program. There’s audio learning, there’s engaging digestible, uh, nuggets throughout and, and, uh, yeah, and it’s a, it’s a beautiful, uh, fresh clean platform.Yeah. And you got a lot of us on there. We, uh, Vero mentioned the audio. We had a great time bringing a different type of learning to the app. So you’ll hear our voices. We, we recorded these little snippets called pod drops, and we’ll introduce each of the steps of the program with, uh, a little warm invite from the two of us. And then you’ll hear us throughout the program, uh, either with a bit of information or a quote or, um, some personal experience because like, who wouldn’t wanna hear us, Jim? Right.Everybody wants to hear you cause why you’re here. It’s why I have everyone on the, the show. My goodness,Hear this. They’re gonna be like, let me at the app.<laugh> and you’ve, you’ll be in that too. You’re everywhere. Um, so forgiveness and science would never have paired the two together. Mm-hmm <affirmative> um, you hear that you’re supposed to forgive people. It’s very much, um, you know, when we teach people how to forgive, uh, how does that even work? Right. When I think of forgiveness, I think of it externally, right? You had some wrong come to you and how do you let them, that person know that it’s okay. And, and talking to you, it’s not necessarily letting them know that what they did was okay. It’s about letting them know that you won’t let it bother you. Is that how do you define forgiveness and, and how do we really start that?So we, uh, um, we were a lot, all of us were taught the importance of forgiveness and, um, and it was either through culture, through our family, through our religious practice that we were born into. And so, uh, we are actually empowering the user to have forgiveness come from within them. Um, people can still use the ways that they learned, uh, how to forgive, but we F that a lot of, a lot of times we say we forgive, and then yet a little time further down the road, we think of the person that has quote, wronged us. Um, and we still have a physical reaction to it. So when you say the science, there’s, there’s a deep biological, chemical reaction that is happening when we live in this kind of quote unforgiveness. And so, uh, our heart rate can increase. We, um, uh, lose sleep. Uh, there’s a lot of different ways that it is affecting us. And so when we teach forgiveness, it’s really about how do we get to that fully, that full process of letting go and releasing it and knowing that it is that have the power within us to do that.So it’s, it’s not just, when you think about forgiveness, it’s not just a mental health thing, there’s physical attributes to it as well. And, and we talk about how the physical and the mental always, they go hand in hand, right? You know, what you eat can affect the way you think in all of those types of things, forgiveness is actually has a, a physical response. Is that what you’re saying?A hundred percent? What if, what if we broke it down to, um, what if we took the word forgiveness out and spoke about stress, everybody’s familiar with the effects that stress has on the body? Right. Well, the link between forgiveness and stress is unforgiveness and resentment and anger and irritation and grudge holding. So all of those things, right, that all of us do, um, contribute to the increased stress in our bodies. So does that feel like more of a linear type of, of thing to understand? Sure.And, and the resentment of, as we sit there, you know, we, when you think about coaching and what, and what everybody teaches people to do is focus on what you can’t control, right? You can’t control when somebody treats you like garbage, you can’t control when something wrong happens to you, you can’t, but you can’t control how you react much easier said than done. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. So when we think about, it’s almost meditative, the way you’re doing it, it’s, it’s a stress relief of, you know, parasympathetic, nervous system, all of those types of things. And how do you turn off? But this is something that’s got to become habitual, I would imagine, right? Because this will constantly come back. Resentment will constantly come back. When other stressors come in, you can always fall back on the resentment that you had and, and you’re ultimately blaming other people. How does, you know, how do habits cut into this? How does accountability, uh, set into this? Because ultimately this is your responsibility for forgiveness, not necessarily, regardless of what somebody else does to you. Talk to me a little bit about that,Jim. I mean, um, you’re hired, do you want a board position? I mean, you nailed<laugh>, let’s do it. Yes. Seriously.You, I mean, you’re good. It’s Jim’s sandwich.It’s it’s <laugh> um, that’s exactly right. When we see it’s a neuroscience program, we’re talking about, uh, the neuroplasticity, uh, we re we talk about retraining brain. So that’s how we start to create habitual, uh, patterns. So that behaviors start to, um, uh, express themselves in sustainable ways. Right. So, um, we’ve used the analogy, right? It can’t like, uh, wake up one day and just run the marathon. Right? So we, it takes, it takes practice. It takes muscle memory. And so as we start to educate ourselves, I mean, these are things that we also needed to learn too. We’ve gone through 50 years of research. I mean, there has been so much in terms of cultural, culturally, how we forgive changes, um, our religious organizations. Uh, so it’s all there, but it’s so interesting. There’s all these little or caveats that like, you can forgive if it’s this, or you forgive on this day, or you forgive if you go to this person.And so, um, we respect and honor all of that. Uh, but there, but there’s still that kind of like, like you said, every day we can wake up and there’s new resentments. If any of us are in, um, partnership, we know that mm-hmm <affirmative>. And so every day a were given ample opportunity to be able to use this. And so we really believe that it’s just, as we just don’t know, we don’t know how damaging living in unforgiveness is. We don’t know the magic and miracles of forgiveness can bring in our lives. Once we excavate, uh, that resentment from us and, uh, start to really cut those chains that bind us what the possibilities are. And once we start to learn that through the program, because it is gently and lovingly reminding throughout, um, we start to lay down those new neural tracks so that when something happens, instead of safety of resentment, we have the confidence and the faith to now turn and go into a different direction of forgiveness.And if, if I could, um, piggyback on that, Jim, you mentioned coaching and, um, we can’t control the outside forces. We can only control how we react, right. Um, it’s the other person. We, if this, we teach forgiveness is innate. It’s the power we have within ourselves. The minute we start putting condition on what forgiveness looks like, we give the power away. We wanna keep that here. So no matter what happens from the smallest transgression to something horribly traumatic, that we know that, that we have a choice and it’s only about us. Otherwise we keep ourselves tied energetically to the very thing that’s causing the resentment, the pain, the trauma, who would wanna do that. If you, if you break it down into a real simplistic terms, it’s like, do you choose to be hurt? Or do you choose to be empoweredNow? Well, so some people are gluts for punishment.Yep.So let’s talk about those people who are looking to be wrong, right. Who are looking for those types of things who are looking for, you know, uh, is that just some kind of mental health issue? Is that something where, you know, they have to, when we think about forgiveness, how does it, because I’m, I’m eventually gonna tie this back to corporate, right. And that’s where I really wanna go with this because yes. You’ve said three things between the two of you. One is it’s never about the other person. So it’s individual accountability. What’s personal capability in bringing that in mm-hmm <affirmative>. And where does that tie into things? Like you said, Vero, you said the word safety, so psychological safety and the lack of forgiveness. I think a lot of what you’re talking about is not just forgiveness, but it’s more important is the lack of forgiveness that exists in the workplace. How do you, how do you measure other people on that? How do you teach that in a corporate environment? Talk to me a little bit about, you know, individual personal capability, teaching that within the context of psychological safety and, and the corporate environment.So, um, so in terms of, in terms of the individual, um, I’m, I’m sorry, I’m just trying, I’m trying, cuz I’m I’m on the, it wasA loaded question with like 17 built into it.IOgrapher can I, can you read that back to me please? CanWe get a read back? <laugh> yeah, let me break, let me ask it this way. Cuz I, I did ask seven questions in one we’ll start with psychological safety.Okay. Yeah. So psychological,How do you create an environment where forgiveness is accepted or that, that doesn’t reward? Lack of forgiveness.Okay. There was a, there was something about victim that was coming up when you were speaking in the, in the first time. Um, so how do we create a safe environment? And um, but I, I also want to, uh, validate and affirm that, uh, there’s some really heavy things that need to be forgiven. And uh, and so when we’re talking about forgiveness, it’s not like we’re putting ourselves up on a hierarchy. Oh, I have the power to forgive I’m bestowing forgiveness onto this. It’s not about that. Um, and we want to, and along the way, we really, when we wrote the program, kept in mind the people that, uh, really have some big trauma that need to be forgiven. So, um, holding onto a resentment feels like a boundary, a safe boundary that I’m, I’m keeping up between me and my transgressor and that, um, that feels very real.Um, and so what we’re, what we’re saying is by forgiving them, we’re not, um, putting our selves in harm’s way. We’re not putting ourselves in, in an, in an unsafe environment. It’s just that we’re releasing these binds that they have to us. Right. So we can forgive and never be in relationship with the other person. Again, we can forgive and never have to, um, let them into our lives. And so that’s a really important distinction to make because we, a lot of us have been taught, forgive and forget. Yeah. Or, um, forgiveness doesn’t mean that I condone what you did to me or that, um, you and I are ever gonna be friends again. Right. So that’s really important in terms of safety. Um, so I wanted to just, uh, put that in there. And then in terms of, uh, co company and culture, we Denise and I talk a lot about this because we offer forg, um, to, uh, businesses now for bulk subscription because, uh, there is, um, widespread, toxic company culture going on.And so how can we start to again, create that, um, retraining the brain to under standing that like one, something people are gonna fail us every single day that is we’re human, right. So, I mean, it’s just gonna happen. Um, I’m gonna fail my husband. He’s gonna fail me. Even those that we love our children, our children are gonna fail us. So in inside the, um, work environment, um, when that happens already having those tools and be being able to look at the person who has done something as an entire human being, right. Humanizing that person so that we’re not just, um, hyper focusing on what they did. Um, but we’re able to see, yes, they did that. And there are all these other things, right. They’re a good parent, they’re they have goodness in them. So it’s, it’s allowing, it’s allowing ourselves to, um, have the capacity to be able to, uh, not be, um, not see, uh, not see someone as their act alone. So that already starts to invite in, um, a more way of how we, uh, are in our, in our careers.Um, Denise,Do you wanna add to that?I, I would love to. Yeah. Um, we are working with a lot of corporations at the moment. And so this pitch is right on the tip of our tongues and I want to, um, bring it back to the safety of the corporate environment. Boundaries are hugely important. We teach, um, having good boundaries in the app because otherwise you leave the door open for, uh, transgressions to just keep coming in. Right. Um, and when we forgiveness fluency and we, and we get that muscle, that forgiveness muscle tight leadership is more effect teams work more coherently employees have better time management skills because they’re not sitting at their desk ruminating about the guy that stole their idea or, you know, screwed them out of a deal or whatever. Um, attendance is better. Productivity is better all because of forgiveness, because if I am a able to be, um, an empowered person with great boundaries and the ability to not let resentment live inside of me, I have all of this bandwidth for so many other things, creativity, um, you know, productivity, uh, just the things that a leader or a corporation will on an employee. They don’t,It’s amazing how much resentment just takes away from productivity and how much timeEvery, I mean, well, it starts with, you’re laying in bed at night. And you’re thinking about Joe Schmo, who, who got, who got your deal, who got your client or who, whatever who’s, you know, and then, so it starts with lack of sleep, everybody, what lack of sleep does right then it’s inflammation then it’s you, can’t, you’re tired. So you can’t concentrate. So now your time management’s screwed up and your resiliency layer is thin. So you’re irritable, you’re nasty. You’re not a good team player. You suck as a leader. If we could just draw the lines from, from all those things, it seems very like simple right now.And that be,Go ahead, Viro.I was gonna say, and that behavior’s contagious, right? Yes. So then all of a sudden now, um, now my, uh, colleague and my team members are gonna pick up on this anger bug that I have. And then now it’s just like, you know, and then that’s starts to have that you, um, effect. And so now if we came in to work in from the forgiving lens, from the compassionate lens, um, from having a tremendous amount of self-awareness and presence, let’s let that be the contagion contagious effect. Right?So in terms of that, and I, I have to ask this question because when I talk about psychological safety and I pitch it to clients, mm-hmm <affirmative>, they roll their eyes. Cause they don’t know what it is. And they think it sounds like a very weak word mm-hmm <affirmative>. And when I think back to becoming a coach and leaving corporate, also wall street words, like love never came out, right. It just don’t do it. Psychological safety sounds like something, you know, soft for millennials, forgiveness, compassion. This is a place of work. We don’t all need to be friends depending on which generation you’re from and everything else. We know that the science is there, that there’s validity to it. And once I explain to people what psychological safety is, they say, oh yeah, of course. It’s just, you know, that’s just a weak title. Um, of course we want that. We want everybody to talk and, and feel comfortable and everything. That’s what we want. How do we get people past the fact that it’s a weak word? When in actuality, we know that the bravest leaders are the ones who are able to do it. And, and it’s a very strong word. How do we convince people to sign on at the beginning to at least first filter is there’s validity to this and it’s not just kind of weakness. How would you answer that?Um, well I would say just asking the people, do you wanna live be life or do you wanna be angry all the time? Do you wanna feel sick and have lack of connection and control or do you want to have power and freedom? Um, because forgiveness may sound like a weak word, but it’s actually the bravest step we can take in our own freedom, our own power, um, independence. Right. Um, I hear what you’re saying, but 10 years ago people thought meditation was weak.Exactly. Right, right. And now you’ve got like whim off the Iceman breathing for, you know, whatever. Yeah. So,You know what you wanna be brave. You wanna be cutting edge, jump on the forgiveness wagon because that’s the brave way to go. Not sitting in the old story, in the feeling of, of unhealth and unforgiveness. That’s actually not brave. That’s the weak. That is the weaker choice.And I’m sure we could tie it down like psychological, safety’s tied to bottom line revenue forgiveness. I imagine very similarly. How much of this going back to what you said before, not leaving the door open for other additional transgressions. Right. And I think to Adam grants, uh, hello, kittycat Adam grants give her taker, um, you know, there are givers at work and there are takers at work and you’ll burn out. Yeah. How can you head it off at the pass? Can you stop transgressions before they come? And how much of forgiveness is done in advance where you’re communicating expectations of what’s acceptable and not?Um, I don’t know if, I don’t know if you can, you can stop transgressions at the door cause people are gonna be people, right. It’s almost like saying like I wanna lift li life without being triggered. Triggers are gonna happen. Right. Um, these, these, um, so I see a transgression, almost like a trigger. It’s an, it’s almost an opportunity for us to kind of, um, to go ahead and, uh, transcend what’s happening. And so, um, but, uh, when we have really clean and clear boundaries, that definitely makes it more difficult for other, other people. Like we’re already setting a precedence, this is my space. This is how I communicate. Um, and, uh, I’m loving with boundaries. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And so, uh, boundaries don’t mean that I, I have to be a jerk to anybody. Um, but it just means that I’m clean and clear. And so, uh, that start, that sends, definitely sends out a clear signal. And if we look at, from a place of energetics, um, you know, there’s that saying, like, if you choose the right environment, it’ll do the rest of the work for you. And so, um, so it’s really, really important. Um, the energy that, that we have within us, that we’re exuding out. That doesn’t mean that bad things aren’t still gonna happen. You know, mean bad things happen to good people all the time.And, and I think it goes back to building the muscle too. Like, um, the, if, if we are in a practice of something, it becomes intuitive. Um, and so with the, with forg, that’s actually what we’re teaching people. We’re, we’re reinforcing the practice. We’re retraining rain, we’re creating new neuro pathways. It then becomes an intuitive reflex so that the transgresion as zero said is always going to happen. But our response and our response time will change with time as that muscle gets really strong.Now, one of the words that keeps popping into my head is we talk is cons sequence, right? I know people who are not getting crossed at the workplace because people fear consequence. Right. I would never cross this individual because you know, it’s gonna burn me in the end. And there are other people where you feel like fine. You can forgive me all you want, I’m still gonna, you know, do that transgression and you have that power and whatever. Where does concert sequence fit in or is that too externally focused? You know, what, where does consequence fall into boundaries and, and what does that look like?Well, there, there, there should always still be, uh, justice, right? We’re not saying forgiveness doesn’t mean like, you know, you have car blanche to do here’s the other cheek. Okay. Here’s the, you know, okay, let me do it myself. I mean, it is, it’s about, um, yeah, I mean, if, if someone, if someone wrongs us, we should speak up, we should, uh, defend ourselves. Uh, that has, that is completely separate from forgiveness. And, and again, that’s, that’s so interesting. And I’m so happy you brought up this point, Jim, because that’s what people think mm-hmm, <affirmative>, I’ve, I, that’s what I thought. That’s why it’s seen as such a soft, uh, topic when it’s like, when, because it’s like, yeah, no, I’m not gonna leave myself open to, um, to people wronging me no way. And, um, and so that, that’s why having the resentment gives that illusion sense of safety. Um, but no, stand your ground, speak your voice. Um, we’re just saying don’t hold onto it.Right? Let itGo internally. Let it go. That’sThere’s something too. That’s coming up for me. And like I say, this, uh, a lot, this ain’t your mom’s forgiveness, Jim, this is the modern approach to what forgiveness means. This is non dogmatic. This is, um, nontraditional. This is, I choose to recognize that X, Y, and Z happened. This is how I feel about it. This is what I lost. This is what I learned. This is how a human, the other person. And then this is how I move on from the event. And that’s where all the power happens.So we’re separating it and it is a unique, right. We’re separating it from standing up for yourself. We’re self-respect and all of those types of things. And this is really, you know, a mental exercise are there. I I’ve been thinking about this since we first talked and I don’t know how to frame it. So gonna ask it who’s better at forgiving men or women.<laugh>Right. That’s a great question. So we, um, there, there’s been a lot of studies on this and, um, and they’ve even split up cultures to which cultures have more masculine traits and which cultures have more feminine traits. So women are better at forgiving. Men are better at forgetting. And so when we say, um, so when we say in terms of forgiveness, women are better at forgiving because we, uh, tend to, or, um, forgive more from the heart. It’s, it’s more of an emotional decision. Um, and when we do it, we’re doing it because it it’s for kind of, for the betterment of the tribe. So there’s a collective that’s part, that’s called a collectivistic culture. And so that tends to have more feminine traits. Um, I’m doing it for us and men will forgive, um, um, and forget more easily, which is, again, we don’t teach forgive and forget.Right. But, um, but is good, right? I mean, it’s like the definition of hap yeah. The Def definition of happiness is good health and a bad memory. Right. So we’re all about that too. Um, we’re not negating that. Um, but men will forgive more decisionally from their head, which is, um, more for self, which is, uh, part of what’s called the indivi individualistic it culture. So the United States is an individualistic culture. Um, and then we look at, you know, some, uh, uh, like, uh, some countries in south America are more, um, are more collectivistic. So it’s, it’s not so much in terms of like, who’s better at it. It’s just different ways of going at it. And, um, yeah, I mean, I, I, I bet women wish that they could forget more easily too. Um, but they, they, they seem to have they process it differently. That’s all.Um, if I might drop in a personal little story, um, Vero and I were talking about this and I, I was saying, how 20 years on a trading floor, I witnessed some really gross behavior, not just, you know, the, the stuff that you read about, you know, in, uh, the articles, but physical anger come out on the floor. I mean, pun hitting with a hard, you know, those big, old, black hard phones. I saw people beating each other and it’s primarily men. So I could say like, you know, everybody around me was, was basically male except for a few. And then they were just stop. And then it would be over because they needed the next deal. They were like, I’m beating somebody one minute and shaking hands the next minute, or having a, or having a beer after work because they need that guy for, for money in their pocket. So that was like a real, that, that was so obvious to me about how, I don’t know if it’s forgiveness, but it, it was definitely moving on from the, from the, from the event.Right. I, I feel like, you know, boys, growing up, you get into a fist fight and then it’s over. Mm. Whereas I think of, you know, the story of just girls growing up, never speak to each other again, because they wore the same outfit or something ridiculous. Um, but, but you’re right. You know, when I think of me, there are people wrong, me and they’re effectively dead to of me. Like, I just don’t think about them anymore and they’re not, you know, I would never, but I’m sure if I saw them, it would bring everything back where I’m like, I don’t like you. Um, but my wife on the other hand is fantastic about just addressing something and just clearing, clearing the air and, and getting rid of it. Um, is there a place for the forgive and forget, or is that just kind of irrelevant for this part of the, you know, do we need to teach more people how to address the, you know, yes. Logically I know I’m never gonna do anything with these people, and that’s how I forget, like logically you’re dead to me and that’s fine. Emotionally. I haven’t, is there a logic versus emotion component to this that that needs to be talked about?Yeah, well, we have to really be careful because I think that, uh, so there’s something called bypassing, right. So if I just is like, okay, you’re dead to me. I haven’t processed what’s happened. I haven’t really like honored. There was, there was something that was done and it hurt that I felt. And, um, I need to honor that. And what, and what is my lesson in that? Right. So, um, so we can just forget through a, by just bypassing, I’m just gonna skip over that part. And so, um, so there’s that, um, and, um, yeah, I mean, I just, so I, I just wanted to drop that in there because it’s really important. I don’t know if either is like more healthy than the other, the way the women do it, or the way that men are do it. Um, forgive and forget is amazing. If we can truly do it, mm-hmm <affirmative> right. That’s really like, I’m gonna forgive really forgive because I went through the entire process. I did digested everything. I alchemized it. And I transmuted it out into space. It’s done. And I’m able to forget every time I see you, my heart’s not gonna start racing. Right. That kind of having that kind of charge, um, really shows us that we haven’t really, we haven’t completed the process yet.Right. We haven’t addressedThat. You, you mentioned that with your own experience, Jim, right? Like if you see the person, all of a sudden you get jacked up again, it’s because you parked all that somewhere down deep so that you could be a productive member of society, but the truth is it’s still there. It’s like, you know, hanging out, down there, taking up space festering. I like to use the example. I may have said this to you in the past of, you know, when you’re, um, RS probably says like hearing this, but when you’re recycling the peanut butter jar, it’s the most annoying, difficult thing to get into the recycle bin because there’s that stuff at the bottom of the peanut butter jar that you gotta clean out somehow, that’s what real forgiveness is. It’s getting to the bottom of the thing. That’s bugging the crap out of you and, and real leasing it. And like Vero said, alchemizing it. And transmuting it. And then you’re, then you’re good. Then you can toss that thing in the, in the thing, in the,I mean, you could just throw it away anyway. <laugh> But it’s not the right thing. I hear what you’re saying.You’re right. But you’re firedFinal question off the board very quickly. That was a very quick, is there a limit, is there a limit to forgiveness? Is it possible to, to do things or, or, or, you know, where does, where does forgiveness actually end or the, the ability to forgive end?We, we really believe that everything is forgivable. And again, we wanna honor that there are huge things that people, uh, will feel called to forgive huge traumas that have happened, but we’ve got endless stories of, um, people who’ve ordinary people who are forgiven extraordinary things and the magic that has come into their lives, uh, the miracles that have come into their lives, the, the places they’ve gone to that they’ve elevated to, uh, is, is, I mean, it’s remarkable. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And so, yeah, everything, everything is forgivable. And I, and, you know, we, we ask that question in our podcast, like, what’s that thing that’s unforgivable, mm-hmm, <affirmative>, you know, everyone, and everyone’s got an answer and it’s, it’s usually similar and of course has to do around children. And, and so, um, so, you know, again, honoring, honoring how painful and devastating that is, um, and just knowing that there are people out there that are able to forgive that. And, um, and, and yeah, I mean, that’s, that is, uh, and it’s just anyway, so I, yeah, so that, that’s our belief, but I’ll let Denise drop in on that too.Yeah. I would say that, um, prior to doing this deep, deep work unforgiveness, I would’ve said that certain things were unforgivable. Um, what I’ve learned in these beautiful that we are going to include, um, in forgi 2.0, they’re called, uh, catching miracles. Um, there are so many stories of people that went through horrific trauma and they made a choice to work through it. Of course, a lot of work through it. We’re huge proponents in therapy. And we understand mental health is, uh, it has to be addressed tremendous traumatic situations. Um, they did the work and they decided to do other things. Um, they have, that’s why I say, it’s not your mom’s for forgiveness. They forgave, they forgave even a way that, um, honored their loss and allowed them to move forward in a different capacity without being tied to that awful, awful thing that happened. And I, we look at them and say, if they can do it, anybody can do it. The human, the human heart and mind has the CAPA, this type of healing. And if one of us can do it, all of us can do it.Excellent. That’s a perfect way to, to wrap it. I love the idea. I love the topic of forgiveness. Um, the final things we always end on the book recommendation and how people can find you. So why don’t you tell me about how people can find you first, uh, more information be on bellweather hub.com, but how can people find you help support you? What’s next?I’m just gonna give VES, uh, cell phone number out so they can just start calling her<laugh>.Um, no, it’s, we’re really easy to find. So, um, if you wanna email us, um, I’m Denise D N is egi.com and VES at the same handle, Vero forgi com. You could also hop on our website, which, um, I will just drop in a little note. We are a little bit under construction, but live, so get your info on there. Um, we’d also, we’re also on IG, um, forgi we’re on Facebook for all you Facebook fans. Um, we’re on TikTok, check on, check out our talks. You’reEverywhere. My goodness,My God. We’re everywhere. And, uh, Vero you wanna share what our gift is?Uh, yeah, so our gift is, uh, anyone that is listening. Oh, we’d like to give the app away for free to them to download. So all they have to do is go on the website, um, put in their email address, uh, or actually, you know, they can just email us, right, Denise, and then we’ll send a free link out. Yeah. Either wayYou’ll quicker. If you email one of us, ifYou email us directly. Yeah. That’s true. And, um, yeah, we’ll send you the free link. Uh it’s uh, O only for I iOS iPhone users. Now we’re working on getting it available for Android. Um, yeah. And so favorite book recommendations. I love anything by David Seras, just because laughter is the best hum best medicine, and that’s why we use it. Uh, we use humor in the program. Um, and, um, and from, from a more personal, uh, uh, I used to read the Alchemist, every new year’s, uh, I reread that book and, um, I just, I just love the, uh, story of the journey and, um, really listening to how the universe is speaking to us and how we can really stay connected to flow. And so, um, yeah, that’s one of my all time favorites.That’s actually one of my all time favorites too. Um, I am, I brought a current read with me because I also thought this was tied into your audience gym. It’s called emotional currency. Um, and the, uh, the tag is a woman’s guide to building a ha a healthy relationship with money <affirmative> and it’s, um, money as energy. And that the re better the relationship is with one type of energy. The better the relationship is with every type of energy. So I’m in the process of reading that I’ll send my book review in to bellwether when I’m done.Yes. I want to know. Um,Also I just started re-reading untethered soul.Yep.Um, which, and I bought the journal to go along with it because though we’re teaching forgiveness, there’s always work to be done and there’s always, you know, good stuff when you go deeper. So that’sMy all part of the journey. That’s good.What’s your favorite book? Jim?My favorite book is the Kani crystal, but I love your out chemist. Um, but I prefer sidhartha if you’ve read SidharthOh, I love Herman. He, yeah, amazing. SoThat’s, that’s myAmazing, that’s a,Goodhart’s my journey. Sidhartha Walden Kani, Christo. Probably my top three. SoThose are, oh, I love thatAlso.Yeah. Well, thank you. Well, thank you both for doing in this forgi forgi app. Look at them everywhere. I’ll have their info contact info email address. You can get the app for free. If you have iOS better get on Android soon. Cause I’m an Android user. Um, but that’s gonna be out soon. Use it. Come on, apple. My goodness. 20, 22, we need,We can open it up on an iPad. If you have an iPad appFor why would I have it had <laugh>?I mean,My wife has one, so we’ll do it on that. Um, but forg is, is it, it is. I do honestly sincerely believe, you know, psychological safety is, is the buzzword of the day it’s taking over organizations. Forgiveness is gonna be a significant part of that and right behind it. So this is, this is huge from personal accountability to changing a corporate culture. Forgiveness is a, a fundamental aspect to that. So Denise Vero, thank you so much for beingOn theShow. Thanks Jim.I appreciate it. And I look forward to seeing everybody out there soon.Thanks.Thank you so much for listening. Now, do something for yourself. Bellweather is much more than just a podcast. Join us@bellweatherhub.com, where you can read riveting articles, view upcoming events and connect with other interesting people. I look forward to seeing you out there soon.