Today Shawn has Brandon Cooper on the #AutomationTechTalk livestream to talk about what he’s learning in his travels. Note: There is no show planned for Friday or Monday. Watch Automation Tech Talk on The Automation Blog:



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Shawn Tierney (Host): Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the Automation Tech Talk lunchtime edition. You may hear some background noise because today, I have a special guest on. It’s Brandon Cooper, who you probably all know has written a bunch of articles over at the automation blog. And I’ve actually had Brandon on the automation podcast back on episode one zero six.

That was in 2022. Brandon, thank you for, agreeing to share your lunch with us.

Brandon Cooper (Guest): Hey. Glad to do it. Glad to do it. Thanks for

Shawn Tierney (Host): having me. You’re well. Thank you. And I was telling, Brandon in the preshow, he’s actually sitting in his backyard in Louisiana, and it just sounds awesome. He’s got birds chirping, and it sounds so great.

It’s like, man, that’s so relaxing. But in any case, let me see. Brandon, you are

Brandon Cooper (Guest): eighties this week, so it’s almost fall in Louisiana.

Shawn Tierney (Host): Yeah. Eighties. We got into the seventies. I had to put the heat on this morning because it was in the sixties, which is which is kinda odd for late August. How about you guys?

Is this normal for late August? Or

Brandon Cooper (Guest): not really. We usually don’t hit get into the eighties until, sometime in September, but we get we got a a lower temp week this week, so it’s it’s nice.

Shawn Tierney (Host): Yeah. I’m I’m not complaining at all. So you are a senior process control engineer, and, I know you from your what you do with POCs, but you also work on a lot of DCS systems or what would classically be called the DCS. And like I said, he Brandon was on, in episode one zero six. He’s written several articles on Rockwell and Siemens.

His latest one was on, simulating e threes, I think, for migration purposes. And he also wrote two articles recently on the things I’ve learned because, change. And I don’t want you to give away the actual companies you worked for, but describe your old old role and the new role you’ve been doing now to give the audience some perspective on that’s kinda how you change roles.

Brandon Cooper (Guest): So I guess for twenty two years, starting at 19 years old, I joined on as basically a process control type technician and then moved up to to a process control engineer and then a senior engineer later, you know, working in in specific specific facilities, you know, doing the day to day program and then graphics and troubleshooting and working with operations at a facility, which is also, you know, being on call twenty four seven for for all those twenty two years. So, it was it was great. I learned a lot and, helped me get to the next step, I guess. So, three years ago, I had the opportunity to take a job, where we travel around and and do things in different sites. And there’s, like a like a, capital project type, role.

And that’s been really good. I’ve, I’ve enjoyed it, learned a lot more, and just a a a different role. Kids are kinda grown now, so they didn’t need me at home as much anymore. So just a lot of things fell into place about the same time and, decided to do something a little different. So

Shawn Tierney (Host): Yeah. I could definitely see the appeal to that. So Brandon works. We’re not gonna give him the company names. Brandon works for re a major Fortune 500 company.

And those companies, they have big manufacturing facilities throughout the world, and they usually have their own people, their own techs and electricians on-site. But Brandon gets to come in and do the big projects, and, that sounds it sounds like the fun stuff, but it could also be, like, mission critical stuff. And so you’re traveling a lot. You’re not reporting to the same place every day. You’re reporting do you often like, every month, are you somewhere new?

Brandon Cooper (Guest): I tend to get on projects. You know, I might handle three or four projects at a time, different sites and probably different phases of those projects. So one might be scoping out, you know, phase one and and, getting together what we might be, putting together a scope and and deliverables and that sort of thing. And then the other project might be an execution next month. So, and and that might be from Florida to to Oregon.

So traveling a lot for certain periods and, you know, different phase like I said, different project phases require different attention.

Shawn Tierney (Host): You know, I wanna ask you about so from a PLC background, I’ve never used Emerson’s delta v, but I believe you’ve used it quite a bit, right, at different places?

Brandon Cooper (Guest): Yeah. I’ve I’ve used Emerson some over the years. I’ve, not used their PLCs a whole lot. They’re they’re, Delta v, DCS system. I have I have, used some.

Shawn Tierney (Host): So you were telling me recently, and I know you’re not a representative for Emerson. We’ve had Emerson on the show. We constantly invite Emerson to come back on the show to talk about these products. But just as somebody in the field there, you’ve heard about something new coming out, and it’s called the Delta v I q. Again, this is all just, you know, customer impressions, but can you share your impressions of what you’re hearing through the grapevine about this new product that’s coming?

Brandon Cooper (Guest): Yeah. So, Emerson, is kinda I believe they’re doing a really good job cutting edge, trying to, jump on the ether you know, Ethernet bandwagon of, I call it bandwagon. It’s, you know, Ethernet protocols all the way through the system. So that’s, you know, virtualization for for servers and op systems as well as their controllers. Their new IQ controller that I believe is coming out in version 16 that’s supposed to be released later this year.

The IQ can be is a is a totally virtual controller that has, you know, double the capacity of their previous, PK controller, 3,000 BSTs, I believe.

Shawn Tierney (Host): Wow.

Brandon Cooper (Guest): I think you can have 13 IQ controllers on a on a virtual system, so that’s, like, 30,000 DST points.

Shawn Tierney (Host): Wow.

Brandon Cooper (Guest): Quite quite impressive technology there. You know, that’s using charms I owe, on their network. And then, you know, they’re also playing in the instrumentation world with the, Ethernet APL. So, you know, theoretically, in a few years, there’s still there’s still a lot of things out there that are coming and and all that, but you could have a totally virtual system, you know, totally Ethernet system from instrumentation all the way to your controllers to your your servers and workstations and everything. So I I think that’s, I I think that’s on its way.

Shawn Tierney (Host): Yeah. I think on the Rockwell side, we saw Ethernet was going to really be the thing. Right? Right. And I I think that was we saw this become and I recently talked about the generations of control logics and or compact logics, I should say.

And with the 53, 35 e. Right? So the l 35 e and the l 32 e, you know, those products also came out with an l 32 c and an l 35 c. And, you know, the there was a l 31 serial, which I never knew anybody who was happy with that because of the speed. It’s slow.

Right? Because, the communications is slow. But in any case, when those products launched, right, I think it was I’d have to go back to the automation plot, but I think we’re talking, like, two thousand four, two thousand five. What really became obvious is that the 35 e and the 33 e outsold the the c’s by a ton. Right?

It’s like the age of Ethernet is here, and ETH and IO is here because nobody’s buying the, control net version. And so, you know, when the fifty three seventies came out, they were a 100% Ethernet. And so I think we can go back twenty years and say, Ethernet has won with SteelBus, and, of course, there’s different protocols we have. Ethernet. We have a trophy net.

We just had a prophylnet expert on talking about prophylnet. We’ve had multiple prophylnet experts on talking it. And, you know, there’s other you know, you still have Modbus TCP, which I know I just talked to Schneider. Even their latest product supports, Ethan IP and Modbus TCP. Right?

Right. So, you know, there’s that legacy as well, which is great because, you know, I I don’t like it when a vendor stops supporting the older stuff. Right? It’s nice to have that. I don’t know how I don’t you know, this is a brand new product from Schneider.

So I you know, it’s it’s a matter of fact, I got a box of them right here because the packing slip I’m I’m working on doing a, show and tell on a brand new next gen IO. And, I mean, this stuff is truly next gen. It’s just not a a a a, you know, paintbrush, you know, to make it look new. But in any case, with Ethernet having one, there’s still topology challenges with our standard Ethernet. Right?

And I think that’s where mingle pair Ethernet and Ethernet APL can really take us to the next level. And then, you know, aside from that, we also have the virtualization in where we see that. And, you know, I mean, in your in your business, not to not to talk about company specifics, where do you think, you know, virtualized POCs would work and where they wouldn’t work? Right? I mean, I I can definitely see some applications where they wouldn’t be a good fit.

Brandon Cooper (Guest): Yeah. Certainly, right off the top of my head, you know, safety systems, high speed, critical, guarding, anything like that, I I would certainly say you won’t see that anytime anytime soon or if ever. But I think overall, process control systems, I don’t see any reason that, you know, in the next five to ten years, you won’t see that largely implemented because the speed and the capability and everything you’re doing in a in a virtual system, you’re relying on it already for all your servers and op stations and things like that. The controller living in that same same system, is probably in a better environment than it was in the field. So while it might be slow to adopt, it’s certainly a viable solution, in the near in the very near future, I believe.

Shawn Tierney (Host): Yeah. You bring up a good point too because with a lot of process control systems, you can’t operate the system without your SCADA or HMI or, user interface. Right? There’s not a lot of discrete standalone parts that are totally separate. So if your main console and all your screens go down, you know, you can’t operate it.

And so in a lot of those cases, the PLC or DCS, the the main brain is installed in the control room. And so if you’re installing the brains in the control room anyways, can it be virtualized on some hardened redundant hardware versus, like, we do with SCADA today, versus being a brick. And I think the advantage, though, of having a hardware PLC is you can swap it out. The PLC dies, you swap it out. Where if you go with a virtual PLC, now you’re relying on the computer IT people to keep that robust and and, and up and running.

I I think there’s probably quite a few, stand alone, and I don’t know if you have any examples, but I’m sure there’s a lot of stand alone applications in your your facilities and others you’ve worked in where you don’t you don’t wanna you know, you if you lose a connection to the main control room, you don’t wanna stop. You don’t wanna stop production, whether it be palletizing, material handling, you know, shrink wrapping. I mean, I’m sure there’s a lot of things that are stand alone. Like, if the whole front office went away, this machine still has to run. Am I do you think I’m right about that?

Brandon Cooper (Guest): Yeah. Absolutely. You’ve always gotta have those, critical systems that are that are isolated and have to be you know, whether they can talk to the rest of the world or not, they they have to run. So there will always be places that you would you would stay away from, going totally virtual, I believe. But, I believe the overall system, I don’t I don’t see it as a problem to go in that direction.

Shawn Tierney (Host): How about Ethan at APL? What are you seeing on that side? What do you think the promise is there from the process perspective?

Brandon Cooper (Guest): So I guess what they’re calling gen one, it has been out several years. I believe interest Houser is leading that quite a bit. And, along with a lot of other companies, Emerson, a lot of other companies are are are playing in that world, and it’s developing. I think there’s some instrumentation out there, but I don’t know that there’s enough instrumentation released compatible to to say you know, do a whole facility at the moment. Now I have read about some facilities, I believe, in South America that have gone in that direction and, you know, are are making it work, but I don’t know that it’s all the way there.

I I believe, I like I say, I can’t speak for Emerson or anybody else, but I I I know that they’re looking at some, some gen two, opportunities where, you know, getting away from the the gen one, which was like switches with, APLs, Ethernet switches that had, you know, 20 devices plugged into it. You know, they’re looking at more of a one to one Ethernet APL, charm or or connection that, would provide a little more robustness than than having a single single point of failure for 20 plus devices.

Shawn Tierney (Host): You know, I I wanna throw out an invite too to whether it’s Emerson or Hintra Sousa. We’ve had them both on the show, the automation podcast. Love to put an invite out there for them to give us an update on Ethan and APL. We’ve, followed it quite closely, especially when I was doing the news, just all the different people who jumped on it, all the big players. I mean, pretty much everybody’s jumped on to it now, but we’d love to get those vendors on to tell us what they’re doing in that area and, you know, and give us more information about that.

Is there anything, Brandon, that you came across that was like an, oh, moment? Like, whether it was programming a POC or a DCS system, you know, think back over the last month or two. Any tips you can share with the audience that maybe, you know, you found a version, didn’t do something, or there was a feature in this that did something extra. Any any knowledge or or even if it has to do with your life of traveling, any tips you have for Mhmm. The audience from going from, like, being landlocked to being this world traveler?

Brandon Cooper (Guest): That’s a wide open question. So you mentioned protocols a minute ago and and my bus, TCP and and Ethernet IP and all those things. Whether it’s Delta v, whether it’s Honeywell, whether it’s Rockwell. You know? What I’m finding is that every time I go to scope something, there’s 10 different ways that I can topology wise that I can make this work.

And trying to come up with standards and, repeat ways of doing things that are you know? There might be three ways that are all good options, but trying to figure out the best way, whether that’s, like I say, every vendor’s got the got the capabilities to talk both. Say, say, let’s just pick on Honeywell for a minute and their EIM module, their c 300 to EIM module. You know, it’ll talk Modbus TCP or Ethernet IP depending on you gotta flash it one way or the other, and you can’t do both at the same time. But, you you know, looking at those devices and trying to figure out the best way to to handle, you know, a third party integration or a smart MCC, another p you know, another PLC, you know, whatever the case, you there’s just so many options and so many protocols, PRP, DLR.

Yep. You you name it. There there’s lots of options for everything you do, and, just trying to come up with those standards says, helps to not have to to to reinvent that wheel the next time.

Shawn Tierney (Host): You know, I know Rockwell, and I think all vendors do this, but I’m more familiar with the Rockwell examples where they have these, they’re they almost look like graph paper, but they’re example configurations. And I used to, love to use those to show people, you know, this is what you would do in this situation. So if you had a serval application, here’s the products that are recommended. If you have, you know, lots of VFDs, here’s the networks recommended. Here’s the topology recommended.

And I think I think it’s a good one vendors do that because, like you said, they all have so many options. Right? And and, you know, guidance. You know, you need to give guidance. Like, Siemens has they have basic modules.

They have standard modules. They have five functionality modules. Right? And it’s like, alright. So do I is it just price?

I mean, why am I choosing one or the other? Right? And so having that type of guidance from the vendors is always extremely helpful. I think, you know, for me, if I had to choose between Ethernet IP and Modbus CCP, I’d pick Ethernet IP because, you know, it’s a generational difference in, development. Right?

So you got Modbus, Modbus TCP when it came out versus Ethernet IP, PROFINET, and the other the other big guys up there on the the field buses. But then you could limit yourself something because, a lot of old products don’t talk, Ethan and IP. And, you know, a lot of vendors, they like the openness of Modbus TCP. So, you know, they can just implement it without too much hassle. You know?

Don’t have to join a group. Don’t have to get a spec and so on. So, yeah, that’s a good point. Hey. I may be traveling out to out across the country here in a couple months for a sponsored engagement.

And I wanted to ask you, any advice for somebody who hasn’t been traveling a lot, since you’re traveling an awful lot? What would be, like, your top couple of things? And I I do have one of the ones you recommended. I do have TSA PreCheck, which I am a big fan of. This is something my wife talked me into getting, and I love the shorter lines.

I love leaving my shoes on. I love all of that. But, other thoughts other thoughts that you have on, on just making making the traveling and since you’re traveling so much, what would you recommend?

Brandon Cooper (Guest): So, yeah, what I talked about several things as far in the articles, but, I would say in the article number two, probably, taking care of yourself is a big thing for, trying to eat eat healthy, exercise a little bit, things like that when you’re on the road. When you do it week after week after week, the choices you make will either benefit your life or take their toll. And, I guess I’ve learned some of those things the hard way. And then and then also, you know, just on the on the upside of traveling a lot, hey. Collect your points and, you know, get those you know, it’s your choice.

I’m not advocating for Hilton or Holiday Inn or or Marriott, any of them. But you pick your, you pick your, where you like to stay and and collect those points and then, use them later on your personal vacation.

Shawn Tierney (Host): Yeah. That’s a good point. It’s it makes sense to choose one company to get all your points with because I know a lot of people have taken personal vacations for free because they get so many points for work. So that’s, that’s really good advice. Before we before we close out the show, I did wanna let everybody know there’s no show tomorrow, and there’s no show Monday because Monday in The United States is a holiday.

So we’ll be back on Tuesday. I got another guest on who’s gonna talk about a totally different subject, so I’m I’m hoping, you guys will enjoy that episode as well. Of course, I hope you enjoyed our time we spent with, Brandon, and I’m really wish I was in his backyard right now with all the birds and and and and, it just seems like such a of a quiet, peaceful place. But with that, Brandon, we’re coming to the end of the show. Was there anything else, you wanted to share with the audience, before we close out the show?

Brandon Cooper (Guest): Not that I can think of, but, hey, I’ve been listening to your your your lunchtime show here lately, and, enjoy it. And I appreciate you doing it because it’s a it’s a good way to get tips while you’re eating your lunch. So appreciate it, Shawn.

Shawn Tierney (Host): Well, I thank you, Brandon. And I I would like to ask everybody if there’s something you wanna know or see. We did have somebody say, how do I connect the factory talk view to a micro 800? So I’ll be trying to do that next week. I think before I do that, I’m gonna roll in how to convert.

I think you and I both wrote articles on this, but I’m gonna roll in how to convert a Micrologix product project to a micro 800 because in my factory talk to you course, I I do everything but micro 800 just because of time. It was just so so time consuming creating a course that just for time, I left it out. But I’m figuring, hey. I might as well add it now because I’m adding I’m always adding lessons to my courses. So, in any case, if we wanna if we wanna see the courses I have available, the automationschool.com.

With that, Brandon, thank you so much, not only for coming on the lunchtime show today, but for all the articles you’ve shared with the audience over at the automation blog. And, again, if you have any tips or ideas, we’d love to have you submit them or even come back on the show and share with the audience.

Brandon Cooper (Guest): Sounds good. Thank you, Shawn.

Shawn Tierney (Host): Alright. And I’m gonna say goodbye to everybody on the live stream. Hope you guys have a great day. Again, I’m not on tomorrow or Monday, so have a great weekend. And until next time, I should probably go full screen.

That’s full screen of Brandon. That’s not full screen of me. Let me try that again. Until next time, my friends. Peace.

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Until next time, Peace ✌️ 

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Shawn M Tierney
Technology Enthusiast & Content Creator

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