Hello and welcome to the Art Life Faith podcast. I’m your host, Roger Lowther.

Every year, we have interns come work alongside us in what God is doing here in Japan through the arts. This summer, one of our interns was a phenomenal dancer named Anna Gardner Herren, with a huge heart for missions around the world. This was her third summer with us here in Japan, and she also made trips to Taiwan and Korea.

Last August, I interviewed her in this podcast—”#61 Summer Internships” if you’d like to have a listen—so I thought it would only be fair to give her a chance to interview me this year. She has her own wonderful podcast called The Purpose of Beauty, where she explores the role of beauty in our lives talking with various artists from around the world. In this episode that I’m about to share with you, we discuss some things that I’ve never talked about before on this podcast, especially about the music of Bach and its impact in Japan, so I think you’ll enjoy it.

You can find other episodes of her podcast by searching for The Purpose of Beauty or by going to our show notes. Here is our conversation:

Anna Gardner

Hello and welcome to the “Purpose of Beauty” podcast. I’m here with Roger W. Lowther, founder and director of Community Arts Tokyo and worship director at Grace City Church Tokyo. He also just happens to be my boss as the Mission to the World team leader in Japan. So let’s welcome Roger.

Roger

Thank you. Great to be here. Looking forward to talking with you about this.

Anna Gardner

I’m so excited to talk to you because you have so many books written about beauty, so I really wanted to hear some things that you had to say.

Roger

Sure. Well, where do we start?

Anna Gardner

Where do we start? Well, one of the things that I really enjoyed hearing you talk about is Bach, and especially Bach in Japan. So for those of you just tuning in, he is a really amazing organ player, has played all over Japan and America and probably other places as well. And he was telling me more about how Bach is so influential and important in Japan, possibly more so than America.

Roger

Yeah, I would say so.

Anna Gardner

But how did you first encounter Bach?

Roger

Oh, interesting question. I’ve actually never been asked that before.

Anna Gardner

Really? Well, I would love to know.

Roger

I was about to switch teachers between elementary school and junior high, and the teacher wanted to test me, audition me to see if he would take me on as a student. And so he gave me a lesson and said, “I want you to learn this piece.” It was from the Liturgical Year, the little pieces that Bach wrote, each one’s like a page long, so it’s not too hard. And I passed the audition. He said, “Wow, I’ve never had someone learn this so quickly.” I had nothing to compare it to so I didn’t know. I practiced really hard.

Anna Gardner

So Bach is one of your origin stories of playing the organ?

Roger

Yeah, I mean, it was a very stressful situation, so I didn’t actually enjoy playing the piece very much. But that was my first interaction. Yeah, and then it’s grown from there.

Anna Gardner

Wow. Did you ever think you would be playing it here in Japan?

Roger

No, Japan was not on my radar at that point. But actually after that, my audition to Juilliard, to college, was through a piece. They make you memorize and play a prelude and fugue of Bach, which are much longer as organ works than piano. It’s about 15 minutes, something like that. And so that was my first piece on the audition, and I will never forget any of the notes in that piece ever, because I had four other auditions before that one, and I recorded it, and it is permanently etched into my head. So yeah, right now I’m actually going through a whole project to record all of Bach’s sacred organ works.

Anna Gardner

Why his sacred organ works?

Roger

Because people really haven’t focused on that. They’re not technically as showy and interesting for people in concert situations. They’re like, “That’s a little too slow” or “a little too long.” And yet in worship, it’s “a little bit too long.” They don’t really want them in worship either. So people don’t really play most of the pieces in that collection. I thought, “Okay, well, the only way it’s going to be heard, is if I record it, maybe do a whole set.” I’m thinking of doing a whole marathon of it. It’ll be many, many hours to play them all in a row.

Anna Gardner

You’re going to play them all in a row?

Roger

At some point. This is a long-term project. Either next year or the year after that I’m getting ready for it.

Anna Gardner

That’s crazy. Well, best wishes for that. I also am curious, since coming to Japan and playing Bach, do you have any stories about your interactions with Bach here in Japan?

Roger

Oh, yeah. It really shocked me. I’m used to playing Bach in America, and you’ll probably have smaller audiences if you do an all-Bach concert with the organ. I think in America, we like having lots of color and orchestration and loud/soft dynamic changes and things like that. The organ is so good at changing colors. But Bach tends to be a more similar sound for longer periods of time. And yet it’s been amazing the reactions I’ve gotten from Japanese people. So a story: Just my first year here, I was meeting with a language partner to help me learn how to speak Japanese. We’d meet once a week and have conversations together. And one of the things I wanted to do was just practice speaking about Christianity in Japanese.

Anna Gardner

Oh, that’s actually so scary.

Roger

I knew it was needed. I needed to learn how to do it, but she didn’t want to talk about religion at all. She’s like, “No, no, no, let’s stick to politics and art and culture.”

Anna Gardner

You mean politics was easier than religion? Oh, my goodness.

Roger

Yeah, so we had a great friendship, but that topic was off limits. We’re not talking about religion. And I’m like, okay, well, I guess I’ll have to learn it some other way. Then Easter, that first year, I gave a concert at a local church and invited her. She wanted to support her language student, so she came. And at the end of the concert, she was in tears. And I was thinking to myself, What’s wrong? Maybe she got bad news. A family member is sick or something like that. And she said, “I can’t talk right now. We’ll talk next week.” I’m like, Okay. I hope she’s okay. And so then the next week, we got together for our usual scheduled language conversation. And she said, “I’ve never thought about hope that way. And the way you talked about it through the music of Bach and from the Bible. I’ve never heard that message before.” And that was the beginning of something. We were able to talk about religion quite frequently after that.

Anna Gardner

Because of Bach?

Roger

Because of Bach. It opened this doorway in her heart to something that was off limits before and to a little bit of herself. I still talk to her now. This is, I don’t know, 20 years ago. I’ve been here 20 years. So it opened doors to deeper relationships. And I have so many stories like that.

Anna Gardner

Do you have maybe one more that you want to share with us? Because I love that story.

Roger

Well, we’re looking out the window of my living room here, and at that building way over there, I gave a concert in the lobby of that business building. It’s a huge space, and I brought my organ and a battery, and I was playing music by Bach, and this guy came by. He’s like, “Oh, Roger. It’s so good to see you again.” He was a conductor who had hired me a number of years before to play the St. Matthew Passion.

Anna Gardner

Oh, beautiful.

Roger

Playing the organ continuo part. So those of you know the St. Matthew Passion, it requires quite a few singers. There’re multiple choirs and two orchestras. There’s a lot of echoing going back and forth, calling to each other. There’s a lot of people. First of all, I was the only non-Japanese in the room, but also I was the only Christian in the room.

Anna Gardner

Wait, you’re playing St. Matthew Passion? And you’re the only Christian?

Roger

Yeah.

Anna Gardner

That’s crazy.

Roger

And there’s one point in the rehearsal, the director knew that I was a missionary, and he stops. He was trying to explain like, “well, this is the point where, let’s just let Roger explain it because he’s a missionary. Roger, would you stand up and explain to everyone?” And I’m like, okay, first of all, I knew everyone in that room spoke Japanese better than me, and I’m like, That’s quite a lot of pressure for not making mistakes. But anyway, I did my best. And it was just through these rehearsals, people would ask me questions after like, “What does this mean?” And I remember during the concert itself, the conductor broke down in tears, and the orchestra members were looking at each other like, “What’s wrong with him?”

Anna Gardner

Like, while you all are performing?

Roger

While we were performing.

Anna Gardner

Oh, my goodness.

Roger

The musicians were like, “Is he having a heart attack? Should we stop and help him?” Because he’s faltering. This isn’t a professional orchestra. It’s a volunteer orchestra. And afterwards, I talked with him. He said, “I want to be a Christian. Never before has the message hit me so deeply.” That was a fall concert, October, and he was baptized that following Christmas worship.

Anna Gardner

Okay, that’s crazy.

Roger

Yeah. There were others as well in the orchestra who were reading through the text and trying to figure out why this was so powerful and what was going on. Where else would Japanese people who have never seen a Bible before…here they were reading scripture in this context because of the music of Bach. It’s just amazing how God has provided this doorway.

Anna Gardner

It’s such a bridge to use the arts to share the gospel. And you would know that because you lead Community Arts Tokyo here. But that’s really special that Bach was such a gateway for you to be able to talk about God. So wow.

Roger

Yeah. Praise God.

Anna Gardner

I was reading one of your works. You’ve written so many books, and we need to talk about that soon, too. But I was reading one of your books about Bach in Japan and was wondering why it’s specifically impactful for Japanese people. Do you have any ideas?

Roger

That is a difficult question to answer.

Anna Gardner

Sorry.

Roger

I’ve been trying to figure it out for years. I think that in the arts, there’s this idea of trying to give an image to yourself in order to sell more works to be more successful like that. Bach was completely the opposite. He’s more like a craftsman. He just wanted to do the best he possibly could in his local context. Leipzig was not one of the biggest cities in Germany at the time. And so he’s just doing his thing, doing it to the best of his ability. And I feel like a lot of artists in Japan are like that, too. It’s more about the work they make rather than the name attached to it. Some of the greatest works of art here, it’s not about their name. It’s not written on there. You may not even know who wrote it. It could be anonymous…Oh, man, who made this?…that craftsman mentality. So I think that’s part of the answer.

Anna Gardner

That makes sense because even from something like rice balls, there’s this idea of making it right and making it well. And there’s people who are famous for making a rice ball well. But of course, they weren’t making it well to be famous. Why would you want to become famous for making rice balls? But at the same time, there’s something really Japanese to me about that, about investing your time to make something really well, not for other people to look at you and say you did it well, but just to do it well.

Roger

Yeah, definitely. Actually, the most famous artist in Japan for the music of a Bach, Masaaki Suzuki…he’s really famous, I mean, when you go to the Leipzig Museum, the foremost museum about the music of Bach, it seems like half the recordings there are by Suzuki. So a Japanese group, the Bach Collegium of Japan, is representing the music of Bach globally, but he’s a very humble man. He wasn’t doing it for his own glory or anything like that. “Let’s record all of the cantatas of Bach to the best of our ability and just see what happens.” And God has really blessed his efforts in that.

Anna Gardner

That’s so beautiful. I think it inspires me that people would care about doing something well, not to be seen. I feel like as a Christian artist, sometimes I’m saddened by seeing non-successful or Christian works that to me, aren’t that great. But then when I see people who are Christians or non-Christians just doing something really well. I feel like we, as Christians, should also work so hard to do things well for Christ.

Roger

I appreciate beauty and things done well for sure. Because it lowers walls and it allows for more people to interact with the artwork, to build community around that artwork. I feel like when things are not done as well, it feels like it’s…I don’t know, if you’re trying to put more meaning on the message…then it’s almost manipulative. “You should care about this because of the message.” Well, if it’s good, you can’t help but be drawn in.

Anna Gardner

I think that’s one thing that I’ve really been encouraged about with Community Arts Tokyo. For reference, this is my third summer interning with Community Arts Tokyo.

Roger

Thank you for coming back so many times!

Anna Gardner

I’m so happy to come back because not only do we get to interact with a bunch of really amazing artists, but Christian artists who are making works really well for God. You’ve probably experienced that way more than me here.

Roger

We feel really blessed that we’re surrounded by such an amazing community of people who do their art to the best of their ability. We really inspire each other and encourage one another. I love that community.

Anna Gardner

It’s really a community. I think that you and your family and these other artists from the church and Community Arts Tokyo have created a community where we are able to invite people in who are not Christians, even who are not artists. It’s something that’s been special to me and special to some of my friends. To me, it’s really beautiful. That brings me to the point of, what is the purpose of beauty in your life?

Roger

Oh, you need to read my books!

Anna Gardner

Oh, yes. Tell us about your books, please.

Roger

Aroma of Beauty is one. Hidden Beauty is another.

Anna Gardner

That one’s my favorite.

Roger

Yeah, I mean, I thought a lot about this… Let me tell you a story. It’ll be easier that way. I used to think that beauty was something decorative, that it was something unnecessary. It’s only something for when you have the time or money to do. And then in 2011, we had that large earthquake, and I ended up going up as a truck driver bringing food, water, supplies.

Anna Gardner

To the countryside of Japan, right?

Roger

Yeah, and I thought, that’s what people need in that situation. But we found out from day one, from my very first trip, that beauty was just as important as all those other things, that people actually could not live without it or it led to despair. It led to “Why go on living? We lost everything.” And yet, somehow, beauty would bring not just encouragement, but hope, which is really powerful in that situation. And so that’s why I called the book Aroma of Beauty. It’s a bunch of stories about how people are finding hope through beauty in that terrible situation.

Anna Gardner

Yeah. How can we find your books?

Roger

They’re all on Amazon or wherever you buy books online.

Anna Gardner

I’ll link it in the show notes. Okay, great. And tell us about your new book, too.

Roger

Yeah, my new book comes out August 1.

Anna Gardner

Yes. So the day this podcast airs, your book should be live.

Roger

Awesome. Go buy my book.

Anna Gardner

Yes. Go check out his book.

Roger

I really had fun writing this one. It’s called Hidden Beauty: Seeing God in Japan.

Anna Gardner

Wait, is this the one that you wrote on the plane?

Roger

I don’t think so.

Anna Gardner

Okay, no. I just remember you writing one book, literally on your plane ride to or from Japan.

Roger

I’m always writing on my plane rides.

Anna Gardner

I love it. Okay, but the Hidden Beauty book.

Roger

Yes.

Anna Gardner

Which I’ve gotten to preview, and y’all haven’t.

Roger

We do a series every month called Art, Life, Faith. It’s a great opportunity for artists to try to connect and work out what it means to connect their art, their life, and their faith. We feature a different artist every month. Those are great, but I realized that I wanted to share those stories with more people. We had the gathering, the event, but what if we try to get this in print? Try to continue the process, continue the conversation. And so quite a few people in that book were part of those Art, Life, Faith discussions. I wanted to get their stories out there and work with them. And it was amazing to see the excitement on their faces. Like, “Oh, my story is coming out in print. Thank you, Roger.” So I’m working with them asking, “Is that accurate? Would you change the wording of that.” And they’d respond like, “Yeah, maybe I would change that, but that sounds good.”

And so seeing God in Japan, it’s about Japanese people seeing God in their lives, but also through the art, culture, and history of Japan. I would say that even if the readers are not interested in Japanese culture at all that they would still be interested in the book. “How do we see God in our daily lives? How can we worship God through anything that we do every day?” That’s basically the message of the book.

Anna Gardner

Which is a lot about ethnodoxology, another thing I really wanted to ask you about. I don’t know if you remember this, but about a year ago, I went and met one of your friends in Korea who is an artist, and we talked about ethnodoxology in Korea. But I would also love to talk about ethnodoxology for our listeners in Japan. What does that look like? And first of all, what is ethnodoxology?

Roger

Okay, first, ethnos means the peoples, the nations, and doxology means praise, praise of the nations. People were thinking how do we get the Bible, how do we get scripture, how do we get the gospel into every language in the world, worshiping God through their heart languages rather than translating into English or something like that. But then about 25 years ago, there was this big movement to ask what does that look like through the art languages: the ethnic instruments, musical forms, ways like that… Because there’s still this image in Christianity of importing either contemporary worship songs or traditional hymns, and that those are the only things that are legit when it comes to worshiping God. So how do we encourage the nations by saying, “Your art forms are legitimate in worshiping God.” At the time, that was basically unheard of. It was very controversial, and people got angry, and they stood against it. Even here in Japan, we’ve seen that. Okay, can I share a story about this?

Anna Gardner

Please do. I would love to hear a story.

Roger

So we’re sitting here next to some kotos. [music] You just heard me pluck one of the strings. My son is learning the koto from Chieko.

Anna Gardner

I love Chieko-san.

Roger

Her story is great. She became a Christian, and she was a professional koto player, a traditional Japanese harp. And when she became a Christian, she’s like, “Oh, now I have to give up the koto and learn the piano.”

Anna Gardner

Wait, what? That doesn’t make sense.

Roger

Because she’s a Christian now, and that’s the only legitimate art formsfor Christianity.

Anna Gardner

The only instrument you can play as a Christian is the piano?

Roger

Or the guitar.

Anna Gardner

Yeah. No.

Roger

In Japan, there is that image, and the koto is associated with the temple or the shrine. She’s like, “Oh, no, that can’t worship God. That’s another religion.” And so she was bummed about that because she was a professional and that was what she had dedicated her life to.

Anna Gardner

Wait, first of all, that’s incredible that she would be willing to become a Christian knowing that.

Roger

I know.

Anna Gardner

Yeah. That’s actually really moving.

Roger

That’s part of the power of her testimony. But we invited her as a church staff at Grace City Church Tokyo. We prayed about it and approached her and said, “We would like you to play in worship on the koto.” And she’s like, “No, I can’t do that. It will not go well.” And we’re like, “No, no, no. We want to do this. We think it’ll be good.” And she’s like, “Okay.” So she did. And she was shocked as she was playing. Tears were streaming down her cheeks as she felt like for the first time she was able to worship through her heart language of koto music. She had no idea that she could worship God through koto music. It just had never occurred to her before with the image she had of Christianity, that God would love her to the depths of her being, the very identity of who she was as a koto player. So it was really moving to have her play.

Anna Gardner

That’s really beautiful.

Roger

But…

Anna Gardner

But? Oh, no.

Roger

After worship, that’s when the trouble started. There were a lot of angry people. We had a lot of meetings, not the types of meetings that you really want to have. People were saying, “I could not worship because of that instrument. How dare you sneak in that instrument? It prevented me from worshiping. It was very distracting.” They were very upset.

Anna Gardner

That’s crazy because to me, I feel like it would be very moving and beautiful in worship.

Roger

Yeah, you would think so. I mean, it’s not a loud instrument. It’s pretty subtle.

Anna Gardner

It is so subtle.

Roger

But do you know what the key was? When we shared, “Did you see the tears coming down her cheeks as she was playing? It was so powerful. She was worshiping God through her instrument. And we want to first love her and embrace her. And personally, I too was drawn in praise alongside her. I was able to worship God more fully because of her playing. Can’t you see it in that way?” Then they were like, “Oh, well, I guess if you put it in that way.” They thought we were trying to be clever and tricky, sneaking in our agenda of bringing in traditional Japanese instruments just to be cool or something, like a gimmick. No, it’s not about being a gimmick. It’s about a relationship with Chieko and loving her, embracing her, allowing her to worship God and coming alongside. That was the key. So then next time she played in worship, they were able to worship as well because they felt, even though they didn’t know how to worship God through that, they could worship alongside Chieko in her relationship with God. It was so powerful and so good.

Anna Gardner

I love that story, and it makes me so happy to hear that she was able to use her art form for Christ, even though it’s not a traditional Christian instrument, if you will. It reminds me of another artist that I think might be in your book, Kei-san. We have this wonderful friend at our church. His name is Kei-san, and he makes fashion design beautiful clothing. He’s a Japanese fashion designer. I remember putting on one of his designs and thinking, I want to dance in this. He actually allowed me to borrow this design and take it to Nagoya and perform in it. I bring this up because maybe it’s not a traditional way to worship through dance or to worship through wearing a costume or a fashion design. But to me, this fashion design was part kimono and part Western wear. I wore this to portray the story of Ruth, who was a foreigner living in Israel. While I, as an outsider to the Japanese culture, I first see the kimono fabric. I see that it’s in the shape of a kimono, and to me, it seems so Japanese. But to all the Japanese, they only see how it’s different.

They think, “Oh, that’s not a kimono. That’s so different.” It’s different. How they see me. They don’t see me as “she’s nice and respectful.” They see me as, “she’s an outsider.” And so it helped me to see the story of Ruth and to see how she might have experienced herself in Israel, being an outsider and people seeing her as an outsider. But yet she made this firm commitment to God, to our God, despite her being a Moabite. And so if she could worship the God of Israel, and I can also worship God with dance, and you can worship God with the organ, and Chieko-san can worship with the koto, then that is ethnodoxology in our daily lives.

Roger

Yeah, it’s something that only every individual person can answer because sometimes it surprises us what that looks like. For example, I was thinking recently about my recent podcast with a heavy metal musician. He has a very large following here in Japan.

Anna Gardner

Wait, is he Japanese?

Roger

He’s Japanese.

Anna Gardner

But he does heavy metal? Yes. And he’s a Christian.

Roger

Yes. And he’s a Christian.

Anna Gardner

And he’s a Christian? Tell me more.

Roger

Okay. I mean, it really fits the subject of ethnodoxology because you may think, “Okay, koto, that makes sense. A traditional Japanese instrument. Heavy metal? Not so much.” I mean, that’s a Western art form. The West is imposing their musical styles on the rest of the world. Isn’t it terrible? But this singer, we call him Tone…

Anna Gardner

Tone?

Roger

In our interview, he told me how he felt like he was born to this, that God called him into this. If you listen to his music, you notice, first of all, it’s heavy metal, but he’s singing in Japanese. So okay, it’s in Japanese language. And he’s using Japanese traditional scales.

Anna Gardner

Actually? Wait, are they different than the ones we use in America?

Roger

Yeah, they’re actually koto scales. It’s different. And so you can hear it very clearly on his guitar, he’s going through the Japanese scales. But he says the reason this is Japanese music isn’t for those reasons but because he’s a Japanese man worshiping God in his context. That makes it Japanese. That makes it the praise of the nations. When you think ethnodoxology, you wouldn’t think particularly of a Japanese person worshiping God through heavy metal music.

Anna Gardner

No, that’s not what I would think of, Roger.

Roger

That’s not the image that comes up. And yet that fits the category as well, right? I mean, he is very good at what he does. He’s very technically proficient, loves high quality. When you watch his music videos online, you’re like, “Wow, that’s really good.” And I think we are going to see Tone in heaven leading us all in worship of God through heavy metal music.

Anna Gardner

That’s crazy.

Roger

Yeah. And it’s going to be representing the country of Japan in a sense. It’s all about how we praise God in our context with who God called us to be. And it’s different. With heavy metal music, it’s an in-your-face-a-little-bit art form. It’s very loud. It’s very fast. And yet there’s this sense that through it, you are giving everything—all your mind, body, soul, all your technical proficiency, all your energy, all your passion, it’s all coming through. And heavy metal as a style can do that better than, well, koto music, as a contrast.

Anna Gardner

You know, koto is like the silent version, the inner version.

Roger

Yeah. So I think God gifts these art styles to us in order to praise him. That’s what ethnodoxology is. To be able to praise through this gifting that God gives us, whether it’s organ music or dance or whatever it might be in our context, in our communities, for his glory.

Anna Gardner

That’s beautiful. The praise of the nations. Well, thank you so much for telling us about ethnodoxology and about how God can be glorified not just in piano and guitar. I want to ask you just a couple more questions. The first one is, is there any way that we can be praying for you?

Roger

Yes.

Anna Gardner

How can we pray for you?

Roger

Well, as you know, as a church we’ve been on the move for 15 years with no permanent worship space.

Anna Gardner

What does that look like on a Sunday morning?

Roger

So that has been very busy. We had all of our church equipment stored in a van in a large building on a weird elevator mechanical robot system.

Anna Gardner

Like one of those rotating car things? Oh, my goodness.

Roger

We’d have to do that and drive it to the venue wherever it was. There were many different venues, and then unload and set up, and then do the whole process in reverse.

Anna Gardner

Which is just so exhausting on a Sunday morning. The sound people and the helpers set up the whole church, which is not a small church.

Roger

No.

Anna Gardner

And then take it down and then start over the next week and not have anywhere to come during the week.

Roger

So from June 1, for the first time, we have a semi-permanent space we can use throughout the week. We thought, great, we’re going to have more time. And we do but for different things. Now that we have a space throughout the week, we’ve been using it throughout the week for so many great things. And God has really been giving us many opportunities for meeting new people, for evangelism, for discipleship. And it’s so exciting. But it’s also very tiring. And the setup process from June first until now, we’re speaking mid-July. We’re a little bit tired. We’ve really been pushing. It’s been really good, but I’m looking forward to resting a little bit for the rest of this summer and recovering from that.

Anna Gardner

Yeah. I wonder if you could talk to any of our listeners who might be artists who just need some rest. How do you find rest in God or in art when you’re exhausted from working so hard?

Roger

Well, I’m probably not a good example of that. What I do personally is change the art that I’m focused on for a little bit.

Anna Gardner

Okay, well, that is true. You never stop.

Roger

So if I’m focused really hard on music and then I get really worn out from music, I can switch then to writing. And in different genres of writing, whether it be writing fiction or non-fiction. And personally, I find that really energizing to switch what I’m focused on in my creative projects.

Anna Gardner

I do understand that, though. It’s a different pathway of your brain. Well, I know we can be praying for you about getting some rest, whether that’s changing your art form for a little while or whatever. But is there anything else we can be praying for, for Community Arts Tokyo as an organization in the future?

Roger

Yeah, I’ve been actually a little bit disappointed about the way this movement hasn’t grown like I had hoped within the church in Japan, this idea that art plays an important role in worship, in evangelism, in discipleship. There’re so few Christians in Japan. Churches are small with mostly older people. We’re seeing great things happen in our church and churches in our immediate network, but I really need to see this movement spread further, wider. How can we help the nation hear these stories? That’s one reason I started writing. We really need more people to come alongside us so we can be in more cities, working with more churches. And I would love to see God grow the church here in Japan, to see his kingdom grow and for arts to be a part of that.

Anna Gardner

Well, we will definitely be praying for that. I think we can all agree that that is something we all also want. So thanks for sharing that. I have one final question for you, but I’m going to give you a second to think about it while I close out the podcast. Do you have any advice that you would give to our listeners? I don’t know if I have any listeners who are organ players currently, but we might start something. But just artists or people who use the arts in their daily lives or are no longer professional artists but are Christians. For that purpose, as they pursue beauty, whether that’s in just going to worship and getting ready for worship and putting on a Sunday dress, or whether that’s making beautiful things for Christ. Do you have any advice that you would personally give to our listeners who are artists and also not artists.

Roger

Yeah, sure.

Anna Gardner

While you think about that, I’m going to briefly close out the podcast. Thank you so much for listening. The goal of this podcast is not to get famous, but just to share some beautiful stories of people that I have met and to hopefully allow you to be encouraged by the way that they see Christ through their art. And I’m really excited to have Roger on here. He’s written some wonderful books. So if you’re more interested in learning about the purpose of beauty or the aroma of beauty or the hidden beauty of art in Japan, and Christianity in Japan, you should go check out his books. I’ll definitely link it in the show notes. They’ve been really helpful for me as an artist, so I hope you’ll go check them out. They’ve been so encouraging.

Roger

Thank you for that endorsement.

Anna Gardner

That is not a paid endorsement. I want y’all to enjoy this and be encouraged by something that is so encouraging to me. So with that, I’ll turn it over to you to close this out.

Roger

Well, the advice, I guess I would say to artists is to not be discouraged, that God has given us certain gifts and passions to do things. And if we rely on people for encouragement to do it, then a lot of pathways end up being closed. For example, when I first started writing, people were like, “You’re an organist. You’re not a writer. Why are you writing?” And I had people saying, “Missionaries, you’re supposed to be in meetings all the time.”

Anna Gardner

What? Aren’t you supposed to be serving?

Roger

If I had just listened to people’s voices when I started writing during COVID, I would have not been writing now. And I do feel like God has blessed that to get certain stories, certain messages out to wider groups of people. And so that’s the message I have for other artists, too. Be creative. Enjoy what you’re doing and see God enjoying what you’re doing and delighting in it. And if you are able to praise God through what you’re doing, others will come alongside and be able to praise him as well.

Anna Gardner

Amen to that. That’s so encouraging. Thank you for that. And thank you so much for joining our podcast.

Roger

Thank you for inviting me.

Anna Gardner

Hope to have you back on again sometime. Which means I have to come back to Japan, right?

Roger

Okay. Well, we’ll be here.

Anna Gardner

Thank you so much. I hope you’ll have a wonderful rest of your day.

Roger

Bye.

Thank you for listening to the Art Life Faith Podcast. As we say in Japan, “Ja, mata ne.” We’ll see you next time.