It has been a while friends! I started producing this podcast back in 2018, and by 2023 I had recorded 75 incredible episodes that are all still very available for your listening pleasure. 

The last podcast interview I recorded was with Rachel Brice, and I also recorded amazing conversations with Suhalia Salimpour, Carloeen Nereccio, Jill Parker, Jillina of Belly Dance Evolution, Ebony, Kamrah, and many more brilliant dancers. 

Fusion Dance Icon Rachel Brice - 075

This interview with Rachel Brice dives deep into recent American belly dance fusion history and fashion. Rachel reminisces about her influencers Suhaila Salimpour, Carolena Nericcio of FatChanceBellyDance® (formerly ATS), and Jill Parker, and opens up about inclusiveness and past mistakes fusing dance forms. 

I always dreamed of interviewing Zoe Jakes. When Kaeshi Chai brought Zoe Jakes and Dalia Carella together for an incredible Bellyqueen belly dance event in New York City titled Zoe Jakes in NYC in October 2024,

Kaeshi invited me to moderate a panel discussion titled Moving the Needle Forward – Sharing Our Dance with Wider Audiences.

“Join a dynamic conversation with trailblazing artists Zoe Jakes, Dalia Carella, and Kaeshi Chai, moderated by Ailcia Free. These renowned performers will explore innovative ways to bring belly dance to diverse audiences, from mainstream stages to out-of-the box collaborations. Discover how each artist bridges cultural, artistic, and personal expression in their performances, and learn strategies to connect belly dance with new communities. Perfect for dancers, teachers, and enthusiasts eager to expand the reach of this vibrant art form!”

I hopped on a bus bound for NYC. 

Kaeshi Chai on Bellydance Superstars and Bellyqueen - 042

New York City Belly Dancer Kaeshi talks about touring the world as a dancer, screaming when dancing, and Beauty Reimagined. And her doumbek playing husband Brad Mack gives us tips on how to become a better performer. 

Zoe, Kaeshi and Dalia showed great photos while they spoke during the panel. Scroll down to see the photos mentioned in the podcast recording. 

World Fusion Dancer Dalia Carella of NYC Tells us Like it is - ALLAF 018

Discover Dalia's secrets on doing belly dance fusion well, find out why she dances Flamenco Arabe on beautiful angles, and know what to do next time your inner voice says, "I'm not sexy enough". 

Sorry if you need to turn up some parts of the recording to hear the panelists and questions from the audience well. I recorded this old school style with one mic in a dance studio of dancers overlooking Manhattan. The recording turned out pretty good considering I just had a small backpack with me for equipment and everything else needed for the weekend of classes with Zoe, Kaeshi and Dalia. Here we go! 

Alicia Introduces the Panel 

Welcome to this dynamic conversation with trailblazing artists Zoe Jakes, Dalia Carella, and Kaeshi Chai. I am Alicia Free, host of the Belly Dance Podcast A Little Lighter. I am honored to be here with these renowned performers who will help us explore innovative ways to bring belly dance to diverse audiences, from mainstream stages to out-of-the box collaborations. We’ll discover how each artist bridges cultural, artistic, and personal expression in their performances, and learn strategies to connect belly dance with new communities. 

Art forms continuously dance in and out of mainstream culture, and these artists have have brought the dance we love -belly dance- to diverse audiences for decades. We know the value and beauty of our dance, but so many people still do not. 

Where Did Belly Dancing Come From? Belly Dance History up to the 1900s - ALLAF 019

Travel back in time to belly dance like Ghawazee and Awalim dancers from Egypt, Ouled Nail dancers from Algeria, and Rom dancers who developed the art of belly dance centuries before us.

And there were peaks of belly dance popularity like the Golden Age of Egyptian film, the 1960s Reda Folk Dance Troupe, Am Cab in NYC and Ren Faires in California. 

A Short and Sweet History of Belly Dance from 1900-1960s: From Folk to Fame - ALLAF 023

From Badia Masabni's night clubs to belly dance movie stars like Samia Gamal, and from Suhalia up through the Women's Rights Movement. The 2nd show on the History of Belly Dance.

Sha’abi in the 70s, and our panelist Dalia Carella saw belly dance history first hand starting here.

The History of Belly Dance Starting with the 1970s: Feminism, Flights & Stigma - 028

Celebrate 1970s Strictly Belly Dance records by Eddie the Sheik, admire the moves of Egyptian belly dance star Mona Said, and take a peek into stigma and the gritty lives of many belly dancers in Cairo now.

Then the 1980s dance exercise craze. And then in the 1990s, big bands start to disappear. Then starting in 2000 Belly Dance Superstars which 2 of our panelists Zoe Jakes and Kaeshi Chai were part of, brought belly dance into giant theaters all over the US. In 2005 there was Shakira’s Hips don’t lie, and then in 2007 the same producer who created Belly Dance Superstars produces Zoe Jakes and Beats Antique. This will be an exciting conversation about the more recent history of belly dance and the inspiring places these amazing dancers think bellydance can and will go.  

We will start with the oh-so-loveable Kaeshi Chai…

Kaeshi Chai on Collaborating with Partners who Already Have an Audience 

Thank you so much, Alicia. I’m so glad you were able to make it. I’ll share with you a little bit about my background just to give you some context, so that you’ll understand how that informs my perspective.

And then after that, we’ll go to some takeaways. Maybe you can think about how certain tools and techniques and ideas that I’ve applied to my own journey can be applicable to you.

In 2002, Bellyqueen, a trio that formed in 1998, performed in Las Vegas for a six month contract. We had five shows a day. So we had 500 shows and we performed with contortionists and incredible Arabic musicians that recorded with Muhammad Abdel Wahab. We were so spoiled and every day each show had 100 people watching, half of whom were children, in fact.

And then we had the opportunity to perform with the Bellydance Superstars and that toured all over the United States and Canada and Europe.

And I started a community called PURE. In 2004, we went out into the streets to bring more color to New York City after it was under the shadow of 9/11.

And with Pure we also created “A Collection of Beauty Reimagined” which is a theatrical dance show about learning to love yourself even if the media says that beauty fits into a certain box and what you see in the mirror is different from what is in the magazine.

And that toured for five years, I went to places like Mexico city and Taiwan and Japan and different parts of America. We would do circle shares where we discuss how each culture is different. And then we would change the show to reflect the people that were in the show and watching the show. So for example, in Mexico, A lot of people suffer from alcoholism, whereas in Japan they suffer from working too hard. In fact, you can die from working too hard. I did not know that until we went to Japan.

Then I had the opportunity to tour with Belly Dance Evolution for five years, and we performed in Morocco for the Queen, and that was a really fun, amazing experience.

The Evolution of Jillina - 062

Belly Dance Superstars Choreographer Jillina Carlano on courage, contribution, and marinating yourself in music. From performing in prison, touring the planet and stumbling forward through the reckoning in the dance community. This is an amazing podcast interview.

And with Journey Along the Silk Road, this toured from 2009 to 2016.

This is from a poster for the show in Australia. We trained 25 dancers in each city and performed in Perth at the Fringe Festival, as well as Brisbane and Sydney.

And these are some shots from that. Basically, the story is a princess travels along the Silk Road to collect three magical ingredients to save her mother, who was the empress, and in this fictional story, the queen, Nefertiti, and Hu Zetian, who is the empress of China during its most prosperous period, the Tang Dynasty, they meet each other.

So, that was a really amazing show. I also had a chance to perform with Bella Gaia, and that is using massive projections with a live band.

And this is from the Miller Theater in Texas, where we perform for thousands of people there.

Two years ago, I joined a contemporary dance company in California at the ripe young age of 48.

And these dancers are all in their 20s, so I could be their mother.

And perform Persian dance at libraries and preschools. And I also got the chance to go into a bunch of preschools in May for Asian American month, and I’ve been working with little kids, which is unexpected. But the gift of what happens when you press a big fat reset button in middle age and you change your environment, like move to California for two years, so you can just change what you do.

This was from Ocean Stories. I did this in Australia last year in partnership with different scientists. Jellyfish scientists, marine biologists, bioscientists, and the Exploratorium Museum commissioned me to do a piece about the root system of forests, the mycelium network.

This is my passion project, Nature Stories, and I’ve run it eight times this year in California, mostly because I know some scientists and environmental activists out there and we’ve been putting it together.

9 Reasons Why Belly Dance is Amazing
1. Belly Dance Helps Me Feel More Sexy and Connected to my Body

Now, some belly dance pros. For me, what attracted me to start it in the first place back in 1996 was

I just wanted to feel more sexy and more connected to my body

I didn’t actually know very much about it, so it was a draw for me.

And if you’re looking at the most popular people on Instagram, A lot of them are very sexy. Right? J. Lo, the Kardashians. So there’s some mass appeal associated with being sexy.

2. Belly Dance Helps with Longevity

What I love about our dance form is that, unlike ballet or contemporary, where dancers often retire at age 30, we can keep going, and going, and going. And I, as a producer, I’ve booked dancers like Anahid Sofian, who was in her mid eighties and she’s still performing and teaching. I love that. With our art form, similar to flamenco, you become more comfortable in your own skin as you get older.

I don’t think a dancer’s worth is measured by how high she can kick her leg or how many backbends she could do

3. Belly Dance Moves Echo Patterns of Nature

The figure eights, the undulations, the spirals, for me, they make me think of sacred geometry and what we see when we look out in the ocean, when we look at a shell, and it’s the perfect vocabulary to use for my passion project, Nature Stories.

4. Belly Dance can be done in a Small Space

With our dance form, we just need a little square to stand on and you can express a whole song with your body. Unlike contemporary modern where you need a lot of space.

And so, that really opens up a lot of venues. You don’t need as much space to create a show.

I have been in communication with the Monterey Bay Aquarium. And they’ve been giving me some Tours of different areas in their space that could be activated with dance. And it’s fine for a belly dancer, but it’s too small for a contemporary dancer. So something to think about. We may edit that out because that’s, I don’t know, it’s more on the DL, not really out in the open.

https://youtu.be/1EgxC5d1-oA?si=fuaBxf2QGMtPVQPO

5. Belly Dance Comes from Connecting with the People Around the Dancer

Belly Dance breaks the fourth wall. Belly dance started as a social dance form. It’s about connecting with. your family, with your friends. And so there is actual eye contact being created and met and made as opposed to a lot of ballet. The audience is there, but the dancers don’t see them. They’re voyeurs, right? So being able to break the fourth wall is really important for connection.

I personally feel that in our world of today, we suffer from disconnection, disconnection from each other. There’s a lot of othering going on, disconnection from ourselves.

Most kids now spend six hours a day on the screen and ten minutes of play outside. So, a lot of people are not connected to their bodies.

So, being able to break the fourth wall is really important.

6. Belly Dance is Beautiful

It’s very beautiful. I mean, look how stunning this costume is.

This is Amar Gamal here. And, I believe, humans with their five senses are able to really perceive the beauty of a sunrise, of a sunset. If you listen to Zach Bush, he talks a lot about how important it is for us to observe and just take in. That this is our superpower as humans.

https://youtu.be/8zCCpMz9JM0?si=oj4BErQ6-iTxLhXq

7. Belly Dance Brings out More of the Divine Feminine

I feel like there’s a lot of masculine energy in the world, and it’s a little out of balance. We need more feminine energy. And yes men belly dance as well, and anyone who identifies in between. However, it’s good to bring in more softness into the world instead of must make that deadline, must show productivity, blah, blah, blah, right? How can we soften and move with no effort?

8. Dance Improvisation is Efficient

If you hear a beautiful piece of music and you’re inspired to dance, you can. You don’t have to practice in the studio for hours for months before you get on stage. So that to me is amazing, and makes it more cost effective.

https://youtu.be/P34q3XIRasM?si=862G9ggSPLfaAeW9&t=43

9. Belly Dance is Entertaining

People hire dancers for their weddings, for their parties, right?

The Negative Sides of Belly Dance
1. It’s sexy. Is it Empowerment or is it Objectification?

I think we’re still dealing with some of these album covers and those ideas of Dancing For your Sultan. And when we’re going for grants, that’s an issue.

2. Belly Dancers Often Train Less than Ballet or Modern Dancers

Us dancers tend to spend less time training in belly dance compared to ballet or modern dancers.

And I just say that from observation that if I see contemporary dancers, they often will go three or four times a week and train without any expectation of performing. Whereas belly dancer tend not to have the same regularity, which means that when you’re trying to memorize the choreography, for example, it’s a different level.

Like in belly dance I’m considered faster when learning choreography. But in a modern dance class, I’m the slowest one in class. Not to say that remembering choreography is that important, because I think being able to express your soul with improvisation is really important also. But of course, if you’re dancing with other people, it’s helpful to know choreography.

3. Commercial Belly Dance is tied to MENAHT culture, so it can be more challenging for Asian and Black dancers to get booked.

And I specify Asian and Black because if you’re Latin, you can pass for Middle Eastern. If you’re white, Egypt was colonized by England. So there is still some of that in the water with preferring to book someone that’s considered upper class and will give you status, right?

So that is something that to consider.

4. Vocabulary and Emotional Range of Belly Dance Can be More Limited

So belly dance tends to sit inside pretty and sexy. Maybe you’re feeling some anguish because your loved one is far away, but that’s about it. There’s not a lot more to play with.

Maybe you’re dangerous, right? That could be one. You’re the vampire. So there are certain archetypes that get used.

And speaking as someone who was not born MENAHT, if I’m doing a folkloric version, I feel like I need to reference source material. I need to do my homework, I’m less free to lean into creativity, if that makes sense. So that’s what I mean by more limited.

Bringing Belly Dance to Wider Audiences

Okay. So, connecting with wider audiences.

1. Consider Collaborating with Partners with Established Audiences

When Bellydance Superstars toured with La La Palooza, we had 10, 000 people in the audience at every show. Museums often have thousands of people, schools, media and TV. When the Bellydance Superstars went on TV for the World Peace Concert in Bali, we had 10, 000 people in the audience, we had millions of people watching on TV.

I was flown to Trinidad to perform for Radio Masala 101 and that had 15, 000 people in the audience, so I didn’t have to generate the people.

As a producer putting on events we’re often thinking okay how do we bring our audience in and you only have the reach of your own personal circle.

But if you’re partnering with an institution with a much larger circle, then you just have to show up and be an artist.

Instead of wearing all the hats like marketing and blah blah blah.

2. Connect with Science 

Science is the current mainstream religion as opposed to the church in the past.

So for me I’m looking to expand my circle and meet more people who work in science museums because I hope my work will be accepted and shown in science museums.

So recently I’ve been going to a lot of science museum conferences. And they’re trusted institutions. And they also straddle education that’s entertaining, edutainment.

And for me right now, the climate clock is displaying that we have less than five years before climate catastrophe. For me, that’s the most important topic of our time.

And science museums every single day of every conference, they’re talking about climate change and how can we inform our public, how can we make it more empowering, less scary, and I want to be part of that.

I had a plant medicine journey and met Gaia and made up my mind that I was going to use my gifts to help her, so that’s what I’m personally up to right now.

3. Figure out Why You are Dancing

You can also ask yourself, why are you doing it? What’s the purpose? How is it contributing? For me, the Pure show about reimagining beauty was about exploding open this idea that beauty is very narrow. Ageism, booking older dancers dancers that are larger, dancers that have different colors, connection to self, community, and beyond.

I mentioned a little bit about how we’re suffering from disconnection. With dance and being able to connect with our workshops, with our shows, that’s really important.

4. Art is the priority

Restaurants versus stage shows… so I tend to prefer situations where the art is the reason why people are there.

I’ve danced at restaurants where they’re there primarily for the food, and the baklava is more important than my dancing, and that’s really hard for me.

I much prefer the audience to be there first for the art, right? And that’s part of raising it up for respect.

5. Choose a Subject Matter That Most People can Relate to

And this is something I learned from third row projects. I was studying immersive theater techniques with them pre pandemic and they’re modern dancers and they were having a lot of trouble getting people to their shows. And then one day they decided to just say, we’re putting together a haunted house show, and they didn’t even put modern dance in there.

And it was packed full of people because people just wanted to go to the haunted house. It didn’t matter if they’re into modern dance or not.

And so, I noticed that there’s a difference between belly dance hafla and how much it can reach versus Bella Gaia, which is about our planet, our earth, and thousands of people that would come for that, right?

6. Use Storytelling to Engage People

And then using storytelling to engage people, that is something that all of us are interested in, regardless of whether your audience understands the vocabulary or not.

7. Create your own Opportunities

Give yourself your own green light. Think out of the box using unlikely venues. Juban was a sushi restaurant.

I held shows in there for 10 years. It doesn’t have to be in Middle Eastern.

Throw shit on the wall and see what sticks. I’ve been doing that with my Nature Stories project. What does it look like with 12 people? What does it look like with six people? Let’s create a post apocalyptic fashion show. And let’s put it on.

And it doesn’t matter how many people in the audience. Just go for it.

And that’s it for me!

The next panelist is dancer and composer Zoe Jakes of the incredible band Beats Antique.

Zoe Jakes on How to Bring Belly Dance to a Bigger Audience Through Storytelling

Zoe Jakes: Thank you, Kaeshi. That was awesome. That was really nice to hear your perspective and your background.

how do we present this beautiful art form to a different audience? How do we jump into different communities? First off, understanding how we are dancing for dancers, and how much knowledge you have to have as a viewer to understand what we’re doing.

This is something that’s talked about in Indian dance. How cultivated the viewer is in viewing the art.

When you’re dancing for a pure dance community for people that are professional dancers, they’re going to see all the subtleties. They’re gonna see all the work. Their hook is subtle.

But when we are attempting to work with groups that are not our community…

How do we frame our art in a way that a person that doesn’t have years of cultivation?

How can we speak to them in a way that feels authentic and connected to our experience?

And that is something I’ve been thinking about a lot lately because my earlier history as a dancer, I was kind of thrown into all these crazy experiences. Belly Dance Superstars, Beast Antique, Yard Dog’s Road Show, and I was like, Ah! The Indigo! You know, it was all amazing.

https://youtu.be/LzdRFUKF8Nk?si=JufRHAIdQ7j4U0bk

But then a few years went by, and I started to get a lot more intentional. So there was a lot of luck being in the right place at the right time, but now, it’s different. I’m stepping into new spaces. I’m intentionally making decisions to bring a lot of my work to a completely different audience.

And so, I’m always left with: How?

You’ve all seen The Last Unicorn, right? You remember the scene when the wizard is telling the unicorn, like, I have to put a fake horn on you because the people that don’t know how to see your horn, they just think you’re a horse. So even though you are this magic, incredible thing without that magic to pretend like you have a horn.

They don’t know how amazing you are.

And that is really important to think about as a performer. All those subtle, little, magical things that you’ve been geeking out on for years…

The audience is like, I don’t get it. And it’s not because they don’t want to experience art. It’s because they don’t have the years of cultivating that understanding for what you’re doing and how beautiful it is.

I’m sure some of you are sports fans. I am not. I am not a sports fan. But sitting here watching a game of football, I’m just like, I don’t get it. And, you know, so I’m gonna say, well, it’s cause it’s boring. It’s like, no, cause I haven’t cultivated the many years of following the sport and the people and the personalities behind it, you know?

So it’s the same with our dance. And so something that I am very inspired by as an artist is finding ways to take what is considered the universal truth. And this is something that guy that wrote a thousand faces with his name, Joseph Campbell, he talks about this a lot and he talks about the universal truth.

Connect with a Universal Truth Through Vulnerability and Storytelling

If you can connect to somebody’s universal truth, then you have connected with them with your art

So, how do we do that? With other belly dancers, it’s very easy because our universal truth is dance and beauty and movement and motion. That goes without saying.

But you have a person in the audience who was dragged by their friend to come see your show, and how do you connect with them?

This person that’s never danced before, their girlfriend loves belly dancing. And they’re like, I just want her to be happy and I guess I’ll sit through the show. I want them to come up to me after the show and be like, I’ve never really, gotten it before, but you’re act like…I got it.

And it happens a lot. And it’s not because I do anything better than anyone else. It’s not that. It’s because started a band, Beats Antique, that toured for many years, and I danced for a lot of people that had never seen belly dance, or any dance before other than the Nutcracker on TV, and you know, that kind of thing.

And so I was literally on stage just experimenting on these people.

And there was always the belly dancers in the front row and they were like, yeah. So no matter what I did they were happy with. But the people in the back, I lost them quite a bit.

There were quite a few shows that I was like, that was not it. That was not it.

And then I was like, okay, what are the things that are working?

Connection. Literally Looking at People. Truly Connecting with Somebody.

And having that brief moment of really connecting with somebody on stage.

Because there’s just something about that that makes people feel like they’re really being pulled into your performance.

https://youtu.be/GLY5iNN7rrE?si=MAEZVUE1hfTPmSoD

The other one is…

Slow the F*ck Down

Seriously, it happened a few years ago. I’m not saying I’ve always been very successful with it, but truly slowing down and taking the time to allow the audience to feel.

You do a thing, and the person processes it and then the emotion starts to trickle down. And they feel it. But if you’re onto the next thing really fast, you’ve lost them.

It’s too much. And they shut down. So I’ve slowed down a lot as a storyteller. And I’ve recognized that when you are a storyteller, and really everything that you do in the world, whenever you are, trying to connect with people on any level, you are telling a story.

It can be a simple, tiny little story. It can be a long ass story, but it is a story.

The story can be a moment like saying goodbye and then it’s done. That’s the story. There, you’ve got a story.

So it’s really these stories that we play with that are so magical. And being able to commit to that in the moment that has really helped me.

And so how you tell a story: You give it space. 

And I saw myself for years. I was like, dance, dance, dance. Put the story on top. Dance, dance, dance. Check out my story. Check out my story. Check out my story. And people were like, I kind of got it. It was cool. You know, I like that thing you did with your hands and like the backdrop was really neat.

And I was like, this is not working.

This is not working.

I’m not getting down there.

And so I started to chip away some of the dancing and then just let the story breathe for a second. And I remember the Furies was the first piece I did that I only put dance in like, about 40%.

The story was there and the audience reaction was like, I could feel people were like wow.

And that’s the piece that Jamie DeWolf, he is very connected storyteller. Spoken word in the Bay area. He runs all these big shows. He’s amazing. And he’s big time. And he’s like, that act is incredible.

And he connected me with the KQED. This big radio station on the West Coast and they hired me and Pixie was there. We had my dancers and we performed that act and this was a spoken words festival and he wanted this piece in the show and that’s when I was like, okay.

And the audience loved it, and the audience was not dancers.

You know…

Because the story was supported by the dance.

And a lot of times we think dance gets supported by story, and it doesn’t work.

The story is supported by the dance. And that is the biggest piece that I have learned over the years.

Because in order to do that, the story has to really connect with something personal in you.

And that’s the new thing that’s happened for me in since I’ve had my kid actually.

I’ve allowed myself to get to a new level of vulnerability in telling stories that are a little bit uncomfortable, and doing it in really self compassionate ways that support me and support my audience.

And then when you create that environment, people really lean into that because it’s the universal truth. You see somebody that’s going through some kind of change, some portal, and this is universal. Everybody.

How many fucking rings of fire have we walked through in our lives, right?

Just the act of thinking about this ring of fire. You see the audience truly experiencing some level of this passageway. There’s some form of difficulty. It doesn’t have to be like, and then she walked to the store and she was scared. And she picked up the food and ate it, but it was bad. Like, it doesn’t have to be so literal.

Symbolism, Repetition, Motif and Foreshadowing

Because of symbolism. And repetition. We have all these ridiculously amazing tools. Motif, right? And foreshadowing and all this magical stuff. And it’s less of saying to someone, this is my story and more…

Creating an energy and letting the story push the energy forward.

And then at the very end of it, everyone in the room has this moment of feeling super connected because we all witnessed and experienced something that we can all relate to.

That’s what I think is really important as performers.

When thinking about how to bring your dance to a new audience, you have to think about the fact that it’s the story.

Everything is a story. Any product that’s ever been sold, and if it’s sold like crazy, there’s a story. Any spoken art, word artists, it’s all about story. Any dancer, any painter. And so really thinking about your personal universal truths in your stories, and how you can support that with dance versus trying to constantly have this dance and then plop a story on the top.

It doesn’t sync. People always be thinking like, oh, it was nice. The colors matched and it was really cool and I like the transition, but you’re never going to get the like, oh my God, that moment when that thing happened. I was like, that’s what I want.

When you go see a movie and you’re fixated and you’re in that flow state and you’re like…uh!!! That’s the feeling I want people to feel.

That is magic…

Dalia Carella and Zoe Say Stay in Character

And Dahlia Carella adds: And what I notice is in, I hate to say it, but more Middle Eastern dance or fusion dance or whatever, the dancers come out with these great costumes and they start really strong with the concept and when you watch it all the way through, the whole character dies down.

And the Middle Eastern dancer or the fusion dancer, they’re not the character.

I’m like, where did the character go?

And that’s a really big thing with me, is following through. And that’s exactly what you’re saying, is have the story and bring it all the way through. Follow through, yeah. Which requires and necessitates commitment.

And training. Training is part of the commitment. Commitment every day. Yes, yes. To create that training. But then on stage, or even building the story. You’re committing to your character. Yes. Committing to that. So cool.

Back to Zoe Jakes on Immersive and Innovative Performances

Yeah, yeah. It’s cool stuff.

This is House of Tarot we just did last week. This is the beginning of the show.

This is me at the immersive that I threw with Beats Antique. Pixie was there. You can see the living tree that’s got a bunch of lanterns on there.

This is me doing my mask dance. We filled a 20 room venue with like two truckloads of crazy shit.

It was insane. This is me performing at that immersive. It was in San Francisco at The Mint. It was mind blowing. And I think that we found some people that might help pick it up and pay for it. It was cool. This is one of my characters in the immersive. She was the oracle that you found in a dark room.

But you had to knock on a door and they would let you in one at a time.

This was another immersive. All the set design was us. This is all wooden pieces that we’ve been painting over the years.

And this is me with my daughter in tech rehearsal. My daughter is almost everywhere with me all the time. I want her to experience this. I want this to be her life always.

Dalia Carella on Fusing Dances in New York City Since the 1970s

I am so pleased to be in the middle of these brilliant artists because I have seen them grow from very young dancers to where they are right now.  And we would be backstage, and I was the oldest, of course. But we would be backstage and there was a whole bunch of whiskey and everything backstage. And all the fusion dancers were drinking whiskey. And I was like, what? And they’re like, come on Dalia. You have it. And I’m like, Oh, you mean before you dance?

And Kaeshi, she’s like my little baby in a way, because she was in my first Fusion number ever. 2001? After 9/11. I did it right after 9-11. After the Fall, it was called. And it was about 9/11. And it was a storytelling about what was going on with all of us New Yorkers. Because it happened right in New York City. We all got PTSD. We were really like flipped cause our whole city turned around.

And so I did a piece about that, and she was one of the dancers in that.

So talking about “Fusion = Confusion”. You really have to know what you’re fusing because you can really confuse an audience.

And once you’re there and you’re performing, you have one shot at being on stage. Or maybe you have a three day run, four day run, or whatever. But you’re telling a story, and you have to know that story really well. As Zoe was saying, in order to portray the emotion and get the audience to understand what you’re trying to say as well, and to teach and educate.

That being said, I started dancing in 1972. So I’ve been around a little while. And this is my baby picture.

I believe that was taken in like 1974. That’s how we were back then. You know, we were very decorative with our headdress and everything. I was really into old movies, and I wanted to get into that whole look. And the photographer was into movies from the twenties and the thirties. And so he took this shot of me.

So anyways, that was when it was starting, like in 1972. I studied Oriental Dance and I studied the Serena Wilson method.

Actually, because I was in Niagara Falls, New York, and when people say Why did you get into Middle Eastern dance or ballet dance or whatever you want to call it?

And, you know, everybody would look at me and they wanted me to say this beautiful story about why I was drawn to this priestess dance. And I said “It was a bet. I was broke.”

I was living on my own at that time. And I needed money. And so, a few friends of mine said, I’ll give you 30 bucks if you go take that belly dance class. And I said, okay, you’re wrong. So I went into the YWCA. I took the class and I said, Oh my God, this is heaven. I found my calling, you know, and that’s why I get into it.

I didn’t get into it for any spiritual reasons. But then it became very spiritual, you know, because then I fell in love and I studied as a dancer.

I first studied Middle Eastern dance and then I studied flamenco and then I studied Indian dance. And I was fusing at that time. I would say 1976. That’s when I first started fusing. And at that time in New York City, if you’re an Oriental or Middle Eastern dancer, you do that. You know, you don’t mix. You don’t mix any other art form except Oriental dance. Like, God help you.

So, when I started fusing, a lot of dancers didn’t like me and they were talking about me. I have to be honest they were saying, what is she doing? Why is she doing this to our art form?

But I was really studying the dances that I was fusing. I was taking flamenco class. I was taking Kathak dance. I was taking Afro Brazilian. I was taking every kind of global fusion dance you could take.

When I moved to New York, I was in class every single day. I was in class every single day. 

And sometimes I would take two classes. Sometimes I’d get out of Samba, I’d jump into African. I was always taking class. And I was always practicing, and I was always studying. So, for me, I stood behind the fusion.

I knew what I was doing. I wasn’t fusing just to have a good time and to wear a costume.

I was fusing because I was committed. I knew what movements went with these cultures. I knew what they were eating. I knew what kind of music.

I was very serious as a student and I did it the right way. And when you do fusion, you have to do it the right way.

You can’t just put on a fancy costume and go out on stage and say, Oh, I’m doing some kind of dance.

And I just saw this the other day at a show where I saw these Egyptian dancers putting on a costume with a halo on, like a crown, and they were using Arabic music. And I’m like, okay, because I know Egyptian dance, I’m five decades of dance, I know what that is, but why are you putting a halo on and wearing an oriental dance costume and saying, you’re fusing? They’re trying to fuse, but I’m confused.

They could have used modern Egyptian music if they wanted to use the crowns fine. You know, that’s great. But then why are you wearing an Egyptian costume? Mix it up so that now I know it’s fusion. Otherwise I’m thinking you’re doing Egyptian dance with a halo on your head. That doesn’t make any sense whatsoever, and I’m confused.

So do you understand what I’m saying about fusion equals confusion? Because, it’s something for all of you to think about.

Make sure your costume goes with the story and with the movement. So your audience doesn’t get confused. And take them on your fusion journey.

Which is really important. After studying a lot of these dance forms I created my own dance forms. I created two dance forms. I created Flamenco Araby, which I mixed flamenco dance in with Middle Eastern dance, and I did it in 1976. I started in it. And then I created, uh, Dunyavi Roma dance, and that was a blend of flamenco, Indian, Turkish Roman.

https://youtu.be/DI_ecXZOmtU?t=56

So the first one is my form that I traveled all over the world to teach is the Dunyavi Roma dance. And that was the mix of the flamenco and the Turkish Indian. And I danced with bells on my ankles.

https://youtu.be/jl0ReEYVe7g?t=28

And so I brought in the Kathak. I don’t do it now because I’m going on 70. So my legs and everything are saying, No Dalia, no bells right now. Protect your knees, Dalia, you know. So I don’t wear the bells anymore, but I wore them for many years.

So that’s the Dunyavi. And that’s my Flamenco Araby. And you notice the different feeling of that from, like this is very passionate. This was taken in Milan. I did a piece. And it was a very serious piece about losing the one that you love and heartbreak. And you can tell I’m really doing that.

Now, I developed Dalia Carella Dance Collective with Kaeshi it was 2001. And we did a big show at the Gibney Dance. Now that’s bringing in How to Move the Needle Forward. This theater is still a major dance theater in New York City for modern and contemporary dance.

I brought this in, which blended all the forms I was studying and put it into a theatrical dance in front of contemporary dancers, modern dancers, theater goers, and also people who really love dance from all genres of dance and people who wanted to follow the dance.

‌This was a blend of contemporary. It was a fun dance. It was from the movie, The Stafford Wives. Did anyone see that? Well, this was called Stafford Jibes. And what they were, were they were the robots. They were Stafford Wives. And they started really demure. And then they were short circuiting. And then that’s what happened there.

This was a really great dance. It was called La Isla Perdida. And it was a mix of Latin dance and modern dance and Middle Eastern dance.

And the dancers had to work really hard for this because I had them trained for five months in order to get this dance ready. And we had dance coaches as well.

This was the start of more immersive dance.

This was in 2009 when no one was doing immersive dances. This was called Nuit. And this was all about the cabarets from the twenties and the thirties. So I took that and it was less Middle Eastern dance. It was more my vision and the study that I did of the cabarets back in Berlin in Germany in Paris. I took my vision and brought it to New York City with that

This is my katak training and samuraisi training. I choreographed it on the girls. This is a beautiful dance. It’s called Shakti and if you know Pete List He created the music for this dance. And this was again at Gibney Dance and the girls worked about six months on this dance.

They trained for six months with me. And this was bringing theater and dance in acting because I had the privilege of meeting a development manager from Martha Graham. I went to her and I wanted her to help me bring, move the needle up in Middle Eastern dance and everything else.

And I wanted to go to a Broadway theater to show my work and she loved the work so much that I got the show about the life of Ruth St. Denis. So this is called In Search of a Goddess

QUESTIONS From Fellow Dancers
Q1: How do we feel in general about this trend that pops up on TikTok where there’s people who are, engaging in belly dance? But it’s more so a young girl wearing a bra and hip scarf. She’s belly dancing, but not quite. And then they’re presenting it as belly dance to people, but it’s not really authentic.

Zoe Jakes answers this one:

It’s a really tough one for me because I feel like, would I have done that in my early 20s? I hope not.

it’s really tough because you reach a wide audience, you also have a responsibility. As we all know, I’m preaching to the choir that we are making sure that the conversation is directed back at MENAHT culture. That people are understanding where this is coming from. That we are also the bridge to bring the information.

So, in that sense, yes, that is frustrating. Right? I find that frustrating, I guess that’s the biggest thing I have to say about that is that’s a tough one.

Q2: So, in general, when somebody asks any of you what type of dance you do, and you say fusion belly dance, right? And they say, what is that? What’s your answer?

Dalia Carella answers this one:

You know, I get that a lot too because, again, I’m in more genres. So I would say I’m a Global Fusion Artist. And I take dances from blah, blah, blah, blah, and I fuse them and I really concentrate on bringing integrity with every dance that I do. And I really love that. Fusing these cultural art forms together.

That’s what I would say. And I think dla, you’ve used that phrase for quite some time, haven’t you? Global fusion dance. Yes. And that’s what they do in the mainstream of dance too. They’ll say Global Fusion Dance as well, when you’re going for grants and things like that.

And Zoe Jakes adds:

Just a, a short comment. We have created problematic elements behind the words “fusion belly dance”. There’s so much to unpack. And then the problem we have is that it’s really the only way that you can get people to understand that you’re teaching those classes.

So, you’ve got that. But then you’re like, this name needs to change. It’s a problem that I, as a white fusion dancer, it’s my responsibility to figure it out. So I don’t really have an answer.

Just know that it’s something I think about a lot. We all do.

Q3: I find that a lot of art forms, which are kind of folk art forms, like flamenco, like belly dance, don’t get the same respect. This having to do with what you mentioned about TikTok. They put a hip scarf on. Now they’re belly dancers. It just makes me angry, because it shows no respect to the culture. It shows no respect to the dancers, and to the amount of training and hard work and knowledge that’s acquired over the years. How can you change that narrative? How would we turn ourselves in terms of resources to learn about this?

Are there any vital resources that you guys have found? Besides taking classes and being here for these kinds of talks. Like, things that we can do on our own.

Keishi Chai answers this one:

I’m marinating in your question. The first thing that popped into my mind is travel. I know not everyone has the privilege to travel. But when you’re in a country and you’re seeing how people are communicating, that is so valuable. And you get to experience a completely different reality than maybe what your fantasy is before you step off that plane, right?

Have you heard of that saying The more you know, the more you realize you don’t know?

And so I remember taking my first belly dance class thinking like, I know how to shimmy. I got this. It’s like, it’s so easy, but it wasn’t. Then I realized, wow, that’s really hard to isolate that. I recognized my own journey that I went from feeling like I knew a lot to feeling like I knew very little, in fact.

Dalia Carella adds:

When you’re thinking of doing a dance, the first thing I do is, I get an idea. And if I hear the piece of music, and then I develop my story, my character, I will research like crazy on Google, or I’ll go to the library, or I’ll go to the dance library. I’m, totally understanding what I’m doing, so that I have the integrity to put it on a stage, or in a venue.

Study, research, ask questions, really educate yourself so you bring your dance integrity. That’s what we’re all talking about. Because if we don’t keep the integrity, we’re going to get the dancers with the little hip scarves and saying they’re Cleopatra and they’re going to be wearing a top hat. Yeah. If you’re doing all that stuff and not, like, understanding.

Zoe Jakes adds:

So one thing that’s makes it extremely easy is social media.  I have so many people that I follow, like Sara Al Hadithi, there’s so many amazing Middle Eastern dancers and so many different cultures. And I follow them and I watch them and I listen to what they’re saying and I follow their resources. That’s the thing you can do now.

And then you actually pay attention to who they’re following and what music they study. So don’t take it from me, take it from them.

Kaeshi Chai adds:

Have joy when you’re dancing. Remember the joy. I am one of those dancers that got pushed out too early, meaning that I got booked for professional gigs by Serena Wilson. And this is her strategy. She started a lot of professional dancers journeys here in New York City, and she would book dancers who were new. But they were so joyful!

I mean, we didn’t know that we sucked, but we were charming and delightful and people enjoyed watching.

Zoe adds: That was me at the red fair for the first four years, right? All right.

Kaeshi Chai:

My husband Brad he and I would talk about this. He would prefer to watch a joyful beginner than a very serious dancer who is technically more proficient, but there’s no joy.

And playfulness. Specifically, the playfulness is the thing that makes me watch somebody.

Alicia Free adds:

I just want to say the reason why these performers have reached such a wide audience is because they’ve had joy that has made them train like crazy. Think about the hours they’ve all put in.

Zoe adds: ADHD!

Alicia Free: There’s the energy behind it, right? You’re not just training.

I would really like to thank you from the bottom of my heart for how many hours and how much thought and how many dreams you’ve had that you’ve made come true. That’s opened it up for all of us to dance more too, so thank you.

Thank you to the dancers who offered their questions and to Kaeshi Chai for asking me to turn this amazing panel discussion into a podcast so that it can be enjoyed by our whole dance community.