Show Notes

In this episode of Career Downloads, host Manuel Martinez sits down with Karen Ahern, Professor and Networking Program Director at the College of Southern Nevada, who shares her inspiring journey through the technology industry. From her unexpected start as a computer lab assistant to becoming a Senior Director of Technology Services, and ultimately finding her calling in education, Karen’s story demonstrates how being open to opportunities can lead to a fulfilling career in technology.

Guest: Karen Ahern Current Role: Professor, Computing and Information Technology Department, College of Southern Nevada Focus Areas: Networking, Cloud Systems Administration, Infrastructure, and Systems Administration

Episode Highlights:

• 
  
• How a chance conversation led Karen into technology without any prior tech background
  
• The importance of being willing to take on tasks others avoid
  
• Transitioning from technical roles to leadership positions
  
• Managing imposter syndrome while advancing in career
  
• The value of emotional intelligence in technology careers
  
• Why lateral career moves can lead to unexpected growth
  
• Securing and managing National Science Foundation grants
  
• The transition from corporate IT to education
  

Key Insights:

• 
  
• Finding and leveraging mentorship opportunities
  
• Building confidence through continuous learning
  
• Balancing technical expertise with people skills
  
• Managing teams and expectations in IT leadership
  
• Creating opportunities through networking
  
• The importance of being uncomfortable for growth
  

Career Advice Highlights:

1. 
   
2. Be open to tasks others avoid – it can lead to specialization
   
3. Don’t let imposter syndrome hold you back from opportunities
   
4. Sometimes a pay cut for the right opportunity can lead to greater rewards
   
5. Network consistently, even when comfortable in your current role
   
6. Consider lateral moves for skill development
   
7. Be patient with yourself and others while learning
   

Resources Mentioned:

• 
  
• CompTIA A+ Certification
  
• Management Information Systems degree programs
  
• Society of Information Managers
  
• National Science Foundation grants
  

Connect with Karen: https://www.linkedin.com/in/karen-ahern-88805523/

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#CareerDownloads #TechCareers #WomenInTech #TechnologyLeadership #CareerDevelopment #ITEducation #TechMentorship #CloudComputing #HigherEducation #CareerAdvice

Transcription

Manuel: Welcome everybody, my name is Manuel Martinez and this is another episode of Career Downloads where basically each episode I hit the refresh button and bring on a different guest to learn more about their experience, their background and really how they manage their career over time with the goal to really help you understand and pick up different techniques that you can use to be able to manage your own career. So for today’s episode I have with me Karen Ahern. So Karen we have worked together in the past and even currently so she used to be one of my directors when I worked for higher education and then eventually she moved into a teaching role where she became a program director and then kind of brought me on to be a part-time faculty instructor. So with that let’s welcome Karen.

Karen: Thanks for having me.

Manuel: No thanks, thanks for coming on and when I was kind of looking at your background so I know that you’ve spent basically your entire career within higher education but within that you’ve done a number of different positions, you’ve kind of moved around a little bit and one of the things that was really interesting to me was kind of how you came and again you’ll be able to help fill in the gap for me is when you got out of college you always kind of went into a role almost right away.

Karen: Right.

Manuel: So then just real quick can you just tell me what your current position is and I know I said you know program director but if you can tell me exactly what the position is and kind of what are your like overall responsibilities?

Karen: Sure so right now I’m a professor in the Computing and Information Technology department at College of Southern Nevada so I’m also the Networking Program Director so I oversee the program direction for our Cisco networking degree and now our Cloud Systems Administration degree so and people’s entryway into IT careers you know we have Cyber Security, Software Development but I kind of focus over the Infrastructure and Sys Admin, Desktop, User Support type roles right now so I do that and you know provide I run our advisory committee I pull together people like yourself professionals from the industry and to provide input and host events and things like that to connect students to jobs to good paying IT jobs.

Manuel: That’s awesome so now that we kind of know where you’re at and what you’re doing. You mind going back and just kind of give us a little bit of background it doesn’t have to be extensive but just kind of where you grew up and eventually what got you interested in technology. Whether you know I touched on it kind of already gave people sneak peek that you did go to college so just kind of what drove you towards that route.

Karen: Yeah so it was kind of an accident because I didn’t grow up playing with computers or tinkering around like a lot of women. You know we I went to dance class I played soccer I did but I was pretty open-minded and I really had no idea what I wanted to do so if you’re practical you think well I’ll go get a Business degree and then figure it out from there so I ended up I was working at Bank of America in their call center I went to UNLV and CSN and it just happened when I was 19 years old my dad had a colleague whose wife worked actually she worked at CSN as a Software Asset Manager and she was just happened to ask me one day what are you gonna what are you gonna do with your life and I’m like I don’t know I’m just gonna get a business degree so she she basically took it upon herself to say no. Do you do you like computers? I’m like well okay. She goes okay well you’re gonna major in she goes there’s a Management Information Systems major that you can do at UNLV here’s the pathway and by the way we need part-time computer lab assistant so you can come work at the college and I was at attending CSN at the time. So she almost kind of set me up and so I had no better idea and I always felt like you should be flexible when you’re not sure of your direction. So that’s how I ended up kind of on the pathway I worked in the computer lab and started you know took that business and IT. I knew I didn’t want to I probably didn’t want to be a Computer Science major at the time so that seemed like a happy medium in the business school. So I ended up going that direction.

Manuel: Nice and that’s good to it’s something that a lot of people don’t talk about is trying to find a mentor and it looks like you found one almost by accident.

Karen: Yeah, yeah for my dad I was really fortunate I wouldn’t even be here. I wouldn’t have made it. I wouldn’t have thought of IT. I would never even thought of it if she hadn’t mentioned it so.

Manuel: And then so she kind of set you on that path and as you started to kind of learn more about working in the computer lab getting at least. I get is it’s some experience or at least exposure let’s call it exposure. And during that exposure, did you start to gain more of an interest in it and say okay hey I do like technology or this is something I can see a career in or was it just like well I’ll I’ll try it and see what happens.

Karen: Yeah at first it was kind of a I didn’t really know I because I didn’t know much about the field at all so I just kind of you know worked in the lab and ended up you know working around people that were fixing the computers imaging the machines and PCs and I thought well that’s kind of interesting but I was still very part-time student I was working you know at a at Albertson’s grocery store I I was still kind of very part-time and I was into Irish dancing at the time so I was doing that as well but then what happened is my when I turned 21 my father passed away so suddenly I had to pay help my mom pay the mortgage so that kind of you know you all of a sudden you got to work full time so I started talking to the computer lab manager there I said hey can I get some more hours and he said sure and by the way I started helping them out with you know rolling PCs around plug and crossover cables and imaging PCs and some of that old-school stuff doing you know running around with floppy disks doing BIOS updates you know real old-school stuff and then after a while I didn’t really have a lot of experience but after a little while they said well you don’t have a lot of experience yet but we have this Administrative Assistant job open but it’s full-time so I said oh great I need a full-time job so they they actually brought me as an Admin Assistant so I had to do contracts and things like that because I didn’t have enough experience yet to be a Tech, a Systems Specialist at the time so I ended up kind of as an Administrative Assistant they started giving me some more tasks so I was part-time Administrative Assistant part-time learning how to be a PC Tech at the time.

Manuel: Well and you mentioned you’re going to school for Business degree so I mean it while it’s not fully business but being that Administrative Assistant looking at contracts things of that nature you’re getting exposure now towards the business side as well right and not just on the technical side so you still obviously went to school and continued that.

Karen: Yeah.

Manuel: Did you? I apologize I don’t remember here you had your MIS degree or is it a business degree?

Karen: Um it’s it’s it’s a it’s a Business Degree but Management Information Systems as the emphasis so it’s uh the degree path generally is um to train you to be a CIO I think that’s the idea so um you do get some technical classes in there but you get a lot of business classes as well you’ll get like database classes programming not anywhere to the degree of engineering at all but you do get some you get exposure to both project management things like that so I didn’t have it yet it actually took me quite a long time because I was working full-time and paying for school to complete it um so and I also ended up taking extra classes that didn’t transfer to my degree like uh that class I teach now at CSN the CompTIA A+ IT Essentials class I ended up needing to go take that because I needed more background on how to tear the PC apart and fix it and things like that so yeah.

Manuel: So just kind of more courses to try and develop skills as opposed to trying.

Karen: Yeah.

Manuel: Point you towards it like a completion of a degree.

Karen: Yeah so kind of it made the degree take longer but then I got more practical skills because I was taking the side courses which were at the college which was obviously helpful so I’m pretty much working in the IT department as their Administrative Assistant um and they’re training me kind of simultaneously to I’m doing help desk calls and it was it was a while back so we didn’t have the full help desk that you have with ServiceNOW there was not a big help desk at that time so that was kind of me doing that and doing tech work and doing contracts and it did give me some exposure up the chain of command at the college which was nice as an Admin Assistant because you see a lot even though you don’t have any power as an Administrative Assistant but you do get copied on a lot of interesting emails so yeah that was kind of interesting on how the business functions.

Manuel: Yeah so then now as you’re obviously working you’re going to school part time at what kind of transpired from there so are you? Did you decide to continue just staying at CSN as a part-time lab and just kind of work that Administrative Assistant job? Or did it become something like waiting until you finished your degree before you try to move up or how did that?

Karen: No actually it worked out good I’m because I was kind of willing to take on any tasks because I knew I didn’t have any experience uh at that time Macs were not popular and nobody wanted to fix them and we had a whole graphics department Photoshop and we had a lot of classrooms with Macs and no one wanted to fix them so I said hey I’ll do that and so I ended up becoming the Mac tech for the college and we had multiple campuses so I it was fun because you have you know all the artistic graphics art people and we they would have you know the Macs they weren’t quite that cool yet but they were those gum drop Macs and some of that stuff Apple G4s G5s stuff like that for people that have been around so I ended up getting on the basically the Apple Macintosh certifications for laptops and desktops so after I did that I still was in school I hadn’t finished but because I kind of took that initiative on and started working on the Macs after a while they decided as the Administrative Assistant they decided hey you know she’s taking on kind of a critical role so then they a position for a actual IT position a System Specialist at the time came up and so then I was able to apply for that and I had enough experience as working as an Administrative Assistant but you know 70% of the time doing IT work to qualify for it so it took about it only took about a year so really wasn’t that long after I had that full time foot in the door position as the Admin Assistant for the IT department for it to transition so I guess I was lucky that I had a good mentor as well I had another mentor after that who was interested in making he knew that I had you know some aptitude and interest and the more I worked with the systems the more I was like hey I could do this I can fix computers I never thought I could do that before but you know when you fix something it gives you a little rush like ah I’m kind of smart so I can do this so that kind of gave me a motivation to keep to keep going and say okay I think I want to stick around in IT.

Manuel: And initially you probably didn’t look at it as hey I’m trying to differentiate myself you’re just like well nobody else wants to do it I’m just going to pick it up.

Karen: Yeah.

Manuel: And that.

Karen: I want to be helpful I want to be useful and I want you know I want to get skills wherever I can so kind of like what I tell my students now I say you know you may say I want to be a I want to be in Cybersecurity and I want to be a Pen Tester but you’re probably not going to be a Pen Tester right out the bat you know you’re going to need to know how to build a network and troubleshoot and do you’re probably going to do user support maybe so just be flexible and you’ll be surprised what you end up learning so yeah they were they were very eager to teach me because I was eager to learn and I didn’t complain about you know grunt work tasks that they gave me I didn’t care crawl around under desks and you know run cables and things like that I didn’t really mind so you know I just wanted to learn right.

Manuel: And just and they’re starting to see probably your your drive to to kind of do more you’re also you know you’re not complaining you’re seeing they’re seeing your worth ethic you know even though it started off as a part-time job but the more you’re doing the more that they see that you’re a good worker you’re not a complainer you have a good attitude.

Karen: Yeah flexible yeah.

Manuel: Yeah flexible and then they’re starting to see that um this is somebody I want to I want to be around or I would enjoy working with right.

Karen: Right.

Manuel: Nice and so now you’ve become this PC Technician you know you differentiate yourself as a sorry as a Mac Technician.

Karen: Yeah specializing in Macs.

Manuel: Specializing in Macs and how long did you do that for and you know at what point you know and I’m sure you’ll get to it did you finish your degree and then kind of what was the next step moving on from a Mac Technician to kind of your next role?

Karen: Yeah so um I was well what later became uh they became User Services user support so um I worked on Macs I ended up working on PCs as well and some different projects after I did that for actually about I don’t know it was a good four or five years kind of in that role and eventually when a new company came in to outsource our IT department at the college they reorganized the department so we had some new opportunities and at the time I was still kind of in the same role um I was doing some project management as well while also you know working as a Tech and uh and that at that time um I had a manager that was was really cool it was a great guy came from the east coast and um he uh a position at User Services Manager position came up and I didn’t think I was as qualified because I’d spent a lot of time working on Macs I did a lot of the PC work I did PC work too but not nearly as much and kind of had a little I don’t know that imposter syndrome that happens quite a bit I think in IT and maybe because I’m you know I was one of the few women there was only like at that time I think there was only maybe one or two women and you know between all of the IT departments there was a or all the entire IT organization at that time so you know you feel a little you know insecure but um because there’s guys around me that know a lot more so but he basically said you should apply for the manager position and and that’s all it took I’m like well you think I should he goes yes you should you’d be great for it so I wouldn’t have applied for it had he not made that suggestion so it’s really important to have you know if you’re a manager or a director or a mentor just telling your staff like that hey I think you should apply I mean that made all the difference for me and that kind of set me on a better path there I would say so I ended up applying for the job getting it even though one of the apparently there was another guy that was a shoe in for it supposedly but the other people on the committee including my former manager argued that I’d be a better fit and fortunately my the director at the time was would listen and so they chose me and I ended up being the User Services Manager which was um more fun because I you know I managed a team for a campus and got to do more projects and start you know selecting the technology buying the PCs and you know getting into uh you know working with stuff like uh you know tracking technology and different projects and you know things like that so that was another step up managing our new service desk that we had um so that was a lot of fun um and then from there I just I was started promoting pretty much so once I hit that manager position then next was director so that’s that was my next step after that.

Manuel: And I want to kind of pull back a little bit so you you mentioned something important like that that um that manager at the time told you not only to apply but did he provide any additional feedback as to why he thought you would be good or was it just like hey you should apply and that was it?

Karen: Yeah um you know he didn’t really but I think I just I think it was all I needed just to you know and it would have been helpful probably to get a little bit more but I think a lot of it had to do with soft skills you know and um leadership capabilities so I think he thought that I could you know he could be able to take charge of a task like hey if I need you to go out into the lab and you know swap out all of the old mechanical drives and put in new SSDs he knew he could just give me that task and I could organize it and run it and even grab a you know another lab assistant or another tech and do that so I think from working with him he saw that I could do that but a lot of it was he thought um the feedback that he had given me I thought it was more it was like personality like soft skills and being a team player um was kind of the feedback that he gave me they thought I would make a good fit for managing a team at the time.

Manuel: No that’s that’s great and you’re not the first person that said that is just that they’ve had somebody else um basically advocate or at least give that feedback and say hey have you ever considered this or have you tried looking at this and a lot of times we don’t realize the impact that that can do for somebody else like you might just somebody else could have probably seen that he could have seen that you would have been great for and just assumed oh she’s good she knows she’s gonna apply instead of you know telling you after the fact why didn’t you apply.

Karen: Yeah yeah yeah that was really important because I I thought maybe I’d like to do it but I just figured there’s all these three other guys who are applying or so now they’re smarter than me they’re better than me so why would I you know so yeah a little bit of an imposter syndrome a little bit of insecurity I was kind of young too you know so you don’t have a lot of experience yet still in like I think I was in my mid 20s so you just and I hadn’t finished my degree yet I took a long time to get through my degree so I got a few IT certifications along the way but because I was already in the organization they didn’t have hard requirements for having a degree yet but they knew I was on the path and I’d finish it so I ended up getting my degree I think I was already a director by the time I actually finished my bachelor’s degree.

Manuel: Okay so then that that transition from manager to director right so how long were you a manager and what what do you think were the big differences in kind of moving from that level role to the next one right so I know that a lot of times that’s a big difference to go from you know like an individual contributor to then going and being a manager like it’s a different skill set there it is a more people that the technical acumen is it’s good to at least have an understanding and know like you don’t have to be the expert on everything you know that’s why you have the individual contributors but now as you’re moving up to the director level it’s still they’re still soft skills but there’s also a I mean it’s a different level of soft skills and additional um trying to think of what the word is but there’s different requirements right like the job is different so because now you’re not managing a direct team you’re managing a team that’s managing.

Karen: A team.

Manuel: Another team.

Karen: Yeah so um I had two different director positions there was a pretty big difference I had the User Services Director which was managing a bunch of director still User Services and that role I was more of just the role of managing you know Windows upgrades on campus what are we going to do that you know and buying you know what’s the refresh cycle with the pc so it becomes more of a project manager kind of role and then also yeah mentoring people and hiring people and bringing them in and um I didn’t I was still kind of young so I didn’t quite get that transition because sometimes you know you need a mentor but then you’re supposed to be a mentor and especially when you’re a director you get that D title you know it’s like okay now people really expect you to be you know even more professional too so dress more you know professionally even then a manager a manager still crawling around under you know running cables around in pc you know hauling PCs and printers and things like that but the director is you know you’re that was more of a you know obviously considered like more of an executive type so then you’re interacting with other higher level people at the college and and that’s where that um I think those soft skills are even more important and then organizational skills so can you you know so that’s where like the project management skills you learn play a big role can you manage projects and deadlines and keep people motivated um you know don’t micromanage them but keep people on task and keep people happy you manage expectations right from you know that at this point it was the college versus you know they want a project done that all these different departments have competing needs for projects and technology and you kind of have to figure that out so like you said you don’t really have to I’m not working on technology anymore which is you know was kind of a bummer because that’s fun to play with technology and learn new things and now you’re managing people and projects and relationships and that and and that’s you know that was that was really a critical skill so I think that kind of played to my strength so that’s kind of why I ended up it almost was like a natural progression going that direction.

Manuel: And and those now as your it sounds like you just kind of almost were I don’t want to say thrown into it but.

Karen: Yeah.

Manuel: You didn’t you didn’t have that mentorship right to kind of say hey let’s go through because I’m assuming especially at the director level now you’re maybe you don’t have a final say but you’re more involved now in like budgets and project management you mentioned all these things nowadays I mean basically any skill or anything that’s up there I mean you can go do a quick YouTube search and say okay hey project management skills how to do budgets like there’s a vast amount of ways to pick up and understand or learn that knowledge at the time that you’re going through this are you really just on the job learning on your own and trying to figure it out is it a lot of trial error is it you know are you reading books is going to college helping or are you also you know reaching out to other people like are you you know you mentioned the imposter syndrome are you starting to establish at least some sort of confidence or understanding that I have I might have to rely on other people as opposed to just doing it all myself.

Karen: Oh absolutely yeah well even from the first director position that I had I had two I direct User Services Director and then Senior Director of Technology Services which was a pretty big jump there I would say that was more of a larger director jump for me than going from User Services manager to director but because now I have Infrastructure team and Software Developers a lot of people under me and a lot of technology I’m I don’t really know about but so yeah I got really good at asking I think I’ve always been pretty good about asking for help you know so a lot of people don’t want to do that and that’s really I think a weakness if you’re not willing to say hey I don’t know this and ask a lot you’ll be in trouble especially at I think those higher levels you have to listen to the people that are experts in your team and then you have to make good decisions you have to listen to the people that are experts on your team and then you have to figure out what in in my case the CIO wants too because the CIO will want certain things or have certain strategic directions that they’re working out with the college and so you have to kind of manage both you know so I had I think some of the business school classes were helpful I think the project management class was helpful some of the organizational management classes were helpful most of it was on the job you know I’d go to my boss and ask because he was very good about he knew that you know this is like my first director role so I’d need some advice and I would say I at the time the company we were worked for the college but we were outsourced by a third party company and they actually had some leadership training and things like that so that I would make sure I took advantage of those training opportunities because they were really helpful and then I was able to go talk to a senior director that was the equivalent at another school another institution so that was really nice you know because I was at CSN but that director might be from another school somewhere across the country and we could share stories so yeah I kind of I’d say at that time it was a little bit with business school but mostly my boss and then some of those training opportunities so having a good boss really helped and just opening my mouth a lot and asking for help and and then I kind of you get your stride faster when you ask for help and there’s trial and error of course but if I try if I you know I try to read a person if I’m you know making them angry or they look I try to read and ask okay well how do you feel about this task you know or how do you feel about this project or yeah I think as a instead of just directing to people hey take care of this project allowing them to give me feedback made my job easier because you have a lot of smart brains that are reporting up to you so you need to utilize those I can’t think of every angle so a lot of that asking helped be as being a director too to get things done that I couldn’t get done because I don’t have the expertise to do everything that needs to get done essentially on these projects.

Manuel: And then that is a big part of it right is being able to communicate with people and understand because that’s not something that I don’t think I would have thought to ask the question how do you feel about this as mine would have been more like why should we do this or why shouldn’t we instead of asking that person like how do you feel about this they’re still going to give you that same information but.

Karen: Yeah.

Manuel: Now you’re starting to and this is something that I didn’t learn until later on in life is when you start to ask people how they feel like there’s there’s a reason that they do or don’t want to do something right like how do you feel about doing this well I don’t I don’t want to do this because I think it’s going to lead towards this type of outcome or this is already going to put more stress on me or my team or hey I really want to do it this way because x y and z really as much as we try to be very technical or down the line emotions play a big part in and we’re doing that and how do you think as a even as an individual contributor so what is something that you would think would be helpful for somebody when it comes to like emotional intelligence right everybody talks about like IQ learning all these skills like how do I learn how to you know program or be a cybersecurity and you know identify you know what what vulnerabilities I have but it’s very important to also understand how to like how to interact with people so what would you say is a good like how would you recommend or what do you think that somebody should do to kind of pick up those skills along with their technical skills?

Karen: So one thing now that I’m in a teaching role I um I kind of it’s it’s a work in progress I’m always um it being no matter how good you think you are at something you should be self-reflective right introspective and think I think you know there’s situations I run into with colleagues now where I’m like oh I didn’t handle that great you know or you know I don’t really like that person per se but that doesn’t really matter like what could I have done to make that interaction better because we all have to work with all types of people we like we don’t like we hate sometimes I mean it runs a gamit and you have to work on projects so um I think uh being really introspective and thinking about a situation even if you’re really angry you know um just thinking about well what could I have done better to make it the situation better because you can only control yourself you can’t control other people and just uh listening like I’m a talker I like to talk but I try to listen a lot and ask same thing when I ask them how they feel about a project or what they think I guess giving someone a a sense of that they that their input matters that helps with those emotional intelligence if you just talk even if somebody doesn’t matter what level they are at the organization you can ask them what they think or feel or how they would approach you know I remember the first time some high level I was still a tech actually when we first got outsourced and we were kind of freaked out because these suits showed up at the college and said hey you’re going to report to this company now you’re no longer working directly for the college so that was a little bit scary I almost was in tears because you know it was happening but I remember one of the directors was asking me how things were running and he said well how would you do it how would you approach that and I thought he’s asking me like it was you know giving my input so I think having that rapport with people like talking to them and asking them about what they’re doing and how their day is and then also one thing I tell my students is networking I mean a lot of people don’t want to network but it’s really important to develop those skills you know there’s the traditional oh public speaking go to Toastmasters you know maybe that works I don’t know but for me it’s always been just getting out there and forcing myself to go out and network and talk to people and then ask them like what are you doing like what is you know what do you like about IT or what do you like about your job or how is it working at x company so just talking and asking people a lot a lot of questions about them and what they do I think that helps with the emotion or emotional intelligence and just people need to feel like you’re listening to them and they’re being heard and when they when that happens and you know they’ll want to connect with you a little bit more and and also you know email you know email texts like teams now or whatever I’ve always tried to not especially if I’m feeling emotional like irritated with somebody type the email don’t send it right away I try to take a nicer tone I’ve heard some people are using AI now to help could you rewrite this email with an empathetic tone you know because I know I come across a little snarky.

Manuel: Right.

Karen: So I think maybe some AI tools work for that but I’ve always kind of tried to really be careful about my communication and think about how that person’s going to take the message I’m giving them and I think and then also thinking about myself like how could I do better and then that allowed me to open up and improve my emotional intelligence because then people were more willing to give me feedback for example one of the managers that reported to me he was an older guy a boomer if you will but it was he was great because I would start to type and get really busy because I’m managing all these things and he come into my office to talk to me and I just be typing uh-huh uh-huh that kind of thing where your boss isn’t paying attention to you and he’d go Karen I need you look at me when I’m talking to you I need you to listen to me and we had a good enough rapport where I’m like instead of getting upset with him I thought no oh no I’m being a jerk right now okay put the keyboard down let me listen to what you’re saying this is important so being able to adjust if you get feedback like that from people you know not getting offended by it and just you know trying to engage I think is I think just trying hard to listen is I guess long story longer here right. [Laughter]

Manuel: And you mentioned something right like it’s hard for many people and I know early on right you’re you’re emotional when you’re getting feedback and you don’t realize that that feedback is something that is obviously it’s going to be beneficial for you.

Karen: Yeah.

Manuel: Now.

Karen: Even if it doesn’t feel like it at the time.

Manuel: If it doesn’t feel like at the time or even if that person maybe the way that they’re delivering it right I mean they’re giving you there’s they’re telling you something maybe it is very snarky maybe it’s very like sarcastic because that’s just their personality that’s the way they deliver it but you almost kind of I had somebody else that mentioned the same thing like you you kind of have to weed through it a little bit more on your own and understand okay they were being snarky but what what were they trying to tell me.

Karen: Right.

Manuel: And why.

Karen: And what’s going on in their world that made them maybe I mean maybe it’s their personality we’ve got I don’t I think especially in technology you get a lot of very smart people and they often think they’re the smartest person in the room sometimes they are sometimes they’re not but you know sometimes I kind of you know try to look at the motivation like so what was that person saying and where are they coming from and try to separate myself like they’re not even if even if they are maybe attacking me or whatever trying to like put up that okay well let’s stick to the let’s stick to the policy let’s stick to the topic you know and not try to get down that emotional rabbit hole because then you’ll just be angry for and yeah that that doesn’t work and sometimes you can if you can stick to what they’re trying to tell you and why you can sometimes get you’ll get a better rapport and actually there’ll be less snarky and less you know maybe less sarcastic you know down the line because you’re listening to what they’re saying and you’re not getting you know offended by how they’re saying it.

Manuel: And is that something that have you gotten better at it over time like if you think about it when you first start especially the manner you’re being young and you know in your 20s I’m just I’m thinking back to myself in my 20s and I was I was very I was quick to react.

Karen: Yeah.

Manuel: Right especially like someone would say something oh man.

Karen: Yes.

Manuel: It took a while and even now there’s times where I mean it took until now where I’ve learned that it takes me a second so are there any techniques or skills that you’ve done so for example me one of the things is I’ve you know I’ve started reading a lot of books lately and one of the big things and I’ve seen it come up a couple times is before you react take a breath.

Karen: Yes.

Manuel: It’s just that simple breath of just.

Karen: Yes.

Manuel: You know like and I will I’m like and then like just that quick breath makes a difference is that obviously you say that you do that but is there anything else that.

Karen: Yeah I actually learned that my dad and of course it didn’t sink in to our older right so I thought being when I was younger I thought being opinionated was a virtue and it’s not so it’s great to have an opinion and speak your mind but you know you’re not always right and you’re not always even if you are right in this area maybe you’re not seeing a perspective that you should because we can’t work we’re an individual human being we can’t see all the angles all the time so yeah the deep breath I remember my dad told me that his grandmother told him take because he would was kind of a hothead when he was young like count to ten and breathe in and out and so now it’s funny I didn’t really use that much when I was younger but I learned after getting smacked a couple of times you know being wrong and then being put in my place to to calm down you know and to realize that yeah that knee jerk reaction and to this day I’ll still do it sometimes too I think we’re not perfect you know sometimes something really gets under your skin you know so you just still have to kind of take a deep breath and figure out what’s the best way to handle the situation and don’t not get so emotionally invested because I think that’s what gets us so upset at work and people get burned out too and they get a little too emotionally invested in all these decisions other people are making and their reactions to us so there’s that and then so readings helped you know I’ve you’re reading a book Malcolm Gladwell book right now like how to talk to people that I got there at the title wrong but it’s like “Talking To Strangers” essentially what you know what to know about people you don’t know and there’s some you know insight in there about you know just having random conversations kind of like the emotional intelligence having these random conversations with people on a plane or maybe not a plane if you want to talk to them but but just having random conversations building your emotional intelligence and just kind of I think just kind of gaining that larger perspective that we probably do get as we get older you know we’re kind of tunnel vision when we’re young that helps you kind of relax and not just react immediately so that’s my big thing and sometimes going and talking to somebody else about it it’s nice my husband’s great he’s a really good partner I can talk to him talk to my mom I have a couple of friends I have a couple of colleagues at work or I can almost run anything by them so that also I think helps that’s your network you know that way you’re like okay I just want to this person just said something to me and or told me that my work was bad and I want to strangle him so now you know let me go talk to somebody else and before I react and say am I overreacting or what and then sometimes that person you talk to will say well maybe the person was coming from this angle and that helps a lot I think so.

Manuel: Even if they’re not right like even if you’re just venting out and saying oh and they’re like nope you’re totally right well okay now you’ve at least taken that step.

Karen: Yeah.

Manuel: Back and say okay so I was right right because a lot of times most of the time we’re wrong right.

Karen: Yeah.

Manuel: I’m like yeah I’m wrong I should have done this.

Karen: I’m learning I’m wrong a lot nowadays.

Manuel: But even if you’re right now when you go back and address it you’ve taken time to say okay all right I am correct how am I gonna do this and so just being you know you’re not gonna go back but like I was right.

Karen: Yeah.

Manuel: Right you’re gonna go like hey you know you’re you’re in a calmer state of mind to address it.

Karen: Yeah.

Manuel: When you are right or wrong you know both ways happen and I think you’re right talking to somebody and talking to somebody that understands who you are right and knows that hey this is this is when you get emotional one of the things that I always had a problem with is I was quick to answer and I found out that I got diagnosed with ADHD like I never knew like people would always make comments like oh you know oh man you’re squirrel squirrel right like it was just everywhere but it wasn’t until later on that I found out that a lot of me I would interrupt people a lot and people took that as you know oh he just thinks he’s smarter he knows but it was just the way that my brain is wired someone would be talking but oh yeah oh you know I would be quick to try and relate to them or help them or oh I know I know what you’re gonna I.

Karen: I know what you’re gonna say before you say it yeah.

Manuel: I think I know what you’re gonna say so that you know I went through and once I got a diagnosed start and go through with the therapist and understand and say okay hey here’s here’s techniques that you can do is you know when you do it and I still have that tendency but I’ll I’ll go and I’ll hold myself back oh hold on let me kind of go back.

Karen: Um same here actually um I tended to talk over people the same thing I want to I’m just so excited I just want to you know I want to contribute and then you’re talking over me you know then I’d have to okay you know stop talking wait take a breath before you respond listen to the whole conversation because oftentimes as you probably noticed too like you we wouldn’t predict correctly what they’re gonna say

Manuel: Yes, yeah most of the time.

Karen: Or like if your boss same thing like if your boss is telling you something and you want to show your boss you’re smart when you’re young like oh oh we can fix that by doing xyz and wait a minute let me finish what I let me finish the whole goal let me tell you the goal of the project before you you know start yip yaping at me right away about how you’re so smart so so yeah I think patience is is a huge thing I mean when I say listening and patience being patient with people is is really important I mean I think after you have kids too you kind of learn that as well you know like you really got to be patient because people aren’t going to do what you want and they’re not going to always admire your intelligence or you know so but you have to figure out how to work with people and I think that’s like no matter what technology you learn you know you can learn a lot of different things but you always you’re always going to have to work with people so a lot of people go into IT for example and say well I just want to they want to work in the basement as the programmer I don’t like people well the world’s not really like that unfortunately you’re gonna have to work on a project and you’re gonna have to work with people so you’re gonna have to figure that out it doesn’t mean you have to be great at all the time but you know like you said like in your case you figured you know I probably have some of the same I never went and got diagnosed maybe I should go maybe I should go but it’s the same thing and taking those breaths and waiting and not realizing that you’re your trigger like I get tense like I get really upset and then I have to go okay you’re getting upset you know I take a breath you know maybe go look at your phone and you know look at Instagram for a minute or something you know and do something like that maybe go take a walk for a second especially working from home like I’ll do that get up from my desk okay I’m gonna go change some laundry out really quick instead of being angry you know do something like that you know that way it’s you’re channeling that out and then you can approach the situation a little with a little more you know calmness so you know because you don’t want people to think especially as a woman I feel and this happens to men too I feel like a lot of times they’ll think you’re emotional and I would get that I got that feedback from a boss one time it’s like you’re just being too emotional and right away the feminist in me wanted to be like oh you’re just saying that because I’m a woman in IT and then I did have to take a step back and go no no I was being emotional I need to calm down he’s right you know so.

Manuel: Right but that is something that it’s different right so in that same vein I wonder if sometimes and I have to be careful as well as when I’m as much as we think that you know words don’t matter you know like you know sticks to stones you know all that those kind of sayings but it makes a difference right you might be emotional but if I in me oh he’s passionate right we just no I’m probably more of a hothead than you are but that probably made you at the same time think again your first reaction was oh it’s because I’m a woman right like I’ve got that emotion but I’ve noticed a lot that that’s not it right I’ve seen men that are way more emotional sometimes but we don’t say that right it’s oh they’re just they’re passionate oh they’re just they’re cranky right they’re just they’re different ways so just be careful.

Karen: Yeah so I feel like I have well I feel like yes and you know I have to kind of manage that I that’s why I feel like I have to manage that a little bit more even just so I don’t you know hey the world is the way it is I’m I need you know I gotta think about the perception you know it doesn’t matter you know what you intended to say it’s how people perceive you so you gotta unfortunately you know right or wrong we have to manage that to an extent.

Manuel: So now as a Senior Director you know I’m assuming from at this point now as you’re kind of moving up the ranks you know you’ve gone from individual computer individual contributor to manager director now senior director now at this point you know I would think that in most people’s eyes the next logical step is now towards go towards like a CIO role so what was what was that point like for you or were you fine being at that senior director level and kind of what was the next step for you?

Karen: Well I was a Senior Director I was kind of like Assistant CIO so didn’t quite have the power of CIO but I still had operational I had to manage you know other directors team that you are on at the time and which you know like say at that point you don’t know the whole I don’t know a lot of technology so I have to rely on everybody else to give me that feedback to make good decisions working with the CIO so I thought about becoming a CIO um but I I ended up as a Senior Director I ended up doing a lot of like it’s a lot of relationship management a lot of um I guess the most fun part of that job was I could um I could select projects that I wanted to do more often so you know there was there was a problem on the campus of a need I could address that and I had enough clout that people would listen to me and then my boss at the time was you know good about well yeah you can we can do that’s a worthwhile project go ahead you know so that that was nice and the I had the relationships to be able to get resources and work with people and figure out the budgets and go talk to everybody um and so I could select projects and um also in addition to the projects that the team was feeding up you know things that the college wanted you know so that that was kind of nice being able to see that that stuff through but around that time I I think at the time the CIO wasn’t going to move and so I did kind of start looking outside a bit it was more of a lateral and other director position um just because I wasn’t so sure I could take a CIO role on at a whole another you know even if it was another academic institution that’s still like I haven’t been a CIO yet so I was looking around at the time and then um it I don’t know how it happened but at some point I was looking at the purposes I was working at the college I was looking at what the professors were doing and they were creating courses and interacting with students and I’m like huh that seems like fun so I actually went over and instead of going the CIO route I actually went over the professor route and I started moving towards teaching and you know they were receptive because I had been in the IT department they knew me um so I actually took a pivot and a pay cut to do that but it was it’s a completely different world you know moving into teaching and being a professor at um at the college but um yeah I kind of it was a I guess it was a turning point and you know I I wanted to be I thought about becoming a CIO it just wasn’t available at the time and then I kind of was thinking about what I wanted to do and I ended up moving into teaching basically to try to almost like a I wouldn’t call it a lateral it was not a lateral but just to do something completely different than you know IT operations so that’s kind of how I made that move.

Manuel: So I know when you went to go for the manager position you know you weren’t sure if you could do it but someone had told you.

Karen: Yeah.

Manuel: Hey I think you’d be good for that if do you think it would have helped you and again that we don’t know for sure but if someone had gone through and said hey you know what I think you would make a good CIO or hey there’s openings do you think would you would have been more apt to try it I’m not saying that you made a bad decision one way or the other right did things work out for a reason in my belief.

Karen: Yeah.

Manuel: But do you think that that again that insecurity of well I’ve never been a CIO before I don’t know if if I can do that would that have helped?

Karen: Um perhaps yeah perhaps um I think I’m a little bit better now at networking than I was back then because uh actually this new working as a professor now and trying to connect students to jobs that’s actually improved my networking game quite a bit but um yeah I think it might have kept me on that track um but I’m not a hundred percent sure because I really started looking at a different area that I’d never thought of before teaching and thought wow that looks like a lot of fun and you know and you know you can I can work and teach technology that I never got to touch as a manager so because you’re not really I didn’t really get to program anything or set anything up or you know build anything as a manager so it was kind of a I think at that time uh I could have gone either or I guess but um I don’t regret it I think you know I think I could always go back on that track um there’s leadership roles too in academics that I could take within our department so I’m not I it’s opened up new avenues so that I wouldn’t have expected so sometimes you you think well you’re going to do this one job and it’s a pay cut only well no it gives you a whole new skill set so it’s actually so I don’t regret it at all but to back to your point though perhaps if somebody had been really like no I think you’re on that track maybe I would have and something would have been available of course it gets really skinny at the top right there’s not that many CIO positions so yeah certainly it it probably yes I would say so that’s why I think that mentorship is important I actually had one of our one of the staff that we had um I had been talking to him about his career because he was young and he was talking about um it’s been a while but he was talking about what he wanted to do as far as um career paths and I’m like well we don’t have that here so I said you know what if you really want to move on and make a lot lot better money you know you’re going to have to leave CSN and you’re going to have to go a different route like in that case it was a corporation so I just I kind of just gave him that advice and then you know a few years later he pinged me on LinkedIn and said hey thanks for that advice I’m really glad you made me think that I should make that move now and I did and now he’s working for a credit card company and he’s like I really love this job I love working with different types of technology so so yeah I think you know I’ve provided that mentorship to him and it he thanked me later I had forgotten about it but yeah I think so too you know whereas that helped me early on to make the jump into management it probably would have helped too with a CIO.

Manuel: I also think you did you mentioned something important right like it’s it was completely different you got to explore and try it out right even now if you know I know you’ve been doing it for a few years but if you decided you didn’t want to go you can always go back.

Karen: Yeah absolutely I have the confidence that I know I can go back and I’ve actually still tried to maintain that network and work on side side projects and things so I think I got back and more hands-on into technology you know I started started teaching Linux like I really like Linux so I started teaching that cloud computing AWS and Azure and things like that so and and then you know in addition to that I ended up becoming a getting awarded a National Science Foundation grant you know that we have for the college and you know being that’s another thing I can add to my resume now that I can obtain external funding you know for to build you know our Cloud Systems Administration degree and be able to host you know cloud boot camps and get AWS people to come over and talk to students and employers and things like that so there’s a lot of satisfaction I think so that’s why I’m not glad I that’s why I am glad I made the move because now I’m it’s a little more tangible I get a student a job I talk to an employer I bring an employer in to help students out with their resumes give them new experiences you know the AWS JAM you know we have provided that for our students two years in a row because of that NSF grant and like next week I’m going to go to Washington D.C. and meet you know other people that have grants for other schools other faculty so it’s and then that’s added something into my resume that I just never would have had and it’s also built built my confidence up to to where I’m like yeah I could I could be a CIO no problem so I know I think I could not that it would be no problem but I do think that I I do think that even though I didn’t have the confidence right at that moment this move over here actually is giving me a another set of skills and now I do have confidence that I could go back into you know directly into an IT department I wouldn’t be worried about being a CIO I think I could I definitely have would be able to handle it.

Manuel: You talked about at the beginning when you went over there you knew it was a pay cut yeah and a lot of times people are afraid that oh man it’s a pay cut it’s a demotion it’s not always a demotion right.

Karen: No.

Manuel: You’re picking up different skills it’s a different it’s a different role and maybe that role just doesn’t pay the same amount that you know what you’re currently doing just because again you’re able to pick up a different skill set I’ve had some of those opportunities and I’ve talked to other people where they’ll go and they’re like well it’s a pay cut but it’s a different skill set it’s a different type of role I’m interested in doing it and sure like you know maybe it is a temporary setback but now you’ve built more of a network you’re gaining additional skills obviously you gained even more confidence so now you could probably go and even surpass what you were making before if that’s an avenue you want to take but I know that teaching for you has been rewarding and I know at some point when we worked together when you were the Senior Director and I was a Manager at the college and I’m surprised and this is where that emotional intelligence comes in I know we had conversations you you know we had talked and I mentioned man I don’t remember exactly what the conversation was but it was something to the effect of man I think I would enjoy teaching like I think that would be something fun or something I would be interested in and you’re like oh yeah that sounds good eventually parted ways you know I ended up leaving the college and when you went into teaching I was I was genuinely surprised that you reached out to me and said hey at what point at one point you mentioned that you would be interested in teaching we have a vacancy for at that time it was a VMware course you know I had done VMware and that to me it was surprising because I was like man I didn’t remember the conversation initially but after you said I’m like oh I do remember us having that conversation and I don’t remember the time frame but it was a couple years after I had left so it wasn’t like oh we just had that conversation three months ago this is like two three years later so that was something that and I’ll tell you that I was very appreciative too because that’s eventually what has led me towards getting better at even doing my own job the reason I say that is if you might think you’re the smartest person in the world but if you can’t explain it to somebody else how well do you really know it and understand it and that has I noticed that when I started teaching the VMware to where my VMware skills grew over time it was like exponential just because I understand it but how do I explain it to somebody else how do I tell somebody else like a co-worker what I’m doing or how do I hand this off so that’s something that I don’t know if I’d mentioned to you in the past but.

Karen: No thank you.

Manuel: But yeah that that made.

Karen: Because you’ve been great.

Manuel: It made a big impact in me like in my personal career and also you know just kind of getting into the teaching aspect and eventually not gonna lie that that’s what’s led to this forum is I see the need in teaching and communicating and letting others people other people know not just here’s how you build technological skill sets right.

Karen: Right.

Manuel: I’m not gonna build something like hey you want to learn VMware let me build all these classes there’s tons of that out there what there’s not is how do I manage my career you know given that advice like well how do I move up within here I think you’ve been very fortunate to be able to progress and really stay I wouldn’t say it’s the same company right because you know you’re at the college but basically at the same place.

Karen: Yeah pretty yeah I was pretty lucky to be able to I mean depending on well it depends on what you want to do right I mean some people if you work for government which is like colleges state college it’s easier to stay in in one place and kind of move up the rank