Ministry burnout has reached crisis levels, with many pastors leaving the field due to physical, emotional, and spiritual exhaustion. But what if the solution started with something as simple as a 15-minute workout? In this conversation with fitness coach and pastor Steve McKinney, we explore the powerful connection between physical health and ministry effectiveness. Steve shares his practical “Three W” system that’s helping pastors prevent ministry burnout while staying strong, focused, and resilient in their calling – without adding hours to an already packed schedule.

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Resources in this Episode:

• ep033 with Steve McKinney
• Fitnessandmore.net
• The Gospel of Fitness by Steve McKinney
• Atomic Habits by James Clear
• John Ridge’s “One Minute Pause” – A brief detachment prayer/meditation that says “Jesus, I give everyone and everything to you”
• Prayer of Agur (from Proverbs 30:8-9) – “Don’t give me so much that I forget you Lord, or so little that I have to steal from you. Just give me what I need.”

Transcript: The Reality of Ministry Burnout and Physical Health

Steve McKinney: [00:00:00] When people are trying to choke you, you’re not thinking about people who are mad at you, you’re thinking about surviving. So that’s the beauty of that. Once again, I’m removing those thoughts from my brain.

Joy Hunt: Last week, we heard Steve McKinney’s incredible story about how he turned his garage gym into a mission field, blending his passion for fitness with pastoral ministry. If you missed that conversation, I’d encourage you to go back and listen.

It’s a powerful example of finding evangelism opportunities in unexpected places and why we as pastors need to be involved in the community, not just in the church.

Now, this podcast is about money, but my heart is to help pastors stay healthy in ministry. And here’s the thing: our physical health directly impacts our financial health.

When we’re constantly stressed and exhausted, we make poor money decisions. It’s hard to budget wisely, teach stewardship effectively, or even stay in ministry long enough to build financial stability when we’re running on empty. Today, Steve is back to share something [00:01:00] every pastor needs to hear: his practical three-W system for staying physically and emotionally healthy in ministry.

The Ministry Burnout Crisis: Why Pastor Health Matters

With Pastor burnout at an all-time high and a shortage of pastors in the pipeline, we can’t afford to ignore the connection between our physical health, our financial health, and our ministry effectiveness. Steve breaks down his 15-minute workout system. Explains why walking after dinner is a game changer. And shows us how physical discipline helps us take every thought captive. If you’re feeling overwhelmed by the idea of adding fitness to your already packed schedule, this conversation will change your perspective.

It definitely changed mine.

Joy Suzanne: Welcome to the Pastors & Money Podcast. I’m Joy Suzanne Hunt, pastor and financial coach, bringing you conversations about personal finance, church finance and how we disciple our churches in the areas of finance and stewardship. You can find the episode show notes, and more at pastorsandmoney.com. And [00:02:00] here’s the show.

Meet Steve McKinney: Pastor and Fitness Coach

Joy Hunt: Steve McKinney is a bestselling author, fitness coach, and Brazilian Jiujitsu black belt dedicated to. Helping people age strong and live healthier lives. As the owner of Fitness and More Incorporated, he has helped countless individuals transform their bodies through his unique three-W approach to fitness.

And why is he on this podcast? Well, Steve is also a church pastor, integrating faith and mindset into his approach to wellness. His book, the Gospel of Fitness, breaks down the Science of Strength training and Nutrition in a way that’s practical, sustainable, and life-changing.

We often see pastors burning out. We see physically, emotionally, spiritually, and I know we have right now across denominations in the US, we have a shortage of pastors in the pipeline. There aren’t enough coming in to replace the ones that are retiring, dying, or quitting. Some of that is because of that burnout.

How does physical health specifically impact [00:03:00] our ability to lead effectively and, to maintain financial discipline too? ’cause the finances are a piece of staying in the ministry as well.

The Weight of Ministry: Dealing with Stress and Conflict

Steve McKinney: Yeah, absolutely. So, going back to what I was saying earlier about this week, so my week, this week, I’m dealing with probably five divorces that are going on, and I’m trying to walk people through that. And I don’t do counseling. I have professional counselors that I send. People do, and that works much better.

Joy Hunt: Mm-hmm.

Steve McKinney: But I still, you know, I try to talk to people and stay in touch with them. Just men. I don’t counsel women. You know, I’m very careful in how I approach all of those things, but I’ll just talk to the guys. But I had one that was really, really stressful. It was a young man, known forever, and he’s just going through a horrible, horrible situation, and then I had somebody. mad at me this week and posted on social media about me. I had no idea what I had done. She sent me really ugly messages. It was just really crazy. I know that we have to be resilient, but that affects me. I think it affects everyone. [00:04:00] I came home from work on Monday, and I’m like, “Hey, Jen, do you know this particular person?” She goes, “Yeah.” And I said, “Yeah, they sent me ugly messages.” She laughed and she goes, “So you’re the pastor that they’re posting about on Facebook?”

And I’m like, “yep, that’s me.” And so, it was really, really stressful.

Pastor Fitness as Mental Health Strategy

Steve McKinney: But for me, that’s where exercise comes in. When I go to lift weights, the beauty of that for me is that I designed my workouts to be 15-minute workouts. I talk about that in the book. But the beauty of the workout is that I always just remind myself to stay in the moment. I’m working really hard. I do, all my reps really controlled, but I’m staying in the moment, and that. takes that looping thought process, those thoughts that go in your brain. It removes those. It helps me. And then I’ll train [00:05:00] jujitsu. When people are trying to choke you, you’re not thinking about people who are mad at you; you’re thinking about surviving. So that’s the beauty of that. Once again, I’m removing those thoughts from my brain.

Walking and Spiritual Discipline

Steve McKinney: the other part of that is, I’m walking and what I’ll do a lot of times is I have a grandson and so, uh, he loves the, he’s. 16 months old, but he loves to go for a walk. so I’ll just walk through the neighborhood and then I listen to, a pastor on, my phone.

I’m getting the word in him at 16 months old.

Joy Hunt: That’s right.

Steve McKinney: listening to those things. And so that is also, that’s how, that’s how it helps me. That’s how exercise helps me. It separates me from those continuous thoughts. That go along that and it’s, and it’s, and then I can come and reface those, and deal with them in that way.

Prayer and Mental Reset Strategies

Steve McKinney: And then I have, John Ridge’s, one minute pause. I don’t know if you’ve ever heard that one, but I got about a million minutes on that one. ’cause it’s just this little detachment thing that says, Jesus, I give [00:06:00] everyone and everything to you. And so when I’m going through tough times, I use those. but that’s, that’s the, the things that I use for my mental health. As I’m going through difficult times, but exercise, it also releases endorphins in your brain and when you leave, you’re like, oh my gosh, I’m alive again. I’m not in the dumps, I’m not, dealing with that and my, I’m not always, super stressed.

The ministry, you can be cruising, ride along and then all of a sudden it’s boom. I had three people outside of my door after last week’s sermon just waiting for. To talk and, you know, and so yeah, it’s

been that kind of a thing. And so, yeah. So that’s how I, how I approach it.

Physical Activity as Taking Every Thought Captive

Joy Hunt: I remember, starting to build a walking habit several years ago when I had been. in a really rough season, and I had just started seeing a great Christian counselor, I remember telling her, I’ll walk a thousand miles if it makes me feel better. Because I would go out there, I’d get the vitamin D, I’d get those endorphins.

All my, I I I like to say like, all my chemicals go in the right [00:07:00] buckets.

Steve McKinney: Yeah.

Joy Hunt: and so for you, it sounds like physical activity becomes a way of taking every thought captive.

Steve McKinney: It it

Joy Hunt: In a practical sense, like we know that we’re supposed to do that scripturally, but then like practically, what does that look like in the moment?

And this is one of the ways that that could look.

Steve McKinney: absolutely. You know, and then with my personal training business, I still work a couple of days in there. and, and that’s, honestly, it’s a workout. I train people, but it’s also counseling

Joy Hunt: Mm-hmm.

Steve McKinney: of people. I don’t mind that a bit. it’s just beautiful to be able to do that.

Ministry Through Fitness: Unexpected Evangelism Opportunities

Steve McKinney: And a lot of times I’ll be in the middle of a session. I had a guy in and we were, just talking about heaven and, his name’s John, I go, John, well, why would you be able to go to heaven? He goes, well, Steve, I’m a good person. I go, John, permission to speak freely. And he goes, yeah. I go, you’re not, you’re really, you’re a jerk. I’ve heard you and I’ve talked to you for a long period of time. So I just told him that and we’re good friends, and I could say that, but I shared the gospel with him in that. Particular, you know, particular thing.

The good people don’t go to heaven, believers go to heaven. So that’s, you know, kind of fun [00:08:00] in that space too. And so it’s been really, really good in that.

The Church as Both Sanctuary and Battleground

Steve McKinney: The church though, and I think a lot of times for the pastor, can be a very dangerous place. And it’s sometimes, you know, I have a great church, so I really have a great support group,

Joy Hunt: Mm-hmm.

Steve McKinney: this week it was a, it was a bad place.

And then I had a. Accountant talking about finances make a huge, financial error that costs me a whole bunch of money that I don’t have. So I have to recover from

Joy Hunt: Mm-hmm.

Steve McKinney: at the same time, a prayer that I pray, I think the guy’s name is, I think it’s the prayer of Ahab, is that right? what it says is, don’t give me so much that I forget you Lord, or so little that I have to steal from you. Just give me what I need. And so when I go through that, I always think, you know, I think God’s just answering that prayer and keeping me in a place where I need to be and so that I can still stay in the middle of ministry.

Finding Purpose in the Battle

Steve McKinney: And then one more thought with that. Even though this week [00:09:00] was very, very difficult as I was meditating on the week in my bed, I thought, yeah, this is exactly, I’m right in the will of God. I’m right in the center of God’s will right now. This is what I signed up for. So,

Joy Hunt: It’s, and we know as believers and especially as ministry leaders and pastors that, um, that it’s a battle.

Steve McKinney: it’s constant.

Joy Hunt: It’s, it’s a battle. That’s where we are preparing and we’re going out in, into the battlefield. And that the enemy wants nothing more than Can he distract you? Can he twist somebody’s comment and, and cause you to spin it around in your head, you know?

And so having that perspective and that reminder that. There’s not that if things are bad, that that always means I’m doing the right thing, but also if I’m doing the right thing, sometimes it’s gonna be rough.

Building Relationships Through Movement

Steve McKinney: That’s so true. You know, and another thing too, with my walking I’ll walk with my wife sometime,

Joy Hunt: Mm-hmm.

Steve McKinney: [00:10:00] So that is

Joy Hunt: Yep.

Steve McKinney: for the relationship too.

Joy Hunt: One of my favorite things to do, almost every week I go on a bike ride with my mom.

Steve McKinney: I love that.

Joy Hunt: And

Steve McKinney: absolutely.

Joy Hunt: but I feel like a bike ride is just the right amount of some conversation, but then sometimes you’re just riding

Steve McKinney: Uhhuh.

Joy Hunt: uh, but you’re still with somebody. It kind of reminds me of in college when I would get together and study with friends that weren’t in my classes.

So we weren’t working on the same stuff, but we were just together.

Steve McKinney: love that.

Joy Hunt: it’s the, introverts togetherness, I feel like.

Steve McKinney: Yeah.

The Time Challenge: Overwhelmed Pastors Need Simple Solutions

Joy Hunt: Yeah. So, you know, a lot of our pastors time is a huge challenge. you talked about. there’s administrative stuff, there’s the counseling, there’s visitation, there’s sermon prep.

Some of us are working another job outside of things, and so a lot of times it can feel like we’re too busy to prioritize our health and so. we’re trying to, and our schedule goes all sorts of different ways and it’s hard to keep up with a routine too. what practical advice would you give to [00:11:00] pastors who maybe want to be able to prioritize their health, but the idea of a big calendar suck up is just overwhelming.

The Three W System: Weight Training, Walking, Watching Diet

Steve McKinney: Absolutely. So that’s the beauty of what I developed,

Joy Hunt: Mm-hmm.

Steve McKinney: w

Joy Hunt: Go for it.

Steve McKinney: So, I did a. Book tour this year, and I’ve done several churches. that was really fun by the way. I really, really enjoyed them. But when I do ’em, I always tell people, you have this three W approach to fitness, so just hold up three fingers. And if you look at that, it makes a W. And the three Ws are weight training, walking and watching your diet. Now here’s the thing, and this is the beauty of it. As I said earlier, I kept track of everything that everyone did when it comes to workouts, and I developed a system from that. to train people for like a half hour, three days a week, which I found was more, I don’t like just to fill time. I like to make sure that we’re efficient at everything we do.

The 15-Minute Pastor Fitness Revolution

Steve McKinney: So my workouts are 15 minutes, which sounds crazy, and people think, oh, there’s no way that a 15 minute workout would work. I can get a client into the gym in two exercises. Literally two minutes, [00:12:00] I can change their mind. And so it’s just a matter of training properly, training safely. I call it training your muscles and saving your joints. I was on a podcast from A doctor. Who’s into exercise and, prescribes exercise for people. Then I was explaining to him that joint health is incredibly important and he’s, so we’re talking and by the end of the, I talk about what’s called time under load.

Joy Hunt: Mm-hmm.

Steve McKinney: I make sure that people lift weights very, very slowly. They focus on the muscles, they stay in the moment, and I was telling him, you know about that and at the end of the podcast he said, I’m gonna try your method because my joints. Hurt. And I just told them at 50 years old, if they hurt now, trust me,

Joy Hunt: Mm-hmm.

Steve McKinney: not gonna get any better. And joint health is really important.

Treating Pastor Health Like a Doctor’s Appointment

Steve McKinney: So the point I’m making there is everything that I do is done for a reason. It’s done very efficiently, it’s done very slowly. It’s very safe on your joints. And so, and I just suggest two 15 minute workouts per week. Now when I start the [00:13:00] workouts in the book, I go to three for the first two weeks, and then I go to two. the reason for that is they have to learn the routine. And so I always say, put that on your schedule. Maybe you’re an early morning person. Put that on your schedule. Treat it at as a, as a doctor’s appointment because, the more that you treat that as a doctor’s appointment, the less doctor’s appointments that you’ll have.

The Science Behind Pastor Fitness Benefits

Steve McKinney: And so, because it helps you when you lift weights properly or a couple of things that happen, one of the things that happens. release these things called myokines and myokines are these little, we’ll just call ’em, we’ll just call ’em little guys that go out and they, they start from your muscles and they go out to other parts of your body, your organs.

And what they do is they say, Hey, listen, we’re having a party over here. We want you to come join us. But they’re, they’re signals, that say to your body. is good for us. It’s good for all parts of our body. And so that’s the one thing that is very, very helpful because [00:14:00] people lift weights, they always think about appearance.

I’m like, yeah, you know, everybody wants to look better. But it’s not always about appearance. It’s about attempt. And the attempt is to make sure you stay healthy.

Heart Health Benefits for Ministry Leaders

Steve McKinney: The second thing that, the way that, I lift weights it causes. Your heart to get better. Okay, so a lot of times people, like you were mentioning, riding your bike.

When you’re riding your bike, your heart rate is higher and people think that is the only thing. When it comes to heart rate, it’s part of it, but it’s not the only thing. There’s something called stroke volume, and so when we do a set of exercise, you stay under the load for 60 to 90 seconds. That is your muscles are under tension and then when you release it, there’s a bunch of blood that is released into your bloodstream that goes back to your heart.

It’s in the muscle and the, it’s almost too much, so it has to go into this waiting pattern. Heart can only pump out so much blood per beat. But what it does is because of that, it goes, boom, it pumps that blood out, [00:15:00] and then here’s this next mount. That’s a lot. Boom, it, it pumps that out. And so now we have our stroke volume. That is, it makes it better. So it’s very, very healthy for your heart.

Real Results: A Pastor’s Heart Health Transformation

Steve McKinney: I’ll give you an example. I’ve lifted weights, like I said, my whole life. My resting pulse rate is 38. Which is extremely low, and it’s because I’ve lifted weights. I’ll go to the doctor and he’s warned the nurse, my heart rate’s gonna be really low because I went in one time and this lady ran out and got the doctor and thought I was dying. But, it’s it because my heart’s very efficient because of lifting weights. So the benefits are there and it doesn’t take long to do it. You, you just set your, you can do it. I have a home workout and a gym workout. You set that up and you do it. At home or you do it in the gym. and just make it efficient.

It doesn’t take a lot of time. The guy was telling you about earlier, he worked out an hour a day, you know, five days a week. And I’m like, dude, that’s a part-time job. I don’t have time for [00:16:00] that.

Joy Hunt: Right,

Steve McKinney: same results, if not better in a very short period of time.

Why Short Workouts Work Better for Busy Pastors

Joy Hunt: and we’re more likely to actually do it.

Steve McKinney: Yes, absolutely. I can’t face an hour in the gym. That would just bore me. I’m in, I’m out, and I’m on my way. Now some people like to do it for social, that’s

Joy Hunt: Mm-hmm.

Steve McKinney: you still should train properly.

The Walking Solution: 30 Minutes After Dinner

Steve McKinney: Then walking, I just suggest 30 minutes a day for people. If people wanna walk more, they can, but most of the people that come to me, most of the people I deal with. Wanna reduce their body fat levels. So there was a study done years ago, and this guy, what he did was he measured, calorie burn three hours after activity. And here was the three activities that he measured. He measured walking, he measured eating and walking. And he measured walking and eating. And what he concluded was the data, what it suggested was the. Eating and walking increases your BMR, your basal metabolic rate by 25 to 30%. And so what I suggest to my clients is if you can within 15 [00:17:00] minutes after dinner, go out and take a 30 minute walk, it doesn’t have to be fast, very moderate. And what you’ll notice is you’ll notice that you’re, you digest food, you feel better, it kills the hunger.

’cause if you’re trying to reduce. You know, you have to create a calorie deficit to lose body fat. And so you don’t wanna be hungry all the time. And that helps with that hunger. It actually allows, you know, the satiety to happen.

Nutrition for Pastors: Eating Real Food

Steve McKinney: And then the third w is watching your diet, and that’s where I go back to eating real food I used to be a big intermittent, faster. I loved intermittent fasting because, it just made my life so much easier. I just wake up, have a little coffee, go throughout the day, and then eat within a maybe a four hour window from three to seven. And that was perfect for me.

I could get more done, but after I had this silent gerd, that changed everything. I have to eat smaller meals throughout the day. ’cause if I overeat, it causes me to cough. So it’s, been a kind of a challenge there, but there’s all kinds of ways you can go about it. And then eating real food is important.

And then, you know, a lot of studies have shown [00:18:00] that having protein is important as you age. But I think that, you have to be careful with that as well, because I think you can get outta, outta whack with that. And so you just have to balance all those things out. So it’s a, it’s living in balance doing what you can, and, and not, you know, not thinking, Hey, you know, I’m gonna be big and muscular, whatever.

No, I’m just being healthy. This is what I’m gonna, now I, you can be muscular with this. It’s just a matter of how you wanna go about that. But for me, I just want, the average person to be able to be healthy. So that’s really important. So that’s how I approach that.

One Simple Step for Overwhelmed Pastors

Joy Hunt: So if we were, you know, talking to that one pastor listening right now that they just wanna make one small change this week, they wanna be able to take action on something, where would you recommend they start?

Steve McKinney: take a walk. a nice walk. You know, if you have a pastor you like to listen to sermons you like to listen to or not. If you just want to unplug yourself. You just take a walk. That’s the number one thing I would do. I think the second thing I would do is get a copy of my [00:19:00] book and start reading it because it’s gonna speak to you.

How “The Gospel of Fitness” Came to Life

Steve McKinney: And speaking of that, let me tell you real quickly how that came about. I’ve trained pastors for a long period of time, and I went to a pastor’s conference in Florida, this was 10 years ago or so. I had a friend, he was a. talk show guy, and a pastor as well. we met up out there. I didn’t go out there at a meeting, but I saw him there and he goes, Hey man, would you train me? So I took him through a workout. He is like, that’s the best workout of my life. he has a podcast. So he’d have me on his podcast every now and then, his name’s Pete. one time he, Was asking me questions. I said, Pete, I have a book and it’s 90% done. I answer these questions in the book. he goes, you have a book really? what are you gonna do with it? I go, well, just gonna give it out to my

Joy Hunt: S.

Steve McKinney: so that they, you know, kind of know what’s going on.

He goes, well, that’s really interesting. He says, I have a, just started a, publishing company. And he said, would you send me your book? And so by the grace of God, that’s how that came about. Yeah, so it was really cool, but it has helped a lot of people and I’m, I’m really happy about that,

Getting Started: Small Steps to Pastor Health & Preventing Ministry Burnout

Joy Hunt: Well, I’m excited to go, [00:20:00] dust off the weights that have been sitting in my garage for forever.

Steve McKinney: You’ll, and, and then there’s a home workout

Joy Hunt: Mm-hmm.

Steve McKinney: and I think you’ll, and I wanna hear how you’re doing too once you do it,

Joy Hunt: Yeah, I like things that you can make kind of pocket size and, work into the schedule. You know, if I’m learning a language, I want the app that I can practice in the car, That you can work easily into whatever you’re doing because you know, it’s back to, I’m sure you’ve read Atomic Habits.

it’s back to if I can start something small, or sometimes reengage small. I realized when my spin place closed that I had, Because if you’ve never been to a spin class, you’re not just riding the bike. You’re doing all sorts of fun, different kinds of pushups and sometimes weights and you’re not even thinking about it because you’re moving and you’re just having fun.

And I realized that I had built a lot of strength while I was doing those classes, you know? Then, like I don’t have that fitting back into my routine anymore since I’m not there anymore. So I’m like, okay, I need to work that back in.

Strength Training: The Key to Aging Well in Ministry

Steve McKinney: Yeah, absolutely.

Joy Hunt: Mm-hmm.[00:21:00]

Steve McKinney: important. It’s one of the things we lose as we age.

Joy Hunt: Mm-hmm.

Steve McKinney: Yeah.

Joy Hunt: Yeah. And, and I, I would imagine I’m not the expert here, but I would imagine that you can prevent some of that other damage to your joints and things.

if you can be keeping up your strength and building your strength as you’re aging.

Steve McKinney: Absolutely, and sometimes. In certain cases you can even reverse. As long as the joint damage isn’t bad.

Joy Hunt: Mm-hmm.

Steve McKinney: I’ve had several people that we’ve been able to help them. You know, I had a guy that had, shingles in it, settled in his shoulder and he couldn’t lift his shoulder up.

And a year later

Joy Hunt: Wow.

Steve McKinney: his shoulder. So we’ve helped him so much with that,

Joy Hunt: Mm-hmm.

Steve McKinney: working smart.

Connect with Steve McKinney

Joy Hunt: I love it. Awesome. Well, tell us where we can find the book and more about what you’re doing.

Steve McKinney: Yeah, it’s on Amazon and, it’s called the Gospel of Fitness by Steve McKinney. if people need to get in contact with me there, there’s a form, just a intro workout form on my website. It’s fitness and more.net. And then, I’m on Instagram and I’m terrible at using it, but I’m, I’m fitness and more SST l on [00:22:00] Instagram. and I’m on Facebook as Steve McKinney, If anybody wants to get in contact with me and you know, if I can help. Anyway, I’m more than happy to do that.

Joy Hunt: And I’ll make sure to include those in the show notes too. thank you so much for your time this morning. This was a fun, conversation.

Steve McKinney: what a joy.

Joy Hunt: yeah,

Steve McKinney: Like that little,

Joy Hunt: that’s original. I’ve never heard that one before.

Steve McKinney: I’m sure you have it. So, yeah, but it was, it was just fun. I really enjoyed talking to you and so you’re a blessing. I can tell you’re a blessing to the body of Christ, and so that’s awesome.

The Great Commission Requires Healthy Pastors

Joy Hunt: Thank you and thank you for everything that you’re doing to really, you serve a lot of people, but to really helping people stay healthy in ministry. the world needs Jesus. And I was reading this morning of, you know, the, how beautiful are the feet of those that bring good news?

Steve McKinney: yes.

Joy Hunt: The part before, right before that is right.

How can they call on the name of the one they’ve never heard of? We Pastors, we need You

Steve McKinney: Yeah, absolutely.

Joy Hunt: quit.

Steve McKinney: We need you in the game. And that’s the one thing too, as we get older,

Joy Hunt: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Steve McKinney: going [00:23:00] on, we have to be in here for the younger, I’m mentoring younger people and that’s fun. And so I wanna be around to do that.

Joy Hunt: Yeah.

Steve McKinney: So,

Joy Hunt: So thank you for all you’re doing to help our pastors stay encouraged and stay able to stay in the fight.

Steve McKinney: It’s my pleasure. It’s an honor.

Joy Suzanne Hunt: Thank you for listening to today’s show. I’d love to know what you think about it. You can leave a comment on the show notes at pastorsandmoney.com/podcast, or email me at joy@pastorsandmoney.com. If you enjoyed the show, please subscribe, share, and leave a review. This helps us to get the word out and invite more people into these conversations.

If you’d like to connect, you can find me on Instagram or Facebook. @ PastorsandMoney. I can’t wait to talk again [00:24:00] soon.