In part two of our conversation with fighter pilot and attention coach Wes Woodhouse, we dive into practical ways ministers can create attention-rich environments that foster deep spiritual disciplines in a distracted world. Learn how to lead by example, establish routines that enhance creativity, and build communities that value presence over distraction. Discover why setting boundaries with technology isn’t just good for you—it’s essential for effective ministry in today’s attention-starved world.

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Resources:

• Part one of Focus Like a Fighter Pilot
• WesWoodhouse.com

Interview Transcript:

Joy Suzanne: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Pastors & Money Podcast. I’m Joy Suzanne Hunt, pastor and financial coach, bringing you conversations about personal finance, church finance and how we disciple our churches in the areas of finance and stewardship. You can find the episode show notes, and more at pastorsandmoney.com. And here’s the show.

Joy Hunt: Today we’re continuing my conversation with Wes Woodhouse about attention focus and how we can apply fighter pilot techniques to our spiritual disciplines. If you missed part one, I encourage you to go back and listen as we explored the growing attention gap in our society and how it’s affecting our spiritual lives.

Let me reintroduce Wes. He’s a husband, father, marathon runner, and fighter pilot. His mission is to build up the next generation of [00:01:00] leaders armed to take on the dynamic challenges of the attention age. In 2020, he founded Vector Atlas, a leadership development and attention cultivation agency where he leads a mastermind of committed men, grounded in wise counsel and accountability, striving to live a life of purpose.

As an attention performance coach, he helps leaders maximize their potential by focusing on what is most important. In our first episode was shared how his experience as a fighter pilot taught him the critical importance of focused attention and how those same principles can help us. In our spiritual walk, ~~we discussed how the distractions of modern life are creating an attention gap.~~

~~We discussed how the distractions of modern life are creating an attention gap that affects our ability. I gotta try that again.~~ We discussed how the distractions of modern life are creating an attention gap that affects our ability to connect deeply with God and others. In the second part of our conversation, we’ll be exploring practical ways to help our congregations develop better focus habits, how to create environments that foster deep spiritual connection, and how to build communities that value presence.

Let’s jump back into our conversation with Westwood House.

Creating Routines for Spiritual Disciplines

[00:02:00]

Joy Hunt: Right, exactly. So thinking about from a spiritual disciplines, and just our spiritual life perspective, then, you know, sometimes that might look like, do you have a routine of when you do your quiet time or how you set up so that when you start, you can start, instead of sitting down and getting ready to get ready to get ready,

Wes Woodhouse: Yeah.

Joy Hunt: do you have a, it may not always work out to be a consistent si time of day. Some people’s. Life and number of kids they have is not conducive to that.

Wes Woodhouse: right.

Joy Hunt: do you have something that can anchor you back into that today? I did my Bible study sitting at jury duty,

Wes Woodhouse: Yeah.

Joy Hunt: which by the way was very distracting. Talk about attention ’cause they’ve got the TVs on and

Wes Woodhouse: Yeah.

Joy Hunt: How loud can I make my headphones where I’ll still hear if they call my name? You know, but, so that I’m not hearing the whatever home remodeling show that’s playing on the TVs.

But I was like, okay, we’re just gonna pick up and take this routine that I normally do [00:03:00] sitting at my desk and I’m just gonna do it sitting in a room full of 200 people instead. But I still have the routine as a touch point. you know, or if you have, sometimes that looks like having, what’s the backup plan version of this,

The Power of Macro Routines

Wes Woodhouse: I think that it is very important, not only the small picture routine, your bible study, quiet time, your morning routine specifically is. In many ways, there’s the larger, routine that if you adhere to that, that will enable successful micro routines

For example, when we are getting ready for a mission to fly, there’s distinct phases. There’s always a mission planning

Then there’s the briefing phase where you brief everybody what you’re gonna go do. Then there’s the execution phase, and then there’s the debrief phase where you go back and you figure out what went well,

Why and how can we do this better? Same thing is you get your big picture routine as far as I am going to [00:04:00] make sure that I am winding down and going to bed at a certain time to then enable me to get a good amount of sleep consistently to then enable me to wake up at the time that I need to. then enables doing quiet time or you know, whatever else it is.

And so you put those macro routines together? yeah. And then to your point of having a routine or a checklist that you follow, that just becomes.

It is, an enabler for, you’re not thinking about the process because you’ve already vetted that process

Joy Hunt: Right.

Wes Woodhouse: it works. You are just executing the process. And so any of that time that would have been spent on, okay, now what do I do, or

Or whatever else

Joy Hunt: Right.

How Routines Enhance Creativity and Attention

Wes Woodhouse: to execute your routine more succinctly, still getting out the same quality, if not more quality. And then it, opens up the aperture for actually being able to be creative because you’re not cognitively weighed [00:05:00] down on the logistics minutia

Of how to get this done. And so your mind, since it’s not weighed down by the human logistics is able to go and have that. unconscious thought in the margins. and that I believe you’re right, is it will, because I agree with it and have experientially, seen that as well. that yeah, you will end up being more creative, so to speak, when you do adhere to Routine that is enabling. you know, going back to the shame thing, going into it, giving yourself the grace to, okay, this is not working, so stop it.

Joy Hunt: Right.

Wes Woodhouse: what was good about it?

Take the good parts, print out the bad parts

Joy Hunt: Right.

Wes Woodhouse: something else in and then try it again and give yourself the grace to change it when you need to change

~~Now.~~ And that’s kind of a double-edged sword because. when you meet adversity and you’re like, ah, this is getting old. you know, you kinda have to, a friend of mine put it really well. he was actually asking for accountability in, a [00:06:00] certain area of his life. And I can’t even remember the specifics, but, what he was like is he said, this is my quit criteria,

Establishing Clear Criteria for Success and Failure

I think it was actually, he said, make sure that you ask me what my quit criteria is after I’ve done the planning for whatever this thing is that he was gonna do. Make sure you ask me for what my quit criteria is that I either have it or I need to make it such that. Then when I get to that place, if I’ve met the, should I quit now criteria and, you know, try something different.

And I’m enabled, I’ve enabled myself to do

So I can actually continue progressing instead of just staying in the churn of something that’s not working.

So I, think that is definitely true, that creativity will be spawned out of, or more creativity will be spawned of good, positive, useful routines.

Joy Hunt: and if you think about it, like those routines and those checklists that you have as a pilot, those are not the first draft of those.

Wes Woodhouse: Yeah, exactly.

Joy Hunt: Some really smart people took a long time working on making different [00:07:00] iterations and trying to make it a system that’s gonna run smoothly so that you’re not bogged down in the process, but you’re covering all the things that you need to cover.

And the same way the routines that we create for ourselves, sometimes you gotta test it and refine it and adjust it. Okay, well that didn’t work. and, you know, not just, okay, I hit resistance, but where’s the breakdown? Is the breakdown, the routine is the breakdown something else? Um, and then I’m, you know, thinking too that those routines actually help us back to the social media and our devices and all that, that by having the next thing decided already, it keeps us from gravitating to the phone for the next thing.

Using Workflows to Combat Digital Distractions

Or to wherever for the next thing you know, I have a couple, for some church things. Then for some business things, I have a couple of workflows. So on Fridays, I do a certain checklist. On Saturdays I have another checklist and sometimes I get interrupted in it, but I can always touch base back on it, and [00:08:00] I don’t have to worry whether those things are gonna get done. They’re gonna get done.

I’m also not necessarily going to look at this even to the point of my email puts notifications and newsletters kind of in their own bucket. And I have a day that I know that I’m gonna go through them, so I don’t need to go through them the rest of the week.

Wes Woodhouse: Yeah.

Joy Hunt: I go through the regular ones, but I don’t go through, unless I’m like looking for something specific.

I don’t have to deal with the gajillion emails that come in

I know that they will get done this week.

Wes Woodhouse: Right.

Joy Hunt: It’ll get done on such and such morning. Right. and so it can kind of protect you from some of the, oh, I need to check whatever, because you’ve already had a, for if it is something you need to check, you can design when you’re gonna check it.

Wes Woodhouse: Exactly. And so you were describing two things as you’re mentally offloading the in, in line viewing of, the newsletters or whatever else it is. ~~So you’re offloading~~

Load of constantly

Of information that you don’t need that time, and you’re offloading the logistics of when you’re gonna get to it

Navigating the Attention Gap in Ministry Life

Joy Hunt: Let’s [00:09:00] pivot a little bit here. And, you know, thinking about, I love this conversation about focus and even some of these strategies because for us in the ministry space, in some ways, sometimes our lives can be even less structured than if you’re going to a job job and we have to put some of these things into place.

Depending on what your ministry environment looks like. You may not have something where your workday always starts at the same time, or you may not have some, we may not even going to the same place every day. Right.

Wes Woodhouse: Yeah.

Joy Hunt: And so that I think some of these tools they’ve been helpful for my ministry.

I know they’ll be helpful for others, but now how can we help our congregations, develop deeper spiritual focus in this world of distractions? What practical advice could we offer them?

Leading by Example for Deeper Spiritual Focus

Wes Woodhouse: Well, the first I think would be lead by example in that place where, sounds like you already are in many ways, if the people who [00:10:00] you’re trying to influence or give them the tools to develop a deeper spiritual focus and you’re not also pretty good on, those types of. Tactics then they’re gonna see right through do, as I say, not as I do type of idea. So I would say, Hey, you need to practice it yourself so that you can, experientially say, yeah, this is what helps me. so just being that, and then, for anybody who’s actually on your team making, I guess, more strict rules around things like that.

For example, I run the soundboard at church and so, you know, hey,

Joy Hunt: And you’re everybody’s hero, by the way.

Wes Woodhouse: Yeah, exactly. I love it. It’s a lot of fun, you know, hey, let’s leave the cell phone, outside of hands reach, unless there’s an actual operational need to having that and make sure that you’re. doing that for your team as

That they need, to have a certain environment, I [00:11:00] guess. secondly, I mean, I think a lot of it is just the things that we’ve talked about specifically Cage two, their spiritual, journey, their walk and, you know, emphasizing, it’s important to continue reminding everybody.

Prioritizing Our Values to Close the Attention Gap

I need to remind myself this as well, but, you know, what are my priority, my big picture priorities in life, it’s faith, family, fitness, and then function. Or sometimes they say flying, which is, my job and then fun. And so making sure that I have that top priority dialed in, and when I continually go back to that’s my top priority, then that will filter down into, Should I be prioritizing this or that? You know, just kind of lacing every conversation with that. I think, the best business leaders are the ones who have that vision of where they want to go. And then everything just points back to that vision when somebody’s briefing them on, [00:12:00] Hey, I think we should change this.

They’re like, how does that support our vision? if there’s not a great answer, then maybe we either need to refine that effort go with something else. continually aging, you know, that conversation to, how does that help us with, or how does that help you with your walk or, you know, how does that help you with your outreach or whatever it is?

The Power of Being Fully Present

I think those are the big things. And again, it goes back to if you’re not doing it yourself and people are seeing that your attentional life is in shambles, then they’re gonna see right there anything that you say. So I think, at least in my personal experience, most pastors are very good at being able to focus on, there’s one from the pastor of our church when I was in high school, and I just had a recent conversation with him too.

But man, he is so single target focused on whoever’s in front of

Like another person will walk by, he won’t even look.

100%, which does a couple things. for him he is keeping himself

On whoever he is [00:13:00] conversing

Joy Hunt: Right.

Wes Woodhouse: He’s telling them

You are important to me in general and specifically in this moment. And then he is telling everybody else by not even, looking and opening up that avenue for distraction that, Hey, I am right here, right now. if you need to talk to me, likely we’ll be done in a couple

Whatever it is, but not right now because I am talking to this person. And I think that’s a really good way. it’s a very intense, type of conversation, you never have a question on whether he’s paying attention to you and that, that’s what it comes down to. it’s paying attention.

Attention as a Gift in Relationships

Spending my attention to you right now, joy, just like you are to me, just like the audience is to us. and we are to the audience. a transaction. I’m giving my attention to this conversation. You’re giving your attention to this conversation, and so is the audience. and so just the physical posture of that too, I think is a very big deal.

Joy Hunt: Well, and use the [00:14:00] word giving, it’s our attention is a gift.

Wes Woodhouse: Yeah.

Joy Hunt: It’s a gift that we can give to our family. It’s a gift that we give as part of the work we do for God. It’s a gift to that person that you’re talking to and focused in that conversation, and

Wes Woodhouse: You’re right. And I think, so you cage the question, pastors, ministry leaders, everybody who has a family and really everybody, We’re all ministry leaders, you know, even if it’s the ministry of my family

Joy Hunt: Right.

Wes Woodhouse: children, my, for me, my wife, and then my children. And so with the kids, am I spending my attention on

Or am I distracting myself and I’m not the greatest at this is something that I need to improve on. yeah, I mean, again, ~~it,~~ there’s many distractions. I ~~get~~ come home from work, I’m tired, I just wanna sit on the couch and, you know, whatever. but they are watching, we all know kids are amazing at taking in [00:15:00] information turning around and having that exact same behavior. so making sure that you’re thinking about, Hey, lessons am I teaching my kids, or my spouse or my friends, or whoever it is ~~that,~~ that you’re with, my small group, whatever. The Congress of my church by just the way that I am presenting my attention to them or to the people around them. Big deal.

Setting Boundaries for Attention in Ministry

Joy Hunt: Yeah. And can I say like, might ruffle some feathers to your pastors. You don’t have to be ~~on call, everybody~~ on call all the time. You don’t have to read every text message the moment it comes in, you know? especially if you have a team. So I’ve seen some teams do this well where they have a rotation of who’s on call.

And, make some fancy technology to make that logistically happen.

When you’re in a meeting, it’s okay to have your phone off and be fully present in the meeting when you’re with your kids. It’s okay to be, when you’re doing your sermon prep. it’s okay to be, I’m turning off [00:16:00] everything from the outside, you know, my spouse knows if the house is on fire to come knock on the door.

Right.

Wes Woodhouse: Yeah.

Joy Hunt: You know, but they know what I’m working on. And then there’ll be times where you can come back and check in. ~~but~~ you don’t have to be available to everybody all the time.

Wes Woodhouse: right.

Joy Hunt: are, not available to anybody completely at that time.

Wes Woodhouse: Yeah, that’s very true.

Joy Hunt: And you’re not gonna be putting out your best work. You’re not gonna be having your best quality time with God, which is the foundation of what we’re doing.

Wes Woodhouse: Yep.

Family vs. Ministry: Making the Right Choice

Joy Hunt: your family’s gonna get shortchange, you know, all of this things. Chris Soton, who is a coach for pastors. He always has this, like, if you have to choose, don’t cheat your family, cheat the church.

~~’cause at the end of the day, you’re family. That’s who,~~ that is the first ministry that God gave you.

Wes Woodhouse: Yes.

Joy Hunt: and you’re not gonna be able to serve the church well if things are falling apart at home anyways.

Wes Woodhouse: Yes, exactly.

Joy Hunt: Yeah.

Wes Woodhouse: That’s

advice.

Building Communities that Foster Attention to What Matters

Joy Hunt: Well, I’ve really, enjoyed this conversation. And so I just wanna, before we close out, I wanted to ask how can believers create communities [00:17:00] that will foster better attention and focus on what truly matters?

Wes Woodhouse: My answer to that. I think if you are, there’s a lot of different places where this message will come from too. But it is, you have to be willing to cut people out who are not benefiting you or themselves behavior, and be tactful about it, obviously.

And if it’s family, that adds an additional depth of complication. And if you see them as a ministry, then that also is a different level of complexity. But, in many scenarios, a choice to be hanging out with those types of people. If you need to slowly reset who you’re spending time with, who your community is, who you are being influenced by. ‘Cause in a lot of ways, you can go into a community relationship and say, I’m gonna be a great [00:18:00] positive influence on them just by spending time with them.

When I think the reality is in more cases than not, especially if it’s a group, you are gonna assimilate to the group much more than that group is going to assimilate to any individual, yourself included. A lot of that I think is a choice. You have to first off, know what your values are, and know what you want in the people that you’re spending significant time with. Then, once you know that, you can start to evaluate which groups of people or which individuals are in line with those values.

Learning from Jesus: Balancing Outreach and Recharging

But at the end of the day, when you look at Christ’s ministry on earth, everybody’s calling him out. They’re asking why are you hanging out with the tax collectors and the dregs of society, essentially? And going over to their houses for dinner? You know, all of that. and even the disciples themselves sometimes were kind of surprised at the choices that Jesus made. You know, all of [00:19:00] those people were people who, if you ask Jesus what he values, they don’t value that. So he is spending time with them.

And there is definitely a time to do that as far as outreach. then there’s countless times in the gospels where Jesus took his disciples to a secluded place. Or he took himself to a secluded place. He recharged by spending time with the disciples, who did value what he valued and wanted to value what he valued. So it is kind of a, it’s, I wouldn’t even call it balance thing, because it’s probably gonna be different for everybody and different for the specific scenario. But, a way to think about it would be what groups of people you filling up your cup and renewing.

Those are the ones that you need to pay specific attention to, and maybe there’s some people who don’t have those reservations. [00:20:00] They can put energy and attention into them and hope to influence them by your walk.

And then by what you’re saying. So

Distinguishing Between Ministry and Relationships

Joy Hunt: Yeah.

Wes Woodhouse: I think that’s how I would think about, surrounding yourselves with the intentional people,

Joy Hunt: Yeah. For those of us that are in vocational ministry, the distinction gets really fuzzy. But there’s a difference, like with a doctor between their patients that they’re serving—

Wes Woodhouse: right?

Joy Hunt: and their friends that they’re hanging out with.

You know, for those of us who work in the church, the lines are a lot more blurred. Still, who we’re hanging out with when we’re replenishing—

Wes Woodhouse: right.

Joy Hunt: versus I’m meeting with this person because I’m investing in them. That’s different. You’re wearing a different hat. And you’re approaching it with a different kind of goal and a different aim in mind. You’re not spending all your time on one or the other, either.

The Necessity of Recharging in Ministry

Wes Woodhouse: And I think that brings up a point too, kind. Kinda like what I, [00:21:00] the example I gave in the gospels of Yeah. Christ took time from

To go just be with his disciples and to recharge. And a lot of times that happened to be just in a boat in the middle of the Sea of

Joy Hunt: Right?

Wes Woodhouse: That’s the only way they could actually build some space. It’s okay. And it is a must to take that time. To recharge your batteries and to spend time with people who fill you up. With people who are supportive and whom you don’t need to have your game face on all the time. I’ve seen that plenty of times before in all different types of ministries, pastors included. They will get burned out because they’re just 100% ministry mode.

And that’s not sustainable for any human to include Jesus Christ, who is also 100% God.

Joy Hunt: Right.

Wes Woodhouse: So that is a necessity that needs to happen. What you said, you know, if you have to choose between the church and your family, choose your family. And I think that’s why I have [00:22:00] faith, family fitness, fitness being, you know, mental, physical, spiritual, although a lot of that is covered in the faith section. But my own personal fitness, and ability to then attack the day, if you will. So I think is also important. Do you continually sacrifice your own wellbeing and your own ability? Recharge your batteries by spending time with people that recharge your batteries. Or take time by yourself, if that’s what it looks like, then you gotta do it.

You’re not gonna be bringing your best to your ministry if you’re not doing that,

Learning from Jesus’s Example of Balance

Joy Hunt: Yeah, Jesus was God, but part of his mission was to teach us how to live.

Wes Woodhouse: right?

Joy Hunt: Part of how he taught us how to live and how to minister was out with the crowds, and some of it was home alone or with your buddies, or going off by myself.

Wes Woodhouse: Yep.

Creating Intentional Cell Phone-Free Environments

Joy Hunt: Yeah. So something else too, I think with fostering those communities is I think being [00:23:00] open about the fact that you are intentionally trying to work on this area too.

You know, whether that looks like, I used to lead a girls club and middle school girls and we would collect the cell phones on the way in.

It’s not that they couldn’t see them. They were sitting right there. But for us as a group, and us leaders would put ours in there too. You know, because we are saying you guys and Jesus are more important than the phone and the social media and whatever else could come up.

Or, you know, maybe it’s like, Hey, I’m, you know, I’m sitting down for dinner with somebody and hey, I’m gonna put this on do not disturb.

Or whatever that looks like. But being a little bit open in your process sometimes will encourage somebody else and you’re not telling them what to do unless it’s in your house and then you tell them whatever, ’cause it’s your house.

Wes Woodhouse: Right,

Joy Hunt: But you don’t have to tell them what to do. Just being open about, “Hey, I’m trying to make this more of a priority. Can you help me with that?”

Wes Woodhouse: right.

Joy Hunt: Hey, can you ask me this question, so that I know, so that I kind of refocus if I drift off or if you catch me doing this, can you please let me know?

[00:24:00] Right. That, you know, iron sharpens iron. but it also makes it kind of a safe place for people to work through that process of trying to get better at

Wes Woodhouse: Right.

Joy Hunt: and attention and being with the people that you’re with.

Wes Woodhouse: The solid reasoning for why.

Be sure that you reiterate that reason because that’s what will eventually sink in and hopefully translate to, you know, maybe those ladies in other portions of their lives were like, “hey, let’s all just throw our cell phones aside because we wanna make sure that we’re spending more of our attention on each other instead of on being distracted,” or whatever else it is.

Conclusion and Resources

Joy Hunt: Well, as we wrap up now, where can our listeners connect with you online and learn more about your work and addressing the attention gap and all the stuff that you’re doing?

Wes Woodhouse: Big one would be the website: weswoodhouse.com is the best. I’m, semi-active on LinkedIn as well.

Joy Hunt: Awesome.

Wes Woodhouse: Probably the best.

Joy Hunt: Awesome. And I’ll drop that in the show notes for our listeners as well. So thank you so much for your time [00:25:00] in this conversation. I really enjoyed it. I love to nerd out on this stuff, as you could probably tell.

Wes Woodhouse: yeah, it’s a great subject.

Joy Hunt: Yeah.

Wes Woodhouse: thank you for having me, joy. It was a pleasure.

Joy Hunt: Thank you for listening to today’s show. I’d love to know what you think about it. You can leave a comment on the show notes at pastorsandmoney.com/podcast, or email me at joy@pastorsandmoney.com. If you enjoyed the show, please subscribe, share, and leave a review. This helps us to get the word out and invite more people into these conversations.

If you’d like to connect, you can find me on Instagram or Facebook. @PastorsandMoney. I can’t wait to talk again soon.