Nikevia Thomas:

Hello, everybody. This is Nikevia…

Jessica Webster:

…and Jessica…

Nikevia Thomas:

…from MAEC’s CAFE, and you’re listening to The Corner CAFE Podcast.

Families, schools and communities in Maryland and Pennsylvania are looking for strategies to increase family engagement. On this show, we sit down with family engagement experts to discuss the ideas, best practices, and strategies that they use so that the rest of us can do the same. So, let’s get started.

Jessica Webster:

Welcome back, everybody. In today’s episode, we are joined by Rene Averitt-Sanzone. Rene is the Executive Director at The Parents’ Place of Maryland, and has been since 2017. Before that, she worked as the regional technical assistance co-director for the OSEP funded parent centers in the mid-south region. She has worn many hats in the field of special education, as a parent educator, an early childhood behavior specialist, an evaluator, and a charter school administrator. She currently serves on several national and statewide disability committees and advisory groups. Rene has an undergraduate degree in Psychology and a Master’s in Organizational Change Management. Rene is also the proud parent of two grown daughters, both who have disabilities, and she is an even prouder Mimi of two grandsons. So Rene, thank you so much for joining us today.

Rene Averitt-Sanzone:

Oh, thank you for having me. I’m super excited.

Nikevia Thomas:

Thank you, thank you, thank you. I second what Jessica said, Rene. Let’s just jump right in. Rene, can you tell us, what is The Parents’ Place of Maryland, and can you talk a little bit about the work you all do?

Rene Averitt-Sanzone:

Absolutely. My second favorite thing to talk about besides my grandchildren. So The Parents’ Place of Maryland, the official designation is we are Maryland Special Education and Health Information Center. But what does that actually mean? Is that we serve families who have children with disabilities and special healthcare needs, birth to 26. So anytime a family has a question about anything remotely concerned about their child’s development, any concerns they’re having with school, their health, they’re just not sure, they call us and we answer their questions and we help them to become their child’s best advocate. Because we operate from a place here at The Parents’ Place of Maryland that the parent is the expert on their child, it’s just our job to help them get there and learn all the lingo and the terms and what’s evidence-based practices and what’s research and all things related to special education, early intervention, and healthcare.

Jessica Webster:

Which is so important because all three of those buckets have such complex terminology, different rules and regulations that follow among them, and the transition between each can be very complicated, I imagine.

Rene Averitt-Sanzone:

Oh, extremely complicated and stressful.

Jessica Webster:

And stressful. Yeah. So talk to us a little bit, tell us what brought you to do this work.

Rene Averitt-Sanzone:

Yeah, so as you read in my introduction, I am a mom. So I always, whenever I am in meetings with professionals, a lot of times there’s lots of initials behind their names, and I always go, I hold a degree in M-O-M, and they stop for a second because they kind of go, “Masters of…” Before they realize. So yeah, that’s what brought me to this work. My daughter, oldest daughter, won’t tell you how old she is, it started when we got a diagnosis at six months, so started then. And then four years later, had her sister, and same disability, so I stayed on this journey for a really, really, really super long time.

And then when my youngest daughter made me a Mimi, about the time my oldest grandson was about one and a half, Mimi went, “Mm, think something might be going on here.” And so actually my oldest grandson also has a significant speech language delay so I am now navigating helping to support my daughter as she navigates the system in a different state as well. So gone back to my roots of being a parent educator, which is how I started getting paid to do this work, I should say.

Jessica Webster:

That’s right.

Nikevia Thomas:

Wow.

Jessica Webster:

Oh, that’s amazing.

Nikevia Thomas:

That’s a great story, Rene, of how you got there. And when you were speaking about your grandson and you started to say, “Mm, mm, mm,” it was like an early detection or early intervention.

Rene Averitt-Sanzone:

Yes.

Nikevia Thomas:

Can you talk to us about those terms? Can you unpack them for us? So early intervention and family health, and what does that all include?

Rene Averitt-Sanzone:

Yeah, absolutely. No, great question. So early intervention is officially defined in the federal special education law, and it’s also defined in Maryland in what we call COMAR. And basically early intervention is a set of services and supports for children that are eligible birth to three. Maryland, we do something a little different, we also do what’s called an Extended Individualized Family Service Plan. But the beauty of early intervention for our littles, birth to three, is it’s really the only time in the special education process that it is all about the child and the family. And it is lovely, it’s absolutely lovely. When I left early intervention both times I cried, because all of a sudden I was going to be shifting away from the family focus to just the individual child focus with those pieces. And so it’s just really done in a way that’s just natural environments and nice and just warm and cozy, which is a beautiful way to start to learn the process for families. So that’s a little bit about early intervention.

Family health, for us, how we do family health, or family health information, is the same struggles and challenges that families have understanding special education, including early intervention, are the same challenges families have when they have a child with a special healthcare need. Understanding, “Okay, wait a minute, I need a piece of equipment, but insurance has denied me,” or “I have medical assistance, and what does that mean? And how do I apply if I have a child who’s really complex? Or what if I have a little itty-bitty that was born premature and they’re in the PICU or the NICU?” So we really help families as they journey through all of that from early, all the way through transitioning into adulthood.

Jessica Webster:

Wow. And talk to us a little bit, so you had mentioned like with your grandson, that sense that, “Oh, there’s something else here that we need some support on.” How do families, if they have that feeling, or they’re seeing some developmental markers, how do you get into earlier intervention or that family health support?

Rene Averitt-Sanzone:

Well, every state has a slightly different entry process. In Maryland, we’re really fortunate because Maryland has an online referral system, which makes it great –

Nikevia Thomas:

Nice.

Rene Averitt-Sanzone:

– because families can simply refer themselves into, and this is a shameless plug, but if families aren’t sure how to do it, they can go to our YouTube channel on our website, and we actually have a little tutorial that walks families through how to do it themselves. Families, a lot of times, will also talk to their doctor or their pediatrician is one way. But the other way, which is our preference, is that our wish is always that families find us first. So when they find us first, we can immediately start getting in there and validating a family’s concern. And when we talk about family, we talk about family in the broad sense, so it’s mom, dad, grandma, aunt, uncle, two moms, two dads, older siblings, kinship formed, adoptive, foster. Any way you could think to define family is what family means to us. But really what a family and a parent wants is to be heard and validated.

Jessica Webster:

Absolutely.

Rene Averitt-Sanzone:

And I’ve yet, in my 30 plus years of doing this work, a, we always call it a mama gut, but that parent gut is very rarely, if ever, wrong. So that’s why we always like them to get to us first so we can really go, “Okay, you are right, what you’re feeling. Now, this is what you can do.” And really helping families walk through the whole process with that. And there is one of us in every single state, so we’re all charged to do the exact same work and to serve the same age group, so we’re all charged to do the exact same work.

Nikevia Thomas:

That’s wonderful. We know that entering special education services and programming can be very intimidating to families, so what would you recommend schools do to support families new to the process?

Rene Averitt-Sanzone:

My first answer always is have the schools send them to us, because we are a private nonprofit that is outside of the school system. And so our role as a parent center is that we really don’t tell families what to do, because we’re not walking a mile in their shoes. So even though I’m a parent, I’m a Mimi, everyone on my team is a parent as well, or has a close family member, so we all have this lived experience. But that doesn’t mean we’re walking a mile in that family’s shoes, exactly in their shoes. So we know what it means to be in the IEP meeting and to first start out, but our children all may be different, different looks, different languages, different everything. So when families come to us, what they’re going to get is really family-friendly, factual information that is unbiased. It’s based on evidence, it’s based on research, it’s based on policies and procedures. So we’re really giving families the information and the tools to say, okay, now this is your decision to make, and here are your choices and options to make it.

And we also have the time to go, okay, what does IEP stand for and what does it actually mean? And what do the different components of an IEP mean? And what does an evaluation mean? And what does a WISC mean? And what does the Wechsler Scale of Intelligence mean? And so we have the time to really go through all of that with them that a lot of times our school folks just don’t have time to do. They want to, they wish they did, and so that’s the piece that we can help break that down because if we can get in there earlier, then what we’re doing is to help to build that bridge of communication, partnership and collaboration, because that’s really what is the most important thing to us at The Parents’ Place of Maryland, is how your kiddo is going to be in that school for a really long time, so let’s build those relationships. But making sure that you’re an informed, effective, and empowered parent as well.

Jessica Webster:

I think it’s interesting because I used to be a special education teacher and a principal, and it was interesting to me, you have families who have a great experience with the school and they go through the process, but the minute there is a moment of tension, if you don’t have that foundation of actually understanding, they don’t necessarily know the process because they’ve just trusted it along the way. And it wasn’t that somebody did something bad, it was just that they had a misunderstanding or didn’t quite understand that because I’ve requested these things and I’ve gotten them all the time, then all of a sudden there’s a time where the school’s like, “Oh, wait, we don’t want to do it that way,” or, “We use this curriculum instead,” not understanding where your rights and responsibilities are because it’s just always worked.

So it’s not even that it has to be a place of there’s an issue. But if you understand from the beginning, these are the processes and the procedures that I’m empowered as I go through to understand. And if there is a time that there’s a disagreement, because there probably will be, at some point along the way. Or in that transition between developmental stages, how it looks in one level might look different at a different level. So thinking about that and thinking about, to your point of you come into this system, there’s all kinds of acronyms, then the acronyms change again, from early intervention into regular K through 12, or 12 plus schooling. I feel like it’s just the whole process can feel so intimidating. How do you recommend, or what’s a great way even, to get parents to understand their rights and responsibilities and be prepped for what those meetings are going to look like?

Rene Averitt-Sanzone:

Right, exactly. So for us, it’s working with us. So all of our families who work with us come back and go, when they work with us, “Oh, that’s what that means,” because what we do with families, is we help them to prep for an IEP meeting, or wait a minute, what does the data say? So we help families to understand that these decisions really need to be data-driven decisions. Is your child making progress? If your child’s not making progress, why is your child not making progress? What does that look like? What can we do? What have we tried? What can we try?

But also like, okay, so sometimes a family may say, “Well, I really want X,” and what they’re going to get from our organization is, you are absolutely entitled to ask for X, but we’re going to tell you, “This is what the law says. We’re not interpreting the law. This is what the law says. Think about this,” or, “Have you thought about this instead of that?” So really trying to help and coach the families with that. But one of the other pieces that we really work with families around, that I think is a very powerful tool, is one, documenting.

And it’s not documenting to do a, “Ooh, gotcha,” it’s documenting like, okay, one of our favorite phrases is when a family finishes with a meeting is sending an email, which is really nice because back in my day, we actually had to write things the old school way, is, “Thank you so much for meeting with me today, this was my understanding of the meeting.” Putting that back down in writing, “But if I’ve misunderstood anything, please let me know.” Or, “This was my understanding. We agreed to this, so forth and so on. But if I’ve misunderstood, please let me know.” And all of it, that really just keeps those lines of communication open.

And the other piece of it is we’re all just human beings, so the more we teach families how to document, how to ask for data, how to collect data, but also just how to communicate with your families and record keeping. You just got a report back from your doctor. Okay, well wait a minute, let’s share that with the IEP team so that they have all of the information, because we all really do… Sometimes families don’t feel like IEP teams or have, your child is at the forefront. They really do, it’s just that we have to make sure that we’re just really keeping those lines of communication open all the way around.

And one of the other pieces we do besides teaching families how to document, record keep, is also asking questions in a way that get at understanding learning and discovery. “Help me understand. I’m not following. Can you help me understand?” Or, “I’m really having a hard time understanding. Can I please see where that’s in writing so I can read through it?” Some people are readers. But there’s also sometimes incidences that, “Well, we’ve always done it this way,” and so sometimes when we look at something in writing, we go, “Oh, we don’t have to do it this way.” Actually, it’s not there. We actually do have the flexibility, the creativity, and the individuality to do some very creative things for the student.

Jessica Webster:

Yeah, because there’s a layer between, I think as you’re talking, I keep thinking about there’s the layer between the individualized piece that is there for students, then there by their rights and responsibilities, in a program. So there’s that tension, natural tension, and then you add onto that, I think, the onus or the stress or the tension around the paperwork, that I used to get frustrated because the paperwork is actually getting in the way of the conversation instead of being a great way to facilitate the conversation. Because we get so worried about compliance, for very important reasons, I’m not saying, those things are important too, but keeping that in order for it all to function, the relationship and the student have to be at the center of that. Not, “Oh my gosh, we have to get it in by then.” You got to do it by those dates too, I’m not saying that, but the burden then doesn’t become, “Did I cross all the T’s and dot all the I’s?” It becomes, “Are we doing what’s best for the student?”

Rene Averitt-Sanzone:

Exactly. And that’s what we try to explain to families is that families get overwhelmed by the paperwork too, and the lingo and all of those pieces.

Jessica Webster:

So much.

Rene Averitt-Sanzone:

But unfortunately, it is a law with a lot of legalities. And it’s like I always like to say to families, the law says a free and appropriate public education, nobody quibbles over free, the definition of free, nobody quibbles over the word public, and nobody quibbles over the word education.

Jessica Webster:

Appropriate. What’s appropriate?

Rene Averitt-Sanzone:

But everybody quibbles over the word of appropriate.

Jessica Webster:

That’s it.

Rene Averitt-Sanzone:

And there’s just lots of gray in there. And can I tell you that every single IEP that both of my daughters had and my grandson has was done a hundred percent? No. But at the end of the day, because we had that great relationship, and I’m not saying we didn’t have bumps too, I don’t want to paint some rosy picture, but it really is about, “Okay, wait a minute, let’s stop back up. Okay, all right. Okay, so how can we support the IEP team with the paperwork and the compliance, but at the same time making sure that the needs of your child are getting met, or your young adult is getting met?” Absolutely.

Jessica Webster:

And so I see the healthy way to do that is with those questioning techniques. If we can teach families how to do that in a way. And professionals, for that matter. How to do that in a way, what a powerful shift that then becomes into –

Rene Averitt-Sanzone:

Absolutely.

Jessica Webster:

– we’re doing this for clarification, for the end goal still staying on the child, and the [inaudible 00:20:51] child.

Rene Averitt-Sanzone:

Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. I love it. I like it as it is, we’re doing this together, not apart.

Nikevia Thomas:

Lovely family engagement.

Rene Averitt-Sanzone:

Yes.

Nikevia Thomas:

Yes, yes, yes. So speaking of that, how does family engagement affect children with disabilities in school? And what have you found families of children with disabilities are looking for in terms of engagement from their schools?

Rene Averitt-Sanzone:

So I think the most heartbreaking piece of having a child with a disability is that a lot of times, as a family, you become incredibly isolated in the school community. “Oh, those kids go to that classroom,” instead of looking at it is that it’s an inclusive community, because families who have children with disabilities and special healthcare needs, we want to be part of the community. As parents, we want to see children that don’t look like us, so our kids are getting this really world view of the world and all walks of life. And then the reality is, I can’t remember who said this, somebody way smarter than myself, it’s not if you have a disability, it’s when you have a disability.

Jessica Webster:

When. That’s right.

Rene Averitt-Sanzone:

Yes. A major life event can happen, not that we ever want it, but a child could end up in a car accident and have a traumatic brain injury. There could be something, surgery, something happens, or even as an adult. You have loved ones, they have a stroke, a car accident. So disability is just, it’s natural, it’s part of that piece. And we all want to be part of it, but there ends up being just this real isolation and so we’re really not engaged in these pieces. So what people will see is family fun nights or PTA or PTO. There really isn’t this thought about including our children and including our families. Parent-teacher conference, right? All of a sudden there becomes all of these segregations all the way around, and then when you don’t feel that you belong, how do you form relationships? And then when you don’t feel that you belong, then you feel lonely. When you feel lonely, do you really want to have a partnership with the school? And that’s the piece that is just so, so, so, so incredibly hard about all of it.

Jessica Webster:

And I’ve heard some of my friends talk a little bit about as their children age too, how it’s so much easier in many ways to include students in your classroom and your social networks in elementary school. But then as kids pair off and some of those developmental levels change and it becomes less of organic peer relationships that they have as well, so you’re dealing with your own potential loneliness and disconnection and potentially watching your child also see that disconnect and loneliness as well. And I’ve had some friends that have really struggled with that experience as well as their children get up, and so thinking about that from a school piece, do you have some suggestions for how schools can think about it more in a universally designed way or encourage that?

Rene Averitt-Sanzone:

Yes, the short answer is always yes. The longer answer is that, and again, I am a huge proponent of advocating for teachers, because I firmly believe that we are sadly not supporting our teachers in the classroom as well as we could for lots of reasons. And so one of the things that I see from a universal perspective is does the building leadership really set a tone and a culture in that school building that all means all?

Jessica Webster:

All means all.

Rene Averitt-Sanzone:

And so many times people are like, “All children,” and then you look at the fine print and you go, “Oh, really? So how are we going to get Johnny to the swim meet when he’s got to come through the cafeteria?” And I’m not saying, building is obviously one piece, and I do understand the constraints of building construction and all that stuff, but there is so much of, are we really creating a culture that all means all? And that has to go from the leadership all the way down.

And then from there, are we really giving our teachers the time to intentionally look for those opportunities of how do we create our classrooms that are inclusive? To your point, Jessica, it doesn’t have to get harder the older our kids get, but it can feel harder. So what does the schedule look like? Are we giving teachers time to plan together? Are we really working with families to hear what families want and need and want to act? Someone that I admire and respect immensely, her work is just absolutely pivotal in the field of early intervention, but it’s also the issue of reciprocity, is are we valuing what we’re letting families give us? So there has to also be that mutual piece of and authentically listening to families as part of creating that culture, and what does that look like? And authentic family engagement, it means engaging families of all colors and all languages, and that that all looks really different, but we also just need to give folks the time to do it, and that butts up against master schedules and bus times and –

Jessica Webster:

But it also has to be outside of just the IEP, right?

Rene Averitt-Sanzone:

Yes.

Jessica Webster:

Because what you want for your individual child, but then also, again, going back to but then there’s still the larger program, and there’s still the larger message, and there’s still PTA meetings and PTO meetings and things that we have when we talk about bringing in speakers that parents are learning about, or math curriculum and how are we designing those in ways that they’re accessible for all families, and all families feel like they’re talking to me.

Rene Averitt-Sanzone:

Yes. Right, exactly.

Jessica Webster:

Because this is for me too, my child might have a disability, but I also need to know this information. Or how you do a math night and you think, okay, but how am I doing this with my kid, potentially? And so designing it from the ground up, thinking about how do we make it accessible for everybody and make it clear that we expect it really does mean all? I think that’s super important.

Rene Averitt-Sanzone:

It is. And so when I talk about that culture, everything I just shared had nothing to do with the IEP meeting.

Jessica Webster:

That’s right.

Rene Averitt-Sanzone:

And I think one of the other barriers to family engagement, again, very well intended, I always do say this, I am married to a teacher, so I am always quick to quantify this statement, but also one of the real big issues is also around is, well, we did a family math night and families didn’t show up, so therefore they just don’t want to be engaged. Well, could we reframe the question and go, okay, what about the family? Talk to the families. What about that family math night didn’t work for you? It’s not an attack, it is simply collecting data and reframing the question of how can we learn and do better?

Jessica Webster:

You take the data point, but then you keep unpacking the data point. You don’t stop with the data point to say, “I’m going to make assumptions based on what that data point is,” and maybe it isn’t what you needed. Maybe what you need is something different from a family night. I would like to see a family night on this, this is something I would be able to change my schedule around, or I really would’ve tuned in if it was online, or if I could have a recording of it, I’ll watch it on my free. I’ll watch it, it’s like what you said about the YouTube video with the tutorial, how are we making it accessible for people in different ways? Which does take more time and creativity, but that’s the society we are in. There’s a lot of barriers that we need to overcome.

Rene Averitt-Sanzone:

Well, and then to continue to play out your point there, Jessica, beautifully, is, and when you have that conversation with that family and they say, “Oh, this is what,” and then the school, “Oh, okay, we can do that.” And then the parent says, “You know what?” They wouldn’t say it this way, but, “Because you’re hearing me, I will help you organize it.” The families that are in my group, I will make sure that they understand and they hear, and I’ll help get them there, how whatever that looks like.

Jessica Webster:

Because you start building those cultural bridges between groups to say, “Oh, that wasn’t my experience. My experience with the school has been this, and this person has been really helpful and they’ve always listened. We may not end up agreeing in the end, but I’ve always felt listened to and heard and valued for my opinion and what I have to say,” rather than excuses. Yeah, that’s a good point.

Nikevia Thomas:

Really goes back to relationships.

Jessica Webster:

Relationships.

Rene Averitt-Sanzone:

Yes, yes, yes.

Nikevia Thomas:

Yes. Keep them brewing. So Rene, what do you say are some best practices for supporting families in special education during transitional periods through effective programming?

Rene Averitt-Sanzone:

It really is the simple as one, we always meet families where they are. Different families are at different places in their journey and in this process, and a lot of listening. Just because transition is hard, transition is scary, so meeting them where they’re at, listening, validating that their fears, their concerns, everything they are feeling is 100% normal. Empathy. Again, just because I may not have a child with the exact same disability, when I transitioned from early intervention to preschool, it was scary and new lingo. And then preschool to kindergarten, new lingo. Elementary to middle, new lingo. Middle to high school, new lingo, new everything, new players, new everything. And so when we build that trust and when we build that relationship, that’s how we then begin to give families the information they need at that particular point in time. So we have some families that are like, “Open up the fire hose, give it to me all,” and then we have some families that are like, “Can I just have a one-pager – ”

Jessica Webster:

Bite-sized.

Rene Averitt-Sanzone:

” – with an acronym alphabet on it?” Okay, great. Or we have some families like, “Okay, have you sent an email?” “Oh, shoot. No.” “Okay, great.” So that family sends the email. But I have another family, you talk about sending an email and they’re like, “Well, I’m not sure. I’m not how to write that email.” And so you may say, “Okay, well, what are your main points?” So then you start to help them craft it. Then we have some families where English is not their first language, or maybe literacy is an issue, so we may say, “Well, I’ll tell you what, why don’t you draft an email?” Because we’re all about families doing it themselves. Because we don’t do it for them. By the pure definition of an advocate, an advocate speaks for someone. We are not speaking for that parent. That doesn’t help the situation because they can’t take us home with them.

And sometimes we may say, “Well, how about if you draft an email, send it to us, and we’ll help you work through that email.” And then there might be some times that sometimes we actually have to actually draft the first email. They use it as a template. And one of the other things we do for our families, because it’s hard to write some of these letters, so again, another shameless plug, on our website, we have lots of sample letters that families can just grab, put in, we’ll say, “Okay, let’s help you find the name of the person this needs to be addressed to, your child’s name, the date,” and the letters all ready. There’s a template form so that we can make it easy for them to be able to do that as well.

And then the other piece we do at Parents’ Place, we’re really super fortunate, is that we can provide the services in Spanish, which is a whole ‘nother issue of family engagement. We also do Haitian Creole. And then any other language somebody needs, then we’re always accessing the language line, because we do have some families that’ll speak another language, English is not their first language, and they’re like, “Oh, no, I’m good.” So because we’ll say, they’ll tell us their language and we’re like, “Okay, would you like us to get an interpreter?” “No, I’ve got it. I’ve got it.” Well, when you start talking about American education terms –

Jessica Webster:

Yes. The interpreter would be helpful.

Rene Averitt-Sanzone:

– then all of a sudden… We’re always very culturally competent to say, “Okay, at any time, it would be easier for this to be in your own language and for us to have these conversations, please just let us know.” But again, we have the time to whatever it is. But that’s how we try to support families through these transitions. And again, we let families set that pace, with that piece with that, but also recognizing some families just get to a place that, you know what? Right now I can’t do anything, and we honor that too. And we’re not going anywhere. We’re here when you need us.

Jessica Webster:

That’s a great tip though, I’m thinking, because when you think about speaking another language, there’s the informal everyday transactional language that you might be very well versed in. But then when you shift to the more academic language, that then could be a barrier and that’s a good tip for schools, I think, to think about too. If a parent seems, oh, well, they seem very confident in their English, but then when it shifts to these more complex academic-y kind of things, it might be much harder for them.

Rene Averitt-Sanzone:

And legal as well. Because there’s a reason that the special education law is not translated into any other language. It’s just in English.

Jessica Webster:

And I think I was talking to someone, we were talking about this, and they were saying even the translation also helps with the cultural shift in the language so that a direct translation, if the words don’t translate directly, then there’s also the cultural, the awareness around words, like how another culture takes a word, especially around the mental health services. And disability and mental health can be huge stigmas for you depending on what culture you’re coming from, which can also impede your trust, willingness to get support, all of those things in a different way.

Rene Averitt-Sanzone:

Yeah. One of my team members who is bicultural, bilingual, she uses this example, and it’s just because I don’t unfortunately speak another language, I wish I did, is in English, when we talk about transition, particularly transition, for us, English, for us, transition means a change, at the pure it’s simple. So transition and then transition through special education, or transition in health, from pediatric to adult. So it’s always a change to something, right? Well, in Spanish, it just means left to right. I mean I’m oversimplifying.

Jessica Webster:

Interesting.

Rene Averitt-Sanzone:

So when an IEP team says to a family, “Oh, do you want help with transition?” The family’s like, “No, I don’t want to help from moving from left to right,” which is another thing that’s really important to family engagement, again, we have the time to explain. To your point, Jessica, transition, yes, it means from left to right, but it also means in this context a change to a different system, a change to a different program, a change to something else. And really what does all of that mean? And I think there’s one of those, what is it? In English, love has one definition, but in other languages it has multiple, depending on the language. And again, I’m oversimplifying the beauty of other languages, but I think you all get my point. So with folks that are listening to this and speak other language, please give me a little bit of grace.

Nikevia Thomas:

Of course.

Jessica Webster:

It is fascinating though.

Rene Averitt-Sanzone:

Yeah, very.

Nikevia Thomas:

So does Parents’ Place foster partnership with community organizations in healthcare to support families?

Rene Averitt-Sanzone:

Oh my gosh, yes. We couldn’t do this work without partners. We absolutely positively could not do this. So one of our biggest partners, we’d be lost, is the Maryland Chapter of the American Academy of Pediatrics. That’s one of our biggest partners in this healthcare field. So we partner with community partners, we partner with state agencies, we partner with other grassroots groups. This work can’t be done without partnerships and collaborations, absolutely cannot be. Yeah, we’d be lost if we didn’t have that.

Nikevia Thomas:

Yeah. I would think that that would be very true.

Jessica Webster:

You guys also do a ton of training.

Rene Averitt-Sanzone:

Yes.

Jessica Webster:

So talk to us about what topics and trainings you have found to be most beneficial for families in the work that you’ve done and how you know that to be true.

Rene Averitt-Sanzone:

So the most ‘popular,’ I’m using air quotes, this is so funny to use air quotes on a podcast. Sorry. For those of you that are listening, Jessica and Nikevia will tell you, I’m moving my hands around like you all can see me. So for us, the most popular training we have is IEP basics, so Individualized Education Program basics, how to prepare for an IEP team meeting. So those pieces around that. And then the other piece that is also very popular is behavior, because we have kids with lots of social emotional issues and behaviors and challenges that are just significant and ongoing and unfortunately only got worse through COVID and after COVID. Those are our most popular.

And how we know it is, one, training, number of training requests, attendance at our training events, and then also we evaluate everything that we do. So every training that we do, we do an evaluation, and we’re always measuring our quality, our relevance, our usefulness. We also are measuring an increase in knowledge before and after. So we evaluate everything and are always looking at our data. We also do the same thing with all of our one-on-one assistance. So we survey every single parent, family that works with us, professional that works with us as well, and we’re always serving that assistance as well. But those are probably our three most popular ones.

Jessica Webster:

Okay. And do you have resources in terms of if a school district wanted to share out resources, resources like on your web page that they could avail themselves of or refer parents to?

Rene Averitt-Sanzone:

Free. Help themselves, help themselves. So we really look at our work in a universal targeted and intensive way. So for us, our website is that universal approach. So you’re welcome to anything on our website, help yourself, download it to your heart’s content, share the links to your heart’s content. Same thing with our YouTube. Our social media is the same way. Our newsletter, we have a monthly newsletter, just sign up for it. We also do a month… I was told we just moved to monthly, so we have a monthly newsletter in Spanish as well. We have a Spanish Facebook page. We have an English Instagram, Spanish Instagram. So we really are… And some of our YouTube videos are also in Spanish, so we’re really don’t have as many as I’d like, but we’re getting there slowly but surely.

So our stuff is free to professionals, to their heart’s content. And usually what professionals tell us that they like about our stuff is, one, it’s usually easier to find stuff on our website than it is say, a state website. And also they like our stuff because we operate from a place, if it’s written in a way a family can understand it, it’s awesome for a teacher, because a teacher doesn’t need a 24-page document. We take it and we’ll create a two-pager, because we try to write everything around fifth, sixth grade level. It just makes it easier for a teacher to grab it and go and to read and to be able to digest it than weeding through something that’s 24 pages that’s written at a post-doctoral level. So we also try to approach it that way as well for teachers.

Nikevia Thomas:

Wow. Rene, you do a lot of work. You do a lot.

Rene Averitt-Sanzone:

Oh, but I love it. I love it.

Nikevia Thomas:

Yeah. You do a lot. We work with each other, so I thought, oh, I just realized now, that was just the tip of the iceberg.

Jessica Webster:

Yeah, right. That’s right.

Nikevia Thomas:

Yeah. So what is your biggest challenge that you experience in your role?

Rene Averitt-Sanzone:

Well, the slightly smart aleck answer, but it’s the truth, is funding. Funding. Yeah, funding. Our services are free to families. We have no wait list. We take everybody. No questions asked. No eligibility requirement. A lot of times folks struggle with that, like, “Oh, do you have an eligible?” No, you just got to call us. Do you collect income? Nope. Do you have immigration status? Nope, nope, nope. We don’t. Just call us. And so the demand is just a lot, and because of limited funding, we’re not able… I always say we have to be the best kept secret. Parents’ Place of Maryland has been around since 1990, so we’ve been serving families in the state for over 30 years. But there isn’t a day that goes by that a family doesn’t say to one of my parent educators who has a 14 or 15-year-old, “How come I didn’t know about you sooner?” We do the best we can do with what we have, but… So that part is a challenge as well.

And I think the other challenge that just always hurts my heart is that we aren’t getting in there earlier and sooner, that we can help to change the trajectory of relationships that go south really fast. And that’s the piece that hurts my heart. I was fortunate that when we got the diagnosis when my daughter was six months old, well, where do I go? And somebody gave me this number, and I always tell the story, I ended up calling this place. I had no idea what this place was, I was in a different state, and it was a parent educator and the parent educator was just, “Ask why. Ask for it in writing. Help me understand.” So really started me on this journey of how to ask questions. Fast-forward several years, I ended up working for her and all of those fun things. But I look back at how my journey started because I got somebody immediately and relationships didn’t go south. We had tension. We agreed to disagree.

Jessica Webster:

That’s right.

Rene Averitt-Sanzone:

But it didn’t go south. And I always attributed my daughter’s amazing success, not because of me as a mom, trust me, but because I had that person in my life. And that’s what hurts my heart, is I want to give that to every –

Jessica Webster:

Everybody.

Rene Averitt-Sanzone:

– family that wants or needs that, and we’re just not in a position to do that.

Jessica Webster:

It’s like early intervention.

Rene Averitt-Sanzone:

Yeah. Not unless you guys have figured out the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

Jessica Webster:

That’s right. Well, you’ll be the first to know. Rene, that just makes me think though, we talk about how early intervention, we know the research, how impactful it is for kids, but early intervention, proactive early intervention and relationship building for families, with families, not for, with, how that’s, what you just spoke to so eloquently, is really, that’s it. That should be the goal here. And the sooner you get in and the sooner we lay a strong foundation, then your foundation can absorb the tensions and the shifts and the many earthquakes that may occur as children develop and grow and change and all of that. Because gosh, parenting is rough. It’s not for the weak of heart here. Come on. I have a preteen and a teenager. Good god. It’s a lot.

Nikevia Thomas:

Yes. It is, it is.

Jessica Webster:

For all of us, I would say it’s like layers of an onion. Sometimes it just becomes, the complexity is there for all of us, but there are just then some extra additional layers, I would say to my parents. You have an extra layer that we just also have to take care of and name and work through together.

Rene Averitt-Sanzone:

Yeah. Absolutely.

Jessica Webster:

It’s not like all those other things aren’t there for you too that make it difficult to parent through life.

Rene Averitt-Sanzone:

Exactly, exactly.

Jessica Webster:

All right, so we have one final question for you. As we wrap up here, we want to know from your perspective, if you were to give schools any advice on how to adapt their current practices, I think we think about, oh, a big change and it’s scary and overwhelming, but if schools could do one thing, or two things, to really adapt what they’re currently doing, to be better at engaging families and empowering families as true partners at the table, where would you recommend they begin?

Rene Averitt-Sanzone:

Oh my goodness gracious. That’s a big question. I would think if leadership in a school building could really look at the gift of time. The gift of time to hear what teachers are struggling with around family engagement in their classrooms, and then the gift of time to hear what families are struggling with in a way that… Obviously it would have to be somebody that was trusted by families, but I really think we’ve lost the ability of the gift of time. We really have. And I think that when you allow someone, again, way smarter than I am, is when you give people time, that gives them time to process, time to breathe, time to reflect, and I think just also time to maybe sit in some quiet and some silence.

And I know that people probably listening to this goes, “Yeah, all right, Rene.” Our teachers are just slammed. Our kids are just slammed. Our families are just slammed. Time to hear our kids. I think that would probably be the one piece that I’d like to think that schools could do that maybe wouldn’t cost a lot of money because I do know schools are definitely, I respect that they are struggling, have budget challenges and things like that. But boy, that takes a lot of courage and a lot of time. Not to beat the word to death, but yeah.

Jessica Webster:

I think you’re right on that. Oh, thank you so much. Thank you so much for spending time with us today. It’s always such a joy.

Rene Averitt-Sanzone:

Well, thank you for having me. Yeah. You all are always two of my most favorite people to work with.

Jessica Webster:

Oh, wow.

Rene Averitt-Sanzone:

So I love it. I love it.

Jessica Webster:

It’s mutual, it’s mutual.

Rene Averitt-Sanzone:

Yes, I love it.

Nikevia Thomas:

Yes, it is.

Rene Averitt-Sanzone:

I love it. So you are so welcome. Thank you.

Jessica Webster:

Thank you. And to our listeners, thank you for sharing a cup of conversation with us. We hope you enjoyed it as much as we did. So until next time, keep those meaningful relationships with families brewing, and don’t forget to follow us on X @CAFE_MAEC.