Transform toxic cultures and pivot towards emotional health as authors Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer guide churches and institutions through a gritty and transformative process that challenges the quick-fix mentality in creating cultures of goodness.

It's gritty and messy, not flashy and glitzy. Making a difference requires deep, transformative change. - Scot McKnight

In this episode, you will be able to:

• Master the art of fostering emotionally nourishing spaces inside your church or institution.
• Explore the influence of power and its four prepositions in sparking timely institutional transformations.
• Understand the vital role of character development in shaping healthier and more efficient environments.
• Get acquainted with thoughtful strategies and dynamic tools that promise positive change within your organization.
• Comprehend the intricate process of transformation, emphasizing the importance of long-term accountability and ownership.

My special guests are Scot McKnight, Laura Barringer

Today’s conversation features Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer, a dynamic father-daughter duo. Scot’s knowledge of the Bible and theology is deeply respected, and his role as the Chair of New Testament at Northern Seminary further enhances that authority. His extensive bibliography includes favorites like “The King Jesus Gospel” and insightful commentaries on James Galatians and First Peter. Laura, an elementary school teacher by trade, has found her voice in writing. She has not only co-authored with Scot but is also making strides in public speaking. Together, their latest book, “Pivot”, explores transformative cultural change in churches and institutions.

The resources mentioned in this episode are:

It's not about the next biggest hit that we're addicted to. It's about deep work that walks through shame and does repair. - Laura Barringer

• Purchase A Church Called Tov book
• Purchase Pivot book
• Check out Dr. Scot McKnight's other books, such as The King Jesus Gospel and his commentaries on James, Galatians, and 1 Peter
• Explore the Second Testament Bible translation by Dr. Scot McKnight
• Learn more about the New Testament chair at Northern Seminary
• Consider booking Laura Barrringer for speaking engagements
• Check out the Christian Book Award finalist nomination for A Church Called Tove
• Explore the concept of Darvo mentioned in the podcast
• Learn about the three P's in Pivot: priorities, practices, and powers
• Focus on character development in churches and institutions
• Take character tests and assessments mentioned in the book
• Consider the power dynamics in your own church or organization
• Reflect on how power is used and misused
• Learn from the example of Oak Hills Church in California
• Explore Dallas Willard's ideas of transformation
• Consider reducing church size and budget to focus on transformation
• Understand the importance of empathy and care in leadership

We are delighted to have Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer joining us today. Scot is a revered figure in the world of theology, not just as the chair of New Testament at Northern Seminary, but also as an established author introducing new perspectives on the Christian faith. His latest bible translation, The Second Testament, has been positively received by the community. Laura, Scot’s daughter, is equally accomplished. An elementary school teacher by profession, Laura’s influence extends to the written word. She uses her experiences and insights in extending conversations around church culture. Their collective wisdom in faith-based discussions is mirrored in their latest collaboration, “Pivot”.

The key moments in this episode are:

00:00:02 - Introduction,

00:03:04 - Overview of "Pivot,"

00:08:59 - Organizing the Book,

00:10:41 - Addressing Darvo,

00:12:07 - Priorities,

00:16:50 - Understanding Different Types of Power,

00:18:21 - The Importance of Power in Institutions,

00:19:39 - The Role of Character in Business and Leadership,

00:22:00 - Using the Tove Tool for Assessment,

00:27:15 - Challenges in Implementing Change,

00:33:59 - Distinguishing Change, Shift, and Transformation,

00:34:36 - Building a Coalition for Transformation,

00:35:38 - The Long-Term Process of Transformation,

00:36:46 - The Complexity of Transformation,

00:40:17 - Taking Action and Making a Difference,

We need character. We need people first. Emotion is good, and it can be used for evil or good. - Scott McKnight

Timestamped summary of this episode:

00:00:02 - Introduction,

Lori Adams Brown introduces the podcast and welcomes back Scott McKnight and Laura Behringer, authors of "A Church Called Tove" and "Pivot." She discusses the impact of their previous book and the anticipation for the new release.

00:03:04 - Overview of "Pivot,"

Scott and Laura explain that "Pivot" is a response to the questions they received after "A Church Called Tove." They discuss the importance of transforming toxic cultures and how their book provides practical steps for change.

00:08:59 - Organizing the Book,

Scott and Laura discuss the challenge of organizing the book due to the interconnectedness of the chapters. They explain how they developed the priorities, practices, and powers framework for transforming toxic cultures.

00:10:41 - Addressing Darvo,

Lori brings up the concept of Darvo (deny, attack, reverse victim and offender) and its relevance to the conversation. Scott and Laura acknowledge the difficulty of navigating toxic cultures and emphasize the need for practical guidance, which their book provides.

00:12:07 - Priorities,

Scott introduces the importance of character development as a priority in transforming toxic cultures. He explains how focusing on character revolutionizes institutions that prioritize productivity and numerical growth. Laura adds that this applies beyond churches to other fields like education.

00:16:50 - Understanding Different Types of Power,

Scot McKnight discusses the different types of power and how they can impact organizations. He highlights power over, power to, power with, and power for as the four prepositions that define how power is used and how it can transform a culture.

00:18:21 - The Importance of Power in Institutions,

Scot and Laura emphasize the significance of power in institutions, such as churches and businesses. They believe that power should be used for the good of others and that institutions need to consider power as a priority in order to transform their culture.

00:19:39 - The Role of Character in Business and Leadership,

The conversation shifts to the importance of character in business and leadership. They discuss how character can make or break a business and the significance of qualities like empathy and listening in creating emotionally healthy environments.

00:22:00 - Using the Tove Tool for Assessment,

Scot and Laura introduce the Tove Tool, an assessment they developed to help organizations assess where they stand in terms of people-first culture, justice, empathy, and truth-telling. They believe that organizations should assess their strengths and weaknesses in order to work towards creating emotionally healthy cultures.

00:27:15 - Challenges in Implementing Change,

The conversation delves into the challenges faced when implementing change in organizations, particularly in churches. They discuss how decision-makers and leaders play a crucial role in initiating change, but also acknowledge the difficulty of confronting toxic patterns and the fear of retaliation.

00:33:59 - Distinguishing Change, Shift, and Transformation,

Transformation is the deepest level of change and requires time, effort, and buy-in from both top-down and bottom-up. Many churches work from the top-down, but building a coalition and fostering listening and learning is crucial for true transformation.

00:34:36 - Building a Coalition for Transformation,

Building a coalition involves engaging leaders and stakeholders in conversations to create ownership and investment. Persuasion alone won't work. It takes time to build a coalition that extends to the entire system.

00:35:38 - The Long-Term Process of Transformation,

Transformation is not a quick fix. It requires ongoing work, building small groups and expanding to larger circles, and taking the time to listen and learn from one another. Patience and commitment are essential.

00:36:46 - The Complexity of Transformation,

Transformation is not a one-size-fits-all process. It requires different approaches and strategies depending on the specific context. There is no easy solution, but with dedication and collaboration, change is possible.

00:40:17 - Taking Action and Making a Difference,

It's up to individuals and communities to take action and make a difference. Reading and discussing the book, joining communities, and acknowledging the problems in our cultures are important steps towards creating positive change.

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