A.I. is everywhere, and although it can be used as a creative tool, what’s making the headlines is how generative AI tools like midjourney and ElevenLabs ca mimc everything from fake everything from a picture of the Pope to an entire Frank Ocean album. In In this episode, I’m joined by entertainment and social media lawyer Wynton Yates as we discuss intellectual property, the media and the legal and ethical issues surrounding AI-generated content. We cover topics such as contracts, ownership, copyright, and the potential dangers of generative AI being used for malicious purposes. We also discuss the challenges of developing a system that protects everyone’s rights and gives them an equal voice. (Even how an actual monkey is helping redefine IP!) Be prepared to take notes! Wynton drops some serious knowledge in this one.

Wynton Yates regularly breaks down legal terms for content creators on Tiktok

@lawyerwynton

#fanart and #fanfiction is awesome! Just stay safe out there y’all #lawyerwynton #tiktokattorney #copyrightattorney

♬ Blade Runner 2049 – Synthwave Goose
Wynton sharing his knowledge (for entertainment purposes) on Tiktok

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00:00:00:00 - 00:00:07:24

Karama

Hey, folks, welcome back to THEBLERDGURL PODCAST. I'm Karama horne a.k.a. “theblerdgurl” And today we're going to talk about intellectual property.

00:00:07:23 - 00:00:13:01

Karama

Everybody right now is talking about creative ownership and intellectual property.

00:00:13:00 - 00:00:25:22

Karama

from the Writers Strike and their request for residual rights on streaming content to the air creators out here, reproducing music in the likeness of artists like Frank Ocean and Drake and even the weekend.

00:00:25:23 - 00:00:29:22

Karama

Well, today I'm talking to a real entertainment lawyer about all this.

00:00:29:22 - 00:00:34:12

Karama

Wynton Yates joins me today and he's going to give us details on how creators can protect themselves.

00:00:34:13 - 00:00:45:07

Karama

we talked about so much stuff today, but the discussion about I think is the most important, especially coming from an intellectual property entertainment lawyer.

00:00:45:07 - 00:00:50:03

Karama

I can't wait to share this one with you. But first, let's pay some bills.

00:00:50:03 - 00:01:02:16

Karama

Now, I first found Wynton over on Tik-tok because he's got this incredible channel where he regularly looks at litigation that's happening in entertainment and like breaks it down in layman's terms for the rest of us.

00:01:02:17 - 00:01:07:10

Karama

Yates now has a thriving practice, as get this, a social media lawyer.

00:01:07:09 - 00:01:10:20

Karama

He's representing a lot of people out there doing exactly what we do.

00:01:10:20 - 00:01:14:17

Karama

So up next, my chat with entertainment lawyer Winton Yates.

00:01:14:17 - 00:01:24:19

Wynton

right before we started this podcast, something new kind of clicked. My name is Wynton, and I'm named after the jazz artists Wynton Marsalis.

00:01:24:19 - 00:01:25:24

Karama

Wynton Marsalis Oh wow!

00:01:26:01 - 00:01:48:05

Wynton

So I didn't even just kind of collect that. Like entertainment Arts has been me since I was born because I was born with, you know, an entertainer's name. But then after that, you know, growing up at the age of two, my siblings and I started doing commercials and catalog shoots and movies and all that kind of stuff. I really loved that growing up.

00:01:48:05 - 00:01:59:09

Wynton

And then my best friends and I were doing photography and shooting short films and all kinds of stuff. And then when I did, you know, undergrad, I grew up in Atlanta, Georgia.

00:01:59:15 - 00:02:02:04

Karama

Oh, okay. So yes, you were in the Mecca.

00:02:02:06 - 00:02:20:07

Wynton

Yeah. So we were we were all over the place, just, you know, sneak it into concerts and shoot and concert photography and short films and all kinds of stuff. And then after, you know, after high school ended up going to undergrad at Georgia Southern. And then while I was there, I actually thought I was going to grow up to be a large animal vet.

00:02:20:07 - 00:02:23:01

Wynton

I really wanted to be like the black Steve Irwin.

00:02:23:03 - 00:02:24:13

Karama

Oh my God.

00:02:24:18 - 00:02:55:20

Wynton

But I couldn't pass chemistry. So I actually ended up in the communications department, and the staff over there fell in love with me and they just like handed me a camera and they were like, No, no, no, this is what you're going to do. So I went through that program and then came out and ended up being a television news reporter for several years until, you know, my most recent contract a few years ago came up and I was like, okay, I think it's time for me to go to law school because I always wanted to advocate for my friends who were all

00:02:55:20 - 00:02:56:11

Wynton

creators.

00:02:56:11 - 00:03:12:11

Wynton

In some respect. I just didn't know how I wanted to do that. And then while I was a television news reporter, I actually met an entertainment attorney and it clicked and I was like, That's what I've been looking for. And then that's kind of how I ended up in that path.

00:03:12:11 - 00:03:30:07

Karama

But you also have carried over some of that acting and that entertainment and personality from all the media stuff that you've done, because honestly, you're probably the most media ready lawyer I've ever met, and I'm here for the tie

00:03:30:07 - 00:03:31:08

Karama

pin

00:03:31:12 - 00:03:52:06

Wynton

Oh, my lapel pins? Thanks. Yes. Yes. I love my lapel pins. When I meet other attorneys, they all they're very buttoned up and put together. And I'm like, no, I have like mandalorian pens and like Bob Burgers pens. And it's always a very good opener. It makes it softens people. When you meet them, especially if you have the title of an attorney.

00:03:52:08 - 00:04:21:04

Wynton

Mm hmm. Which I work very hard. Not for that. Not to be my whole personality. Like, Oh, I'm an attorney. So it's a really good way to, like, soften people and have a good entry point because arts and entertainment and TV and movies is something that we all share. Mm hmm. We may not all like the same things, but we all like something, whether it's music, TV, movies, there's some kind of arts and entertainment that we enjoy.

00:04:21:06 - 00:04:36:21

Wynton

So lapel pins is a really easy way for me to kind of figure out who likes what. And it's fun. Like, I meet some attorneys who you would think are not Star Wars fans at all, and they'll see my pain and be like, Is that is that passive bizarre?

00:04:36:23 - 00:04:39:13

Karama

Oh, that's right. This is the way.

00:04:39:17 - 00:04:44:18

Wynton

And then the whole conversation shifts and it's it's fantastic. It's great.

00:04:44:20 - 00:05:10:21

Karama

That is that is amazing. And also, like you said, if somebody in a because most people, if they're finding themselves in court, are probably stressed. So no matter what it is, you're not doing like murder trials. But still it can be stressful situations. So definitely there is definitely a way to. It's an icebreaker. Yes. So one of the things that actually you introduced me to because I didn't know this was that social media law is a thing.

00:05:10:23 - 00:05:18:20

Karama

Yeah. So can you explain a little bit about that concept? And like, can some of these TikTok dancers do? Like what?

00:05:18:22 - 00:05:49:10

Wynton

What can they do? Yeah, actually, specifically with TikTok dances, Tik Tok is actually at the forefront when it comes to copyright and dancing. So we could talk about that in a minute. But like so social media law really falls under the umbrella of just like the broad title of entertainment law. It's such a broad title because it covers everything contract negotiations, brand deals, intellectual property, which is copyright, trademark patents.

00:05:49:16 - 00:06:29:12

Wynton

We're talking about artificial intelligence, which is like this new space that we now have to figure out how we're talking about licensing, whether it's movie licensing is trademark licenses, copyright licenses, music licenses. It covers such like a wide swath of things. But when we're talking about social media and social media influencers, they have specific needs that attorneys that aren't necessarily intellectual property attorneys, they're entertainment attorneys like myself are now figuring out that, okay, these social media influencers are not just, you know, doing dances on Tik Tok and making YouTube videos and all this kind of stuff.

00:06:29:12 - 00:06:32:20

Wynton

This is their livelihood. And they're making users correct.

00:06:32:24 - 00:06:36:03

Karama

They're writing, they're directing, they're creating.

00:06:36:03 - 00:07:04:19

Wynton

Exactly. And then they're also having to deal with contracts and negotiating with brands for brand deals. And they're also having having to protect their copyright and their trademark. So they have to keep their brand protected and they have to deal with licensing and all that stuff. So it is entertainment law, but it is really focused on the needs of social media influencers.

00:07:04:19 - 00:07:12:00

Karama

are you on retainer with any of these TikTok creatives or can you not share your I guess.

00:07:12:02 - 00:07:19:15

Wynton

I can't necessarily tell you exactly who, but I would say the majority of my clients are social media influencers, and I can tell you that

00:07:19:15 - 00:07:36:10

Wynton

probably all of my clients come from directly from being on social media. So I don't do like commercial television commercials or billboards or anything like that. I specifically exist in the place where my clients are, which is social media.

00:07:36:12 - 00:07:55:21

Karama

Yeah. Okay, so let's break down a little bit of some of these things that you're talking about. So you talked about licensing that makes sense. Obviously, appearances and likeness and things like terms like in perpetuity. Kids remember that term and I hate to it. Yeah. You do not want that in a contract.

00:07:55:21 - 00:07:57:13

Wynton

No, never.

00:07:57:15 - 00:08:17:13

Karama

And and I can't get into all the details of this but I did I did get into something where and if you were in my state but I know you're a licensed in New Orleans, I would use you. But I did actually have to call a lawyer to help with a contract situation because someone was I had no problem with the work.

00:08:17:13 - 00:08:46:08

Karama

They were asking for. But then in the fine print of the contracts were was wording like in perpetuity and ownership of my likeness and what the Blur girl was supposed to do. And I was like, Nice try. They're girls trademarks. You can't. Yes, anything in this house is me. Yes. You know. And they were like it was very clear that they were not used to talking to people who either had a lawyer speaking for them or being somebody who even knew how to advocate for themselves.

00:08:46:08 - 00:09:05:23

Karama

And I think that's part of the problem. So let's shed a little light on that. Like if somebody reaches out and says, I would like you to sell my product. Mm hmm. On, you know, whether or not that's usually generated. Well, user generated content usually means you are giving up your image for a short period of time, I'm assuming.

00:09:06:00 - 00:09:35:02

Wynton

Yeah. Those are usually called work for hire situations. I got to clarify real quick. I'm licensed in Louisiana, but because of the nature of entertainment, law and intellectual property, I actually have clients all over the country. Oh, okay. Yeah. Intellectual property is federal law, so it is the same across the board for all states. So if I do have to go to court, I'm practicing in federal court, which is all the states I can actually practice with clients pretty much anywhere.

00:09:35:02 - 00:09:51:06

Wynton

But if I have to go to state court somewhere, I can actually partner with attorneys in that specific state so that they can do all the court stuff in in and I can continue working with the with the client. But when it comes to

00:09:51:06 - 00:09:53:12

Wynton

that, it is a

00:09:53:12 - 00:10:03:05

Wynton

work for hire. Yes. So work for hire is you are going in with a written contract with the understanding that any of the content that you are creating, you are retaining no rights to it.

00:10:03:07 - 00:10:08:20

Wynton

Like you go in understanding that and the only way you can do work for hire is if it's in writing. It can't just be like, Hey,

00:10:08:20 - 00:10:10:17

Wynton

you want to do a work for hire thing for me real quick?

00:10:10:17 - 00:10:14:03

Wynton

It can't be a verbal contract. It's got to be written out.

00:10:14:03 - 00:10:27:02

Karama

if they don't send you a PDF, but if someone says sends you an email outlining the the work that they want you to do and you agree to do that work via email, is that legally binding?

00:10:27:06 - 00:10:37:13

Wynton

It could be. It depends. Like you're going to hear lots of attorneys always say it depends with an email. It depends. It could be. Does it? The question really is, does it fit the

00:10:37:13 - 00:10:45:22

Wynton

legal language of what is a contract? So is there an offer? Is there acceptance? Is there? It has to fit, though. It has to fit in check certain boxes.

00:10:45:22 - 00:10:51:20

Wynton

So if it checks those boxes, then yeah, it could be considered a contract. If it's in an email.

00:10:51:20 - 00:10:52:19

Karama

You just mentioned that

00:10:52:19 - 00:11:05:23

Karama

social media law is federal law, which means you could cover people all over the place, which is a great time to point out that therblerdgurl PATREON is wide open. So please donate so I can afford to work with Wynton.

00:11:05:23 - 00:11:15:21

Karama

What about the music that gets copied in reused and remixed on platforms that were made for that? Like Tik Tok? Like, how does that work?

00:11:15:23 - 00:11:40:13

Wynton

Yeah. So with platforms specifically, they have licenses, licensing deals with the distributors of all these songs. So they'll sign a licensing deal with a big distributor so that they can use all of these different songs on their platform. Now, if you come up with your own original music and it's on TikTok, you put it on TikTok, you're probably going to see it get flagged.

00:11:40:15 - 00:11:44:17

Wynton

You've probably seen people put it up and get the sound removed, but.

00:11:44:19 - 00:11:46:03

Karama

I’ve had my own voice get flagged.

00:11:46:07 - 00:11:52:13

Wynton

Yes, bring it or you'll put something up on YouTube and you'll get a copyright strike and they'll they'll flag it.

00:11:52:13 - 00:11:58:07

Wynton

a while back there was a big push to have these platforms put in place systems that could help

00:11:58:07 - 00:12:07:21

Wynton

recognize copyrighted materials and pull it down so that creators weren't having to run around and police their copyright everywhere.

00:12:07:23 - 00:12:08:13

Wynton

Right.

00:12:08:15 - 00:12:09:08

Karama

Got it.

00:12:09:10 - 00:12:32:12

Wynton

But it is still up to the creators to be active in making sure they are protecting and keeping vigilant on how their content is being used. So with music, there are two copyrights that are born when you make one song. So there's the copyright that protects the underlying composition. So all of the little bits and pieces that are put together to make the song.

00:12:32:14 - 00:12:43:09

Wynton

Mm hmm. That's the underlying lyrics, a melody that has its own copyright. And then you've got the copyright that protects the master recording. So the final outcome and you also often hear artists that are like,

00:12:43:09 - 00:12:54:06

Wynton

give the artists their masters back. Yeah, that's what they're talking about. And in a traditional sense, normally the label is going to own the master and then the artist is

00:12:54:06 - 00:12:59:07

Wynton

either own outright the underlying composition or own a certain percentage of it.

00:12:59:07 - 00:13:08:06

Wynton

And that is how it is determined who gets paid what When there are licensing deals done. We're we're talking about mechanical royalties, all that kind of stuff, right?

00:13:08:06 - 00:13:19:19

Wynton

So if your song does get used by somebody without your authorization, it's copyright infringement. If it is on a platform without your authorization, it's copyright infringement.

00:13:19:19 - 00:13:23:23

Wynton

You have a right to reach out to them and say, Hey, that's mine.

00:13:23:24 - 00:13:33:13

Wynton

You can't use it that way. So yeah, if with music, with visual art, with any other kind of content that is original, that is yours,

00:13:33:13 - 00:13:43:17

Wynton

if somebody is using it in a way that you don't want them to use it, you have a right to step in and say, I don't like this, please stop. That that's a very more forceful way.

00:13:43:17 - 00:13:44:10

Wynton

They please stop.

00:13:44:12 - 00:13:46:09

Karama

Yeah, I mean, that's why we hire lawyers

00:13:46:09 - 00:13:49:10

Karama

But you also mentioned A.I. now A.I.

00:13:49:10 - 00:13:54:23

Karama

when open I really opened the floodgates with ChatGPT last fall we have just you know, now it's everywhere.

00:13:54:23 - 00:14:00:04

Karama

But I would probably say that midjourney and sites like that have been a problem for a minute.

00:14:00:04 - 00:14:04:22

Karama

What is the problem with AI and copyright?

00:14:04:22 - 00:14:14:00

Wynton

So there are two there are two areas for me at least in other IP attorneys and other attorneys in general, there are two areas of problem.

00:14:14:00 - 00:14:18:04

Wynton

there's like a laundry list of legal issues that are born from

00:14:18:04 - 00:14:23:12

Wynton

And then there's the ethical issues coming from what is happening with it, right?

00:14:23:14 - 00:14:34:11

Wynton

So there's like the blanket for me, an IP attorney, there's just like the blanket. This is copyright infringement issue or this is trademark infringement issue or this could be patent

00:14:34:11 - 00:14:35:17

Wynton

infringement, Right.

00:14:35:17 - 00:14:43:18

Wynton

On the other hand, what the ethical side is just watching the way that these platforms refuse to

00:14:43:18 - 00:14:53:07

Wynton

do anything to make these to make it right. First of all, they're not coming out and they're not telling us exactly how these things work. They're just giving us

00:14:53:07 - 00:15:01:12

Wynton

this kind of blanket statement of it goes out and it scrapes the web for images and music.

00:15:01:12 - 00:15:14:09

Wynton

It just goes out and scrapes the web for these things and learns from it. But doesn't doesn't pull it in. That doesn't really tell us anything. What does what is scraping? It's what is what is scraping?

00:15:14:12 - 00:15:21:10

Karama

Well, it's funny that you ask that question because all I could find on this is basically that had like a one sentence description was

00:15:21:10 - 00:15:41:10

Karama

AI can be used for web scraping in a number of ways. One way is by using machine learning to automatically identify and extract data from web pages. This can be done by training a model to recognize patterns of data on a particular page or site, and then using that model to automatically extract the data.

00:15:41:10 - 00:15:44:21

Karama

That's from brandveda, by the way, for anybody who's interested.

00:15:44:21 - 00:15:55:23

Wynton

like even the definition that you gave me is still vague. It's just got a lot of techie language in it of like machine learning. Okay, What what is what is that like?

00:15:55:23 - 00:15:59:13

Wynton

in the law, it is the meanings of the word.

00:15:59:13 - 00:16:28:13

Wynton

We go from the meanings of the exact word. You got to give me words that have real meaning, though those are kind of really fluffy words of telling. It's scraping, it's machine learning, it's going out and it's looking at stuff. Tell me what the process is and what it's pulling in and what the data is, that it's pulling it right Ethically, Are you giving artists the option to be scraped or not to be scraped?

00:16:28:13 - 00:16:54:12

Wynton

ethically you're not giving an artist the chance to say, you know what, I really don't want my art to be a part of teaching your machine how to do what it does. You're not giving these artists the chance to protect their rights in ownership, in their pieces of work. You're just going out and you're doing it, and you know you're doing it without asking them because the CEO of Mid Journey was like at the end of last year

00:16:54:12 - 00:16:56:01

Wynton

did an interview with Forbes.

00:16:56:03 - 00:16:58:16

Wynton

The interviewer asked him several questions about this,

00:16:58:16 - 00:17:00:06

Wynton

he's asked him,

00:17:00:06 - 00:17:29:11

Wynton

where are you getting all of this? He's like, oh, it's like hundreds of millions of images across the Web. And then he at one point asked him, well, are you getting permission from the owners of these pieces of work? And his answer, these are not his exact words, but his answer was basically, no, we really have no way to go out and figure out who owns what and ask them permission, which is kind of a B.S. answer to me, because and that's why we have copyright laws in place.

00:17:29:11 - 00:17:38:13

Karama

Exactly. And I also keep thinking of things like Getty Images and all of these stock footage, places like they figured it out.

00:17:38:15 - 00:18:11:15

Wynton

Yes. And even Getty has come out and said they do not accept any images that are generated by AI., the Copyright Office has come out several times, which is another huge legal issue. The Copyright Office has come out several times and said air generated creative works are ineligible for copyright protection, which means in essence, they are dumped into the public domain and anybody can use them for whatever means they want commercial, personal, whatever.

00:18:11:17 - 00:18:17:11

Wynton

And I can go into a rant about what that means for a lot of other different things in the space.

00:18:17:13 - 00:18:31:24

Karama

Because I thought I was excited when I heard that the USPTO was not like, Hey, we're not accepting this, we're not patenting these and we're not given copyright. I'm like, Yes. And they're like, It's public domain. I'm like, No.

00:18:32:01 - 00:19:03:05

Wynton

Well, they're right because there's nowhere else for it to go. Either it is protected by copyright or it is not. There's no in-between because there's no in-between. There's nothing in between for it to go. If it exists, it has to either be protected and owned or not. Okay. There's no there's no in-between, right. So there is and we've seen these kind of cases before, not particularly with AI, but there was this monkey who actually funny enough, was named Naruto.

00:19:03:07 - 00:19:42:16

Wynton

Oh, wow. Wow. Years and years back there was a photographer, a wildlife photographer who went out into the jungle. The cat monkey got a hold of his camera, took some selfies. Long story short, it ended up in court because he made a book out of them. He was selling them. And that and PETA actually filed a lawsuit on behalf of the monkey Monkey saying that he owned the copyright to those photos and the photographer was violating his rights and it was copyright infringement of the monkeys, copyright the courts came out and said, no,

00:19:42:16 - 00:19:49:01

Wynton

the basis of copyright law, is human authorship.

00:19:49:03 - 00:19:55:11

Wynton

Then these photos did not have any human authorship. Therefore, they're ineligible for copyright protection.

00:19:55:11 - 00:20:15:17

Wynton

The same is said here with artificial intelligence. There is no human authorship. It's code, it's machine. You're telling me it's machine learning and it's a machine generating it. There is no human authorship, therefore it is ineligible for copyright protection and is now in the public domain.

00:20:15:19 - 00:20:22:06

Karama

Wow. Okay. First of all, I'm blown away by the fact that they were defending a monkey for the. Okay.

00:20:22:06 - 00:20:28:00

Wynton

as silly as it is, it actually ended up yielding good case law that we can now use.

00:20:28:00 - 00:20:29:06

Karama

Precedent to get.

00:20:29:08 - 00:20:55:16

Wynton

Stuff like this. Right. But here's one of the big ethical and legal issues that comes from this. Right? So if you're on TikTok, if you're on Instagram, you see the ad generated filters that people can take pictures of themselves and it'll generate them like as a medieval person on Spain, it'll it'll generate all these pictures based on your image and kick it back to you and all these different cool ways.

00:20:55:16 - 00:21:09:00

Wynton

Right. If you think about what we're just talking about, if it is generated by A.I., those images of you are now dumped into the public domain. You're now dumping your image into the public domain.

00:21:09:00 - 00:21:11:23

Karama

I've said this tons of times and people think I'm crazy.

00:21:11:23 - 00:21:29:10

Karama

I'm making this up, but let's say some racist company buys the company out that was making that app, right? And now they have a bunch of black people's images that they turn into all kinds of horrible things, you know, mean, which is not the worst thing that's ever happen to us, but not out of the realm of possibility.

00:21:29:10 - 00:21:33:20

Wynton

So you're actually not you're not you're actually hitting the bullseye with that.

00:21:33:20 - 00:21:38:17

Wynton

there is an African model who has generated.

00:21:38:17 - 00:21:56:20

Wynton

She's not real. Yes. But she was generated by a white man, a white male individual who controls that image. There are ethical issues there of someone controlling a black image in a commercial sense. That is.

00:21:56:20 - 00:21:57:11

Karama

Yes.

00:21:57:13 - 00:22:01:19

Wynton

There are ethical issues there. While this is not a real person.

00:22:01:20 - 00:22:08:15

Karama

Right. The virtual influence, you're saying, No, no, no, no, no. You're absolutely right. There are a few white ones, too. But there is an African model.

00:22:08:15 - 00:22:19:23

Karama

he's making millions of dollars because no one has to sell anything. They are physically just putting the designs on this model and yeah, I know, I know who you're talking about.

00:22:19:23 - 00:22:43:22

Karama

And it's yeah, that also happened with after Matrix four came out with that movie. But Unreal Engine, you know, kind of did a tie in with like, Hey, we're releasing this new Unreal Engine thing. I'm just talking about that. And they put out Unreal Engine for laypeople to use. You could say my boyfriend tried it.

00:22:43:22 - 00:23:01:02

Karama

and was able to create some stuff you could create things in this world. There was a person, an artist that put up some really amazing images of a black woman that a lot of people who don't know what Unreal Engine is thought was real.

00:23:01:02 - 00:23:09:13

Karama

And he was using hashtags like Black Lives Matter and the only reason and changed his Twitter icon.

00:23:09:15 - 00:23:10:01

Wynton

Oh, wow.

00:23:10:02 - 00:23:26:16

Karama

Okay. There was a bunch of us that called him out on digital blackface because there was things that he said that we were like, Yep, you're not black. We don't. You don't. We would never say that. No one said that since 1962, are you even human? And then someone dug it up and realized it was like a white dude that was using this app.

00:23:26:22 - 00:23:29:13

Karama

Yes. I'm like, digital blackface is a problem.

00:23:29:15 - 00:23:46:19

Wynton

It's a thing. And it's it's it's going to get worse as AI develops and a lot of people I've gotten when I talk about AI on social media, I get tons of just like if I get negative feedback from any topic, it is talking about artificial intelligence.

00:23:46:19 - 00:23:50:14

Karama

Oh yeah, they got time or they're bots.

00:23:50:14 - 00:24:30:22

Wynton

but that doesn't mean I'm against it. I think artificial intelligence is a fantastic gateway to giving people access to things that they may not have had access to before, whether it's physical access, mental access to physical capability, access. A.I. is is going to be something that helps a lot of people if we don't ratchet back a little bit and take a look at what we're doing, it is also going to hurt millions and millions of people, and it's going to put a lot of artists and creators out of business.

00:24:30:22 - 00:24:55:04

Wynton

But it's also a huge part of what's going on with the writers strike. And yeah, is right in there. Air is going to put a lot of the things that we love as nerds in jeopardy and the quality of the things that we love as nerds in jeopardy because human authorship.

00:24:55:06 - 00:24:57:18

Wynton

So I'll go on my like, creative rant for a second.

00:24:57:20 - 00:24:58:05

Karama

No, no, no.

00:24:58:05 - 00:25:28:12

Wynton

Please do like, my philosophy as an entertainment attorney is that arts and entertainment is uniquely human. There's nothing else on this planet that can do and develop and create the way that human beings can. I know we see, you know, videos of elephants painting and monkeys taking pictures and all that kind of stuff. But on the level that human beings can do it, nothing else can.

00:25:28:12 - 00:25:58:15

Wynton

And I will argue till I'm blue in the face and dead in the ground, artificial intelligence cannot do it the same way that that humans can do it right. It may be able to generate some very cool things, but human beings and art is so unique, it's it's it's insane the way that we across history have held up arts.

00:25:58:15 - 00:26:26:15

Wynton

It entertainment and valued it is so important. It's one of the few things in human history that spans across human existence from the cavemen that were drawing on the cave walls. Until now, arts has been here with us and a part of us. And what we do. So we should continue to cherish it and continue to cherish the human authorship that goes into creating.

00:26:26:17 - 00:26:37:24

Wynton

Right. I think artificial intelligence, yes. Will be a vital part of that going forward. It's not going anywhere, unfortunately. But we still need to hold on to the human authorship aspect of it.

00:26:38:01 - 00:26:55:15

Karama

We absolutely do. Now, I'm going to take a break here so we can pay some bills. But when we come back, we're going to talk about ho w some people, some real life humans are fighting back against sort of this AIrevolution, both artists and musicians. We'll be right back in a second

00:26:55:15 - 00:27:26:06

Karama

Welcome back to the Blago podcast. I am here with Wynton Yates, Esquire entertainment attorney, and we are knee deep in this conversation about art ownership and the legal ramifications. One of the things I want to talk to you about is just talking about art. I'm just thinking of the artists that filed a class action lawsuit in January against Majani and other eye scraping apps

00:27:26:06 - 00:27:33:03

Karama

these artists, first of all, did they win that court case or is that still ongoing?

00:27:33:05 - 00:27:54:04

Wynton

That is still ongoing. And it is one of, I think, two at the moment. But that kind of highlights the issue with what's going on with artificial intelligence is that all of these questions that we have right now are theoretical because it's unmitigated in a lot of spaces in the law. We can lean on written law, we can lean on case law.

00:27:54:04 - 00:28:08:19

Wynton

We can look at old cases that have already been litigated to pull rules from them. And the way and look at the way that judges in, you know, Supreme Court and appeals courts have ruled on things in the past. But we're looking at something that is new territory. We kind of have to lean on old cases like the

00:28:08:19 - 00:28:17:13

Wynton

Naruto case with the with the monkey to look at how we've looked at things that could be similar in the past.

00:28:17:15 - 00:28:23:00

Wynton

And in this case we are looking at copyright laws

00:28:23:00 - 00:28:43:00

Wynton

that in general did not could not have imagined artificial intelligence at the level that it is right now. Right? Yeah, because when we're talking about intellectual property and we're talking about creative works, we're talking about painters talking about screenwriters, talking about musicians, you name it,

00:28:43:00 - 00:28:44:08

Wynton

we're talking about ownership.

00:28:44:09 - 00:28:50:11

Wynton

Ownership is the core issue for me at least. It's the core issue right?

00:28:50:11 - 00:28:52:18

Wynton

Whoever owns it controls it.

00:28:52:20 - 00:28:54:07

Karama

Right?

00:28:54:09 - 00:29:25:03

Wynton

We're talking about artificial intelligence. They're saying it scrapes, it goes out and scrapes hundreds of millions, images in songs and recordings and all this stuff. Right. So who owns it? Copyright law tells us that the very basic law, before you get into all the exceptions and the rules and all that kind of stuff, is that the original author of the creative work owns the copyright period Hard stop until you get into like joint works and work for hire and all that kind of thing.

00:29:25:03 - 00:29:26:06

Wynton

All the exceptions, of course.

00:29:26:06 - 00:29:38:23

Wynton

When we're talking about artificial intelligence, Right. Is it the person that created the algorithm that is running this machine learning or this scraping? Is it the hundreds of millions of

00:29:38:23 - 00:29:51:21

Wynton

owners of the images that were scraped? Do they all own 1/1000000 of this thing, or is it the person that's typing in the props to generate this this work?

00:29:51:23 - 00:29:52:17

Wynton

Who owns it?

00:29:52:21 - 00:30:17:05

Karama

Well, here's and here's the thing. I if you take a look at how mid journey and all of these things work, even the props have to be very specific to something that has already been created. They can't do just like you. You're you all are trying to create laws or defend laws based on previous laws. Can't draw or come up with something new if they have no reference given to it.

00:30:17:11 - 00:30:44:18

Karama

So I do think there's something to be said about like that particular class action lawsuit. They were going after stable diffusion, mid journey and one other company, I can't remember the name of them, but I did see a comic artist, Kelly McKiernan, who was part of this talk about the fact she and other artists, people were beating specifically to her art and other people's art.

00:30:44:18 - 00:31:13:04

Karama

They weren't just going after a whole bunch of different people. They were saying, I'm giving you all of this person's art draw something like this. And then the sad thing about that is if you want to work with X, Y, or Z artists, you can't afford them. Mm hmm. Then somebody can go go and find a digital artist and say, Listen, I want you to create something like this, you know?

00:31:13:04 - 00:31:32:03

Karama

But I still think the concept belongs to that artist. The other thing that I'm also just talking about doors opening both ways. I think the thing that's also terrifying are pitches like written pitches are the concept art. That is that's the first thing I saw when I saw a lot of the art. I'm like, This all looks like concept art.

00:31:32:03 - 00:31:50:15

Karama

Yeah, and it was because tons of people pitch concept art. And for those of you who don't know, concept art is if you've ever seen an episode of Mandalorian at the end, when the end credits are rolling and you see all the art that's up there that looks like scenes from the show, that is Dave Filoni concept art.

00:31:50:16 - 00:32:12:20

Karama

Sometimes it's other people. It's often him, his concept art of the scenes. So people will pitch or put in tons and tons of concept art that doesn't get used. And then where does it go? What if these sites are paying people for this unused art like that? You know, there's still there's I feel like there needs to be recourse coming and going.

00:32:12:22 - 00:32:18:11

Karama

Like, what is that thing that people sign where they're going to show a script but they don't want it stolen to by the people.

00:32:18:14 - 00:32:20:04

Wynton

In NDA right?

00:32:20:06 - 00:32:31:11

Karama

I mean, there needs to be some type of protection, like an NDA or something for an artist. Now when they when they pitched something so that their stuff just just get fed into a machine.

00:32:31:13 - 00:32:57:10

Wynton

So again, that's part of that's part of what's going on with the writers strike. But also like, yes, you're hitting the nail on the head just as a creator thinking critically of how this could affect you as a creator. You're and all the other people watching this and like the question of ownership, like I was saying, is the core of this, because if you don't own it, then who does?

00:32:57:10 - 00:33:24:15

Wynton

And if nobody owns it, it's in the public domain. And once it's in the public domain, it can be used by anybody for anything which goes to which again, goes to what you were just saying about if you can't afford to work with a specific artist. I it at the stage it is right now for artists creatives across the board AI is devaluing art

00:33:24:15 - 00:33:26:19

Wynton

Yeah because

00:33:26:19 - 00:33:31:22

Wynton

if you want to go and get an artist to paint you,

00:33:31:22 - 00:33:48:02

Wynton

you know, a specific style of painting for your wall and they charge $5,000 for it. Oh, I can't afford that. All right. I'm just going to go generate it type it in, I'm going to get what I want, I'm going to print it out and I'm going to put it on the wall.

00:33:48:02 - 00:33:48:23

Wynton

Done.

00:33:49:00 - 00:33:51:08

Karama

Which is your right until you decide to sell it.

00:33:51:08 - 00:33:54:22

Wynton

Or you can sell it. It's in the public domain. Why not?

00:33:54:24 - 00:33:57:01

Karama

I see what you're saying.

00:33:57:03 - 00:34:13:16

Wynton

So even if you bought the painting from the artist, you could still you could still sell the painting. Now you'd still like if you buy the art from the the painter, you are buying the art. You are not buying the rights.

00:34:13:18 - 00:34:14:05

Karama

Right?

00:34:14:10 - 00:34:39:11

Wynton

You do not own the rights. So either way you still selling Just the painting. It's the same concept with tattoos. So there was the the tattoo artist who did the tattoos for Randy Orton. Mm hmm. Who successfully sued the WWE and Take-Two Interactive. That makes the 2K games. Mm hmm. They made WWE two K, They featured Randy Orton in it.

00:34:39:11 - 00:35:03:16

Wynton

They recreated all of his tattoos. They created his his sleeves, and the tattoo artist filed suit and won because she owned the copyright in those designs that she put on his body. That is that that's probably the second highest wow amount of hate that I've gotten is is telling people about that on Tok. Yes. It's on his skin.

00:35:03:17 - 00:35:14:12

Wynton

Yes. Yes. We have tattoos on our skin. We own the physical tattoo. I do not own the rights in this sleeve. I don't own the rights in it that the artist does.

00:35:14:14 - 00:35:15:17

Karama

Exactly.

00:35:15:19 - 00:35:29:04

Wynton

So in the same way that somebody would license our music or something like that, they were supposed to go to the artists and say, Hey, we want to license your designs for this video game so that we can recreate them in the video game.

00:35:29:06 - 00:35:53:02

Karama

Wow, I'm glad they won. Speaking of music, I want to share this thing that just dropped this week about Frank Ocean. I don't know this and I. I generated Frank Ocean songs sold for thousands of dollars. I'm reading this from Gizmodo, so, Frank, Frank Ocean is elusive on a good day. Like we can't find him on a good day, right?

00:35:53:03 - 00:36:17:04

Karama

So there's a bunch of chats and I remember hearing about these tracks, but I just thought they were, you know, somebody had leaked something from Coachella I didn't know. And so apparently and a lot of other people did too. They were like, Oh, I'm going to get this leak exclusive track. So this guy that calls himself Morning Assassins, he put them up for sale on an Internet music collector's market and discord.

00:36:17:06 - 00:36:49:07

Karama

He offered users and moderators on Discord, the songs in exchange for upwards of $4,000 each, telling everybody that basically he made around. I don't know how much you made. I think it's between 13 and $15,000, so maybe like two or three people bought them. But the point is, it's all fake. But he didn't just sample the music he hired or I'm saying he it might be a C or they they hired a musician to create nine instrumentals that would feature Ocean's vocals, which were in turn created with AI.

00:36:49:07 - 00:37:09:01

Karama

the model used to create those vocal tracks was apparently trained with high quality vocal snippets of the artist's voice. So he pulled Snap. They pulled snippets of Frank Ocean's voice, mixed it with a musician's work, a musician that they actually hired, the music that came out of it sounded so real.

00:37:09:01 - 00:37:29:15

Karama

Everybody thought it was Frank Ocean's actual music. People paid for it until you got caught. So my question is, who catches it? Who gets sued? The guy who masterminded this whole thing, the artist who came in to create the tracks like The Bed of Music,

00:37:29:15 - 00:37:34:24

Karama

the Discord platform or the mod knew like who catches it?

00:37:35:01 - 00:37:40:16

Wynton

Oh, everybody's catching a cease and desist. Everybody's getting is everybody's catching it right.

00:37:40:16 - 00:37:47:20

Wynton

The thought process there is you got to argue your way out of it. Tell the court why you are not a party to this lawsuit.

00:37:47:20 - 00:37:59:16

Wynton

So I'm send it out to everybody, especially the person who created it. Right. So this to me, there's there's so many issues that are coming from this.

00:37:59:18 - 00:38:14:17

Wynton

This one specific case is I'm suing for fraud. I'm suing for misappropriation of name, image and likeness. I'm suing for trademark and I'm selling for copyright. And there's so many legal and ethical issues that arise from this because.

00:38:14:19 - 00:38:17:04

Karama

You get a C&D you get a C&D everybody's.

00:38:17:04 - 00:38:34:00

Wynton

Getting everybody's getting it right. Because if we're just looking at the misappropriation of the name, image and likeness, we're talking about the fact that we all are our own individual selves and we all have the right to license out any aspect of our persona in the way we see fit.

00:38:34:02 - 00:38:34:23

Karama

Mm hmm.

00:38:35:00 - 00:39:05:16

Wynton

And this case you are taking away that right, That ability from Frank Ocean. He did you give him the option to say, yes, you can use my voice to train your your AI to then create something and sell it? No, you just took it. You just took his voice to create something. And then the question is, is the voice that was generated from the AI, is that Frank Ocean's voice, or is that the A.I.?

00:39:05:18 - 00:39:10:22

Wynton

Because the I have generated that voice on its own.

00:39:10:24 - 00:39:15:00

Karama

Right and that and the oh God, when we get into sentience, we.

00:39:15:02 - 00:39:19:23

Wynton

Could, I, I have eventually generated a voice that sounds

00:39:19:23 - 00:39:27:18

Wynton

that close to Frank Ocean. We may never know because it was our it was trained in using Frank Ocean's voice.

00:39:27:20 - 00:39:41:02

Karama

Well, something similar happened with Drake and the weekend. I think you heard about that situation. And I think Universal. Universal is like, shut it down immediately. Like everybody's catching it. They're trying to put everybody in jail. They're like.

00:39:41:02 - 00:40:00:24

Wynton

No, as they should. But then following that, Grimes tweeted out, “Hey, you, anybody can use my voice for A.I. songs make as many as you want. The blanket deal is going to be. I get 50% ownership of whatever you create. I don't care. Go do it”. So you've got artists like that who are on the other side of the fence are like, Yeah, go for it.

00:40:01:01 - 00:40:16:00

Wynton

Cool. But you still have given she has given been given the opportunity to say, Yeah, you can use my voice. This is the deal. Frank Ocean wasn't given that choice. Drake was the weekend, was it? They weren't that choice.

00:40:16:00 - 00:40:32:19

Karama

is that the answer To do what Grimes did and say, Okay, we're going to set up a A.I. music division where artists can get a piece of the music that is created.

00:40:32:19 - 00:40:36:17

Karama

but that they could get a piece like We can't Stop and we can only hope to contain it.

00:40:36:19 - 00:40:43:10

Karama

If you want to protect your voice, you sign up with this particular service. So that and we do find out that somebody uses it.

00:40:43:10 - 00:40:45:01

Karama

we have some recourse.

00:40:45:01 - 00:40:57:07

Karama

So is it something similar like that? It maybe is the answer creating like a Getty Images kind of thing for air where artists can pay to have their stuff use.

00:40:57:09 - 00:41:01:19

Wynton

So I think it depends which is the worst answer possible.

00:41:01:21 - 00:41:02:22

Karama

That's alawyer answer.I got it.

00:41:02:22 - 00:41:26:15

Wynton

I guess it depends because you have to talk to the artists themselves. Some artists are okay with that. Some artists are flat out against it. They don't want their stuff used at all. How do you develop a system that protects everyone and gives everyone an equal voice to say whether or not they want their their stuff used or not?

00:41:26:20 - 00:41:32:06

Wynton

Right? So it's really easy for an artists like Grimes to come out and say, Yeah, you can use my stuff.

00:41:32:06 - 00:41:45:00

Wynton

But the people who don't want their stuff used have not been given that chance. If their stuff has already been used, it's been used and they were never given the opportunity or asked a question.

00:41:45:02 - 00:42:07:02

Wynton

Do you mind if I use your stuff to trade my. I know I don't. That conversation has never happened. Right. So again, it's really easy to be able to say, Yeah, you can use it, I don't care. But it's really hard to be able to say No, you cannot use my stuff, especially at the at the point we are with AI right now because it's it's out there.

00:42:07:03 - 00:42:10:08

Wynton

It's it's getting bigger and faster and stronger every day.

00:42:10:10 - 00:42:22:19

Karama

And it's learning because right now it's right now some of mostly air looks pretty terrible with the seven hands and the jacked up teeth. But did you see that commercial that pizza?

00:42:22:19 - 00:42:24:24

Wynton

Haven't seen the I haven't seen the commercial yet.

00:42:24:24 - 00:42:28:14

Karama

But oh, my God. It's nightmare fuel, but it's learning.

00:42:28:16 - 00:42:30:06

Wynton

And it will eventually.

00:42:30:08 - 00:42:43:12

Karama

Get better. It will get better. And then what makes me nervous is when because it's so hard to tell what's real and what's fake, What happens when that hits politics or government or voting?

00:42:43:14 - 00:43:05:16

Wynton

Well, it already has, right? So one of the big things right now that people are not paying attention to, but, you know, I plan on making some concern about this soon. I just have to do it in a way that Tok is not going to take it down. But two areas, revenge porn and just AI generated porn using someone else's face.

00:43:05:18 - 00:43:05:23

Karama

Yeah.

00:43:06:01 - 00:43:40:16

Wynton

Is about to take off it is about to take off. People are not wanting to hear that. But if you dumped your image into the public domain, someone who is really good at generating a I, it's somebody is going to take one of those images and produce adult content with it. Mm hmm. I can say that with confidence, because the adult industry, the content industry has been around forever.

00:43:40:16 - 00:43:45:20

Wynton

It will never go anywhere. It makes hundreds of trillion dollars a year. It's not going anywhere.

00:43:45:22 - 00:44:10:13

Karama

And also, people don't realize how much of the adult porn industry also has affected the evolution of technology. Mm hmm. Like one of the reasons why TV shows all went to video back in the eighties was because porn was all on video and there was already proof that was a cheaper, faster way to produce a show as opposed to having these gigantic film cameras and all the post-production.

00:44:10:13 - 00:44:13:17

Karama

I remember digital. Digital

00:44:13:17 - 00:44:15:22

Karama

And then the same thing with streaming,

00:44:15:22 - 00:44:38:18

Wynton

It's going to happen and it's going to happen fast. So we need to get things in place and is not me railing against the entertainment industry at all? Because I have clients who this is their content. They they fall into this conversation because they are creating original content that they own. It's covered by the same laws as other original content, copyright, trademark, all that stuff.

00:44:38:18 - 00:44:51:20

Wynton

Right? This is going to affect their jobs, their livelihoods as well, because this is stuff that can be generated quickly, efficiently and on a scale that

00:44:51:20 - 00:44:58:21

Wynton

human authorship, again, cannot keep up with. Is the quality going to be the same? Absolutely not.

00:44:58:21 - 00:45:02:19

Wynton

Are there going to be huge ethical issues? There already are, yes.

00:45:02:19 - 00:45:24:01

Wynton

Especially when we're talking about having access to hundreds of millions of people's images that they have given up inadvertently, unknowingly giving up the rights to protect it. Right. So even if you you say, well, what are they going to do? I had created a picture of myself as a mystical elf.

00:45:24:01 - 00:45:26:10

Wynton

They're going to make mystical elf porn. What do you think?

00:45:26:10 - 00:45:32:18

Karama

Like I had the hardest time trying to explain to my mother that the Pope does not have a puffy white down coat.

00:45:32:20 - 00:45:37:09

Wynton

No, he doesn't. It doesn't. That is the same image. Yes.

00:45:37:11 - 00:45:45:11

Karama

But yes. You know, and that's that's the sad part. I'm just even thinking about, you know, she's older. Think of the elderly who are already scammed into things.

00:45:45:11 - 00:45:56:02

Wynton

There's there's currently the scam going on right now where people are collecting people's voices like they are with Drake the weekend Frank Ocean as we're talking about that.

00:45:56:02 - 00:46:14:18

Wynton

People are collecting people's voices and then using them to scam everyday people. So, yeah, I was just reading a story about a young lady who got a call from her daughter who she thought was her daughter, and her daughter was screaming, Hey, they're going to they're going to they're going to hurt me. They're going to do this. They're going to do this.

00:46:14:18 - 00:46:25:10

Wynton

They want you to send them some money so that they won't hurt me. This lady is hearing her daughter's voice terrified on the phone and all she can think is I need to save my child.

00:46:25:10 - 00:46:33:20

Wynton

It was I. It was not her daughter. Her daughter was safe at school, but she didn't know that because she's hearing her daughter screaming for her life on the phone.

00:46:33:24 - 00:46:35:20

Karama

There's a special place in hell for these people.

00:46:35:20 - 00:46:38:05

Wynton

So that's what I'm saying. Like, AI

00:46:38:05 - 00:46:44:06

Wynton

is a problem right now. It's a problem right now because we don't have any kind of reins

00:46:44:06 - 00:46:49:17

Wynton

to control it. It's just it's it's going in a direction that's going to hurt a lot of people.

00:46:49:17 - 00:46:54:24

Wynton

if we don't put some kind of regulations in place

00:46:54:24 - 00:47:00:22

Wynton

to protect people somewhat, at least.

00:47:00:22 - 00:47:12:08

Karama

I would love for you to come back and share some more thoughts, ideas about this. Thank you so much, Winton, for hanging out. We're going to everybody find you on the interwebs.

00:47:12:12 - 00:47:31:09

Wynton

Yeah. So first you can find me at lawyer went into Ecom. Other than that, you can find me on virtually every social media platform. Just type in lawyer. Winton So TikTok and Instagram are mainly where I hang out. Mainly where I hang out is Tik Tok. But lawyer wins in everywhere. You'll be able to find me.

00:47:31:09 - 00:47:36:01

Wynton

Yeah, no, I'm excited. This is great stuff, but like, I'll close it out with this

00:47:36:01 - 00:47:43:03

Wynton

I'm waiting for somebody face to end up in a video game and they're going to be real pissed off about it because

00:47:43:08 - 00:47:45:09

Karama

probably already happening as we speak.

00:47:45:09 - 00:47:52:18

Karama

Awesome. Thank you so much. I really appreciate your expertise. And yeah, I'm going to go start writing questions for the next time you come by.

00:47:52:18 - 00:48:19:20

Unknown

Well, I hope you all were taking notes because that was an absolutely packed conversation. Please follow Wynton across all of the socials. And if you enjoyed this conversation, please give a like an A subscribe and also subscribe to my YouTube channel. I'm posting the video versions of my podcast there now as well. Now, if you would like to see me produce more content like this more often, please consider contributing to the Blair Girl Patreon and also fill out the podcast survey form there as well.

00:48:19:24 - 00:48:38:19

Unknown

That also helps me get advertising for the show. Don't forget to listen to my horror podcast Pop Paranormal. And if you have your own podcast and are looking to level up, check out my podcast Media kit templates as well. You're going to find links to all this stuff in the show notes. Thanks again, everyone. Thanks so much for listening, everyone.

00:48:38:23 - 00:48:40:01

Unknown

I'll see you next time.

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